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This is my last open ended ffa pvp gamestyle post..."SANDBOX" Sry vry long post
jackilojohn
Member Posts: 144
"sanI have read alot of threads debating the hardcore pvp vs the pve/pvp games that are the majority of the market right now. I want to explain one side of the story a bit more clearly to anyone that wants to know.
I believe we picked the wrong words to describe the type of "hardcore" pvp people like me are looking for. None of us want a constant gankfest. What we should have said is we want a pvp setting that allows for freedom. If we just wanted to run around killing people lower level than us we would do it in WoW, EQ2, or any other game really. Some people might make the arguement that we don't play those games because we can't take players items but why would someone want to take items from someone lower level?? It wouldn't make sense because they would be useless to a capped level player. Anyway, this is what we want to help explain it.
There are some basic ideas that need to be in place in a mmorpg like to fit the ideas of a ffa pvper. You need crafting to play a large role in the game. Crafting must be the primary way to gain items inside the world. Crafting must be detailed also so that items can vary greatly. That way no one has the same stuff. The people who make them should be able to even design the items in some way to fit their style. With the amount of money WoW generates it could code so much more detail into the game.
Secondly, you must have no instancing to make the entire setup work correctly. It would help if the entire world was seemless but it can be possible without it being seemless. Instancing takes away from the idea of a sandbox game completely.
Third there doesn't need to be a huge grind. Actually, the best set up wouldn't have any levels at all. The best way would to be to use skills. Example: If you wanted to learn how to control fire as a mage this would be a skill. It wouldn't take very long to level this skill completely to cap. I will say a couple of weeks. This skill would make you worth something in a pvp situation within a couple of weeks. Although, you will still be able to learn more skills. You could also add a sword master skill into the mix, or a bard skill or whatever you wanted. The point of this is to make it to where you can come into the game play a couple of weeks and be decent VS other player but still not quite as good as they are. You can cap out one good handie skill and be decent but not as good as you will be after you master your other 5 skills. Of course there would be spells/specials inside of each skill.
Fourth, you seriously need player housing. It needs to be well done so that housing doesn't get really crowded inside the game. You want it to appear as if the houses were put there by the developers. This just helps get you immersed into the game. Inside your house you should be able to get kickass stuff like furniture, art, rare artifacts to put inside of your house. You should be able to design it kind of like a the sims house generator. This just adds for more things to do inside the game. It also gives you a safe place to go and craft so that you don't have to worry about anything. You can store all your loot in there and it feels so much more real than putting it in a NPC bank.
5th, You must above all else have FFA PVP. Anyone who doesn't know what this means it means that anyone can be attact by anyone else at any time. You do not need waring factions or waring races placed in the game because trust me there will be war between groups created by the players. If you did put waring races or factions in the game it would undermind the idea of FFA Open pvp sandbox game style. There must be rules in place though to keep this game from becoming an unbearable gank fest all the time. First of all with a ffa pvp game there will be player item looting. Some people are very against this because they think of the items in wow when it's extremely hard to get good items but take UO for instance there was good items but it wasn't hard to get. So, losing your ideas sucked but it wasn't the end of the world. Another, way to help this is to make it where each player can only caring so much stuff that way when someone kills you they cannot take everything you have because they couldn't care it. The only way to do it is if they left everything they had on and took everything you had.
Now to cut back on the constant ganking in games like this there must be some laws put in place. Here is how it would work. You would actually have a jail and if "player x" killed a certain number of lower level players depending over course how much higher level "player x" was after he killed a certain number of lowbees his charactor gets put in jail for a certain amount of time. If he logs out to wait out his prison sentance then when he logs back in it will still be there. The time would have to be paid off inside the game. Also, there should be levels to this so that people don't abuse it by knowing exactly when they are going over their limit. If someone kills just a couple of people he should get penalties like he can't go inside of any city gates without the guard killing him. And these guards are unstoppable they will kill anyone with one hit no matter what. Also, you could make it impossible for a criminal to buy items from vendors there are all kinds of ways to punish gankers. AND YES GANKERS SHOULD BE PUNISHED BECAUSE NO ONE LIKES THEM AND THEY RUIN THE GAME.
Now, if someone attacks you then you have every right to kill that person without punishment. Another, thing that I thought would be nice is if there was a bounty hunter system. If someone was a criminal then they can be saw on the criminal list and be hunted down and killed without the bounty hunter getting any punishment for it.
