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Warning, essentially this post is close to trolling. I say close, because, unlike a real troll, I dont say this because I desire anger, but on the contrary to vent off MY anger.
I have really little will to go into detail, but I HAVE to say this, this one time. Then I will not say it again.
I am neither a hateboi or a fanboi of any game - its only games and hobby and spare time fun.
But I have never, ever seen such a dam hive of mmo-bigots and game-zealots than in the Vanguard forum (not here, the official one). Really. I don't know if there is a record to break for the most hardcorish player or what, or if Vanguard is a part of Mr Bush's War of Terror or what the <explicative>, that every <explicative> feature to make a game more accessible, like journal, like map, like any other <explicative> game standart for 10+ year is supposed to be turned back to computer stone age!
Dammit, I played games when we had DOS, 640kb to juggle and 500 boot disks, when I wrote 50 handdrawn maps on chequered paper per game and wrote down any friggin comment, quest and hint down on pager! I was there! It were good that days but I dont want the heck to turn the wheel back until we go to 1980 text adventures, because they were the <explicative> most hardcore! I am just sick of 15 yo male teenage boasting, if you need to proof ya so hard go the heck to a fight club and dont bother us who want to make a fun and enjoying game.
Thanks for your cooperation.
PS: Sorry, naturally YOU werent meant.
People don't ask questions to get answers - they ask questions to show how smart they are. - Dogbert
Comments
What is ironic here is that both the hardcore and the casual players will be sadly dissapointed when they finally wake up and realize that Vanguard's design caters to all play styles. As more information is released like Vanguard's dynamic death penalty and vanguards lack of emphasis on raiding for endgame loot it becomes mroe evident the game is being tailored to appease all paly styles, hardcore casual, core, soloers, crafters, raiders, questers, groupers and even WoW players.
The vocal minority will always scream the loudest when they don't get what they want. The hardcore, anti-technolgy and anti-WoW people will most likely be sadly dissapointed and scream to high heaven just as the anti-pve, anti-soe and anti-hardcore people scream so loudly now on these boards when they spread thier lies and misinterpretations.
Hopefully the rest of us will find a game we can play and enjoy.
Well said. I know there are a lot of reasonable people. Alas on many official game boards extremists of whatever side gained the upper hand, and I hate extremists, no matter what side.
Ppl who blindly love/hate WOW, SOE or whatever. Some forums just turned into a nightmare and I can't recall any game forum with more game bigots acting more aggressive than in VSoH. I dont know if thats a minority I know they control the official forum atm. There is zero respect some ppl have not endless time or dont want ultira hardcore and they (we, because I belong) are attacked to no end. It is totally out of hand and some will applaud to ANYTHING if it goes against the norm.
They want things diffrent for the mere sake to claim to play something not mainstream!
There are many reasonable ppl on this forum however on both sides, wish there were more on other places too.
People don't ask questions to get answers - they ask questions to show how smart they are. - Dogbert
__________________________
"Its sad when people use religion to feel superior, its even worse to see people using a video game to do it."
--Arcken
"...when it comes to pimping EVE I have little restraints."
--Hellmar, CEO of CCP.
"It's like they took a gun, put it to their nugget sack and pulled the trigger over and over again, each time telling us how great it was that they were shooting themselves in the balls."
--Exar_Kun on SWG's NGE
You are right.
These guys cry, as soon as someone seem to escape their grasp. I just PROPOSE a non-raiding server. I was THREATEN, I was INSULTED, they start JUSTIFYING the raiding server (I never attack their right to existance or suggest anything harmful), they tell me to GO AWAY, I was INSULTED more...
The peoples on these forums are disconnected from reality and they have a personnal agenda, and anything crossing this agenda is to be fought with every once of will they have.
See, for these players, if there can be 50k players on a few raiding servers or 500k players but only 20k on the raiding servers, they will clearly fight it, so that the game has more raiders, at the expanse of everything else, including the game overall health. See, even if 480k players on the grouping server would bring more income than 30k in the raiding, which would mean more raiding, this isn't enough for them.
See, SoE did pay airtickets and read their official forums for years. These players are spoiled and disconnected, thinking they are royalty. Devs should stop listening to them and alloited them a few social workers, would be better for everyone. Listening to these players will result in more harm than goodwill for the game. Devs should take it from afar, know that a minority of players want this type of stuff and make them a happy ground, but they should always remember the basic fact that these players...they are a tiny minority. Average player doesn't even bother to read the instructions, even less a forum. (yes, I do both, I am part of another minority, yet I try to understand the majority, unlike them who think that the majority are peasants).
