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Beware the spiteful Macro Miner
BaronJuJu
Member UncommonPosts: 1,832
Just a warning to folks out there. I don't understand how CCP can allow this to happen. If macro miners see they can get folks off their back and spend a few bucks on a throw away EBay account to do what they did to this guy, then no one will go after macro miners and the mining situations will be even worse.
Anyway, on to the incident....
"So yesterday i log into EVE as usual, barely glance at the loading screen as usual, try to sell the bistot i'd, er, "acquired" from a macro-miner in 0.0 the day before and....
"You cannot sell this as placing a sell order requires a minimum balance of 0.00 ISK"
WTF?
I check my bank balance.
-318,000,000 (approx) 
I check the detailed transactions and there we have it.
-500 million. GM reversed Player Donation from smsnsnsnsmsns667
I file a petition, doubletime.
30 minutes later i get the response that i have been fined and warned for buying ebay ISK and basically, i should think myself lucky to still have an account at all.
I petition back, saying i've never bought ebay'd ISK and can i have my money back, please? I don't want or need the 500mill this lunatic is sending around, i just want my 182mill balance back.
The response is polite, quick and efficient but it boils down to "f*** you".
I am hurt and confused but also pretty impressed. EVE's CS don't piss about.
I start looking for ways to dig myself out of this hole.
I can't sell minerals. In fact, i can't sell anything. I can't buy new skills (and i need Weapon Upgrades, Assault Ships and Heavy Assault Ships because after consultation with EN, i have a super-gorgeous Vagabond sat in my hangar in Niyabainen waiting for her maiden flight).
I log in my alt (he's the one who sent you your float, Gith) and attempt to send money to my main. This works, but my alt is a newb so he doesn't have much. I clean him out and get my main's debt down to 233million.
I try a player to player trade from my alt. Well, i'm thinking, i can at least buy skills with the alt and trade them to my main, right? No dice. Requires a 0.00 ISK balance. I start to wonder exactly what i can do. I flip out to an asteroid belt in 0.6 space and zap a couple of rats. This works but there's a problem - the bounties are tiny, i use ammunition, i'm shit in combat because i have always trained toward speed and stealth.
If i go for big rats, i'll die and that'll cost me. If i go for small rats, i'll run out of ammo without even approaching raising enough funds.
It dawns on me that i have almost 400mill worth of 0.0 minerals sat waiting to be refined in my hanger and that these are the proceeds of podding a macro-miner.
I check my EVEmail.
I have a mail from the miner. It says:
"Revenge costs $50. Bitch".
It's going to take me at least six months to build back from this.
I am owned."
By the way, he did forward the emai from the macro minel to the EVE CS team but they basically said the same thing as before.....too bad.
So for playing by the ingame rules and killing a macro miner, the macro miner goes outside of game rules and uses a throw away ebay account to "get back" at a person in-game and ruining his gameplay as revenge. To top it off, CCP appears to side with the miner.
We need to CCP know that blindly waving the band setback stick around is not always a good thing. I agree they take a tough stance against Ebayers but when you are up against business that make money off ISK farming or just general jerks that have money to throw away like this, then the average player is going to suffer. Most probably won't be like my friend her and shrug it off and move on, most folks will just up and leave and start with the bad press on the company, something CCP couldn't take as much of like other big named MMO's can.
So for playing by the ingame rules and killing a macro miner, the macro miner goes outside of game rules and uses a throw away ebay account to "get back" at a person in-game and ruining his gameplay as revenge. To top it off, CCP appears to side with the miner.
We need to CCP know that blindly waving the band setback stick around is not always a good thing. I agree they take a tough stance against Ebayers but when you are up against business that make money off ISK farming or just general jerks that have money to throw away like this, then the average player is going to suffer. Most probably won't be like my friend her and shrug it off and move on, most folks will just up and leave and start with the bad press on the company, something CCP couldn't take as much of like other big named MMO's can.
"If we don't attack them, they will attack us first. So we'd better retaliate before they have a chance to strike"
Comments
I'm confused, so much seems to be left out in this "tale".
Is the person saying they were tipped 500m by the "targeted miner" after they wrecked them?
Why would they be in the negative and only wanting to retain a "182m" balance?
"-500 million. GM reversed Player Donation from smsnsnsnsmsns667 "
Correct me if I'm wrong but this seems quite obvious the offending player DID participate in something which was illegal and possilbly involved an out of game transaction. CCP has dedicated people checking transactions on a regular basis. They follow ISK tracking down the perpetrators. What reference existed to the comment about "$50"? It sounds possibly like someone bought something with $50 and after they recieved the "goods" they called the bank to reverse the charges claiming fraud; it makes sense.
There's been a lot of issues lately with accounts being "hacked". What appears to be happening is these "scammers" are sending a file via outside email when corosponding in relation to an out of game transaction. This file contains a key logger or some other sort of malicous code that relays the login/pw info for EVE Online to the sammers. CCP is exhibiting due deligence in addressing this problem.
