Originally posted by VengeSunsoar I really don't feel there is any significant difference between skill based systems and level based systems. In levels your practice or grind to get to another level, and in skill you practice or grind to get a higher skill. They involve exactly the same activities to get to exactly the same point. The only difference is the name. However a classless system or multiclass system I like. Venge Sunsoar
The difference at hand, and I have said this to many of my friends in various level based games, is that you stay connected. In UO, at any moment, anytime of day, at any skill level I could also go out and adventure with my guildmates regardless! I never had to worry if I was the same level or near a certain level, everyone pitched in no matter how effective they were. In every level based game I have played, I continue to get further and further behind from my friends and less conected. Its not like the days ago, back before I was married and no kids... but then again I am not a kid like most here who have the time.
The skill based system made sense too. The more you do something, the better you are at it. I have never in my life all of a sudden got infinate wisdom to unlocking the powers of video editing because I ground my way through graphic design. Bad example but gives you an idea of how unrealistic level based games are. *rant* I miss the old UO, back before the "l33t" ganking festival thats now present. People don't understand what PvP really is and today its being thrown around as a selling point for most MMO's. The PvP people seem to want today is a FPS PvP, just mindless whacking people, but with swords... in UO there was PvP, but it had a more dignified purpose, and wasn't thought of the way we think of it today. *end old guy rant*
" I never had to worry if I was the same level or near a certain level, everyone pitched in no matter how effective they were"
that is how i felt playing SWG before the level based system went in. Frankly I loved it. I could play with my buddy who was end game, another who was midgame and myself who was a newb. Kept your friends connected.
As it stands I have many friends begging me to come play whatever game, WoW more often than not, but they are lvl 60 characters. How am I playing with them? I'm not, well not for at least a few months of diehard gaming to catch up. I'm not saying that Level based isnt fun either, I am a nostalgic fanboy of EQ, But I cannot help but agree with the quote above, and I certainly use this as a measure before I buy a new game.
Originally posted by Anageth Brrrrr, incorrect! Ultima Online will beat that hands down.
Brrrrr, Ultima is dead.
Guild Wars on the other hand is rockin'...and has a new expansion/stand-alone game coming out which will push the number of totally unique skills available to over 1000!! And that's TOTALLY unique skills, not Fireball 1, Fireball 2, etc., nearly all of the 1000 skills have between 12 and 16 levels of power (which can be altered by attributes of the character) and you can basically use every single skill of the 1000 on ANY ONE character (with about 130 being from the main prof and able to be "levelled" to the max of 16)...the genious twist being you can only use 8 skills at any one time, thus providing strategy and tactics in abundance.
Originally posted by Anageth Brrrrr, incorrect! Ultima Online will beat that hands down.
Brrrrr, Ultima is dead.
Guild Wars on the other hand is rockin'...and has a new expansion/stand-alone game coming out which will push the number of totally unique skills available to over 1000!! And that's TOTALLY unique skills, not Fireball 1, Fireball 2, etc., nearly all of the 1000 skills have between 12 and 16 levels of power (which can be altered by attributes of the character) and you can basically use every single skill of the 1000 on ANY ONE character (with about 130 being from the main prof and able to be "levelled" to the max of 16)...the genious twist being you can only use 8 skills at any one time, thus providing strategy and tactics in abundance.
What's Ultima got in comparison?
A real MMORPG world.
What greater tribute to free will than the power to question the highest of authority? What greater display of loyalty than blind faith? What greater gift than free will? What greater love than loyalty?
Originally posted by hadz Originally posted by Anageth Brrrrr, incorrect! Ultima Online will beat that hands down.
Brrrrr, Ultima is dead.
Guild Wars on the other hand is rockin'...and has a new expansion/stand-alone game coming out which will push the number of totally unique skills available to over 1000!! And that's TOTALLY unique skills, not Fireball 1, Fireball 2, etc., nearly all of the 1000 skills have between 12 and 16 levels of power (which can be altered by attributes of the character) and you can basically use every single skill of the 1000 on ANY ONE character (with about 130 being from the main prof and able to be "levelled" to the max of 16)...the genious twist being you can only use 8 skills at any one time, thus providing strategy and tactics in abundance.