- "If I understand you well, you are telling me until next time. " - Ren
Nah. The EVEangelists are not trying to twist the game and the devs in their ways. Maybe in 8 years, but not now. These forums are crowded with peoples who are "EQ-ist", they have been "starving" for years for something new, unable to see that they brought what they despite inside EQ. "They ruin their own land" would definitely apply to these players.
EVEangelists will usually tell me something like: "U sux Carebear". I can smile and just go away. Vanbois, they try to tell me that I will love been abused over and over again. Really, I rather talk with the EVEangelists.
- "If I understand you well, you are telling me until next time. " - Ren
i know there are alot of trolls over there on the OVF but you have to remember that there are over 100k subscribers on that forum...ofcource there will be attention whoring trolls there.
Anofalye, yes you had a few trolls attack you in your topic you made, but you also had just as many well thought out replies...actually more, but I'm sure you didn't read any of them.
See, this is where you are wrong. This is where you are "leaning" toward trollish, without been a troll. See, like we often say in a D&D game, Chaotic Neutral alignement with evil tendancies. You have troll tendancies, but you are not a troll. A circle of protection against trolls will be of no use with someone like you, despite your trollish tendancies.
See, 80% of the replies where "trolliers" than your, you seem perfectly rational back there, compared to other. But it doesn't change the fact that you have troll tendancies...so if folks are trollier than someone with trollish tendancies, they are most likely to be trolls (not necessary however, might also be define as troll tendancies for some, yet heavier, but still only tendancies).
However, many of the "well though" replies where in fact just defending the raiding server and trashing the idea if you read a little deeper. But there was a FEW good replies. Chee EE (who turn out to be Eeoulo and not Cheewee was a good example, even if he disagree with me, he was himself a chanter for the 2nd guild on our server, yet he lost interest and was often in the shadows of others(not me, he was more raid-oriented than me)) Even some peoples who disagree have good replies, yet they see no problem with non-raiding server as far as they are concerned. Someone seeing a problem is automatically a troll, as whatever happen on another server isn't affecting their server. A non-raiding server in a "group focused game" deserve the BEST grouping tools. Nobody sane can disagree on that (with the exception of the Premium maybe).
I read each and everyone of these replies at least twice. I answer only those that I want to, I can't honestly be answering each reply.
I did read after I left, and the peoples just confirm that leaving them was the good thing to do. Peoples distort what I said, for example, someone say that for me a raider having on par gear with a grouper was a problem for me, which in fact never was, never will be a problem. As long as the groupers have the BEST tools for grouping (all of them), I don't care if there are alternative ways to get them, as long as grouping remain the "best and ideal" way to achieve it. I don't mind also if some items have to be earned through tradeskill in this topic, I can deal with that mistake even if it would be better to have a grouping-alternative, I can live with tradeskills enforcement, just not raiding enforcement. But no, these peoples distorts.
And if for a moment you think I spend a LOT of time on Vanguard...you have no idea of how much time I use to spend on EQ. I just watch at my emails...and I was astounished at the amount of feedbacks I did send verant ways, despite the fact I was missing about half (used of more than 1 email box)...I was always believing in this team...now is the bottom-level of my belief, it is fading, still fading...yet...I still hope...a little.
- "If I understand you well, you are telling me until next time. " - Ren
What is ironic here is that both the hardcore and the casual players will be sadly dissapointed when they finally wake up and realize that Vanguard's design caters to all play styles. As more information is released like Vanguard's dynamic death penalty and vanguards lack of emphasis on raiding for endgame loot it becomes mroe evident the game is being tailored to appease all paly styles, hardcore casual, core, soloers, crafters, raiders, questers, groupers and even WoW players.
The vocal minority will always scream the loudest when they don't get what they want. The hardcore, anti-technolgy and anti-WoW people will most likely be sadly dissapointed and scream to high heaven just as the anti-pve, anti-soe and anti-hardcore people scream so loudly now on these boards when they spread thier lies and misinterpretations.
Hopefully the rest of us will find a game we can play and enjoy.
I like to think of myself as hardcore in some of my views, such as I don't like it when games pamper to the groans of the 'WoW generation' (just a seemingly favoured expression that holds some weight - not targeting) when someone says that players will have to work for their purchased items; they won't be able to just search.