DO NOT EVER OPEN AN EMAIL WITH AN ATTACHMENT! Only open it if you live close enough to the person to smack them around should something go wrong.
As well, there's been a terrible amount of spam in the eve-mail from "gold farmers" who are referencing sites to "buy isk with dollars". Out of currosity I went poking around with the sites listed in the spam I've recieved. EVERY SINLGE ONE HAD A TREMENDOUS REPUTATION OF SCAMMING PEOPLE AND CHARGING OUTRAGEOUS FEES ON CREDIT CARDS.
Taking the various DNS info it became quite obvious these scammers were *NOT* isolated to EVE. They showed experiance in MANY scams including other games and what appeared to be selling "knock-off" items when they were advertised as legitmate and original products. All of them originated out of China even though some sites incorectly alleged being registered out of the US "123 main st anytown usa".
Moral of the story: Gold farming and buying virtual items is bad.
Something puzzles me. For a GM to "reverse" a player donation, there needs to be a donation to reverse. So were did you get the 500M ISK from? And if all that money just "appeared" in your wallet, why did you spend it all on a Vagabond before investigating it?
Also, it has been stated many times that you need to petition macro miners before you steal their ore. This differentiates yourself between being just a 'vigilante looking for a reward' and being a 'thief of a thief'. Technically, you are not allowed to benefit from an exploiter in any fashion, but in the case of macro miners this encourages its own solution. Petition first!
If you really do have evidence that someone is trying to "ban grief" you, I suggest that you file an harassment petition and ask for a senior GM once you get a response. Regardless of the person's reason, behavior like that should not be tolerated.
CCP has always quietly supported macroers
If you recall back when the station exchange was annoucements their statement was something to the degree of "watching with interest".
- Scaris
"What happened to you, Star Wars Galaxies? You used to look like Leia. Not quite gold bikini Leia (more like bad-British-accent-and-cinnamon-bun-hair Leia), but still Leia nonetheless. Now you look like Chewbacca." - Computer Gaming World
Something fishy about your story... as one say if you have benefited from a macrominer without reporting it then GM action is justified... however if you where targeted by macrominers without benefiting from them then file harassment petition.
I always report before stealing from macrominers... been a while now but it have always been like that, if you stole without reporting it then GM could go into your account and removing the ore from you.. or isk if you had sold the stuff.
On a sidenote, been a while since we talked about it on EVE-Online but yeah I suspect that CCP does not do enough to combat this because quite frankly they benefit greatly from this.
I have petitioned countless macrominers and some have only been suspected and others quite clearly macrominers.
I remember a group of macroers I did follow and in one night stole like 110 000 kernite from them, I even raced their hauler and popping containers (before the containerflagging) just ahead of their hauler.
Nobody said anything in local, any normal miners would have reacted when I first took the first container, but in this case not even while racing with their hauler nobody said anything in local.
After about 2 weeks where I on and off tracked these guys and stole a container someone suddenly said "Why???" in local.
Guess what... today they are still in the game, 3 accounts that I remember from back then are still working.
There have also been suspected that some of the major alliances are employing macroscripts themself ... and there is ofcourse those who think that macroing is not so bad because it drives the prices for minerals and in other word T1 prices down ...
THAT is until they discover those macroers who are rathunting in 0.0 taking their spawns...
EDIT: Also I remember when the topic where heavy discussed in EVE-Online forums the ISD did close all threads about it and moved one thread that they kept open and fixed on top of the page saying that all discussion about macroers are to be in that thread only.
Ofcourse that was quite good for the ISD and CCP because NO CCP employees ever said anything in that thread, not even to let us who where worried about the issue know that they did read what we where talking about.
"Memories are meant to fade. They're designed that way for a reason."
Well from my personal experience I have never seen any action like that. All I saw was macro miners take over area after area I moved too. The were blatantly obvious, reported countless times and never went bye bye.
So I have to question just how active they really are when they aren't reporting it.
- Scaris
"What happened to you, Star Wars Galaxies? You used to look like Leia. Not quite gold bikini Leia (more like bad-British-accent-and-cinnamon-bun-hair Leia), but still Leia nonetheless. Now you look like Chewbacca." - Computer Gaming World
Its been stated before that you cant have a negative bank ballance. so just on that i say you are making this up.
Even without this there are other points i could pick up.
I find it funny that a macro miner got his revenge. Thats why EVE is beautiful. Every action has a reaction. You got what you deserved. Try to play sheriff and the bad guys will come gunning for you. Deal with it. You made your own mess. Quit whining and get your revenge on the miners. If you can't deal with it i guess it's time you quit harrassing people in Empire.
Make a difference!
Yes you can. They only way it can happen though is if a GM forces the money to be removed. This can happen as a penalty in removing illegal ISK, or when you get a ship reimbursed you will loose the insurance money (if you are waiting for a reimbursement, you should always take this into account. I've known some people who had to sell their ship because they spent the original insurance payout and then some first). Of course any actions initiated by you won't happen if you don't have enough ISK.
