Howdy, Stranger!
It looks like you're new here. If you want to get involved, click one of these buttons!
Quick Links
The industry is dry. =(
JustFinch
Member Posts: 113
Well, here I am, after lurking on MMORPG.com for the last year I've decided to post my first actual message. Let me introduce myself - I'm Finch, and I'm 18...Yes, yes...young, I know. So - I'm an avid gamer, not pro, not casual, not hardcore, just aspiring. I started playing MMORPG's when I purchased EverQuest about two months before the Ruins of Kunark expansion was released. I was maybe 12 or 13 at the time, but I found that EverQuest was amazing in the days of Verant Interactive. Then I took a break from EverQuest after about a year. One full year of playing the game and I was - GASP - Level 20... Exactly. Like I said, I'm not casual or hardcore, you could actually define me to be the worst online game player on the planet. I quit EverQuest shortly after Shadows of Luclin was announced, and I migrated, like many, to Dark Age of Camelot.
Ah - something new, better graphics, better sounds, better animations, beautiful sky -- again, I played this game on and off. I played Albion, decided I hated it. Moved to Midgard, pretty much puked because of the overall poor design of that realm, so I jumped on over to Hibernia....Needless to say, I leveled to 30 or so by the time the New Frontiers expansion was released. I cringed at the elitism that seemed to spread mainstream as Trials of Atlantis was nerfed over and over... So, I waited things out until Gaheris was launched. I loved that server, but alas, the highest level I had on that server was 49...The closest I've ever reached to a level cap...Then I just quit due to Mythic's overall unprofessional handling of the game. I mean, come on more bug fixing and less Sanya Thomas spamming Camelot Herald, PLEASE? Lol. Only kidding. 
I returned to EverQuest finding a new server and rerolling again. I resubbed to EverQuest right after Gates of Discord was released. I played for three months, making my all-time high level of 53...then I just became bored with the game and the lack of groups for the LDoN expansion. (adventures made exp. grinding so much less a hassle, and it was fun for me.) Then some other expansion came out that raised the level cap from 60 to 65 or something like that. Pardon me if some times/eras/expansions don't matchup with something, it's been a very long time...
Well, after quitting EverQuest again, it was time for a new game to come out - a breathe of fresh air that wouldn't last long due to fresh air being polluted so easily - World of Warcraft. To date, I have played one character and one character only since the game launched and unfortunately, you guessed it, this character is not level 60. In fact, he's level 54 only because last month I decided to grind from level 44 to 54. Yup, nearly two years after release with over 16 days /played time and he's only level 54....And worst of all, the keylogger scams/hacks/exploits aren't really helping when it comes to me logging in. Hell, that last South Park episode made me want to delete my character and just burn my copy!! 
As I've said before, I suck at these online games. I haven't ever made it to the top level, I haven't ever been part of any endgame content... I had someone in WoW lastnight tell me I needed to be level 55 to join their pre-made battleground group, to which I asked, "What if I was level 55?" You know what he/she/it said? "Then I'd tell you that you'd have to be level 56..." I thought they were kidding, until I asked, "What if I was level 60?" then they said, "Then we'd either be full or have a better geared Warlock..." (I'm a Warlock, no purple-texted gear, all blue-green colored)
So - the elitism that has chased me from game to game to game has suddenly gone mainstream, alongside the big corporations that destroyed games I 'tried' in-between my absences from the main games (i.e. UO, AC, AC2 [to which I was in the beta for AC2], Horizons [vomits uncontrollably], etc.), and other forms of the industries lack of 'true' innovation has joined the bandwagon too. We're seeing MMO's come out in all directions, and I'm not particular fond of any of them. EverQuest is/was an exception, I mean, it was my 'first' MMO. Everyone has a thing for their 'first-this', 'first-that', 'first-who' (lol, kidding) and it just seems that the overall industry has been milked DRY.
Looking to the future, I can see games like Warhammer and Vanguard taking some of WoW's market, especially with about half-dozen players who quit WoW on a daily basis. (thats only a guess) I've played console games since I was 4 or 5 and I've played PC games since I was 6. For 12 years I've LOVED the gaming scene - especially MMO's, even if I'm the worst, but in all honesty - I have never been disappointed at all up until lastnight when I took a step back and thought, "So...At level 54 I have some level 51 premade group leader telling me off because he/she/it has 5 or so other characters that are level 60?" I stepped back, went onto this classic site, and started to read...In fact, I've been doing some reading on the industry for the last six months.
