Ok, Sturmrabe, I try to be fair when I discuss these things so I clicked your link and read through most of that stuff to update myself. I found nothing which contradicted my impression of the game. So if there was some specific thing which you wanted me to see maybe you could just copy and paste it here because I couldn't find it.
There was the stuff about player made items being good because they are the only items with sockets. The sockets allow you to attach gems to them which enhance them in various ways. Sounds great right? I already knew about that. But....here's a thought....have you ever stopped to ask yourself where the best gems are going to come from? Don't kid yourself, they will come from PvE raids. And in all likelyhood the materials you need to craft items that can be fitted with the best gems will also come from raids.
The content developer of the game said it himself....nobody would do large raids if they could get equal rewards from from other activities. And he made it pretty clear that he wants people to do large raids. So, one way or the other, you won't be getting top quality gear unless you dedicate yourself raiding.
Healthy skepticism is always, well... healthy. Reading ones fears into a Dev post is, well... reading ones fears into what someone has stated, and not taking things at face value. At no point did Jayde state that large party raids would receive the best loot or rarest craft components. He was merely pointing out why large scale raids should still earn rewards. Did he commit Funcom to having to put the best gear drops only in the large RAID loot tables? Nope, not at all.
There are a plethora of methods to entice participation in larger RAIDs. For instance, let me interject a random theory which has no basis within reality yet is as equally valid as the theory of best gear = large RAID mentality:
PvE loot drops are available through random MOB encounters at specific drop rates
Similar loot could drop at a higher or 100% drop rate off a 'single group' RAID encounter
only one item for the group
or a ratio of items to number of players for the encounter
"perhaps" larger RAID encounters, would increase this ratio
an increased ratio of similar loot would not = the best loot the game has to offer
This is speculation, just as the "theory" that Funcom is ruining their game by making the best equipment or craft components come from large RAID encounters. Sorry folks both are simply theories. Take what Jayde said at face value. If "Age of Conan: Hyborian Adventures" has 40+ RAID encounters, those encounters should receive some reward for their effort. Jayde's comments have been taken out of the context in which they were delivered and people have read their fears into them. Jayde's comments were specifically given as a response to players asking for large RAID encounters not to issue any sort of item reward.
In closing, the current information released should point out that all gear has two sets of stats, one for PvE and one for PvP. The best PvE item may be the worst item for PvP.
neanderthal: I just want you to know that I STARTED that thread on the AoC forums you quoted, and noone here is more anti-raid than I am! NO-ONE!But that info is out of context, he was defending raiding against rabid anti-raid posts, but it is clear that GvG and sieges and city building is the true end game content... here try this on for size:
jayde:
Okie, I'll be straight and to the point: enough with the propaganda about raids and comparing to WoW and all that schenanegans. Most of the craftable items will be from storebought components or materials gathered in the resource and building playfields. At the high-end, however, the best enhanced versions of items or recipes will occasionally require components that drops from mobs instead of just being gathered.Conan is a combat-oriented game and, as such, I don't believe including combat in the realm of crafting is misplaced. That said, crafting will still be extremely valuable regardless of if you take advantage of some of the highest-end alternate versions of items. These alternate versions will typically provide a marginal increase in flexibility (e.g. a slightly higher max gem slot size) at the tradeoff of rarity. Some things are not intended to be common, even if they are crafted. The base and secondary enhanced versions will contain 90%+ of the functionality, purpose, and usability of the highest versions. Some players will probably want to seek out the most powerful versions of the items at all times, but as the goal of the crafting system has always been flexibility, I would imagine in most cases players will find the base or "rare" versions of the recipes to be more than sufficient.Additionally, most, if not all, of the results and components will be tradeable regardless of where they are found.To answer a question on the first page, armor "smithing" will include "cloth" armors as well. Of course, the labels will end up being a bit more generic in-game to make more sense...but the update is working with generalities. Anyway, happy to answer any other questions in this thread.. but I would prefer not to focus on a very minor element of the scenarion in regard to dropped components.
Originally Posted by Ziegler There wouldnt be any need for assumptions if devs would state simply and clearly...It is our intentions that PvP will not be influenced by PVE items. orItems found in RAIDs will also be available in other areas of the game that require large efforts to complete as well.Some of you want to think this is going to be the greatest game and funcom can walk on water....they're Devs, trying to make a living, and I have no doubt they are capable of making the wrong decisions or masking their true intentions. No disrespect to you Devs, but it aint like I have set down and shared a beer or two with ya, so ya dont get my implicit trust from reading posts on a message board or marketing statements.
No we are not going to make PvE items worthless in PvP. That would be a pretty ignorant thing to do. Probably more ignorant than not considering the point you bring up about "raid" geared people dominating PvP. With the possibilities for crafted armor tailored through gems and even the potential for PvP stat specific gems that could be used in crafting I see no reason to worry. Its all about balance, which isnt going to be possible until said items exist for comparison will it
They won't be worthless in PvP, but they won't be the only way to compete in PvP for certain... That being said, I have a fear of ALL MMO's moving towards raid=endgame bullshit... but its obvious in this game that endgame= GvG sieges... and that is the aspect that kept me playing Shadowbane despite innumerable faults.
Of all that is written, I love only what a person has written with his own blood. -Nietzsche
I don't know what you guys are seeing but I still haven't seen anything that contradicts my understanding that you will have to do raids to get the best stuff.