If there are two guilds that decide to go to war with each other then those players can openly attack each other all they want to without being punished. That is how war goes.
Another thing I have always wanted to see in a sandbox type game(we call it a sandbox type game because you can make anything you want to out of it" I wish you could bury items in treasure chest. This of course would have to only last for awhile because it would cause server lag. This is just a small little something I threw in.
Now, for the reason we would like to have a game like this.
With this type of game it's completely open ended. The war isn't staged and the pvp can actually mean something to the players that are doing it. Your guild can take over ground or lose ground. Your guild can own a mine just because they have the power to keep it for their crafters that need to mine it. With this type of game there will end up being some politics come into play. Guilds and city creators will start making people to fit king and knight type rolls all on there own. In a game like this anything goes and that is what is so great about it. You can think up all kinds of things to do on your own with your guild or just a group of friends. Also, having the thought that someone might kill you at anytime and take your stuff is just a much more realistic and intense game play style. I have played many many mmorpg's and there isn't one like this on the market or I'd be playing it right now. I have played wow, eq2, and all the other everquest clones they all become boring to me within a month. Everything is pointless in these types of games but people keep playing them even if they don't think they are that much fun. They keep playing them to get new loot and better gear. I just don't get it. Here is the sad truth as long as millions of people keep playing those types of games. I'll never get the type of game I want and if I do get it it won't be of the same quality as WoW because it will end up being a small team of devs trying to make it. I hope this has helped clear any questions up about the ffa pvp idea. I don't want someone flaming me or anything but I would appreciate any questions that I might be able to answer.
I believe we picked the wrong words to describe the type of "hardcore" pvp people like me are looking for. None of us want a constant gankfest. What we should have said is we want a pvp setting that allows for freedom. If we just wanted to run around killing people lower level than us we would do it in WoW, EQ2, or any other game really. Some people might make the arguement that we don't play those games because we can't take players items but why would someone want to take items from someone lower level?? It wouldn't make sense because they would be useless to a capped level player. Anyway, this is what we want to help explain it.
There are some basic ideas that need to be in place in a mmorpg like to fit the ideas of a ffa pvper. You need crafting to play a large role in the game. Crafting must be the primary way to gain items inside the world. Crafting must be detailed also so that items can vary greatly. That way no one has the same stuff. The people who make them should be able to even design the items in some way to fit their style. With the amount of money WoW generates it could code so much more detail into the game.
Secondly, you must have no instancing to make the entire setup work correctly. It would help if the entire world was seemless but it can be possible without it being seemless. Instancing takes away from the idea of a sandbox game completely.
Third there doesn't need to be a huge grind. Actually, the best set up wouldn't have any levels at all. The best way would to be to use skills. Example: If you wanted to learn how to control fire as a mage this would be a skill. It wouldn't take very long to level this skill completely to cap. I will say a couple of weeks. This skill would make you worth something in a pvp situation within a couple of weeks. Although, you will still be able to learn more skills. You could also add a sword master skill into the mix, or a bard skill or whatever you wanted. The point of this is to make it to where you can come into the game play a couple of weeks and be decent VS other player but still not quite as good as they are. You can cap out one good handie skill and be decent but not as good as you will be after you master your other 5 skills. Of course there would be spells/specials inside of each skill.
Fourth, you seriously need player housing. It needs to be well done so that housing doesn't get really crowded inside the game. You want it to appear as if the houses were put there by the developers. This just helps get you immersed into the game. Inside your house you should be able to get kickass stuff like furniture, art, rare artifacts to put inside of your house. You should be able to design it kind of like a the sims house generator. This just adds for more things to do inside the game. It also gives you a safe place to go and craft so that you don't have to worry about anything. You can store all your loot in there and it feels so much more real than putting it in a NPC bank.
5th, You must above all else have FFA PVP. Anyone who doesn't know what this means it means that anyone can be attact by anyone else at any time. You do not need waring factions or waring races placed in the game because trust me there will be war between groups created by the players. If you did put waring races or factions in the game it would undermind the idea of FFA Open pvp sandbox game style. There must be rules in place though to keep this game from becoming an unbearable gank fest all the time. First of all with a ffa pvp game there will be player item looting. Some people are very against this because they think of the items in wow when it's extremely hard to get good items but take UO for instance there was good items but it wasn't hard to get. So, losing your ideas sucked but it wasn't the end of the world. Another, way to help this is to make it where each player can only caring so much stuff that way when someone kills you they cannot take everything you have because they couldn't care it. The only way to do it is if they left everything they had on and took everything you had.