It's all been offered and never given - it's all been promised yet never delivered - a true world where one can detach his or her own mind from reality and fully immerse themselves in another dimension/universe/world/planet/era where they can truly leave the real world behind even if for ONE MINUTE to feel as though the very existance of their freshly created/generated pixel-shaded 64-bit to 5-billion polygon, virtual characters can make even a slight difference in that new world... Sorry but, even when I look back at the days of my youth playing EverQuest -- it's all the same -- and it doesn't deliver. With Mythic being bought out by EA, Verant bought by SOE, Microsoft and Sigil seperating and Microsoft letting Turbine manage things on it's own, everybody : do you see the problem yet? Big corporations are pretty much all thats left, and we all know that nowadays it's all about money. You can name off hundreds of features, impliment half of them, then realize that all of these features already exist in other games.
But what do companies do when they have dozens of MMO's that already exist with every possible setting/plot/backstory/lore/layout/feature/world etc.? My point being is that there is no such thing as innovation anymore because everything has been done so rapidly in the last 10 years. One of my first memories is playing the SNES when I first recieved it for Christmas... I don't know about you all, but it's awfully depressing when one such as I starts to think, "Wow! Every game to date has been amazing, theres no way the industry can EVER run out of ideas!" then all of a sudden six months later you've read and read and even experienced what you thought was never possible - being part of a dying genre, and to think, one of my best memories was playing EverQuest - now theres nothing left out there and nothing on the horizon. (no pun intended in terms of Horizons : Empire of Istaria)
I've played MMO's from EverQuest to WoW, Ultima Online to AC, DAoC to EverQuest II, Guild Wars to Star Wars Galaxies, EVE to Runescape, Lineage II to MapleStory, Gunz to Shadowbane....I've played most (if not all) of the mid-popular to highly popular games and just don't find joy in any of them anymore. I guess the real meaning of this post is :
Doesn't anyone feel the same way, and if so, as a consumer shouldn't we do something about this?
Comments
I don't feel that way, and I've been playing online games for over 10 years now.
But if you want to do something about it, the very best thing you can do is to not purchase the games. Your wallet is your loudest voice.
I've also been playing online games for over 10 years now, and I don't feel that way either.
However I do understand the elitism you talk about. You have to realize though that that's only a fraction of the player base. What you need to do is find people who are like minded and hang out with them. It makes the game alot more fun.
Another thing you can do is just play with your RL friends. I find quite often that a game I wouldn't normally play becomes tolerable when I'm grouping with a good buddy and we're having fun playing the game together.
I agree with ianubisi as well on the wallet thing. Don't pay for a game unless you're having fun with it. It's really that simple and if more people acted that way, games would have more pressure to keep us entertained. Currently there's a signifigant portion of the community that just keeps playing a game because they've already got so much invested in the game. (ie I have to keep playing because I've put in 60 hours already and I got all this top level stuff, I don't want to fall behind)
"Because it's easier to nitpick something than to be constructive." -roach5000
I gotta give you credit here. For 18 you sure have your head screwed on right which is better than most 18 yo's these days.
I am much older than you are but my experiences are just about the same. I always came close to the cap but never really reached them in any game so for wow actually
But I eventually quit because after awhile I got the been there done that feeling.
The industry is indeed dry. I have hopes for vanguard and warhammer to breath some new life into them but thats still just a hope. A faint hope that is
What can we do about it ? Choose not to spend our gaming dollars on them. There are enough decent console titles and other games to spend $$ on that perhaps it may bite enough into the MMO market for the devs to take notice. But after watching people play craptastic titles like Horizons and enjoy being spoon fed garbage I have not much hope for the average MMO player. Which at times to me seems quite stupid. More like a flock of sheep that is willing being led to the same tainted well and grass over and over again. Till the time when the sheep rise up and kick the sheep herder in the fuzzies and make em go ooopmh ... not much is going to change.