What's Ultima got in comparison?
Not really, Factions sales were very poor compared to Guild Wars.
Originally posted by hadz Guild Wars...no better skill system than that. You want "practicing" instead of leveling...that's the game.
I think he wants more in a game than just soem skills. GW is lacking in terms of everything else. Good for soem mind you but ...if this guy likes UO...GW isnt the answer.
I loved UO skill based system over level based systems. I agree that it probably has something to do with programming and balance.
Basically in level based systems, to balance all you have to do is make 1 entire tree equal to another. So basically an entire tree could have say 1 super powerful skill and 9 prerequisite terrible skills, and that could be balanced with another tree that has say 10 average skills but no one super powerful skill. This is much easier then trying to balance every single skill equally.
Like in early UO before paladins, having some magery was basically required for everyone. The line was just too useful mainly because travel required it. Compare that to say herding, even if you tried to balance it, herding would still be a niche skill compared to a powerful magery skill.
I think the early UO designers were just geniuses of thier time.
i'm against overall character levels, because i think levels create unfair PvP and are just an easy way to keep people addicted to their game. levels are purely time-based, so ... the level of a character in an mmorpg is basically synchronized with how many hours they've logged into the game
i do think skills are good though, because they make you and your character unique. although i think the best skill system is one where practicing a skill increases your effectiveness with it, noticeably but not ridiculously, (ex: if you're trying to level up your "constitution", going from 100 HP to 160 HP is cool, but being able to go from 100 HP to 800 HP is well, fantastic, but how does that affect the fairness of PvP combat?), and not using that skill for a while should cause the skill to degrade, like in real life. you get weak and out of shape when you stop working out, and get rusty at playing guitar when you stop practicing, etc. that said, i don't think practicing skills in games should be a mechanical action that anyone can easily make a macro for. what kind of game is it if "constructing", is putting ingredients in a window, choosing your tool, and clicking Construct, and waiting X minutes to see if it fails or succeeds? i think every skill should actively involve input from the player, whether it be hand-eye-coordination, aim, intelligence, tactics, steadiness, speed, etc... my opinion anyway, i'd rather rely on things like that instead of how long i've been logged into the game.
think i'm rambling.. well i like skill-based games if it's done right, and not really a fan of levels. yyyeah.
Originally posted by Brainy I think the early UO designers were just geniuses of thier time.
The only real shame is modern devs haven't learned from it.
What greater tribute to free will than the power to question the highest of authority? What greater display of loyalty than blind faith? What greater gift than free will? What greater love than loyalty?
Phantasy Star Universe just came out. That's not a "click on target and auto attack until one of you is dead" game, it's true real time combat.
Course, the bad thing about PSU is that it's made by Sega so there are a metric ton of small minor problems and annoyances. If you do plan on getting PSU I highly suggest getting the PS2 version. The PC version is just a bad port of the PS2 version and the XBox 360 is on seperate servers.
Originally posted by Gameloading Originally posted by hadz Originally posted by Anageth Brrrrr, incorrect! Ultima Online will beat that hands down.
Brrrrr, Ultima is dead.
Guild Wars on the other hand is rockin'...and has a new expansion/stand-alone game coming out which will push the number of totally unique skills available to over 1000!! And that's TOTALLY unique skills, not Fireball 1, Fireball 2, etc., nearly all of the 1000 skills have between 12 and 16 levels of power (which can be altered by attributes of the character) and you can basically use every single skill of the 1000 on ANY ONE character (with about 130 being from the main prof and able to be "levelled" to the max of 16)...the genious twist being you can only use 8 skills at any one time, thus providing strategy and tactics in abundance.
What's Ultima got in comparison?
Not really, Factions sales were very poor compared to Guild Wars. Nightfall is now live, though, and I predict much higher sales relative to Factions. Dunno about releative to prophecies, but I think it may rival it. However Factions was still the number 1 selling PC game for a little while this year.