Now to cut back on the constant ganking in games like this there must be some laws put in place. Here is how it would work. You would actually have a jail and if "player x" killed a certain number of lower level players depending over course how much higher level "player x" was after he killed a certain number of lowbees his charactor gets put in jail for a certain amount of time. If he logs out to wait out his prison sentance then when he logs back in it will still be there. The time would have to be paid off inside the game. Also, there should be levels to this so that people don't abuse it by knowing exactly when they are going over their limit. If someone kills just a couple of people he should get penalties like he can't go inside of any city gates without the guard killing him. And these guards are unstoppable they will kill anyone with one hit no matter what. Also, you could make it impossible for a criminal to buy items from vendors there are all kinds of ways to punish gankers. AND YES GANKERS SHOULD BE PUNISHED BECAUSE NO ONE LIKES THEM AND THEY RUIN THE GAME.
Now, if someone attacks you then you have every right to kill that person without punishment. Another, thing that I thought would be nice is if there was a bounty hunter system. If someone was a criminal then they can be saw on the criminal list and be hunted down and killed without the bounty hunter getting any punishment for it.
If there are two guilds that decide to go to war with each other then those players can openly attack each other all they want to without being punished. That is how war goes.
Another thing I have always wanted to see in a sandbox type game(we call it a sandbox type game because you can make anything you want to out of it" I wish you could bury items in treasure chest. This of course would have to only last for awhile because it would cause server lag. This is just a small little something I threw in.
Now, for the reason we would like to have a game like this.
With this type of game it's completely open ended. The war isn't staged and the pvp can actually mean something to the players that are doing it. Your guild can take over ground or lose ground. Your guild can own a mine just because they have the power to keep it for their crafters that need to mine it. With this type of game there will end up being some politics come into play. Guilds and city creators will start making people to fit king and knight type rolls all on there own. In a game like this anything goes and that is what is so great about it. You can think up all kinds of things to do on your own with your guild or just a group of friends. Also, having the thought that someone might kill you at anytime and take your stuff is just a much more realistic and intense game play style. I have played many many mmorpg's and there isn't one like this on the market or I'd be playing it right now. I have played wow, eq2, and all the other everquest clones they all become boring to me within a month. Everything is pointless in these types of games but people keep playing them even if they don't think they are that much fun. They keep playing them to get new loot and better gear. I just don't get it. Here is the sad truth as long as millions of people keep playing those types of games. I'll never get the type of game I want and if I do get it it won't be of the same quality as WoW because it will end up being a small team of devs trying to make it. I hope this has helped clear any questions up about the ffa pvp idea. I don't want someone flaming me or anything but I would appreciate any questions that I might be able to answer.
Comments
Couple things.
A game that becomes too open ended without the mechanics to support it's "open endedness" ends up a disaster. Case in point, Face of Mankind. I'm all for an open ended world that allows you to make what you want out of it- but the developers need to anticipate this; and provide fundamental game mechanics at least for every distinct possibility based on the environment they have created.
I also disagree with the notion of "jail time", not the principle of punishment itself. Jail time is complete down time where they player has absolutely nothing to do; the gameplay stops- and even though that person is a no good sonofabitch; they need to be able to do something that provides some entertainment while being punished in some way. Don't ask me what- I dunno.
I like how you say that player housing is critical and that it shouldn't be awkward and crowded; agree 100%.
Hope you got your things together. Hope you are quite prepared to die. Looks like we're in for nasty weather. ... There's a bad moon on the rise.
Yes, having the game to open ended should be carefully monitered and thought about. Of course the game itself should still have all the quest, npcs, interesting things it can have in it.
"alignment" concept, you almost perfectly described what Darfall is
trying to produce...
"By the data to date, there is only one animal in the Galaxy dangerous to man, man himself. So he must supply his own indispensable competition. He has no enemy to help him." -Lazarus Long
Fear not fanbois, we are not trolls, let's take off your tin foil hat and learn what VAPORWARE is:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vaporware
"Vaporware is a term used to describe a software or hardware product that is announced by a developer well in advance of release, but which then fails to emerge after having well exceeded the period of development time that was initially claimed or would normally be expected for the development cycle of a similar product."