That all aside as I said I'm looking forward to titles like Vanguard which appears to be the true sequal to everquest. Warhammer which will continue the fine tradition of quality PVP with hopefully lessons learned from DAOC and a little less of Sanya Thomas ( Sorry I'm all tweetied out and that woman needs to leave the MMO scene cause she has no clue about anything ). Pirates of the Burning sea also looks interesting. The rest of them seem to be carbon copies of whats out there now.
[quote] I gotta give you credit here. For 18 you sure have your head screwed on right which is better than most 18 yo's these days. [/quote]
Well see that comes from self-discipline and observation over the years. Heh. In elementary and junior high the cool thing to do was smoke pot while high school gave firsthand knowledge of crystal meth and heroin, so while everyone else did those things, I was either working or at home studying/playing videogames.
(replace beer with Mt. Dew and you have me, lol!)
My current plan is to wait things out in WoW, even if I never make 60 (or 70 for that matter) I still need a 'fresh' premise, I mean, WoW is alright, but the community is horrible probably due to too much diversity, which is in-part caused by the 'less work = more gain' engine that runs the game and it's community all at the same time. My personal hope for Vanguard is that it combines such mechanics seen in WoW yet the same consequences/penalties in the early days of EverQuest....Man what a pain in the ass it was to go into Befallen for a corpse run when I knew someone of my level at that time had no business in such a place! heh. Reflective moment.
i agree with ya.... im 19, been playing since.. 13ish too.
industry is dry.
im mmo-less still.. for the past 6months or so.
It's a sad but true notion indeed. But there is hope, and here's how I see it.
When you put the genre of MMORPGs up against any other genre, you'll see that it is very new.
Everquest was what, 1999? Most people would consider that to be the game to first bring MMOs to the public's eye.
I consider WoW to be the next largest part of this genre's history. It clearly has the most subscribers of any MMORPG, and as such has brought a lot of attention and focus on the MMO world. And, as many of us already know, it made its appearance in an entire episode of South Park: one of the most popular comedies in the world.
All I'm really saying is that, our history is a relatively new one. However, it is by far the fastest growing of any other community. I mean, it would be every developers dream to generate the same numbers that World of Warcraft has. As a result, developers have begun to take extreme interest in MMOs, hoping to have similar success. This can only be good for MMO gamers. You see, I have a theory: for every 7 or so MMORPGs that don't fare so well, there is 1 created that will appeal to a larger audience. With more exposure being focused on the MMORPG community, there can only be more games being developed. And as we all know, more MMOs means more options.
The only thing that we can do is wait and be watchful. Because some day, there will be a game released that appeals to each one and every one of us individually. The trick is just finding it.
I don't think the industry is "dry." I think what happens is the process of game development is costly and so investors and those holding the purse-strings naturally gravitate toward that which seems, to them at least, to be less risky. In this case, it is less risky to produce a game that follows a proven and successful formula (the basic EQ/WOW formula) than to try and create something innovative that is totally unusual.
And to be fair to the purse-string-holders you can't blame them. After all, if they made something totally unique, it could be a hit, but it could be a huge flop. On the other hand, if they copy WOW, they can be assured that probably enough people will try it and like it that they can at least make back most if not all of their initial funds outlay... so the chances of a catastrophic loss (such as investing $10 million and making back less than $1 million before sunsetting the servers) are minimized.
Of course, I'd submit that the chances of a massive success are also minimized, because once you've "Been there/done that" there is less chance of a breakout success. But again, investors tend to be risk-averse, and real creativity is risk-prone. After all if you aren't producing a game that is similar to ones you know people like -- if it's totally new and original -- then people *might* like it, but you really will have no idea until the game is in later stages of development and it might potentially be too late (with lots of money down the hole then).
I think there are in fact lots of unique, interesting, creative design ideas out there, in that lots of designers and budding developers have them. But the chances of getting them funded are very small... because if they are unique, cool, creative, and interesting, they are risky, and the investors don't like that.
Of course to the end user, like the OP and myself, this does make the industry seem rather dry and stale, because all we see are the projects that are funded to completion. The super-nifty ideas that would be awesome if someone would just believe in them, but never get any funding? Sadly we never get to see those.
It's the same in other creative industries. How many novels are out there that are wonderful, but nobody will take the chance of publishing them because they are so creative, and the author untested, that you can't be sure the publication costs will be recouped by sales? Same thing in the computer industry. The more "out there" the idea, the harder it is to get funding/backing... which means you have a "weed out" process that sadly weeds out the wrong thing -- getting rid of originality, rather than weeding out lack of quality.
