Apparently MMORPG.com is being paid to rank GW 3 times, there is no other logical explanation, because it's the same MMOG concept in all 3 releases, instancing, instancing, instancing.
The thing is, Arena net plans to release 1 expansion ever 6 months. That means that by next year, we will have 5 GW titles. the year after it, we will have 7 GW titles. I think it simply has to stop before it gets out of hand.
Originally posted by Gameloading The thing is, Arena net plans to release 1 expansion ever 6 months. That means that by next year, we will have 5 GW titles. the year after it, we will have 7 GW titles. I think it simply has to stop before it gets out of hand.
And that my friendis when things will really start to get interesting. Again, to me it doesn't matter and i think it is fair because they are complete stand-alone games, but at some point mmorpg.com will have to have the top 10 ranking for GW then the rest of the MMO genre.
"It is easier to be cruel than wise. The road to wisdom is long and difficult... so most people just turn out to be assholes" Feng (Christopher Walken)
Originally posted by Anofalye I have no problem with it been listed for each different release, however, on the "top X MMOs", only the highest value should be taken into account, the lowest values should be ignored. Otherwise having a TOP X become useless, where in fact, you have a top2. If someone dislike any of the 3 versions of GW, there are little chance that another version is going to appeal them, since they are quite similar. I mean, if I do a TOP X best strategic games and it read as... 1- Civ IV 95% 2- GalCiv 2 93% 3- CiV IV: Warlords 92% 4- CiV IV: *new expansion coming soon, so I don't want to invent a title* 90% 5- GalCiv 90% 6- Cilisation III and so on... It is unfair for original games such as Total War, Massive Assault and more...which definitely deserve to be put between the best version and any expansion of the franchise...
I agree. The thing most of these people take issue with isn't as much the fact that each chapter is listed separately as much as how it affects the Top X list.
Originally posted by CyberWiz Originally posted by Kingstonex3 Guild Wars in the rank list is just fair, it has quite a large population and the graphics are good and the its no subscription.. don't need to spend my scarce bucks. lol
I accepted that Guild Wars is ranked a long time ago, but why 3 times for the same game ( same online world )
Now if the 3 Guild Wars expansions would have been played on seperate serves, well THEN it would have been a whole different story.
But it isnt, it is the same game.
Whether or not they are on different servers shouldn't matter to the player. The fact is, each chapter is its own continent with its own story line. I fail to see how the story of Shiro in the Factions campaign is even slightly related to anything in the other two chapters. The game engine is the same, yes, but a person that buys only Nightfall won't get to travel to Tyria or Cantha and experience the story or content from those.
Anyone that has played all 3 chapters knows there are pros and cons to each campaign. If all chapters were merged under one entry, it wouldn't fairly rate each chapter. If a person was mainly into PvE and ended up buying Factions because they saw a single GW entry rated highly, they'd probably be disappointed. But hey, it's all the same game right?
I think the suggestion that they just pick the highest rated one and show that on the Top X list is the best solution I've seen so far. The chapters can be listed separately on the full game list, but limit it on the home page.
I really don't understand the need to rank the games seperately. It would be like having a rating for every major expansion a company releases. I understand that each of these games being "stand alone" copies is what created the multiple rankings but it is the same game. This is not a valid reason because players can occupy the same servers as each other. I also don't think City of Villains needs a seperate listing either.
On the other side, it's not that big of a deal. It just makes the MMORPG game list slightly more bothersome to wade through. And it breaks the top 7 MMOs listed on the front page.
Guild Wars is my game, I love it, it has exactly what I want in an mmorpg although I realize it isn't for everyone - that's why there are other games
Anyway, I don't think GW needs to be listed on the main page more than once because, and let's be honest, they are all Guild Wars and follow the same basic premise. The only thing different here is the business model Anet has develloped, which I think is awesome as I would rather own a game than pay for a service.
As for which chapter is better, maybe it would be nice to see some sort of pinned poll in the GW forum so that people who may not know about the different chapters could see the differences and nuances between the different games. For the record I thought Factions was awesome.
As Dulok stated, and keeping with the original question, it is quite simple.
Each GW game is a single game in itself. They aren't expansions, they are standalone. You don't need to have the original Proph. GW to play if you picked up GW factions, or Nightfall, etc etc. If you have all 3, or two of the three, it simply allows you to take your character you've spent the time on into another storyline, a different world if you will. Certainly GW is able to be listed 3 times on the rankings.
Saying GW can't be listed three times simply because you are able to travel between games (not expansions), is like saying every Final Fantasy game we grew up with was never anything different, simply because Cid and his airships show up constantly. come on.. how many airships and how old is that guy by now..
Oh.. and if you really really have togo by those rankings to see what you want to try out.. and you're REALLY mad that GW is taking up three of those spots... hit game list and sort it out by rating.. really, it's not that tough.