To the OP
You have pretty much described EVE actualy at first I thaught you took the EVE game mechanics and wanted to mix that with a fantasy theme
But I must agree there I for one would play a game like that (I play EVE myself but if there was a similar sandbox fantasy game I would play that)
I find it amazing that by 2020 first world countries will be competing to get immigrants.
It makes perfect sense because the ganker is hurting those lower level people by taking it and that's their primary draw to the game. In every thread like this that runs long, you end up with at least one 'hardcore' PVPer going on about this really fun time when they found a way to gank people and take their stuff, often without much risk to themself. Gate campers in EVE blow up everyone coming through a gate, not just those that they suspect will have useable stuff, and Lineage2 had a huge problem with people ganking lowbies until they added anti-gank rules.
That whole 'it wouldn't make sense' bit is just dishonest, it certainly does make sense, there are tons of examples of it happening in games, and the fact that you pretend it doesn't leads me to believe it's probably your big motive for playing.
This is a common misconception, 'skills instead of levels' doesn't mean no grind. For example, EVE skills train automatically, but you still have to grind like crazy for cash and possibly reputation. How many hours of mining, ratting, and missioning go on in EVE compared to the actual PVP?
It only takes ONE level-capped jerk camping a lowbie spawn point to ruin the day of dozens of players.... and that is what open PVP allows. You don't need 10 jerks, or even 5... just 1 will do it.
C
It only takes ONE level-capped jerk camping a lowbie spawn point to ruin the day of dozens of players.... and that is what open PVP allows. You don't need 10 jerks, or even 5... just 1 will do it.
C
Couldn't have said it better myself.
statistically speaking, a ffa PvP MMOG with a sub population of 100,000 would have 1,000 genuine psychopaths running around doing as much damage as they possibly could...which is a lot!
In addition to the real-life psychos there would be another 4,000 extremely unpleasant assholes to suffer!
FFA PvP is an awful idea...not to mention unprofitable.
When the game revolves around private guilds, then the game is in danger of creating accessability concerns that are beyond the scope of gameplay and code to correct.
In a game where guild membership becomes so important, it is never the "in-game" relationships that matter. It is the out-of-game relationships that are organized around out-of-game tools that tend to govern the game. I could be a decent player, but if the most important thing a guild cares about is whether or not I'll wear a headset and log on to TS, then what I do or don't do in the game really doesn't matter.
I could be the worst player in the guild. But if I am the brother in real life of the leader, all of that doesn't matter. I could also be the best player, but if I post a thread on the guild's BBS saying one thing about the war in Iraq, and everyone else is opposed and thinks I'm Satan, then I'll be out for things that have no bearing on how I roleplay, or what I do within the game.
Now if guild membership is not all that important in a game, then these things are no big deal. However, if getting into a guild is considered essential to enjoying the game, then what do you do when players are guildless, and no guild will take them on?
__________________________
"Its sad when people use religion to feel superior, its even worse to see people using a video game to do it."
--Arcken
"...when it comes to pimping EVE I have little restraints."
--Hellmar, CEO of CCP.
"It's like they took a gun, put it to their nugget sack and pulled the trigger over and over again, each time telling us how great it was that they were shooting themselves in the balls."
--Exar_Kun on SWG's NGE
It only takes ONE level-capped jerk camping a lowbie spawn point to ruin the day of dozens of players.... and that is what open PVP allows. You don't need 10 jerks, or even 5... just 1 will do it.
C
Couldn't have said it better myself.
statistically speaking, a ffa PvP MMOG with a sub population of 100,000 would have 1,000 genuine psychopaths running around doing as much damage as they possibly could...which is a lot!
In addition to the real-life psychos there would be another 4,000 extremely unpleasant assholes to suffer!
FFA PvP is an awful idea...not to mention unprofitable.