And you guys say I took that quote out of context. I don't want to go off on some silly finger pointing tangent but I hardly think that that was a fair attack on the point I was trying to get across. I couldn't very well copy and paste the whole thread, and if I did no one would want to read it all.
I could have just copied that one line that I bolded but I copied the entire post specifically to avoid taking things out of context. Other than that I don't know what more I could realistically do to keep things in context.
Strumrabe, I'm really tempted to dissect those quotes you provided but I don't have the time right this minute. But let me point out that nowhere in any of it did they directly say that you can get the very best items without raiding.
Before reading those quotes pose to yourself the question; "Will I have to do raids to get the best stuff." Now go through the quotes and see if you can find one line that clearly indicates that NO you won't have to. I couldn't find it.
I found, "I see no reason to worry."
------Yeah, well, I see plenty of reason to worry.
And I found, "At the high-end, however, the best enhanced versions of items or recipes will occasionally require components that drops from mobs instead of just being gathered."
------Uh, define 'occassionally' and explain specifically what mobs in what type of content. This doesn't answer anything. At best it's just a way of vaguelly saying, "Raid for the best stuff" but without actually coming right out and saying it.
These devs have learned to talk like politicians. If you ask a politician, "Are you going to raise our taxes?" They will say something like, "Tax hikes are not currently a priority I am considering." Or, "I know that nobody likes having their taxes raised." Which doesn't really answer the question.
Ack, and there I went starting to dissect it. I have to go for now but I'll check back either later tonight or tommorrow.
I have noticed that Aoc devs "beat around the bush" if you will. You really do need to search and search for the correct information and answers to your questions. Back on topic, I think that they probably will have raid items and odds are they will be the "best" in the game seeing as if the best items in the game were easily obtainable everyone would have them. Of course I don't have a zillion quotes to back that up like some people...
The statement is also out of context since it was in reply to another "dont ever have raids in Conan plz" thread.
The term "raid" by definition of MMO's could mean any encounter that involves more than one party of players, but by the "WoW as life's Dictionary" it means 5 hours of banging your head against the wall with 39 other people, while people go afk, log off, go link dead, mess up etc until you hopefully get to see one of the 40 people get some form of useful reward. Even WoW is moving away from this definition in their future expansion, and I think that assuming that is what we plan for multiple group content in Conan is ignorant.
We have stated over and over that we want content for groups ranging from one to two people, to full teams of up to ten, to multiple groups. We have also made it very apparent that we want challenging content that can be there for all gamers that can still be approachable and make the game playable for those who do not have all the time in the world to spend playing MMO's
So if you want to answer them just tell them that "Just because they plan on putting in multiple group challenging content doesnt mean its going to be southpark world of warcraft :P"
This was posted today, specifically in reply to the quote from Jayde that was posted...
Getting it done with dev quotes, baby!
Of all that is written, I love only what a person has written with his own blood. -Nietzsche
Ok, here is my question: Will we have to do large PvE raids in order to obtain the very best stuff? (stuff being anything that makes your character more powerfull).
In the past I have seen statements from the devs which pretty solidly indicated that we would have to or that that is their own personal philosphy of mmorpg design.
I still haven't seen any clear, unambiguous statement to the contrary.
Sturmrabe, you provided another quote but I still don't see the answer to my question in it. Maybe my reading comprehension is lacking. So help me out here. Pick out the line or lines in this latest quote which clearly state that players who never do PvE raids will be able to aquire stuff (items, spells, materials for crafting, or whatever) which is fully equal to the stuff that raiders will be able to obtain.
Pick it out for me and requote it in big red letters for my poor simple mind because I just can't find it.
I'm going to dissect this latest quote. My analysis of what is being said is in italics throughout the text.
Originally posted by Sturmrabe
Athelan:
The statement is also out of context since it was in reply to another "dont ever have raids in Conan plz" thread.
-----Irrelevant statement meant to belittle the intelligence of your opponent.
The term "raid" by definition of MMO's could mean any encounter that involves more than one party of players
-----Doesn't answer my question.
, but by the "WoW as life's Dictionary"
-----More belittleing of opponents intelligence.
it means 5 hours of banging your head against the wall with 39 other people, while people go afk, log off, go link dead, mess up etc until you hopefully get to see one of the 40 people get some form of useful reward.
-----Still doesn't answer my question.
Even WoW is moving away from this definition in their future expansion,
-----Good for WoW. If I wanted to know about WoW I'd be in a WoW forum.
and I think that assuming that is what we plan for multiple group content in Conan is ignorant.
-----Enough of subtle belittlement now we'll call the guy ignorant.
We have stated over and over that we want content for groups ranging from one to two people, to full teams of up to ten, to multiple groups.
-----Fine, there will be all kinds of content. But this still doesn't answer my question. All PvE raid-centric games can claim to have content for solo and small groups. Stating that this is also true in AoC doesn't tell me a damn thing.
We have also made it very apparent that we want challenging content that can be there for all gamers
-----Great hype, but it still doesn't answer my question.
that can still be approachable and make the game playable for those who do not have all the time in the world to spend playing MMO's
-----Some vague encouragement for casual players without commiting to anything specific. And it still doesn't answer my question.
So if you want to answer them just tell them that "Just because they plan on putting in multiple group challenging content doesnt mean its going to be southpark world of warcraft :P"
-----And wrap it all up with a little more dismissive belittlement.
This was posted today, specifically in reply to the quote from Jayde that was posted...