I want Vanguard to retain it's hardcore image of travel sinks, demanding death penalties and a realistic gameworld. I want crafting to be time consuming and players who don't put their heart into it to be punished, I want not one single sign of a search engine incorporated into the economy of Telon, I want decent gear to be hard to come by and be found deep in very hard dungeons (group dungeons) as well as be augmented by crafting, I want death to mean something and...well I could go on.
More and more I get the feeling that every new idea that Sigil come up with then there are people there to say 'oh don't do that, it's tedious and a timesink' and Sigil begin to think to lessen it a bit. There was so much complaining when Brad first mentioned his ideas for a searchless economy that he briefly relnted and said he would review the situation later. I don't think he would even entertain the idea in a perfect world.
I don't want to sound like a bigot, I want everyone that ahs expressed an interest inVanguard to enjoy it. Point everyone has to remember is that Vanguard came about with a desire to appeal to those that wanted EQ as it was. Not a game that pampers and mollycoddles you through 50 levels.
I don't mind little UI windows like maps and journals; I just want to be tested in the gameplay. Saying that, though, I don't want a super-detailed map that lists everything nearby to extraordinary detail, this is the middle-ages not the computer age. A map that pinpoints where ona continent you are, at low detail, suits me and should suit anyone who was drawn to Vanguard by what is calls itself in the FAQ (I don't think The Vision has changed hugely from what it first was).
Not everyone is represented by a few on the OVF. There are a lot of newcomers that seem to like nothing better than an argument for the sake of it. I think tehse are the ones that Elikal refers to. You can't judge a forum by a minority. Like Zippy says this forum has its select few who do their utmost to spread lies about Vanguard. They are a minority amongst fans eager for the game to arrive.
I will finsih to say that I have seen the OVF change quite a bit since I joined it. I joined back in early 2005 and the forums were, honestly, a different place. Yes there were members who would dash an idea for going against the hardcore Vanguard idea, but they weren't always as ruthless as the modern bunch (may call them the 06ers). There has been a huge increase in numbers since the end of 2005 and that has exerted itself on the boards. Numbers always makes the distatseful element stand out. Many of the old guard will call themselves hardcore, I am sure of it, but then i think Vanguard will still be hardcore, bearing many comparisons to the complexity of EQ and being a long, long way from WoW.
I don't wish to alienate myself with what I have said but it is how I feel about Vanguard. I signed up to the forums with a huge amount of anticipation of a game that would finally test me like EQ had, and more even. I honestly feel that I have slowly seen that serious complexity dwindle a little; mostly to curry favour for the less wanting of difficulty. So far I haven't worried to the extent I am losing faith. Go too mainstream and I might.
I like to think of myself as hardcore in some of my views, such as I don't like it when games pamper to the groans of the 'WoW generation' (just a seemingly favoured expression that holds some weight - not targeting) when someone says that players will have to work for their purchased items; they won't be able to just search.
I want Vanguard to retain it's hardcore image of travel sinks, demanding death penalties and a realistic gameworld. I want crafting to be time consuming and players who don't put their heart into it to be punished, I want not one single sign of a search engine incorporated into the economy of Telon, I want decent gear to be hard to come by and be found deep in very hard dungeons (group dungeons) as well as be augmented by crafting, I want death to mean something and...well I could go on.
More and more I get the feeling that every new idea that Sigil come up with then there are people there to say 'oh don't do that, it's tedious and a timesink' and Sigil begin to think to lessen it a bit. There was so much complaining when Brad first mentioned his ideas for a searchless economy that he briefly relnted and said he would review the situation later. I don't think he would even entertain the idea in a perfect world.
I don't want to sound like a bigot, I want everyone that ahs expressed an interest inVanguard to enjoy it. Point everyone has to remember is that Vanguard came about with a desire to appeal to those that wanted EQ as it was. Not a game that pampers and mollycoddles you through 50 levels.
I don't mind little UI windows like maps and journals; I just want to be tested in the gameplay. Saying that, though, I don't want a super-detailed map that lists everything nearby to extraordinary detail, this is the middle-ages not the computer age. A map that pinpoints where ona continent you are, at low detail, suits me and should suit anyone who was drawn to Vanguard by what is calls itself in the FAQ (I don't think The Vision has changed hugely from what it first was).