Originally posted by Gorukha Problem with open ended skill systems is how easy it is to gimp a character. This is why companies veer towards the holding your hands policy. Also open ended systems are usually and almsot always flawed in that even though you can put points into anything you want mathematically there will be an equation that will be the Uber Build. Every skill based system had it starting with AC, DaoC(uber classes,uber skill sets), many other games. So wtf is the point of giving a choice when that choice is inheritantly flawed and will only cause a ton of disgruntled customers ?
I'll disagree - in a skill-based game like Ryzom you cannot gimp your character! You may have less skill in an area, but if you focus on that area, you can raise your skills. [Who are these boneheads that "up" their skills?]
I will agree that there are always some skills that are more useful than others. I can't think of any way around that fact, unless perhaps to make the speed of skill increase greater for less valuable skills.
Why get a choice?!!! That's akin to saying,"Why vote?"...oh, uh, maybe you DO have a point there
Comments
The skill based system made sense too. The more you do something, the better you are at it. I have never in my life all of a sudden got infinate wisdom to unlocking the powers of video editing because I ground my way through graphic design. Bad example but gives you an idea of how unrealistic level based games are. *rant* I miss the old UO, back before the "l33t" ganking festival thats now present. People don't understand what PvP really is and today its being thrown around as a selling point for most MMO's. The PvP people seem to want today is a FPS PvP, just mindless whacking people, but with swords... in UO there was PvP, but it had a more dignified purpose, and wasn't thought of the way we think of it today. *end old guy rant*
" I never had to worry if I was the same level or near a certain level, everyone pitched in no matter how effective they were"
that is how i felt playing SWG before the level based system went in. Frankly I loved it. I could play with my buddy who was end game, another who was midgame and myself who was a newb. Kept your friends connected.
As it stands I have many friends begging me to come play whatever game, WoW more often than not, but they are lvl 60 characters. How am I playing with them? I'm not, well not for at least a few months of diehard gaming to catch up. I'm not saying that Level based isnt fun either, I am a nostalgic fanboy of EQ, But I cannot help but agree with the quote above, and I certainly use this as a measure before I buy a new game.
Brrrrr, Ultima is dead.
Guild Wars on the other hand is rockin'...and has a new expansion/stand-alone game coming out which will push the number of totally unique skills available to over 1000!! And that's TOTALLY unique skills, not Fireball 1, Fireball 2, etc., nearly all of the 1000 skills have between 12 and 16 levels of power (which can be altered by attributes of the character) and you can basically use every single skill of the 1000 on ANY ONE character (with about 130 being from the main prof and able to be "levelled" to the max of 16)...the genious twist being you can only use 8 skills at any one time, thus providing strategy and tactics in abundance.
What's Ultima got in comparison?
Brrrrr, Ultima is dead.
Guild Wars on the other hand is rockin'...and has a new expansion/stand-alone game coming out which will push the number of totally unique skills available to over 1000!! And that's TOTALLY unique skills, not Fireball 1, Fireball 2, etc., nearly all of the 1000 skills have between 12 and 16 levels of power (which can be altered by attributes of the character) and you can basically use every single skill of the 1000 on ANY ONE character (with about 130 being from the main prof and able to be "levelled" to the max of 16)...the genious twist being you can only use 8 skills at any one time, thus providing strategy and tactics in abundance.
What's Ultima got in comparison?
A real MMORPG world.
What greater tribute to free will than the power to question the highest of authority? What greater display of loyalty than blind faith? What greater gift than free will? What greater love than loyalty?
Brrrrr, Ultima is dead.
Guild Wars on the other hand is rockin'...and has a new expansion/stand-alone game coming out which will push the number of totally unique skills available to over 1000!! And that's TOTALLY unique skills, not Fireball 1, Fireball 2, etc., nearly all of the 1000 skills have between 12 and 16 levels of power (which can be altered by attributes of the character) and you can basically use every single skill of the 1000 on ANY ONE character (with about 130 being from the main prof and able to be "levelled" to the max of 16)...the genious twist being you can only use 8 skills at any one time, thus providing strategy and tactics in abundance.