Getting it done with dev quotes, baby!
So let's just assume that I'm a special needs kid and you guys need to help me out here. Please find the part of that quote which answers the question at hand.
Personally, I take that latest quote as clear confirmation that there will be raiding and you will have to do it or be second-rate. When the devs and fans go out of their way to dodge around a simple question, the smart money is that they're dodging because they know you won't like the real answer.
NM, you just want a specific answer spoonfed to you, why don't you just go to the AoC forums and ask the devs, I'm sure one way or the other they'll answer... well, they haven't been as spammy of late but they usually do reply themselves...
And it all depends what you mean by "large raids" as well... I've also been told by a dev that some of the best loot in the game will be acquired by letting the Picts build up a city in your territory and then siege it just like you would a player battlekeep in an PvP area, and you can keep them weakened to just a shitty encampment, but if you let them get to the point where they start attacking your city, then go burn theirs to the ground, you will get some of the best loot to be had...
Would you consider that a "large raid"? It will probably take a long time and the majority of your gild/Clan like a city siege in Shadowbane...
It also depends on what you mean by the best gear in the game, if you are talking set gear/tier whatver/epic crap ala WoW, then its pretty clear that have every intention of avoiding that model
And Athelan is kind of an asshole anyway, we have gone round and round about the Barbarian class, so I guess I'm kind of used to that
Of all that is written, I love only what a person has written with his own blood. -Nietzsche
Sturmrabe, I went over to the official boards and read through that entire long post that you started about this. The one you pulled that most recent dev quote from. In that thread I saw at least one person point out exactly what I pointed out here; that the dev statement didn't really tell us anything.
I saw quite a few posts restating the question that concerns me. Will PvE raiding be the only way to get the best stuff? There are variations to the question. It can be stated more or less clearly. But from your own posts over there I think you understand well enough what I'm talking about.
At any rate there are plenty of people over there expressing concern about this issue. What good would it do for me to go over and start hounding the devs about it. I very much doubt that they would suddenly decide to give a clear and unambiguous statement about it just because I asked. If they won't give a clear answer to long standing community members why would they answer me?
And I have to agree with Pantastic. The very fact that they go to so much trouble to dodge the issue is pretty damning evidence in itself. If the sort of long, boring, time intensive PvE raiding that so many of us have learned to hate is not going to give an advantage to the people who are willing to do it then why won't the AoC devs just say so...clearly...in way that leaves no room for doubt or loopholes for them to wriggle through later when people call them on it if it turns out they lied.
You're right, I do want a specific answer spoonfed to me. The days when I would fall for BS hype and vague statements which imply things without committing to anything are long gone.
Never again. Never again will I fall for the BS and give my money to devs who screw me in the end (have fun with that if you like). Before I buy something I want to know EXACTLY what I'm paying for.
Well you can get right over that now if you ever plan on playing ANY MMO from ANY dev team ANYWHERE EVER, cause either they will say X is in and down't have time to implement it/it gets cut in beta/or the terms they used to describe it was to "insider" -as in THEY knew what it was and didn't use terms that people on the outside looking in can easily get the same picture from-...
Part of the problem with ME asking them all this crap is that in a hudnered different thread I've badgered them about this same subject and now they see it as me badgering them as...
I've badgered them about raids...
I fucking HATE raids, as I do NOT have the ability to dedicate a 6-8 hour block of time in one sitting. Not I"ve gone on small raids, I've even participated in an 8 hour seige in shadowbane, but that is not the same as a raid by any means...
I did get this out of Athelan:
If we intended raid items to over balance PvP why would we bother to make PvP specific combat stats and mods for items that mod those stats?
I know its not what you are after, but considering how many times and how many ways I've asked them about this a little exasperation is expected...
I'm not saying thats its OK to hide behind an NDA, that does have something to do with the amount of specifics.
Say what you will about whats been said, but nothing any other game I've seen has even given as much though to alternatives to raiding, not letting raid gear overbalance PvP and other stuff...
If they get it wrong they get it wrong, but they are trying, and thats a damn sight more than I can say for any other game with raiding I've ever seen... ALSO lets not forget they they have said that this game will not be NEARLY as item centric as other games, but thats not hard to do considering all the EQ type games you are nothing but a paperdoll for the equipment you have (and I include WoW in this), but even if its only slightly LESS item-centric thats still a step in the right direction
Of all that is written, I love only what a person has written with his own blood. -Nietzsche
Originally posted by Neanderthal Sturmrabe, I went over to the official boards and read through that entire long post that you started about this. The one you pulled that most recent dev quote from. In that thread I saw at least one person point out exactly what I pointed out here; that the dev statement didn't really tell us anything. I saw quite a few posts restating the question that concerns me. Will PvE raiding be the only way to get the best stuff? There are variations to the question. It can be stated more or less clearly. But from your own posts over there I think you understand well enough what I'm talking about. At any rate there are plenty of people over there expressing concern about this issue. What good would it do for me to go over and start hounding the devs about it. I very much doubt that they would suddenly decide to give a clear and unambiguous statement about it just because I asked. If they won't give a clear answer to long standing community members why would they answer me? And I have to agree with Pantastic. The very fact that they go to so much trouble to dodge the issue is pretty damning evidence in itself. If the sort of long, boring, time intensive PvE raiding that so many of us have learned to hate is not going to give an advantage to the people who are willing to do it then why won't the AoC devs just say so...clearly...in way that leaves no room for doubt or loopholes for them to wriggle through later when people call them on it if it turns out they lied. You're right, I do want a specific answer spoonfed to me. The days when I would fall for BS hype and vague statements which imply things without committing to anything are long gone. Never again. Never again will I fall for the BS and give my money to devs who screw me in the end (have fun with that if you like). Before I buy something I want to know EXACTLY what I'm paying for.