There is ONE thing we, as players, can and I think must do (and I hope we do it). We can encourage and support oddball, creative, but fun projects. When a cool new game comes out with a totally different schema, instead of deriding it and flaming it because it doesn't play just like what we are used to, we need to take a step back and ask if the game is fun on its own merits, regardless of how familiar it seems. After all if in 1935 (or whenever it was published) Parker Brothers had said Monopoly was "too different from checkers" and refused to publish it, look at how much fun millions of people would have been missing out on ever since.
The key as a player is, if you like Monopoly, NOT to expect every other game in the world to play just like Monopoly, but instead, try new games and be willing to enjoy Trivial Pursuit or Scattergories for themselves, not for their likeness to Monopoly.
Sadly too often the MMORPG fan base however does just the opposite. You can blame lots of people at SOE for what happened with both the Combat Upgrade and the New Game Experience, which were major changes to the fundamental game engine but the truth is this -- the fans, many of them, had a very hard time accepting that SWG followed a fundamentally different game model than the other MMORPGs at the time (other than perhaps UO). Hundreds of thousands of people wanted it to basically be EQ with an SW skin, and when they found out it was not, they criticized the game, not for being fundamentally flawed in its own right, but for not being enough like what they were used to in EQ. (This is NOT to say that the launch version of SWG was without flaw, but rather, that some of the complains, and many of the most explosive arguments, were really based on the difference between SWG and the other "traditional" MMORPGs like EQ and DAOC, and not about the game itself on its own merits.) You can find other examples in the MMORPG industry, such as the Saga of Ryzom, which like SWG follows a somewhat different game model, and pretty much every day on the Ryzom forums both here and at ryzom.com, there is at least one active thread where when you boil it all down, someone is compalining that Ryzom does not act exactly like every other traditional MMORPG (WOW, EQ, COH), and therefore is flawed. Again it's not flawed because it's internally imabalanced, but because it does not play enough like the older games.
With this kind of feedback it is not hard to see why game development companies are gun shy around truly unique and original ideas. We can't directly make them change, but we can, as players be more open minded about things, so that when new and innovative ideas come out, we don't immediately shoot them down for not having the exact features of a pre-existing game.
C
This part struck me, and this sort of thing is going to kill the genre.
I'm of the opinion that the games haven't changed. The people have changed. The way we play these games have changed.
Back in the old days, we didn't make the business of playing interfere with the play. We took people as they were, and we didn't have to plan out our experience. It just spontaneously happened.
These days, we have more excuses why not to play with so-and-so, than why we should. Guilds are a lot more serious, communications are a lot more serious, and fun seems to be more closely linked to the sort of "DPS math" a person can bring to the table.
Back in the early days without official boards, fansites, teamspeak, vent, powerclans, rankings ladders, PvP scorekeeping (EVE killboards), and PvE scorekeeping (WOW DKPs), each day was an adventure. Now, it is "geek football." It is a competitive sport about comparative statistical weights disguised as an adventure, but unlike football, or baseball, the game doesn't end, the scorecard doesn't ever revert back to "0-0," and nobody even knows your name.
We do not play characters anymore, because the combat engine doesn't recognize roleplay, and can be just as easily dispensed with. We play "positions," but positions in a neverending contest, in a season that has no champion, where the spectators and the athletes are one in the same. It is agony, but without the ecstasy. A psychological test of wills that all comes down to, "what's your DPS?"
Beneath it all, a computer game is about cold, inhuman, math. It only becomes a human experience when we treat it as something different than what it is. We had the ability to do that at one point, but not now. Instead of making the cold, inhuman math into something fit for human beings, we have decided that it is much better just to become more cold, and inhuman to better deal with the math.
So yes, the games boring. However, the reason they suck is because we "wiser" players of now would rather they be boring. Boring works. Boring means you'll win, because you could predict the results, and play the averages. Exciting means there is a possibility of failure, and failure in the minds of those who play today means "wasted time," as if the purpose of MMOs was not to waste time in the most enjoyable way possible.
__________________________
"Its sad when people use religion to feel superior, its even worse to see people using a video game to do it."