What's Ultima got in comparison?
Not really, Factions sales were very poor compared to Guild Wars.
I loved UO skill based system over level based systems. I agree that it probably has something to do with programming and balance.
Basically in level based systems, to balance all you have to do is make 1 entire tree equal to another. So basically an entire tree could have say 1 super powerful skill and 9 prerequisite terrible skills, and that could be balanced with another tree that has say 10 average skills but no one super powerful skill. This is much easier then trying to balance every single skill equally.
Like in early UO before paladins, having some magery was basically required for everyone. The line was just too useful mainly because travel required it. Compare that to say herding, even if you tried to balance it, herding would still be a niche skill compared to a powerful magery skill.
I think the early UO designers were just geniuses of thier time.
i'm against overall character levels, because i think levels create unfair PvP and are just an easy way to keep people addicted to their game. levels are purely time-based, so ... the level of a character in an mmorpg is basically synchronized with how many hours they've logged into the game
i do think skills are good though, because they make you and your character unique. although i think the best skill system is one where practicing a skill increases your effectiveness with it, noticeably but not ridiculously, (ex: if you're trying to level up your "constitution", going from 100 HP to 160 HP is cool, but being able to go from 100 HP to 800 HP is well, fantastic, but how does that affect the fairness of PvP combat?), and not using that skill for a while should cause the skill to degrade, like in real life. you get weak and out of shape when you stop working out, and get rusty at playing guitar when you stop practicing, etc. that said, i don't think practicing skills in games should be a mechanical action that anyone can easily make a macro for. what kind of game is it if "constructing", is putting ingredients in a window, choosing your tool, and clicking Construct, and waiting X minutes to see if it fails or succeeds? i think every skill should actively involve input from the player, whether it be hand-eye-coordination, aim, intelligence, tactics, steadiness, speed, etc... my opinion anyway, i'd rather rely on things like that instead of how long i've been logged into the game.
think i'm rambling.. well i like skill-based games if it's done right, and not really a fan of levels. yyyeah.
What greater tribute to free will than the power to question the highest of authority? What greater display of loyalty than blind faith? What greater gift than free will? What greater love than loyalty?
Phantasy Star Universe just came out. That's not a "click on target and auto attack until one of you is dead" game, it's true real time combat.
Course, the bad thing about PSU is that it's made by Sega so there are a metric ton of small minor problems and annoyances. If you do plan on getting PSU I highly suggest getting the PS2 version. The PC version is just a bad port of the PS2 version and the XBox 360 is on seperate servers.
Luckily there are different games so you can choose one that suits you.
Pre-CU SWG FTW!
NGE Refugee.
Brrrrr, Ultima is dead.
Guild Wars on the other hand is rockin'...and has a new expansion/stand-alone game coming out which will push the number of totally unique skills available to over 1000!! And that's TOTALLY unique skills, not Fireball 1, Fireball 2, etc., nearly all of the 1000 skills have between 12 and 16 levels of power (which can be altered by attributes of the character) and you can basically use every single skill of the 1000 on ANY ONE character (with about 130 being from the main prof and able to be "levelled" to the max of 16)...the genious twist being you can only use 8 skills at any one time, thus providing strategy and tactics in abundance.
What's Ultima got in comparison?
Not really, Factions sales were very poor compared to Guild Wars.
Nightfall is now live, though, and I predict much higher sales relative to Factions. Dunno about releative to prophecies, but I think it may rival it. However Factions was still the number 1 selling PC game for a little while this year.
I'll disagree - in a skill-based game like Ryzom you cannot gimp your character! You may have less skill in an area, but if you focus on that area, you can raise your skills. [Who are these boneheads that "up" their skills?]
I will agree that there are always some skills that are more useful than others. I can't think of any way around that fact, unless perhaps to make the speed of skill increase greater for less valuable skills.
Why get a choice?!!! That's akin to saying,"Why vote?"...oh, uh, maybe you DO have a point there
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