I'm in the same boat. I followed this game up until the point where I realized that raiding would be in, and that they haven't shown a screenshot or video clip or anything of a player fighting a player. These two things combined immediately makes me question the pvpness of this game as opposed to the pve, raid-centricness of this game.
I'm still waiting for a clear answer on raiding as well and for at least something visual that shows how their battle system works in a pvp setting. Until I am "spoonfed" the answers I'm not going to consider anything more than a free trial.
--------------------------------------------- I live to fight, and fight to live.
Sturm, I went and read the new posts on that thread and I still don't see an answer. Yeah, I saw that dev post about raid gear not being over balancing in PvP.
Take note of how the devs tend to use subjective terms like 'over balancing'. What the hell does that mean exactly? Does it mean that raid gear will be better for PvP than the gear you actually get from PvP but just a little bit better? How much better constitutes over balancing? 2X better? 3X?
It's very clever of them to use subjective terms like that because then later on they can say, "But remember...we told you <this>. If you didn't understand our meaning that's not our fault."
Get them to say "PvE raiding will not give the people who do it any advantage over the people who don't do it" or some equally unequivical statement and then you'll have some real ammunition to use in this debate. Untill then they're just blowing smoke up your arse.
Anyway, I'm getting a little tired of this for now. You play the game and find out which of us is right. A year or so after release if you were right you tell me about it and I'll concede I was wrong and will probably buy the game. But if it turns out that I'm right I hope that you will remember it in the future and keep it in mind when you are following some new game.
Untill then I will still tell people that AoC is PvE-raid-centric when I talk about it. Because I haven't been convinced otherwise.
Neanderthal, lets break it down into the unequivocable facts that have already been laid out.
1.) The best gear anywhere is crafted, this has been directly stated multiple times
2.) At least most of the best materials for said crafting come from the enemy NPC "hives" near the player resource cities. To get the best stuff, players allow the city to grow large, simply fending off the raiding parties it sends out, then siege the place.
3.) Raid items will be significantly less over balancing than other games, if it is at all, WOW in particular. The point that just how much less is unsaid is conceded for the time being.
4.) PvP equipment has its own table, entirely seperate from the PvE.
5.) Raid times are significantly shorter, they're aiming at 2-3 hours
6.) Raid equipment will be on roughly equal footing with the best, could be a little better, or a little worse.
What I get from the above mess is, if there is ANY advantage given to raiders, it will be rather pathetically small.
No man is an island, entire of itself; every man is a piece of the continent, a part of the main. any man's death diminishes me, because I am involved in mankind, and therefore never send to know for whom the bell tolls; it tolls for thee. Hemingway
B: even if they DID come right out and say it you wold probably justify your position some other way because thats what you to believe
C: While I cannot give you an absolute quote about where the best drops in the game are. saying AoC is "PvE raid centric" is pure willful ignorance as its been talked about in more threads than I care to look for and with more dev quotes than I can count that endgame will mainly focus on your player city, PVP/GvG sieges, and the PvP in the Border Kingom both around Battlekeeps and trying to gather resources without getting killed...
If you want to go to http://bymitra.com/ you can search all the dev quotes you want, but instead of using "raid" as your cearch criteria, try GvG, PvP, player city, towns, housing, etc (though individual housing itself will not be in at release, that search will also come up with a lot about Player Cities)
In fact ANY game that has had player cities, no matter what else there was as far as content, the central theme was always building, maintaining, and defending those cities...
Of all that is written, I love only what a person has written with his own blood. -Nietzsche
If the devs won't say it I won't believe it. Untill they make an unambiguous statement to the effect that PvE raids won't give the raiders an advantage all of your hopes are just wishfull thinking.
I can't change your minds and you can't change mine...unless the devs step up to the plate and stop mincing words.
I'll remember what you guys told me and I'll eat my serving of crow if I was wrong. All I ask is that you guys remember that I warned you.
Originally posted by Neanderthal If the devs won't say it I won't believe it. Untill they make an unambiguous statement to the effect that PvE raids won't give the raiders an advantage all of your hopes are just wishfull thinking. I can't change your minds and you can't change mine...unless the devs step up to the plate and stop mincing words. I'll remember what you guys told me and I'll eat my serving of crow if I was wrong. All I ask is that you guys remember that I warned you.
While I understand your position, I really do (fucking HATE raids), but my point C. above has been made completely clear by devs... wether or not PvP is unbalanced by PvE raid gear completely aside, the focus of endgames WILL be PvP sieges, player cities and Battlekeeps, by a far and away margin from rading (as a central focus of the game)
Of all that is written, I love only what a person has written with his own blood. -Nietzsche
Originally posted by Sturmrabe I did get this out of Athelan:
If we intended raid items to over balance PvP why would we bother to make PvP specific combat stats and mods for items that mod those stats?