--Arcken
"...when it comes to pimping EVE I have little restraints."
--Hellmar, CEO of CCP.
"It's like they took a gun, put it to their nugget sack and pulled the trigger over and over again, each time telling us how great it was that they were shooting themselves in the balls."
--Exar_Kun on SWG's NGE
It's not just this genre of games that are bad, i find there a real lack of every genre lately : There hasn't been one game from 2005-2006 that i've played and been happy with :
In 2004 there was a few games and 2003 there were loadsa good mmorpgs out.
Im just getting tired of all the same old crap, every mmorpg out there atm is crap, i loved playing SWG but SOE had to go ruin that.
---------------------------------------------
Don't click here...no2
Hardly. People are competitive by nature, and often elitist in attitude. This kind of thinking has been around forever.
For as many of those elitist snobs you meet, you'll meet just as many people who are more than happy to have you along for the fun of it.
Eh, I don't level to the highest one most of the time too. I get too bored after a while and go to the next game. I'm not that great of a gamer but who cares. I only play for the joy and the communities.
Mustache is a cat
That has to go to the vet
Do your taxes now
I agree entirely with Beatnik's statement. Today's community focuses heavily on the "math" aspects of MMOs and what needs to be done to win, rather than what they'd really like to do in-game. But I think that, what ends an experience for a lot of gamers is the idea of having to start over.
Your first MMO is probably your best experience because you went into it not knowing what to expect. You probably didn't plan out your character to "deal the best damage" or "level up your skills for a second job change". As a result, you focused more on having fun than leveling up correctly. However there comes a time I think in all players' experiences when they realize that because of their decision to not research the game ahead of time, they'll suffer in the long run. As they level higher and higher, the game will become more and more difficult for them. They just aren't as strong as they could be and so a lot of parties won't pick them up. And so they leave... usually for good...
And why is this? Because they think back to how they got to where they were. Sure, it was fun the first time around getting to level 50. But to do it all over again? The idea of grinding over and over just to get to that one place again is pretty much repulsive.
Whether it's to create a superior character with newly gained knowledge of "how" to level up... or just to make another character that someone might consider fun... both directions will usually end in an experience that is more irritating than enjoyable. I've found myself unable to start another character once I've found my current one to be unsatisfactory. Especially in MMOs with huge grinds, which is the majority of popular MMOs, the idea of failure or the neccessity to start over is nothing short of excruciating.
Remember, people are paying for these games. And with the level of frustration these games can create; people will glady stop playing and paying rather than start all over again. It's a lose-lose situation really. Either you submit to the "math" as Beatnik points out and have less fun, or build your character as YOU want and risk the chance of facing inferiority or disappointment later in the game. Sad but true, and I think a lot of people are looking for a way out of this.
Alot of the times i'll quit an MMO because of the community. Not becuase of the game itself.
If WoW manged to find some way of getting rid of all the keyloggers/ mod users/ gold seller/ farmers/ buyers/ hackers/cheaters/exploiters/ ebayers. I'd be bakl into playing the game in a blink of an eye.
My first MMO game was my best experience with a MMO game. I went into thinking "WOW! A huge world for me to explore and meet and play with thousands of other people online!" I still do my best to maintain this thinking when I get started with a new MMO. But it's difficult when everyone else playing the game is thinking "Okay, which class lets me level up the fastest?"
Vanguard is my last ditch hope for MMO's. I want to play a game that doesn't make leveling and uber items the main focus. I want a game that focus's on building and maintaining a healthy and good community that allows you to get lost into it's world the moment you start playing.
Which FF Character Are You?
I understand the frustration or annoyances that we have with guilds or gamers that take the games way too seriously, but I wish everyone would stop acting like that's all there is. Only a fraction of the community is elitist, just as a fraction is casual and very friendly, and a fraction is quiet and solo-centric. Yes, in some games the balance varies, but I've never played an MMO that didn't have it's fair share of decent people.
And then I think, who I am to say all of these people are elitist? I know someone who's in a WoW guild that raids like hell all the time, but never in my experiences talking to him have I ever noticed anything elitist about him.
Lastly, I think a lot of us focus to achieve something in an MMO beyond having fun, whether it's building our characters, reaching that next part in the story arch, or getting the shiny uber helmet. In PvP, the point is to win and that's what players both want and need to do. And that aspect of the games is a blast for many.