Originally posted by MarkusD Guild Wars is my game, I love it, it has exactly what I want in an mmorpg although I realize it isn't for everyone - that's why there are other games
Anyway, I don't think GW needs to be listed on the main page more than once because, and let's be honest, they are all Guild Wars and follow the same basic premise. The only thing different here is the business model Anet has develloped, which I think is awesome as I would rather own a game than pay for a service.
As for which chapter is better, maybe it would be nice to see some sort of pinned poll in the GW forum so that people who may not know about the different chapters could see the differences and nuances between the different games. For the record I thought Factions was awesome.
my $0.02
At least one Guild Wars fan that can admit this is wrong.
Like he says, it is just a different business model, but they are still expansions.
And yah same goes for City of Heroes and City of Villains
If you are interested in subscription or PCU numbers for MMORPG's, check out my site : http://mmodata.blogspot.be/ Favorite MMORPG's : DAoC pre ToA-NF, SWG Pre CU-NGE, EVE Online
Originally posted by Juicebox As Dulok stated, and keeping with the original question, it is quite simple. Each GW game is a single game in itself. They aren't expansions, they are standalone. You don't need to have the original Proph. GW to play if you picked up GW factions, or Nightfall, etc etc. If you have all 3, or two of the three, it simply allows you to take your character you've spent the time on into another storyline, a different world if you will. Certainly GW is able to be listed 3 times on the rankings. Saying GW can't be listed three times simply because you are able to travel between games (not expansions), is like saying every Final Fantasy game we grew up with was never anything different, simply because Cid and his airships show up constantly. come on.. how many airships and how old is that guy by now.. Oh.. and if you really really have togo by those rankings to see what you want to try out.. and you're REALLY mad that GW is taking up three of those spots... hit game list and sort it out by rating.. really, it's not that tough.
Hmm your logic is flawed ...
The only real difference between GW Expansions and "standard" MMORPG Expansions is that GW Expansions do not require previous Expansions. They DO however require the same "base" game AND the same online world.
So in effect, if there are other mmorpg's that do not require previous expansions, then they are different games?
Thus, you should rank DAoC standard and DAoC classic seperatly. Because DAoC classic is DAoC + Shrouded Isles, while DAoC standard is DAoC + All expansions.
They are actually 2 different games, because they not only have different expansions, they even have different servers.
Thus I request that mmorpg.com rates DAoC and DAoC Classic seperatly.
Oh and yes you can buy both DAOC packages seperatly from eachother.
Greetings,
Cyberwiz.
If you are interested in subscription or PCU numbers for MMORPG's, check out my site : http://mmodata.blogspot.be/ Favorite MMORPG's : DAoC pre ToA-NF, SWG Pre CU-NGE, EVE Online
Also what I have been hearing alot from people that think it is right to rank GW 3 times, is that they have different stories, and it may be possible that 1 of the expansions is not as good as another.
But that is exactly the same way as with regular expansions, because you are not obligated to buy mmorpg expansions, so you can have many people not buying a certain expansions because it received a bad rating. But we dont see every normal mmorpg expansion listed seperatly do we?
Greetings,
Cyberwiz.
If you are interested in subscription or PCU numbers for MMORPG's, check out my site : http://mmodata.blogspot.be/ Favorite MMORPG's : DAoC pre ToA-NF, SWG Pre CU-NGE, EVE Online
For the people that want to help my case, anyone know other mmorpg's that have expansions that do not require previous expansions? Because if we find those, they should be listed and ranked seperatly as well, according to the logic of mmorpg.com ( I already mentioned DAoC ).
If you are interested in subscription or PCU numbers for MMORPG's, check out my site : http://mmodata.blogspot.be/ Favorite MMORPG's : DAoC pre ToA-NF, SWG Pre CU-NGE, EVE Online
Originally posted by CyberWiz Originally posted by Juicebox As Dulok stated, and keeping with the original question, it is quite simple. Each GW game is a single game in itself. They aren't expansions, they are standalone. You don't need to have the original Proph. GW to play if you picked up GW factions, or Nightfall, etc etc. If you have all 3, or two of the three, it simply allows you to take your character you've spent the time on into another storyline, a different world if you will. Certainly GW is able to be listed 3 times on the rankings. Saying GW can't be listed three times simply because you are able to travel between games (not expansions), is like saying every Final Fantasy game we grew up with was never anything different, simply because Cid and his airships show up constantly. come on.. how many airships and how old is that guy by now.. Oh.. and if you really really have togo by those rankings to see what you want to try out.. and you're REALLY mad that GW is taking up three of those spots... hit game list and sort it out by rating.. really, it's not that tough.
Hmm your logic is flawed ...
The only real difference between GW Expansions and "standard" MMORPG Expansions is that GW Expansions do not require previous Expansions. They DO however require the same "base" game AND the same online world.
So in effect, if there are other mmorpg's that do not require previous expansions, then they are different games?