Wow, that really settles it, I'm now willing to say that they are definately going to have raid items that over balance PvP items. When someone is completely unwilling to say yes or no to whether or not they'll do something, but is willing to ask a 'why would we do that' question in response, it means they're planning to do it and hope you get bogged down in silly arguments over what possible reason they would have to do it. Let's face it, Athelan could easily say 'No, we're not going to do that' or 'yes we are, here's why', asking us why he would take a course of action means he clearly is but doesn't want to admit it.
Originally posted by Sturmrabe If you want to go to http://bymitra.com/ you can search all the dev quotes you want, but instead of using "raid" as your cearch criteria, try GvG, PvP, player city, towns, housing, etc (though individual housing itself will not be in at release, that search will also come up with a lot about Player Cities)
Why bother doing that search though? It's still a just another raid game if the best gear for GvG, PvP, defending playercities, etc. is going to come from raids. It's obvious from the equivocation and dodges that the best gear in AOC will be obtained by raiding, just in this thread several of the defenders can only come up with 'well, it will be better but not overbalancing' or 'it will be better, but not as much better as some other games'. I was really excited about this game, even got a few friends interested, but all of us have written it off now that it's clearly just going to be yet another raid game. We all have 60s in WOW, if we wanted to raid we could reactivate accounts and go crazy with it.
Originally posted by Sturmrabe If you want to go to http://bymitra.com/ you can search all the dev quotes you want, but instead of using "raid" as your cearch criteria, try GvG, PvP, player city, towns, housing, etc (though individual housing itself will not be in at release, that search will also come up with a lot about Player Cities)
Why bother doing that search though? It's still a just another raid game if the best gear for GvG, PvP, defending playercities, etc. is going to come from raids. It's obvious from the equivocation and dodges that the best gear in AOC will be obtained by raiding, just in this thread several of the defenders can only come up with 'well, it will be better but not overbalancing' or 'it will be better, but not as much better as some other games'. I was really excited about this game, even got a few friends interested, but all of us have written it off now that it's clearly just going to be yet another raid game. We all have 60s in WOW, if we wanted to raid we could reactivate accounts and go crazy with it.
Dammit, get off your high horse. NOTHING is obvious at this point, thats the crux of the problem.
The ONLY possible way for Raid gear to be the best is if crafting materials come from raids, they have already stated on multiple occaisions that the best of CRAFTED gear WILL be the very best available, no hedging, dodging, or loopholes available in that particular statement.
No man is an island, entire of itself; every man is a piece of the continent, a part of the main. any man's death diminishes me, because I am involved in mankind, and therefore never send to know for whom the bell tolls; it tolls for thee. Hemingway
Originally posted by Aelfinn Dammit, get off your high horse. NOTHING is obvious at this point, thats the crux of the problem.
It's obvious to me that they decided to make yet another raiding game, if you want to ignore the signs that's fine but why else would the devs spend so much time talking about how raiding deserves special rewards and how great their raiding will be, and so much time equivocating over whether the game will be just another raid game or not when they could just answer directly? There have been questions about raids on their boards for months, and they've posted pages of material, but they won't answer the basic questions though they will provide weaselly stuff that sounds like an answer if you're not paying attention to detail.
The ONLY possible way for Raid gear to be the best is if crafting materials come from raids, they have already stated on multiple occaisions that the best of CRAFTED gear WILL be the very best available, no hedging, dodging, or loopholes available in that particular statement.
You say that like the idea of crafting materials from raids is some kind of weird and obscure idea that's never been done before, but I know WOW has crafting materials from raids and I think pretty much all raid games do. It's not some terribly unlikely thing, I would be suprised if there was no crafting material from raids in a raid game. It's like saying "The ONLY way this could be a raid game is if it does something that other raid games do", which is kind of silly as a rebuttal.
Plus that's not the ONLY possible way anyway, saying that it is is just plain absurd and says quite a bit about your position. Most obviously, you could be wrong about their statement (it's not quoted here), especially since quite a few people in this thread seem to be willfully ignorant of weasel words. Or they could have simply been lying (I don't think it's the case, but it's possible), they could have changed their minds since then, and a host of other possabilities.
Comments
Think that if you want, but there are plenty of other posts by other devs stressing that this is not going to be another raid fest...
And PvE gear won't help you for shit in PvP, there are seperate levels and skills for that, and even equipment bought with blood money.
Endgame is about GvG sieges, not raids, and I've been on those boards for well over a year now
Of all that is written, I love only what a person has written with his own blood. -Nietzsche
Check here for good info
And it doesn't even mention raiding, the PvP section will be of interest as it clearly stated that Pve and PvP are seperate systems
Of all that is written, I love only what a person has written with his own blood. -Nietzsche
Ok, Sturmrabe, I try to be fair when I discuss these things so I clicked your link and read through most of that stuff to update myself. I found nothing which contradicted my impression of the game. So if there was some specific thing which you wanted me to see maybe you could just copy and paste it here because I couldn't find it.
There was the stuff about player made items being good because they are the only items with sockets. The sockets allow you to attach gems to them which enhance them in various ways. Sounds great right? I already knew about that. But....here's a thought....have you ever stopped to ask yourself where the best gems are going to come from? Don't kid yourself, they will come from PvE raids. And in all likelyhood the materials you need to craft items that can be fitted with the best gems will also come from raids.
The content developer of the game said it himself....nobody would do large raids if they could get equal rewards from from other activities. And he made it pretty clear that he wants people to do large raids. So, one way or the other, you won't be getting top quality gear unless you dedicate yourself raiding.
Show me something that clearly refutes that.