And when you have a negative balance the effects are just as the OP described: no market, no trading, no escrow. All you have is whats in your hangers that the generosity of friends.
Yeah I can see this happening...
I am a macro minner, I have been harrassed, attacked, and stole from for along time. Well I can spend $50 in isk to take my revenge...just transfer the money to a throw away account...then donate it to the scumm that attacks me...and add a little side note. "Isk purchased from xxxxxx97 on 10-04-06." Yeah IF I was a macro minner thats what I would do.
And yes, you can have a real BIG negative account. A well known pirate and his band, bought ISK...and got caught!
Well, some suggestions to protect yourselfs.
Petition the minners
screen shots of you wallet at the end of the day.
And dont use a "Main" account to attack the minners.
Ok, im a noob to Eve, only been playing a few days... im out exploring and come to a asteroid belt looking for a few rats to kill and theres all these canisters floating around that belongs to oh i forget the name...
Why would stealing it be bad enough to get you in trouble with the GM's?
Its kind of one of those things, if they are stupid enough to leave a crap load of them floating around they deserve to get it taken.
If the game mechanics allow it then why not? it does give the person who you stole from the ability to kill you with our recourse....so why the hell not?
Tatsit
Tantus Games
COO/Game Director
You are allowed to steal as much as you want BUT most likely they are secure cans, that means you can't open them without a password. And if you are in 0.9-1.0 they are not only secure cans but secure cans that was anchored LONG ago before the rules changed to not allow them anymore and have most likely been abondond for years.
"Memories are meant to fade. They're designed that way for a reason."
Huge holes? Its very simple:
1. He finds a macro miner and kills him, takes his stuff
2. Macro miners is mad, so he spends $50 and buys EBay ISK and has it sent to the killer. Then he reports the killer for buying illegal ISK or CCP notices a sudden $500 mill in a persons account
3. CCP takes the $500 mill then fines him $500 mill for illegal ISK buying
182,000,000(Starting balance) + 500,000,000(illegal ISK) - 500,000,000(Illegal ISK removed) - 500,000,000(CCP Fine) = -318,000,000
4. The Macro Miner send an email to the killer gloating - "Revenge is $50. Bitch"
5. The killer logs in the next day to see his account at -318,000,000 and CCP saying tough luck
The funniest part is the folks saying this is somehow ok to do to folks. So you're sayings its ok if you kill me to spend $50 on some EBay ISK, forward it to your account then report you of let CCP catch you with illegal ISK for revenge? This is somehow written as an acceptable response?
*By the way it looks like the same individual has sent it to him again (another $500 Mill) but he reported it to CCP and they just took the illegal ISK out again and has repetitioned CCP to go after the sender and miner
"If we don't attack them, they will attack us first. So we'd better retaliate before they have a chance to strike"
Why would he buy $50 in ISK. What do you think Macro Miners are Macro Mining for? To play the game?
No, they are the ones that sell ISK, so he probably has several hundred bill.
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Why would he buy $50 in ISK. What do you think Macro Miners are Macro Mining for? To play the game?
No, they are the ones that sell ISK, so he probably has several hundred bill.
"Revenge is $50. Bitch"
Dunno you need to ask this particular macro miner. Why would he even send this letter then after the transaction was made?
Maybe he just sent it through a secondary account (The smsmsmsmsms67 one) and equated 500 mill = $50.
The point is that if macro miners, gold farmers, whatever see this as a simple way to keep folks off their back that they will use this as a common tactic?
"If we don't attack them, they will attack us first. So we'd better retaliate before they have a chance to strike"
What I think he meant by the $50 thing is that he could have made $50 off the 500mil.
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**double post**
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What I think he meant by the $50 thing is that he could have made $50 off the 500mil.
Yeah hopefully, if folks start doing this CCP will clamp down on this fast. With the $50 remark, who knows. Either way, he sent that letter to CCP to show that the guy was freakin gloating and still CCP wouldn't refund the money (the 182 mill, not the 500 mill). Fortunately this guy was able to shrug off the loss and is moving on with ways to fix it. Funny that someone didn't think that what was done to him was bad enough and attempted it a second time.
"If we don't attack them, they will attack us first. So we'd better retaliate before they have a chance to strike"
In short: GM couldn't have reversed a 500m trade with the "throw-away" alt if the transaction had never happened.
"A ship-of-war is the best ambassador." - Oliver Cromwell
"If we don't attack them, they will attack us first. So we'd better retaliate before they have a chance to strike"
I'm just going to have to assume that all the mental midgets swearing this couldn't have happened are, in reality, macro-miner pricks themselves who are afraid that this tactic, that they use as well, will become common knowledge among players and devs, rendering it useless to them.
so, go ahead. swear it can't happen. i'll just write all those names down and make sure to find them in game, macroing away, and blow them to pieces. serve yourself up. fools.
I'm in this for the Experience, not the XP.