Did people not read my post? I mean I simply said that you must above all make sure that the gankers are not aloud to do what they want to do. By means of punishment if they do. This would keep the game fun and yes it can be done. There are hundreds of ways to do it. People like the ones that have posted talking about how it can't be done just come on here to say oh, ffa pvp sucks, no matter what it sucks, but really they are just not looking at it openly. They don't understand how to place the checks and balances on the gankers.
was the perfect game and nothing has ever come close to it. The FFA pvp
worked because not onyl were there groups of people looking to slay all
the innocents they can there were groups of people hunting down
murderers. If you got killed you lost your gear but it didnt matter
gear didnt make the game like it dfoes in all the modern mmos. UO was
about your skill not your gear or money. If you had money you could
have lots of rares and staus items but they didnt affect how powerfull
you were. For the last few years I have been looking for a game
remotely similar to this and have found none, nobody has yet to try to
re create the original UO and I dont know why. I have heard people say
that the only end game in UO was pvp which is completely wrong. UO had
a social aspect beyond any current mmorpg, to be entertained in Uo you
did not need to be fighting you could be chatting with your friends in
one fo your houses, decorating your house, rare hunting, crafting and
socializing at the forge, gathering resources, shopping. The list goes
on and on. I dont think I will enjoy an mmorpg ever again unless
someone realizes that there are more people like you and I that want
this and create a game to cater to us. UO was perfect and they ruined
it by trying to make it like modern mmos. If left alone I would still
be playing. People that dont want to be killed and want to have uber items can play their wow for the rest of thier lives for all I care but I know that if a game like the original was created all of the true mmo players would flock to it.
Former UO player searching for something even remotely close to what UO was...
i want fast paced constant complex mmo pvp action.
It only takes ONE level-capped jerk camping a lowbie spawn point to ruin the day of dozens of players.... and that is what open PVP allows. You don't need 10 jerks, or even 5... just 1 will do it.
C
Couldn't have said it better myself.
statistically speaking, a ffa PvP MMOG with a sub population of 100,000 would have 1,000 genuine psychopaths running around doing as much damage as they possibly could...which is a lot!
In addition to the real-life psychos there would be another 4,000 extremely unpleasant assholes to suffer!
FFA PvP is an awful idea...not to mention unprofitable.
Did people not read my post? I mean I simply said that you must above all make sure that the gankers are not aloud to do what they want to do. By means of punishment if they do. This would keep the game fun and yes it can be done. There are hundreds of ways to do it. People like the ones that have posted talking about how it can't be done just come on here to say oh, ffa pvp sucks, no matter what it sucks, but really they are just not looking at it openly. They don't understand how to place the checks and balances on the gankers.
I'm sorry I said something negative about your FFA (but isn't really) PvP idea. I take it all back...
In short, you are trying to have your cake and eat it too. And as nice as it would be if you could do that, you really can't.
The other problem is that any punishment system you devise is going to have holes in it, and every hole = a ganker who can grief people and ruin the game for them.
This is why FFA PVP is fading into obscurity. Developers are just finding it easier to let players who don't want to be griefed, turn on a flag that says basically "you can't grief me now no matter what" (by turning off PVP, exiting the PVP zone, whatever). It definitely makes the game less realistic, but it also lets the player avoid 100% of the griefing if he wants.
C
Former UO player searching for something even remotely close to what UO was...
Where do we live? yes, correct earth. I live in the united states, (we seem to have a can do attitude around here) In the united states you can walk up to anyone you want to and shoot them with a 12 gauge if you felt the need to do so. Of course there would be punishment for the ones that felt they needed to do that. The real world is a perfect example of how the freedoms of such a pvp enviroment can be enjoyed without having a all out gankfest. Stop trying to deny the fact that it can be done because it's simple. If a home town country redneck fella like myself can think of some simple things that can make it happen then surely to god some educated smart guy can finish the product.
Also, saying that any punishment system created will have holes in it and every hole is a ganker is just another way your trying to rationalise your beliefs and project them onto others in this forum. What would be the wholes for the system I said? And even if you find some the amount of punishment can be raised or lowered depending on how player testing proves it to work effectively. Punishment could be created in many ways other than just jail. You could take items/money from people. Lower there level (the gankers would hate that). I would still want some areas in the game to be completely open to criminal attacks but these areas would be for high level players anyway.
The point of this rant is to show that some people seem to have this belief that it's impossible to create a game like this and that idea is just ridiculous. I can see it in my head and anything that needs fixed can be. I don't get why people have to come on here and blast their gospel about how it could never work.
Former UO player searching for something even remotely close to what UO was...
It's certainly possible to create such a game. I am not sure where I said it was not possible, or where I said it was ridiculous to try.
C