Healthy skepticism is always, well...
healthy. Reading ones fears into a Dev post is, well... reading
ones fears into what someone has stated, and not taking things at face
value. At no point did Jayde state that large party raids would
receive the best loot or rarest craft components. He was merely
pointing out why large scale raids should still earn rewards. Did
he commit Funcom to having to put the best gear drops only in the large
RAID loot tables? Nope, not at all.
There are a
plethora of methods to entice participation in larger RAIDs. For
instance, let me interject a random theory which has no basis within reality yet is as equally valid as the theory of best gear = large RAID mentality:
This
is speculation, just as the "theory" that Funcom is ruining their game
by making the best equipment or craft components come from large RAID
encounters. Sorry folks both are simply theories. Take what
Jayde said at face value. If "Age of Conan: Hyborian Adventures"
has 40+ RAID encounters, those encounters should receive some reward
for their effort. Jayde's comments have been taken out of the
context in which they were delivered and people have read their fears
into them. Jayde's comments were specifically given as a response
to players asking for large RAID encounters not to issue any sort of
item reward.
In closing, the current information released
should point out that all gear has two sets of stats, one for PvE and
one for PvP. The best PvE item may be the worst item for PvP.
neanderthal: I just want you to know that I STARTED that thread on the AoC forums you quoted, and noone here is more anti-raid than I am! NO-ONE!But that info is out of context, he was defending raiding against rabid anti-raid posts, but it is clear that GvG and sieges and city building is the true end game content... here try this on for size:
jayde:
http://forums.ageofconan.com/showthread.php?p=287575#post287575
Athelan:
http://forums.ageofconan.com/showthread.php?p=284835#post284835They won't be worthless in PvP, but they won't be the only way to compete in PvP for certain...
That being said, I have a fear of ALL MMO's moving towards raid=endgame bullshit... but its obvious in this game that endgame= GvG sieges... and that is the aspect that kept me playing Shadowbane despite innumerable faults.
Of all that is written, I love only what a person has written with his own blood. -Nietzsche
I don't know what you guys are seeing but I still haven't seen anything that contradicts my understanding that you will have to do raids to get the best stuff.
And you guys say I took that quote out of context. I don't want to go off on some silly finger pointing tangent but I hardly think that that was a fair attack on the point I was trying to get across. I couldn't very well copy and paste the whole thread, and if I did no one would want to read it all.
I could have just copied that one line that I bolded but I copied the entire post specifically to avoid taking things out of context. Other than that I don't know what more I could realistically do to keep things in context.
Strumrabe, I'm really tempted to dissect those quotes you provided but I don't have the time right this minute. But let me point out that nowhere in any of it did they directly say that you can get the very best items without raiding.
Before reading those quotes pose to yourself the question; "Will I have to do raids to get the best stuff." Now go through the quotes and see if you can find one line that clearly indicates that NO you won't have to. I couldn't find it.
I found, "I see no reason to worry."
------Yeah, well, I see plenty of reason to worry.
And I found, "At the high-end, however, the best enhanced versions of items or recipes will occasionally require components that drops from mobs instead of just being gathered."
------Uh, define 'occassionally' and explain specifically what mobs in what type of content. This doesn't answer anything. At best it's just a way of vaguelly saying, "Raid for the best stuff" but without actually coming right out and saying it.
These devs have learned to talk like politicians. If you ask a politician, "Are you going to raise our taxes?" They will say something like, "Tax hikes are not currently a priority I am considering." Or, "I know that nobody likes having their taxes raised." Which doesn't really answer the question.
Ack, and there I went starting to dissect it. I have to go for now but I'll check back either later tonight or tommorrow.
I have noticed that Aoc devs "beat around the bush" if you will. You really do need to search and search for the correct information and answers to your questions. Back on topic, I think that they probably will have raid items and odds are they will be the "best" in the game seeing as if the best items in the game were easily obtainable everyone would have them. Of course I don't have a zillion quotes to back that up like some people...
Again, there will be raids.
How much clearer do I need to be?
There will be raids to get either items or materials you need to craft to make some of the best stuff in the game.
BUT there will be both alternates to raiding, and raiding that is not in the "40 man, 8 hour" formula...
Of all that is written, I love only what a person has written with his own blood. -Nietzsche
Athelan:
This was posted today, specifically in reply to the quote from Jayde that was posted...Getting it done with dev quotes, baby!
Of all that is written, I love only what a person has written with his own blood. -Nietzsche
Personally, I take that latest quote as clear confirmation that there will be raiding and you will have to do it or be second-rate. When the devs and fans go out of their way to dodge around a simple question, the smart money is that they're dodging because they know you won't like the real answer.
Ok, well let me analyze YOUR post for a second:
NM, you just want a specific answer spoonfed to you, why don't you just go to the AoC forums and ask the devs, I'm sure one way or the other they'll answer... well, they haven't been as spammy of late but they usually do reply themselves...
And it all depends what you mean by "large raids" as well... I've also been told by a dev that some of the best loot in the game will be acquired by letting the Picts build up a city in your territory and then siege it just like you would a player battlekeep in an PvP area, and you can keep them weakened to just a shitty encampment, but if you let them get to the point where they start attacking your city, then go burn theirs to the ground, you will get some of the best loot to be had...
Would you consider that a "large raid"? It will probably take a long time and the majority of your gild/Clan like a city siege in Shadowbane...