Unless you're very paranoid of other players or are a perfectionist, I don't see how not having the best build would prevent you from enjoying a good game.
It's got some negatives, yeah, but a lot of what I consider its positives are answers to precisely what you've been bewailing in your original post. To wit:
- There's no real imbalance between "realms." It's pretty hard to screw up even your first character, unless you dump everything into Charisma for some reason.
- The elitism you mention seems to be almost completely absent (unless you count the murky metagame of EvE politics). Like I said earlier, I'm only a few days old there, but even in my tiny frigate I can provide valuable support to my corporation in various operations.
- The advancement system seems like a perfect fit for your playstyle. As you already know, skills accrue over time, rather than through usage or levels. Even if you played only a few hours a week for two years (the equivalent of your level 24 or whatever in EQ), your character in EVE would still be considerably more potent than its analogue in any other game, simply by virtue of an advancement system that is (almost) completely independent of time spent playing the game itself. Even with such a casual devotion, a person can be at the top of their game competetively within a specific field in only a couple months (or so I hear), which only serves to put the final nail in the coffin regarding player elitism.
- I've served my WoW time as well, and, yeah, the community stinks. I haven't played an MMO (excluding a handful of trials) since I quit WoW (about 18 months ago), and that game taught me that the community--more than anything else--is the key to an enjoyable MMO. And, for that, I'm grateful to WoW. Of course, this left me in limbo for those three halves of a year, because my top criterion for researching MMORPGs was met by so few games. Saga of Ryzom has a promising atmosphere, but I was turned off by the game itself in that case. Back to the drawing board, until EVE.
- As for innovation in general, EVE's had plenty of it from the beginning, from what I can tell. The advancement of skills by itself is unlike anything I know of in any other MMO, and that has tremendous implications on its own. And, hey, it's one of the only sci-fis in a veritable ocean of fantasy. That's gotta count for something.
Anyway, back to where I started: I'm curious regarding what you found unsatisfying, and perhaps how long you played. EvE seems to me to be the inverse of a lot of MMOs these days, in that the beginning is slow (and that's not even in relation to a relative rollercoaster like WoW) but the later gameplay is rich and fulfilling. I, for one, am looking forward to seeing it for myself. I played the EvE trial for the first time back in early 2004 and uninstalled after a few days. My mistake, I later learned, was not bothering to find myself a corporation with which to grow. This time around on day two I joined a corporation designed specifically to facilitate new players into the (relatively) daunting universe of EvE. I've already met some great people, and it's a pleasure to log on, despite my presently being mired in the unglamorous beginning stages of the game. Hell, if you'd like, I could even direct you to some people to talk to concerning enrollment, if you felt like taking the game for a spin again.Of course, perhaps you played the game for a year, were in a great corporation, and hated the game besides. In which case I'll stop plugging a game I've been playing for five days. However...
...I don't agree that the genre is dry. All trends are cyclical, and I think we're merely in a slump. Yeah, only big corporations can pull off the funding required, but wishing it weren't so is like being jaded about the fact that a Mom-n-Pop store can't fund an entrance plaza fitted with an Eiffel Tower. The predecessors were different, but modern MMOs are monumental projects. As has been said before, the advent of WoW is ultimately a good thing. No one doubts anymore that there is ridonculous revenue to be tapped here. Yes, there may (will?) be the initial shortfall of all the copycat companies providing imitations in a desperate hope to get a piece of the WoW pie, but, as companies like SOE are starting to realize, people will only put up with garbage for so long. Given the currently redundant nature of the MMO model, companies will be forced to innovate in order to keep this huge new market interested. I'd say the game market in general is in a slump right now. We're at the end of a graphical cycle with PCs and a system cycle with consoles, so things have naturally slowed down. But the future is not without hope, eh?
One final thought: the ultimate culmination of the MMO genre, it seems to me, can only be true virtual reality on massively interpersonal and intercommunal levels. The genre has hit a wall, fine, but how can it be at the end of its rope with such advancements still so very far away? Heh. It's fun to think about.
We had those games that catered to one's competitive nature. They are called FPS, RTS, and sports games. They were actually the pioneers of online play, and to be truthful, we wouldn't even want MMOs like UO and EQ if the competition was all that mattered.