Thus, you should rank DAoC standard and DAoC classic seperatly. Because DAoC classic is DAoC + Shrouded Isles, while DAoC standard is DAoC + All expansions.
They are actually 2 different games, because they not only have different expansions, they even have different servers.
Thus I request that mmorpg.com rates DAoC and DAoC Classic seperatly.
Oh and yes you can buy both DAOC packages seperatly from eachother.
Greetings,
Cyberwiz.
Cyberwiz,
Great that you took the time to make an educated answer back (sure beats responding to forum trolls saying you suck) but my logic is not flawed.
I do see your point about DAoC.. but the only problem with your comparison and your request to mmorpg.com, is exactly what I stated in my post. If I went to any games store and wanted to play Guild Wars, I could choose any of the 3 titles they have. Only purchasing one of those games would enable me to play the game that I bought, without having to buy the 'starter' game.
With DAoC, (and you're right, they can be bought seperate) every one of those boxes comes with the DAoC. I'm staring at every expansion DAoC has come out with (standalone expansion boxes, not epic edition, etc) and on the back of each box it specifically states (and I quote) "Requires Subscription and original Dark Age of Camelot to play" That quote on the box of each expansion is stating you have bought an expansion. (mind you, other than when they come out with a new expansion, they discontinue selling the expansion alone until they slap together the platinum edition, epic, etc. containing the original game and all the expansions to date"
So all in all, I'm sure my logic is quite fine. You do not need to have the original first game Guild Wars came out with, to play factions, or nightfall. Not one Guild Wars title requires you to have any of the other two to play their game. It only requires you buy them if you care to play a new story, new classes, mildly changed looking races, and attain the new armor models. DAoC Requires you to have boughten an original copy/game bundle to play any of their expansions..
Don't think I've overlooked what you said. I do know that DAoC has its classic and standard servers, but really.. its the same game, just with ToA taken out. Still requires you to have the original game.. and that's really what this arguement is about. What's an expansion and what isn't. It's like classifying WoW servers as their own game simply because some you have to type /pvp to flag yourself, and other servers you're ganked looking at the cute bunny rabbit. Or ... ok let me make a great comparison to clear this up.
Everquest 1.
They just came out with, let's call it a 'game' for now, their latest release. It introduces a brand new race. New starting city, new starting noob zones, but wait... you go to PoK and click the Gfay stone, but the game stares back at you not changing the scene. Why? Because its an "Expansion". Now we go to example #2:
Guild Wars Nightfall.
You create your character, play through the entire story line, get your fancy lil green item.. and what's that? Credits start to roll. The game is complete. But how is this possible? It's the third game title of Guild Wars, yet without owning the previous two, you have just beaten the game. Hmm.. I think maybe because it's NOT an expansion. Player then goes to the store and returns home with the other two Guild Wars titles. Plays through each of them separately, and beats each one with out ever touching a cross over at any point, nor relying on any of them to help him/her to do it.
The only reason I can see people calling Guild Wars factions and nightfall an expansion, is simply that they're all owned by the same company. I could see mistaking them for expansions because they contain new character classes, or that you can take your character from any of the three titles, back and forth through each title, but that still doesn't make it an expansion. Simply put, an expansion (in game terms) is a new content filled game pack that REQUIRES the original game. Guild Wars requires nor is dependant on each of its titles.
(note, I am the furthest thing from a GW 'fanboi', just didn't think a simple definition of a word could cause so much confusion over such a simple question. Don't get me wrong, if you feel GW shouldn't be listed three seperate times, all the power to you, but find a valid point to make your arguement)
edit: Just a quick note I forgot to mention... Guild Wars may have the same base game (coding, graphics, etc etc)but any company would be stupid to change it from game title to game title *cough* swg *cough* but it certainly does not have the same online game world... have you even played GW? Every title is a compeltely different setting. Or are you basing your 'same online game world' because its on the same server?
Originally posted by Juicebox As Dulok stated, and keeping with the original question, it is quite simple. Each GW game is a single game in itself. They aren't expansions, they are standalone. You don't need to have the original Proph. GW to play if you picked up GW factions, or Nightfall, etc etc. If you have all 3, or two of the three, it simply allows you to take your character you've spent the time on into another storyline, a different world if you will. Certainly GW is able to be listed 3 times on the rankings. Saying GW can't be listed three times simply because you are able to travel between games (not expansions), is like saying every Final Fantasy game we grew up with was never anything different, simply because Cid and his airships show up constantly. come on.. how many airships and how old is that guy by now.. Oh.. and if you really really have togo by those rankings to see what you want to try out.. and you're REALLY mad that GW is taking up three of those spots... hit game list and sort it out by rating.. really, it's not that tough.
Hmm your logic is flawed ...
The only real difference between GW Expansions and "standard" MMORPG Expansions is that GW Expansions do not require previous Expansions. They DO however require the same "base" game AND the same online world.