It also depends on what you mean by the best gear in the game, if you are talking set gear/tier whatver/epic crap ala WoW, then its pretty clear that have every intention of avoiding that model
And Athelan is kind of an asshole anyway, we have gone round and round about the Barbarian class, so I guess I'm kind of used to that
Of all that is written, I love only what a person has written with his own blood. -Nietzsche
Sturmrabe, I went over to the official boards and read through that entire long post that you started about this. The one you pulled that most recent dev quote from. In that thread I saw at least one person point out exactly what I pointed out here; that the dev statement didn't really tell us anything.
I saw quite a few posts restating the question that concerns me. Will PvE raiding be the only way to get the best stuff? There are variations to the question. It can be stated more or less clearly. But from your own posts over there I think you understand well enough what I'm talking about.
At any rate there are plenty of people over there expressing concern about this issue. What good would it do for me to go over and start hounding the devs about it. I very much doubt that they would suddenly decide to give a clear and unambiguous statement about it just because I asked. If they won't give a clear answer to long standing community members why would they answer me?
And I have to agree with Pantastic. The very fact that they go to so much trouble to dodge the issue is pretty damning evidence in itself. If the sort of long, boring, time intensive PvE raiding that so many of us have learned to hate is not going to give an advantage to the people who are willing to do it then why won't the AoC devs just say so...clearly...in way that leaves no room for doubt or loopholes for them to wriggle through later when people call them on it if it turns out they lied.
You're right, I do want a specific answer spoonfed to me. The days when I would fall for BS hype and vague statements which imply things without committing to anything are long gone.
Never again. Never again will I fall for the BS and give my money to devs who screw me in the end (have fun with that if you like). Before I buy something I want to know EXACTLY what I'm paying for.
Well you can get right over that now if you ever plan on playing ANY MMO from ANY dev team ANYWHERE EVER, cause either they will say X is in and down't have time to implement it/it gets cut in beta/or the terms they used to describe it was to "insider" -as in THEY knew what it was and didn't use terms that people on the outside looking in can easily get the same picture from-...
Part of the problem with ME asking them all this crap is that in a hudnered different thread I've badgered them about this same subject and now they see it as me badgering them as...
I've badgered them about raids...
I fucking HATE raids, as I do NOT have the ability to dedicate a 6-8 hour block of time in one sitting.
Not I"ve gone on small raids, I've even participated in an 8 hour seige in shadowbane, but that is not the same as a raid by any means...
I did get this out of Athelan:
I know its not what you are after, but considering how many times and how many ways I've asked them about this a little exasperation is expected...I'm not saying thats its OK to hide behind an NDA, that does have something to do with the amount of specifics.
Look at page 12 of that thread:
Check out my posts and the dev replies
Say what you will about whats been said, but nothing any other game I've seen has even given as much though to alternatives to raiding, not letting raid gear overbalance PvP and other stuff...
If they get it wrong they get it wrong, but they are trying, and thats a damn sight more than I can say for any other game with raiding I've ever seen... ALSO lets not forget they they have said that this game will not be NEARLY as item centric as other games, but thats not hard to do considering all the EQ type games you are nothing but a paperdoll for the equipment you have (and I include WoW in this), but even if its only slightly LESS item-centric thats still a step in the right direction
Of all that is written, I love only what a person has written with his own blood. -Nietzsche
I'm in the same boat. I followed this game up until the point where I realized that raiding would be in, and that they haven't shown a screenshot or video clip or anything of a player fighting a player. These two things combined immediately makes me question the pvpness of this game as opposed to the pve, raid-centricness of this game.
I'm still waiting for a clear answer on raiding as well and for at least something visual that shows how their battle system works in a pvp setting. Until I am "spoonfed" the answers I'm not going to consider anything more than a free trial.
---------------------------------------------
I live to fight, and fight to live.
LOL
Ok man, but raids are pretty much in every MMO so if thats all it takes I guess its FPS's for you...
Yes they are in, but their are plently of alternatives...
And as far as PvP, that all most of the Dev team does in the beta, so I'm not worried about that at all...
Of all that is written, I love only what a person has written with his own blood. -Nietzsche
Sturm, I went and read the new posts on that thread and I still don't see an answer. Yeah, I saw that dev post about raid gear not being over balancing in PvP.
Take note of how the devs tend to use subjective terms like 'over balancing'. What the hell does that mean exactly? Does it mean that raid gear will be better for PvP than the gear you actually get from PvP but just a little bit better? How much better constitutes over balancing? 2X better? 3X?
It's very clever of them to use subjective terms like that because then later on they can say, "But remember...we told you <this>. If you didn't understand our meaning that's not our fault."
Get them to say "PvE raiding will not give the people who do it any advantage over the people who don't do it" or some equally unequivical statement and then you'll have some real ammunition to use in this debate. Untill then they're just blowing smoke up your arse.
Anyway, I'm getting a little tired of this for now. You play the game and find out which of us is right. A year or so after release if you were right you tell me about it and I'll concede I was wrong and will probably buy the game. But if it turns out that I'm right I hope that you will remember it in the future and keep it in mind when you are following some new game.
Untill then I will still tell people that AoC is PvE-raid-centric when I talk about it. Because I haven't been convinced otherwise.
Neanderthal, lets break it down into the unequivocable facts that have already been laid out.