The reason people went into UO and EQ was specifically because they wanted to get away from games where it was all about the "W." In fact, the term "game" really was ill-suited to MMOs. They were more like online toys: things that allowed the user to determine his or her own amusement outside of established rules, or criteria for winning and losing.
The early games were good toychests, filled with good toys. Like many good toychests with good toys, what becomes of the toys are in large part determined by the individuals who play with them. Some will create entire stories, use them as a vehicle for expression, and get lost for hours and days in a world of their own creation with themselves and others. That's what toys are meant to do.
Some though, will just destroy their toys with firecrackers. Some will just play with their legos, and neglect so-and-so's building to build alongside them. Maybe the peson neglected will destroy the other people's toys, since they are having too much fun without needing the neglected person. Playing with toys can be competitive, but only when we destroy the toys, and by extention, destroy the potential for the toys to give us fun in the future.
Maybe you are right, and there are a few people out there that are not going to blow up our toys, say that "playing with dolls is gay," or make playing with the legos a sport of guarding the lego city from the school bullies who want to throw shoes at it to knock it down. Maybe there are some that will allow us to come to the sandbox with our lone GI Joe figure, and take part in an adventure.
But for how much longer, ianubsi? The problem with saying that, "you'll meet just as many people who are more than happy to have you along for the fun of it," is that we have to pay upwards of $50, and perhaps $15 of non-refundable money to do it, let alone the time involved. Why bother, when there are things we can do to amuse ourselves when the enjoyments are less enjoyable, and the hassle is more of a hassle?
Because more and more often we are finding people saying, "we don't need you and your $6.00 bazooka guy, we need Billy's $25.00 deluxe machine gunner," or turning it into a game of who can boast about the best Gi Joe collection, played in terms of blowing up and breaking the GI Joes of everyone else.
Lum the Mad wrote about "broken toys," but it seems to me that whenever we get a new toychest, the bullies either already broke all the toys inside, will break the toys as soon as they realize people are having fun, or will start to redefine playtime as a sport about breaking toys, instead of playing with them. All I am wondering is why do we have to mess up the toys (MMOs), when there is a baketball and hoops just around the corner for sports (FPS, RTS, etc.)?
__________________________
"Its sad when people use religion to feel superior, its even worse to see people using a video game to do it."
--Arcken
"...when it comes to pimping EVE I have little restraints."
--Hellmar, CEO of CCP.
"It's like they took a gun, put it to their nugget sack and pulled the trigger over and over again, each time telling us how great it was that they were shooting themselves in the balls."
--Exar_Kun on SWG's NGE
Eve online is not ground breaking in any way really.
Consider this
the most fun had in the game is in 0,0 space total unbridled PVP. But you can't even think about really doing this till you have at least 3 Million Skill points trained up and it had better be trained up in skills that let you do what do you very well. That takes at least 3 to 4 months to accomplish. The rest of the game is just menial pointless grinding of NPC"s that serve no real purpose. New people can easily burn out before they even get into that space. Most corps also will not even look at you till you do.
As well where as the skill system is real time should you meet someone in PVP who has 6 million SP and you have 3 to 4 Million SP both trained up in combat vessels and skils, the one wih 6 million will win every time unless the have fallen asleep at the keyboard.
So its a great game where it excels but really its just another grind where the guy with the biggest gun and supporting muscles wins
I definitely agree with this statement. The industry IS indeed dry... but only for the moment. Some really anticipated MMO titles are on their way and while they won't be the genre's saviors by any means, they'll at least give that fresh new feel to some players, including myself.
It's going to be quite a while until a really solid, appealing MMO comes out. Again, the genre is very new by video game standards, and so designers will have to wait and reflect on trial and error in order to create a truly great MMO. Just take a look at SOE; publishers and developers can learn from their mistakes, and hope not to repeat them.
The industry is dry... but even droughts have their ends...
I'd have to agree with the majority of Beatnik's statements too.
Too much of late we see games where you only get in a group if you fill X role. The group needs a tank, or the group shouldn't have more than 1 healer, or you need to be this type of cookie-cutter build.