Not everyone is represented by a few on the OVF. There are a lot of newcomers that seem to like nothing better than an argument for the sake of it. I think tehse are the ones that Elikal refers to. You can't judge a forum by a minority. Like Zippy says this forum has its select few who do their utmost to spread lies about Vanguard. They are a minority amongst fans eager for the game to arrive.
I will finsih to say that I have seen the OVF change quite a bit since I joined it. I joined back in early 2005 and the forums were, honestly, a different place. Yes there were members who would dash an idea for going against the hardcore Vanguard idea, but they weren't always as ruthless as the modern bunch (may call them the 06ers). There has been a huge increase in numbers since the end of 2005 and that has exerted itself on the boards. Numbers always makes the distatseful element stand out. Many of the old guard will call themselves hardcore, I am sure of it, but then i think Vanguard will still be hardcore, bearing many comparisons to the complexity of EQ and being a long, long way from WoW.
I don't wish to alienate myself with what I have said but it is how I feel about Vanguard. I signed up to the forums with a huge amount of anticipation of a game that would finally test me like EQ had, and more even. I honestly feel that I have slowly seen that serious complexity dwindle a little; mostly to curry favour for the less wanting of difficulty. So far I haven't worried to the extent I am losing faith. Go too mainstream and I might.
.
Warning, essentially this post is close to trolling. I say close, because, unlike a real troll, I dont say this because I desire anger, but on the contrary to vent off MY anger.
I have really little will to go into detail, but I HAVE to say this, this one time. Then I will not say it again.
I am neither a hateboi or a fanboi of any game - its only games and hobby and spare time fun.
But I have never, ever seen such a dam hive of mmo-bigots and game-zealots than in the Vanguard forum (not here, the official one). Really. I don't know if there is a record to break for the most hardcorish player or what, or if Vanguard is a part of Mr Bush's War of Terror or what the <explicative>, that every <explicative> feature to make a game more accessible, like journal, like map, like any other <explicative> game standart for 10+ year is supposed to be turned back to computer stone age!
Dammit, I played games when we had DOS, 640kb to juggle and 500 boot disks, when I wrote 50 handdrawn maps on chequered paper per game and wrote down any friggin comment, quest and hint down on pager! I was there! It were good that days but I dont want the heck to turn the wheel back until we go to 1980 text adventures, because they were the <explicative> most hardcore! I am just sick of 15 yo male teenage boasting, if you need to proof ya so hard go the heck to a fight club and dont bother us who want to make a fun and enjoying game.
Thanks for your cooperation.
PS: Sorry, naturally YOU werent meant.
Of course you are a 'real troll'... Don't be absurd. There are other games that will offer you the game experience you are chasing (easy, spoon fed, casual etc), so what other reason have you to be posting like this about a game that obviously has a different philosophy? What have you to gain here except to troll? A rose by any other name..?
This is a win/ win situation for you eh? To make a stupid sweeping statement like 'everyone is a fan zealot' or whatever...
If we defend ourselves, then we are 'fan zealots' right? and if we don't, you have free run of the boards to spew your hateboi (and yes, this is what your are, no matter what you claim) nonsense. Calm responses that make valid logical and emotional points to the hateboi are ignored because they don't fit in with your perspective, while the more extreme ones are offered up as representitive of the entire community... It's so tragic that people want to destroy a game this badly that hasnt even been released yet... Some people out there must really be scared eh?
The VG fan has nowhere to go against this kind of popaganda. What company was it you worked for again? Honestly?
This post is to vent your anger? Why are you so angry anyhow? What does it really matter? It sounds like you have the issue to me... Projection?
Not everyone at the official boards are 'perfect' by a long shot, but If people sometimes react with passion then thats just because they actually care. Remember that feeling? To actually care about a game, rather then existing to destroy a game (directly or indirectly by slandering the vast majority of it's followers) you will probably never play? It's easy to attack people that care about something, because you know you will always get a reaction.
Compared to other games communities, VG's is really ok. Anyone can go there themselves and see. Sure, you can pick out a few selected posts to prove your 'point' of the community being horrible I guess, and I would expect nothing else from the hateboi, but the people who want to play will still play, and those that don't still won't.
The only time anything really kicks off is when generic_flamer_1846443 goes there to start a fight.
Like you have done here.
Who was the problem again? In your opinion?