1.) The best gear anywhere is crafted, this has been directly stated multiple times
2.) At least most of the best materials for said crafting come from the enemy NPC "hives" near the player resource cities. To get the best stuff, players allow the city to grow large, simply fending off the raiding parties it sends out, then siege the place.
3.) Raid items will be significantly less over balancing than other games, if it is at all, WOW in particular. The point that just how much less is unsaid is conceded for the time being.
4.) PvP equipment has its own table, entirely seperate from the PvE.
5.) Raid times are significantly shorter, they're aiming at 2-3 hours
6.) Raid equipment will be on roughly equal footing with the best, could be a little better, or a little worse.
What I get from the above mess is, if there is ANY advantage given to raiders, it will be rather pathetically small.
No man is an island, entire of itself; every man is a piece of the continent, a part of the main. any man's death diminishes me, because I am involved in mankind, and therefore never send to know for whom the bell tolls; it tolls for thee.
Hemingway
A: you arn't the only one tired of this
B: even if they DID come right out and say it you wold probably justify your position some other way because thats what you to believe
C: While I cannot give you an absolute quote about where the best drops in the game are. saying AoC is "PvE raid centric" is pure willful ignorance as its been talked about in more threads than I care to look for and with more dev quotes than I can count that endgame will mainly focus on your player city, PVP/GvG sieges, and the PvP in the Border Kingom both around Battlekeeps and trying to gather resources without getting killed...
If you want to go to http://bymitra.com/ you can search all the dev quotes you want, but instead of using "raid" as your cearch criteria, try GvG, PvP, player city, towns, housing, etc (though individual housing itself will not be in at release, that search will also come up with a lot about Player Cities)
In fact ANY game that has had player cities, no matter what else there was as far as content, the central theme was always building, maintaining, and defending those cities...
Of all that is written, I love only what a person has written with his own blood. -Nietzsche
If the devs won't say it I won't believe it. Untill they make an unambiguous statement to the effect that PvE raids won't give the raiders an advantage all of your hopes are just wishfull thinking.
I can't change your minds and you can't change mine...unless the devs step up to the plate and stop mincing words.
I'll remember what you guys told me and I'll eat my serving of crow if I was wrong. All I ask is that you guys remember that I warned you.
Of all that is written, I love only what a person has written with his own blood. -Nietzsche
Wow, that really settles it, I'm now willing to say that they are definately going to have raid items that over balance PvP items. When someone is completely unwilling to say yes or no to whether or not they'll do something, but is willing to ask a 'why would we do that' question in response, it means they're planning to do it and hope you get bogged down in silly arguments over what possible reason they would have to do it. Let's face it, Athelan could easily say 'No, we're not going to do that' or 'yes we are, here's why', asking us why he would take a course of action means he clearly is but doesn't want to admit it.
Why bother doing that search though? It's still a just another raid game if the best gear for GvG, PvP, defending playercities, etc. is going to come from raids. It's obvious from the equivocation and dodges that the best gear in AOC will be obtained by raiding, just in this thread several of the defenders can only come up with 'well, it will be better but not overbalancing' or 'it will be better, but not as much better as some other games'. I was really excited about this game, even got a few friends interested, but all of us have written it off now that it's clearly just going to be yet another raid game. We all have 60s in WOW, if we wanted to raid we could reactivate accounts and go crazy with it.
Why bother doing that search though? It's still a just another raid game if the best gear for GvG, PvP, defending playercities, etc. is going to come from raids. It's obvious from the equivocation and dodges that the best gear in AOC will be obtained by raiding, just in this thread several of the defenders can only come up with 'well, it will be better but not overbalancing' or 'it will be better, but not as much better as some other games'. I was really excited about this game, even got a few friends interested, but all of us have written it off now that it's clearly just going to be yet another raid game. We all have 60s in WOW, if we wanted to raid we could reactivate accounts and go crazy with it.
Dammit, get off your high horse. NOTHING is obvious at this point, thats the crux of the problem.
The ONLY possible way for Raid gear to be the best is if crafting materials come from raids, they have already stated on multiple occaisions that the best of CRAFTED gear WILL be the very best available, no hedging, dodging, or loopholes available in that particular statement.
No man is an island, entire of itself; every man is a piece of the continent, a part of the main. any man's death diminishes me, because I am involved in mankind, and therefore never send to know for whom the bell tolls; it tolls for thee.
Hemingway
It's obvious to me that they decided to make yet another raiding game, if you want to ignore the signs that's fine but why else would the devs spend so much time talking about how raiding deserves special rewards and how great their raiding will be, and so much time equivocating over whether the game will be just another raid game or not when they could just answer directly? There have been questions about raids on their boards for months, and they've posted pages of material, but they won't answer the basic questions though they will provide weaselly stuff that sounds like an answer if you're not paying attention to detail.
You say that like the idea of crafting materials from raids is some kind of weird and obscure idea that's never been done before, but I know WOW has crafting materials from raids and I think pretty much all raid games do. It's not some terribly unlikely thing, I would be suprised if there was no crafting material from raids in a raid game. It's like saying "The ONLY way this could be a raid game is if it does something that other raid games do", which is kind of silly as a rebuttal.
Plus that's not the ONLY possible way anyway, saying that it is is just plain absurd and says quite a bit about your position. Most obviously, you could be wrong about their statement (it's not quoted here), especially since quite a few people in this thread seem to be willfully ignorant of weasel words. Or they could have simply been lying (I don't think it's the case, but it's possible), they could have changed their minds since then, and a host of other possabilities.