Too many people these days in MMOs have forgot about just having fun. Now that's not to say you can't have fun with a pre-built group of all the 'best' builds, but it sure sounds alot more like work than play. I mean, you should be able to play however you want and not be shunned for it. That's one of the reasons I like CoX, is you can basically play any way you like and still do well in the game.
But I do agree, not everyone is an elitist snob, they are just easier to see.
As far as the market being 'dry', I think that comment is basically just whining. The market is flooded with just about every type of game under the sun. Find the one that corresponds with what you want and play it. Otherwise you sound like (to use Beatnik's reference) a kid who's decided he's bored with all his toys and wants a new one.
The final thing to remember always about MMOs, is this. If you aren't having fun, stop playing the game. You pay to play the game, you should be having fun. If you're paying not to have fun, then something is wrong with you.
"Because it's easier to nitpick something than to be constructive." -roach5000
As others have said, MMO's are now big business and big businesses do not like to take unnecessary risks. MMO gamers have established the 'everclone' model the safest bet so it's no wonder that it predominantly what we see: games that are focused on virtual accumulation (levels and gear) and not on inventive gameplay.
I really havent had that 'Holy sh*t, this game is fun' feeling since early UO and AC1 days.
I think there is merit in Chessack's suggestion of spending your dollars on games that buck the trends and try to be original and avoid the big budget cookie cutter products. Hopefully that will show that it still is worth taking risks in this industry.
And see, that's one of the most unique things about the MMORPG industry. Every individual has different experiences. While you have hit a dry spell in games you can really say "this game is fun" about, others have found that feeling with other MMORPGs.
I think that looking at games that have been released and the feedback they've recieved, some developers are underestimating the consumer. The market is so widespread and the wants/needs of MMO players are so multi-dimensional, that you can't simply throw together what you believe works best to make a good game. What we think is just as important.
I don't think the industry is dry, and there are a lot of promising titles on the horizon. One thing that I hope will change or further over the next few years is that developers will try to innovate and really take the time to craft something that not only works well, but can give a lot of players that "holy sh*t, this is awesome" feeling.
I'm of the opinion that the games haven't changed. The people have changed. The way we play these games have changed.
Back in the early days without official boards, fansites, teamspeak, vent, powerclans, rankings ladders, PvP scorekeeping (EVE killboards), and PvE scorekeeping (WOW DKPs), each day was an adventure. Now, it is "geek football." It is a competitive sport about comparative statistical weights disguised as an adventure, but unlike football, or baseball, the game doesn't end, the scorecard doesn't ever revert back to "0-0," and nobody even knows your name.
I agree with everything except that I am not so sure that the people have changed. I think we are still the same but the commercialization of the industry has reached the point where it is now being ultra clinical about marketting. They are just preying on the human nature that is found in all of us.
What do you mean by that? Like 'hype'? As in, "let's take a popular license and make an MMO out of it?"
(Sorry if that sounded cynical, it wasn't intended to be. More of a "what do you mean exactly?")
I don't play MMOs these days. I'm moving on to things like Sim City, and I'm even cracking out the Playstation 2 again, and going into some of the action and roleplay titles that have come out in the last couple of years. The best thing about not keeping up with what is on PS2, is that you can get games on red label for 50% off or more, and they'll be brand new for you.
Games like the new Oblivion give a ton of creative tools, all of which do not require us to committ to a sub fee. It is a good value, and offers a ton of replayability. One thing I can say about Oblivion is that I'll never run out of content, the "server" is always up, and there is no pressure to grind, twink, or use TS.
I used to play alot, and really enjoy the games. I used to really enjoy playing with others in the MMOs, especially with UO, Star Wars Galaxies, and Seed. I never got the feeling that the people that were in those MMOs put the business of playing before the play, and consequently, the play was very fulfilling to me.
MMOs used to feel so big, and immersive. Now, they all look small, stale, and about petty things. It reminds me why I left the Cyber Cafe LAN scene for MMOs. There are only so many times you can go "BOOM! Headshot" before it becomes lame.
__________________________
"Its sad when people use religion to feel superior, its even worse to see people using a video game to do it."
--Arcken
"...when it comes to pimping EVE I have little restraints."
--Hellmar, CEO of CCP.
"It's like they took a gun, put it to their nugget sack and pulled the trigger over and over again, each time telling us how great it was that they were shooting themselves in the balls."
--Exar_Kun on SWG's NGE