I will add, because I just thought of it, if you go to the WoW forums you'll see a much great depth of bigotry and slamming of ideas than you will see at any time at the OVF. It comes with numbers.
.
People don't ask questions to get answers - they ask questions to show how smart they are. - Dogbert
BTW Holifeet, I apologise for the angst if thats how it came across, but thats just my writing style I guess, and has nothing to do with VG 'losing it's sheen'. The sheen is very much intact... In fact, it just gets sheenier the more I see
It's one thing to like and enjoy a game, but when you treat it like a religion almost. There is a serious problem.
In War - Victory.
In Peace - Vigilance.
In Death - Sacrifice.
Enter the Vanguard Inquisitors...
As the educated part of humanity can see, those are methods of the Inquisition. You start to turn every single word around until you proof me a heretic and your opinion Sacred Codex. There is no way to waste more time if you dont answer to my points, but bite at semantics.
And yes you ARE lost, because your entire way of thinking is black/white, there is only "we" and "they", and that entire moralism is alien to me.
People don't ask questions to get answers - they ask questions to show how smart they are. - Dogbert
huh? you are saying i have troll like tendencies when you are the king of derailing every topic with your anti raiding argument?
ill be honest, your posts as of late of come off as extremely hypacritical....if you truly do read and consider every post that rivals your argument then fine, but it sure as heck don't seem like it.
frankly you seem no different than alot of those trolls over there at the OVF other than the fact that you post in a more civilized manner.
do you not think derailing countless threads with the same topic is trolling in it self? you seem to be hell bent on your ideas of anti-raiding just like they are hell bent on the ideas of "the vision".
the only differences is like i said you do it in a non insulting more civilized way, but it don't mean your not trolling. but w/e you can think i have troll like tendencies, you are probably right with that.
but you might want to look in the mirror before being so quick to call other people out for trolling.
and last thing....i already made my point that the vanguard forum is huge with over 100k registered, ofcource there are trolls and ofcource the vocal minority will attack your post...you knew that they would.
generalizing the vanguard fanbase because of that is highly inaccurate and just because a few trolls told you to go away doesn't mean the entire vanguard fanbase feels that way.
i also guarantee you those trolls will not survive in a game like vanguard if they are going to act like that, most those idiots are ex wow players that never played eq and have no clue what a good community is about.
and when they find out with the strong emphasis on player interdependence that when they act like that they will just be hurting themselves.
i believe the real vanguard ingame community will be nothing like that, except maybe the pvp servers witch you have the choice of joining.
But don't you understand that there are a great deal of people out there that have wanted these tougher settings in Vanguard for a lot longer than the mass audience has been following the game?
Why demand different servers with easier death penalties and simple travel methods? Why should Sigil be left with extra work that puts the game back even further?
Vanguard is a certain game with certain gameplay methods. Accept those methods because that siw hat Vanguard is. Did we, who want the game to be harder, join up to WoW and ask them to make different servers with a harder ruleset? No we accepted the game for what it was, a simpler game...we didn't insist it was changed to meet our playstyles, we just decided not to play. We have waited a long time for a game that challenges only to be met by a whole contingent of fans of the newer generation of MMOs that want everything on a silver platter.
A few other points:
a) If a server has a search function for vendors you can not tell somone not to use it if they do not like it. That person is then at a disadvantage against other players. As much as I like challenge in a game that is going too far. Accept it, try it. Everyone is coming out with comments that it will be like searching for hours to find what you want. What do you base this assumption on? If you haven't played the game how do you know you will have to search for hours?
b) You want a softer death penalty or no death penalty. I'm sorry, I am loathe to saying this, but it is apt. 'Play WoW'. Vanguard has been designed and concieved with the idea of having a challenging death penalty, why should that idea be squandered? Death should be punished or it ebcomes meaningless. When death is meaningless then people do what they like. The game stops being a challenge and becomes a rush through to level 50 with no care, whatsoever, for your character or his/her possessions.
c) You sugegst that players don't lose anything from not using certain tools in the game. They do. They lose pace with the players that are using those tools (see my comment above).
Ever been in a group within a game that ahs a tool you don't like so you don't use? Ever been in a game that ahs an expansion you don't like so you didn't buy? Ever been in a group where people ask 'why' and make you feel like you are not providing all you can by doing so. That will happen a lot if Sigil follow the 'don't use a tool if you don't want to' path.
d) Permadeath is a contentious issue amongst even the most hardcore of fans. It is generaly thought it is one thing that does require a specialist server.
e) I'll quote you here:
"It's as you were a Vegetarian. If you decide not to eat beef, fine.