So in effect, if there are other mmorpg's that do not require previous expansions, then they are different games?
Thus, you should rank DAoC standard and DAoC classic seperatly. Because DAoC classic is DAoC + Shrouded Isles, while DAoC standard is DAoC + All expansions.
They are actually 2 different games, because they not only have different expansions, they even have different servers.
Thus I request that mmorpg.com rates DAoC and DAoC Classic seperatly.
Oh and yes you can buy both DAOC packages seperatly from eachother.
Greetings,
Cyberwiz.
Cyberwiz,
Great that you took the time to make an educated answer back (sure beats responding to forum trolls saying you suck) but my logic is not flawed.
I do see your point about DAoC.. but the only problem with your comparison and your request to mmorpg.com, is exactly what I stated in my post. If I went to any games store and wanted to play Guild Wars, I could choose any of the 3 titles they have. Only purchasing one of those games would enable me to play the game that I bought, without having to buy the 'starter' game.
With DAoC, (and you're right, they can be bought seperate) every one of those boxes comes with the DAoC. I'm staring at every expansion DAoC has come out with (standalone expansion boxes, not epic edition, etc) and on the back of each box it specifically states (and I quote) "Requires Subscription and original Dark Age of Camelot to play" That quote on the box of each expansion is stating you have bought an expansion. (mind you, other than when they come out with a new expansion, they discontinue selling the expansion alone until they slap together the platinum edition, epic, etc. containing the original game and all the expansions to date"
So all in all, I'm sure my logic is quite fine. You do not need to have the original first game Guild Wars came out with, to play factions, or nightfall. Not one Guild Wars title requires you to have any of the other two to play their game. It only requires you buy them if you care to play a new story, new classes, mildly changed looking races, and attain the new armor models. DAoC Requires you to have boughten an original copy/game bundle to play any of their expansions..
Don't think I've overlooked what you said. I do know that DAoC has its classic and standard servers, but really.. its the same game, just with ToA taken out. Still requires you to have the original game.. and that's really what this arguement is about. What's an expansion and what isn't. It's like classifying WoW servers as their own game simply because some you have to type /pvp to flag yourself, and other servers you're ganked looking at the cute bunny rabbit. Or ... ok let me make a great comparison to clear this up.
Everquest 1. They just came out with, let's call it a 'game' for now, their latest release. It introduces a brand new race. New starting city, new starting noob zones, but wait... you go to PoK and click the Gfay stone, but the game stares back at you not changing the scene. Why? Because its an "Expansion". Now we go to example #2:
Guild Wars Nightfall. You create your character, play through the entire story line, get your fancy lil green item.. and what's that? Credits start to roll. The game is complete. But how is this possible? It's the third game title of Guild Wars, yet without owning the previous two, you have just beaten the game. Hmm.. I think maybe because it's NOT an expansion. Player then goes to the store and returns home with the other two Guild Wars titles. Plays through each of them separately, and beats each one with out ever touching a cross over at any point, nor relying on any of them to help him/her to do it.
The only reason I can see people calling Guild Wars factions and nightfall an expansion, is simply that they're all owned by the same company. I could see mistaking them for expansions because they contain new character classes, or that you can take your character from any of the three titles, back and forth through each title, but that still doesn't make it an expansion. Simply put, an expansion (in game terms) is a new content filled game pack that REQUIRES the original game. Guild Wars requires nor is dependant on each of its titles.
(note, I am the furthest thing from a GW 'fanboi', just didn't think a simple definition of a word could cause so much confusion over such a simple question. Don't get me wrong, if you feel GW shouldn't be listed three seperate times, all the power to you, but find a valid point to make your arguement)
Hmm okay you have some points there.
Of course, one of the main problems is that Guildwars is not a mmorpg, also the argument that you can "finish" each box of guildwars seperatly is not valid, because a real mmorpg can not be "finished" in the traditional meaning of the word.
But I was just researching Everquest ( the original ) and there you do not need previous expansions to play a game.
There are many EQ expansions that have a different background story in it.
So you say, that the day EQ repackages their base game + an expansion, and do this for each expansion, then EQ has 12 stand alone games?
I feel that this seperate listing, and especially seperate ratings are based on some technicalites and differences in marketing strategies. And not because they really are seperate games. They are just different parts of the same game.
Greetings,
Cyberwiz
If you are interested in subscription or PCU numbers for MMORPG's, check out my site : http://mmodata.blogspot.be/ Favorite MMORPG's : DAoC pre ToA-NF, SWG Pre CU-NGE, EVE Online
I don't think you're seeing his point, you don't need an original to play guild wars, you dont have to experience the same content in GW Proph as you do Factions or nightfall when you first start out.
All other MMO's, every single one requires the original released game, PLUS the expansion.