Thats a part of our Free World. But if you tell me no one must eat
meat, I humbly object. Offer everything and let the players decide,
that is what liberty and the freedom of choice logically is based on. I
dont deny you to play in hardcore way, you can chose to do so, but I
ask you to respect the way of my choice just in the same way."
Isn't that what you are doing? You want a game that is less demanding on your playstyle. Vanguard has been conceieved, from day 1, as a game that is the opposie to that; a game that is challenging and rewards for hard work and time consumed. You are trying to imprint your playstyle on Vanguard by asking for rulesets to be changed or differents ervers to be provided.
The hardcore element are not and nor do they try to say you can't play a game your way; they merely say they do not want to. Many of us are happy for you to play a game that is less challenging but do not try and make Vanguard that game...it is a different game.
And I am actually a vegetarian...I have never once tried to make other people a veggetarian...it is quite the opposite actually. Everyday I have people asking me why I don't eat meat and suggesting I would be better off doing so. You are that person suggesting that I eat meat. You are the fan that is suggesting that vanguard change its entire makeup to be an easier game with less of a taxing playstyle. I am sorry to say this, and I mean no insult, but you are.
f) And I respect your desire for a less demanding game. However you must respect the fact that Vanguard has never had any intent to be that game. There are a lot of new games arriving on the market and many of them are aimed at a more casual audience that prefer the fast paced style of gaming that has come about post-EQ. There is very little room in the genre, now, for the type of games that EQ was (and to some extent DAOC and SWG etc). Why must the one game that does follow that path; Vanguard, be turned to follow the alternative path?
I am not saying don't play Vanguard. I want you to play Vanguard. I want you to enjoy Vanguard. I don't want you to assume that Vanguard must attune itself to your playstyle choices. It doesn't have to...it is you that must attune yourself to Vanguard's style of play.
Again I quote you:
"I want to make my own choices, and see the choices of others. I dont
need someone to decide for me, no matter how good the intent. All we
love and stand for in our western culture is essetially based on those
values, so I dont understand how anyone can not accept them, unless he
comes from an authotarian part of this world."
But don't you understand that by the mere fact that Sigil are making a game they are deciding for you. It is up to Sigil how that game is made, how hard it is, how the death penalty works, how much of a sink travel is to be etc etc. It is not for you to tell them how their game should be. Western culture is based upon freedom; a freedom to make what people want to make not what is most popular. Society always needs niches otherwise everything becomes the same and life is stale. All games could be like WoW, or DAoC, or D&D. If they were then MMORPGs would get stale.
Vanguard is a different game. Please accept it. Like it for what it is and what it has always been aimed at being.
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The problem with having a quaility discussion about this game is all the pigeonholes people are put into. Folks start reading a post and they are just skimming to see if you are casual or hardcore, PvE or PvP, raider or non-raider, pro or anti Vanguard, etc.
As soon as they decide what category to put you in they either can't or don't read what you say. You are just assumed to hold the opinions they attribute to people in those categories and they respond with the same stock replies. So, for example, if you are deemed a casual player you want an easy game with everything handed to you and no matter how many times you say that's not what you want, they won't listen because they already have you pigeonholed. Likewise, if you say you like to raid you are some uber jerk who just wants to lord what you have over everyone else and no matter how many times you say no, you just like large group encounters no one is really listening. It completely defeats any meaningful discussion.
I have been trying for many months to get a point across and I can't do it because people won't put aside their predispositions for even 5 minutes, long enough to entertain the possibility that there is anything new to be said. Or, even if it isn't new, that players don't fit as neatly into these pigeonholes as many folks would like to think.
My problem isn't primarily with casual versus hardcore. There is a place for both in most mmos. My problem isn't primarily with solo or group or raids. There is room for all in most mmos. My problem is with hierarchical lines of player power being drawn in such a draconian fashion that there are groups who won't enjoy the game because the game design ensures they are so weak that they won't have any fun. In EQ you could be a casual soloer or small group encounter player and you could still have fun. The same was true in every other major title I have played. But it is so damned important to Brad McQuaid that his "bleeding edge" players be radically more powerful in Vanguard than everyone else that he has relegated the other players to peon status. He seems to believe that his preferred players won't have enough fun unless other players are miserable. That is the essential flaw in Vanguard - the fact that the Vision is mean spirited.
I don't mind that some other player with some other playstyle has better goodies. I frankly could care less what they do or what they have (though I will, if pressed, dispute their claim to entitlement to it because I dispute that what they do is harder or more meritorious than what other people do). Still, I can live with that. What I won't live with is a game structure where your choice of playstyle can render you gimped and ineligible for other content, even if you decided to give it a try. In Vanguard if you mostly solo then you had better (a) be ready for rough, frustrating and boring sledding and (b) get used to it because you won't have the gear you need for group play, much less raid play. All of that is to be sure we have a medieval caste system where players are divided up into status ranks because nothing, and I mean nothing, is more important to Brad than making sure we are always conscious of who is better than whom.
Someone once said that even in a world in which the lion lays down with the lamb, the United States still needs to be the lion. Substitute "uber guild" for United States and you have Brad's first rule of game design - make sure that you have pimps and gimps. Then make sure no one can forget it.
EQ1, EQ2, SWG, SWTOR, GW, GW2 CoH, CoV, FFXI, WoW, CO, War,TSW and a slew of free trials and beta tests
This thread has been reported, but Im not going to take any action at this time. Please stay on topic EVERYONE. Remember this area is about VSoH not about each other.
Focus People
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"MMOs, for people that like think chatting is like a skill or something, rotflol"
http://purepwnage.com
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"Far away across the field, the tolling of the iron bell, calls the faithful to their knees. To hear the softly spoken magic spell" Pink Floyd-Dark Side of the Moon
I'm not saying that Vanguard will tank. I'm saying that what one expects of something and what one experiences are two different things. Since inferno's are rampant around this place, it'll be interesting watching the tune change.
D
Hm, likely you are right. I havent seen a MMO who was 100% as it was said before release, and that includes my own expectations nautrally. Maybe I find out corpse run is much less of a nuisance. I am willing to learn, but from what I can think of now I voice my doubts.
I think all MMOs evolve over time into one or another direction. No MMO has stayed as it is, no matter WHAT direction it went.
People don't ask questions to get answers - they ask questions to show how smart they are. - Dogbert
To be perfectly honest I'm not so sure what to think of this game anymore. I can't seperate my disdain and disappointment with the evolution of this genre as a whole with the direction VG is going from my own disappointment with beta.
I have, what I consider, empirical evidence VG has pigeon holed itself into catering to a very specific subset of hte gaming community (Brad's desire to keep Fires of Heaven happy for example).
I have, what I consider, evidence that the VG marketing scheme is becoming quite SOE'ish with this whole beta fiasco. CGM beta invites was a mistake and blow a lot of crediability.
I have, what I consider, evidence that the VG forum community has a disporportionate number of elitest idiots who think they have wisdom because they can form big words. I'm not sure what these guys are smoking, where the come from, or what they do (to have time to shoot down so many differnet people) but they really add fuel to the fire of discord mounting for this game.
Notice I haven't talked about the game play yet.........which from all I've seen from the public domain, is lackluster. The game itself has eq 2.5 written all over it with the performance issues to boot.
VG is a good example of why dev's should stay the hell away from other forums as much as possible. We have the father of the most Elietest game in history (EVerquest) attracting a whole crew of eliest style thinkers that basically pigeon holes everything into black and white.
Frankly, I think the hype meter for this game on mmorpg is quite accurate and deserves a low ranking....of course I've been waiting for a beta invite for 2 years too while my friends waited 2 days after purchasing a magazine.
I totally agree with the OP. I haven't posted on the game forums since about the first month they were up. The community for this game is going to be a mess.
As far as EVEangelists... NOT EVEN CLOSE! but bad.
Make a difference!
I don't think Vanguards boards are any better or worse than any other NON released MMORPG. Its pretty standard for more fanbois than critics to use their time to post on a board for a game that is not released. Unfortunatly, in my experience this even carries over to the beta boards where intelligent critisism would actually be a very good thing. Of course when the game comes out and people actually get to live what people were discussing on the board, these same fanbois often become the games worse critics.
To me Vanguard is a mixxed bag, I see some very nice things, but the EQ1 like harshness of the world makes me hesitate. I am sure that there will be a base population that will revel in the harshness but will that number be enough to support a modern game with modern expenses ? Time will tell.