EverQuest Classic The Ruins of Kunark expansion The Scars of Velious expansion The Shadows of Luclin expansion The Planes of Power expansion The Legacy of Ykesha extension The Lost Dungeons of Norrath expansion Gates of Discord expansion
Titanium
Includes :
EverQuest Classic The Ruins of Kunark® expansion The Scars of Velious® expansion The Shadows of Luclin expansion The Planes of Power expansion The Legacy of Ykesha extension The Lost Dungeons of Norrath expansion Gates of Discord expansion Dragons of Norrath expansion Omens of War expansion Depths of Darkhollowexpansion
Now what if, SOE thinks, hmm, we wanna get ranked 12 times on mmorpg.com, so we need to repackage :
EverquestA ( EQ classic + The ruins of kunark )
EverquestB ( EQ classic + The scars of velious )
EverquestC ( EQ classic + The shadows of lucin )
etc etc
So then these would all be rated seperatly as "standalone" games?
Greetings,
Cyberwiz.
If you are interested in subscription or PCU numbers for MMORPG's, check out my site : http://mmodata.blogspot.be/ Favorite MMORPG's : DAoC pre ToA-NF, SWG Pre CU-NGE, EVE Online
Originally posted by Vindicoth To the poster above me
I don't think you're seeing his point, you don't need an original to play guild wars, you dont have to experience the same content in GW Proph as you do Factions or nightfall when you first start out.
All other MMO's, every single one requires the original released game, PLUS the expansion.
Guild wars doesnt require an original game.
read my post above ...
Guild wars DOES need the original game.
The only difference is that the base game and the expansion are integrated and sold as 1.
So like I said before, if Everquest would package their classic game + expansion X then it would be a standalone game.
Then they repackage all and they have 12 standalone games.
So do you agree that 12 packages of Everquest ( EQ classic + Expansion X ) would be the same as the 3 packages of guildwars, and if not, why not?
Greetings,
Cyberwiz.
If you are interested in subscription or PCU numbers for MMORPG's, check out my site : http://mmodata.blogspot.be/ Favorite MMORPG's : DAoC pre ToA-NF, SWG Pre CU-NGE, EVE Online
I did not state that Everquest requires you to have one expansion before you can play another. What I said was, and which you so helped my point by stating in your post about Everquest Platinum, etc. is each time it states it comes with Everquest Classic. That is the original game, and that comes with every bundle because it is the REQUIREMENT to play any of the expansions. Hell even the PoK expansion they eventually gave part of it free to every player simply because it made travel easier. (they gave everyone access to the Plane of Knowledge, but none of the extra's like PoV, PoT, etc etc)
I thought before you had maybe misread or mistaken what I had said, but clearly you missed the whole point of my postings, and the original question. It's not about you need/don't need this expansion to play that expansion. The WHOLE point we're all talking about is :
Is GuildWars three seperate games, or one game with two expansions., hence does it deserve 3 spots on the ranking list.
I'm simply stating my opinion that it should be allowed and my reasoning behind it (read carefully now) because GuildWars DOES NOT require any of the three games for you to be able to pick up and play any single one of them. That in my definition (and what I thought was the universal view on what makes an expansion) between standalone games vs. expansions.
I too Cyberwiz, have the everquest original box, the trillogy box, shadows of luclin box, and every box after that because I still play it. But everytime I tack on a new expansion, it just wouldn't work without everquest original. I have all three GW games too, but bought, played, and beat each one before the next came out.
Yes, the typical definition of an mmo is there is no end to it... but lets face it. Give me an mmo without an ending that's hidden and typically called the 'last boss' who everyone farms until the company tosses you some more content? You beat Everquest everytime you kill the last, toughest boss availiable at the time, and you don't get a reward other than the pleasure of fighting over the loot and having to do it all again and again until you get another boss or twenty. You're left to farm, gear your guild out, and be ready for the next set of baddies thrown your way. GW acts the same in the sense that you beat the last boss availiable, get some loot, and then you're tossed back into the same world with nothing left to do but farm.
Certainly there's more to a game than farming, everquest gives you trade skills,monster missions for fun and exp, guildwars gives you worldwide pvp and challenge missions to become the best at. (whether its good or bad, lets just use pvp loosely to avoid any further arguing)
Case and point, if we go by standard definitions of what makes an expansion and expansion, GW is 3 seperate games. So to the OP of this whole thread, my 2 cents which haven't changed through this whole misunderstood mess, is yes, I think they should be allowed to post it 3 times because they are seperate games, not a game with 2 expansions. And CyberWiz.. please make sure you understand what it is we're talking about here. Not only have I tried to correct you, but so did someone else. Not trying to be mean! Just trying to save you from making yourself look like an ass
Edit : While typing this post you went and made yourself look like an ass.. GuildWars does NOT require prophecies to play factions or nightfall... do some homework cause I'm done with ya Seriously.. I didn't wanna say it, but you kinda went and did it yourself.
Juicebox, your argument relies only on the fact that in Guildwars the base game and the expansion are integrated as 1 ( and this for each expansion ofc )
Where in EQ the orginal game was seperate and all the stand alone expansions are also seperate.
If SoE would have integrated the original game and each stand alone expansion into a package they would have had exactly the same as Guildwars.
I call that a techicality and therefore I find it unfair that guildwars has their games listed 3 times, while for exmaple EQ has not.
If you are interested in subscription or PCU numbers for MMORPG's, check out my site : http://mmodata.blogspot.be/ Favorite MMORPG's : DAoC pre ToA-NF, SWG Pre CU-NGE, EVE Online
What it comes down to is what you define as an expansion:
A) If you are required to own versions of pre-expansions or a "base" game to play the "new" game.
A game that adds content to a world or set of servers that already exist. If you can interact in anyway with a player on the "new" game then it is an expansion and not a different MMORPG.
According to A, the three version of GW are different, new games. According to B, they are not. I choose B because it makes more sense to me.
Originally posted by Juicebox Edit : While typing this post you went and made yourself look like an ass.. GuildWars does NOT require prophecies to play factions or nightfall... do some homework cause I'm done with ya Seriously.. I didn't wanna say it, but you kinda went and did it yourself.
Err, I did not say that you need prophecies to play factions or nightfall.
I said "you need the base game" to play any of the 3 partsl, meaning, they are all 3 based on the same base game code.
If you are interested in subscription or PCU numbers for MMORPG's, check out my site : http://mmodata.blogspot.be/ Favorite MMORPG's : DAoC pre ToA-NF, SWG Pre CU-NGE, EVE Online
If Everquest would be repackaged as "Everquest Classic + Expansion X" x 12 times.
What would be different between that and 3 guildwars packages?
If you are interested in subscription or PCU numbers for MMORPG's, check out my site : http://mmodata.blogspot.be/ Favorite MMORPG's : DAoC pre ToA-NF, SWG Pre CU-NGE, EVE Online
No one can purchase DAoC expansions, and play them without the original. That does NOT include buying the bundled epic, platinum, etc. editions because they contain the original DAoC. You cannot buy the Everquest shadows of luclin expansion, and play it without everquest the original. That also does not include bundled version of the game since the bundles platinum, evolution, etc. also contain the original Everquest game as you so helpfully stated defeating your own point, and completely made yourself look like an ass by stating it a few times.
ANYONE can purchase GW Nightfall, and play the nightfall game without buying proph, or factions. ANYONE can do the same by buying factions, play through factions, but never the others because they ARE NOT expansions.
Rack it up to a 'technicallity' if you must, but you answered your own question. Why did SoE NOT package their games like that? Because they simply state all over their site everytime a new EXPANSION is announced. It is an EXPANSION. They release their games in bundles simply to not make the consumer pay $30 or more for every expansion to date. Think about it, EQ has what, 12 expansion now + the original? 12x$30 to a new player who wants to join the game... OR bundle it all up, pay $30 bucks and get them all...
Hmmm what oh what would be a better business choice. Snag people at $30 for your game and expansions, also collecting their monthly fees, or turning new players away by saying, "If you want to join your friends in the new lands, please pay $360 plus your monthly fees."
So really, what you're saying is, is that SoE should say "Hey we have a new game!" but really it's just a bundled version of their game and expansions, and then hope that their dreams aren't crushed because they didn't take 12 spots on the ranking list? They made a choice to call their own game expansions. GW made a choice to create 3 different games based on their ideas. They are sold to players who can pick and choose which one or two or all three they want, but they certainly aren't cramming each one down your throat because you need one to play the other.
Comments
Apparently MMORPG.com is being paid to rank GW 3 times, there is no other logical explanation, because it's the same MMOG concept in all 3 releases, instancing, instancing, instancing.
"It is easier to be cruel than wise. The road to wisdom is long and difficult... so most people just turn out to be assholes" Feng (Christopher Walken)
I accepted that Guild Wars is ranked a long time ago, but why 3 times for the same game ( same online world )
Now if the 3 Guild Wars expansions would have been played on seperate serves, well THEN it would have been a whole different story.
But it isnt, it is the same game.
Whether or not they are on different servers shouldn't matter to the player. The fact is, each chapter is its own continent with its own story line. I fail to see how the story of Shiro in the Factions campaign is even slightly related to anything in the other two chapters. The game engine is the same, yes, but a person that buys only Nightfall won't get to travel to Tyria or Cantha and experience the story or content from those.
Anyone that has played all 3 chapters knows there are pros and cons to each campaign. If all chapters were merged under one entry, it wouldn't fairly rate each chapter. If a person was mainly into PvE and ended up buying Factions because they saw a single GW entry rated highly, they'd probably be disappointed. But hey, it's all the same game right?
I think the suggestion that they just pick the highest rated one and show that on the Top X list is the best solution I've seen so far. The chapters can be listed separately on the full game list, but limit it on the home page.
would be like having a rating for every major expansion a company
releases. I understand that each of these games being "stand alone"
copies is what created the multiple rankings but it is the same game.
This is not a valid reason because players can occupy the same servers
as each other. I also don't think City of Villains needs a seperate
listing either.
On the other side, it's not that big of a deal. It just makes the
MMORPG game list slightly more bothersome to wade through. And it
breaks the top 7 MMOs listed on the front page.
Anyway, I don't think GW needs to be listed on the main page more than once because, and let's be honest, they are all Guild Wars and follow the same basic premise. The only thing different here is the business model Anet has develloped, which I think is awesome as I would rather own a game than pay for a service.
As for which chapter is better, maybe it would be nice to see some sort of pinned poll in the GW forum so that people who may not know about the different chapters could see the differences and nuances between the different games. For the record I thought Factions was awesome.
my $0.02
As Dulok stated, and keeping with the original question, it is quite simple.
Each GW game is a single game in itself. They aren't expansions, they are standalone. You don't need to have the original Proph. GW to play if you picked up GW factions, or Nightfall, etc etc. If you have all 3, or two of the three, it simply allows you to take your character you've spent the time on into another storyline, a different world if you will. Certainly GW is able to be listed 3 times on the rankings.
Saying GW can't be listed three times simply because you are able to travel between games (not expansions), is like saying every Final Fantasy game we grew up with was never anything different, simply because Cid and his airships show up constantly.
come on.. how many airships and how old is that guy by now..
Oh.. and if you really really have togo by those rankings to see what you want to try out.. and you're REALLY mad that GW is taking up three of those spots... hit game list and sort it out by rating.. really, it's not that tough.
At least one Guild Wars fan that can admit this is wrong.
Like he says, it is just a different business model, but they are still expansions.
And yah same goes for City of Heroes and City of Villains
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Hmm your logic is flawed ...
The only real difference between GW Expansions and "standard" MMORPG Expansions is that GW Expansions do not require previous Expansions. They DO however require the same "base" game AND the same online world.
So in effect, if there are other mmorpg's that do not require previous expansions, then they are different games?
Thus, you should rank DAoC standard and DAoC classic seperatly. Because DAoC classic is DAoC + Shrouded Isles, while DAoC standard is DAoC + All expansions.
They are actually 2 different games, because they not only have different expansions, they even have different servers.
Thus I request that mmorpg.com rates DAoC and DAoC Classic seperatly.
Oh and yes you can buy both DAOC packages seperatly from eachother.
Greetings,
Cyberwiz.
If you are interested in subscription or PCU numbers for MMORPG's, check out my site :
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Favorite MMORPG's : DAoC pre ToA-NF, SWG Pre CU-NGE, EVE Online
Also what I have been hearing alot from people that think it is right to rank GW 3 times, is that they have different stories, and it may be possible that 1 of the expansions is not as good as another.
But that is exactly the same way as with regular expansions, because you are not obligated to buy mmorpg expansions, so you can have many people not buying a certain expansions because it received a bad rating. But we dont see every normal mmorpg expansion listed seperatly do we?
Greetings,
Cyberwiz.
If you are interested in subscription or PCU numbers for MMORPG's, check out my site :
http://mmodata.blogspot.be/
Favorite MMORPG's : DAoC pre ToA-NF, SWG Pre CU-NGE, EVE Online
If you are interested in subscription or PCU numbers for MMORPG's, check out my site :
http://mmodata.blogspot.be/
Favorite MMORPG's : DAoC pre ToA-NF, SWG Pre CU-NGE, EVE Online
Hmm your logic is flawed ...
The
only real difference between GW Expansions and "standard"
MMORPG Expansions is that GW Expansions do not require previous
Expansions. They DO however require the same "base" game AND the same
online world.
So in effect, if there are other mmorpg's that do not require previous expansions, then they are different games?
Thus,
you should rank DAoC standard and DAoC classic seperatly. Because DAoC
classic is DAoC + Shrouded Isles, while DAoC standard is DAoC + All
expansions.
They are actually 2 different games, because they not only have different expansions, they even have different servers.
Thus I request that mmorpg.com rates DAoC and DAoC Classic seperatly.
Oh and yes you can buy both DAOC packages seperatly from eachother.
Greetings,
Cyberwiz.
Cyberwiz,
Great that you took the time to make an educated answer back (sure
beats responding to forum trolls saying you suck) but my logic is not
flawed.
I do see your point about DAoC.. but the only
problem with your comparison and your request to mmorpg.com, is exactly
what I stated in my post. If I went to any games store and wanted
to play Guild Wars, I could choose any of the 3 titles they have. Only
purchasing one of those games would enable me to play the game that I
bought, without having to buy the 'starter' game.
With
DAoC, (and you're right, they can be bought seperate) every one of
those boxes comes with the DAoC. I'm staring at every expansion DAoC
has come out with (standalone expansion boxes, not epic edition, etc)
and on the back of each box it specifically states (and I quote)
"Requires Subscription and original Dark Age of Camelot to play"
That quote on the box of each expansion is stating you have bought an
expansion. (mind you, other than when they come out with a new
expansion, they discontinue selling the expansion alone until they slap
together the platinum edition, epic, etc. containing the original game
and all the expansions to date"
So all in all, I'm sure my
logic is quite fine. You do not need to have the original first game
Guild Wars came out with, to play factions, or nightfall. Not one Guild
Wars title requires you to have any of the other two to play their
game. It only requires you buy them if you care to play a new story,
new classes, mildly changed looking races, and attain the new armor
models. DAoC Requires you to have boughten an original copy/game
bundle to play any of their expansions..
Don't think I've
overlooked what you said. I do know that DAoC has its classic and
standard servers, but really.. its the same game, just with ToA taken
out. Still requires you to have the original game.. and that's really
what this arguement is about. What's an expansion and what isn't. It's
like classifying WoW servers as their own game simply because some you
have to type /pvp to flag yourself, and other servers you're ganked
looking at the cute bunny rabbit. Or ... ok let me make a great
comparison to clear this up.
Everquest 1.
They just came out with, let's call it a
'game' for now, their latest release. It introduces a brand new race.
New starting city, new starting noob zones, but wait... you go to PoK
and click the Gfay stone, but the game stares back at you not changing
the scene. Why? Because its an "Expansion". Now we go to example
#2:
Guild Wars Nightfall.
You create your character, play through the entire story line, get your
fancy lil green item.. and what's that? Credits start to roll. The game
is complete. But how is this possible? It's the third game title of
Guild Wars, yet without owning the previous two, you have just beaten
the game. Hmm.. I think maybe because it's NOT an expansion.
Player then goes to the store and returns home with the other two Guild
Wars titles. Plays through each of them separately, and beats each one
with out ever touching a cross over at any point, nor relying on any of
them to help him/her to do it.
The only reason I can see
people calling Guild Wars factions and nightfall an expansion, is
simply that they're all owned by the same company. I could see
mistaking them for expansions because they contain new character
classes, or that you can take your character from any of the three
titles, back and forth through each title, but that still doesn't make
it an expansion. Simply put, an expansion (in game terms) is a new
content filled game pack that REQUIRES the original game. Guild Wars
requires nor is dependant on each of its titles.
(note, I
am the furthest thing from a GW 'fanboi', just didn't think a simple
definition of a word could cause so much confusion over such a simple
question. Don't get me wrong, if you feel GW shouldn't be listed three
seperate times, all the power to you, but find a valid point to make
your arguement)
edit:
Just a quick note I forgot to mention... Guild Wars may have the same
base game (coding, graphics, etc etc)but any company would be stupid to
change it from game title to game title *cough* swg *cough* but it
certainly does not have the same online game world... have you even
played GW? Every title is a compeltely different setting. Or are you
basing your 'same online game world' because its on the same server?
Hmm your logic is flawed ...
The only real difference between GW Expansions and "standard" MMORPG Expansions is that GW Expansions do not require previous Expansions. They DO however require the same "base" game AND the same online world.
So in effect, if there are other mmorpg's that do not require previous expansions, then they are different games?
Thus, you should rank DAoC standard and DAoC classic seperatly. Because DAoC classic is DAoC + Shrouded Isles, while DAoC standard is DAoC + All expansions.
They are actually 2 different games, because they not only have different expansions, they even have different servers.
Thus I request that mmorpg.com rates DAoC and DAoC Classic seperatly.
Oh and yes you can buy both DAOC packages seperatly from eachother.
Greetings,
Cyberwiz.
Cyberwiz,
Great that you took the time to make an educated answer back (sure beats responding to forum trolls saying you suck) but my logic is not flawed.
I do see your point about DAoC.. but the only problem with your comparison and your request to mmorpg.com, is exactly what I stated in my post. If I went to any games store and wanted to play Guild Wars, I could choose any of the 3 titles they have. Only purchasing one of those games would enable me to play the game that I bought, without having to buy the 'starter' game.
With DAoC, (and you're right, they can be bought seperate) every one of those boxes comes with the DAoC. I'm staring at every expansion DAoC has come out with (standalone expansion boxes, not epic edition, etc) and on the back of each box it specifically states (and I quote) "Requires Subscription and original Dark Age of Camelot to play" That quote on the box of each expansion is stating you have bought an expansion. (mind you, other than when they come out with a new expansion, they discontinue selling the expansion alone until they slap together the platinum edition, epic, etc. containing the original game and all the expansions to date"
So all in all, I'm sure my logic is quite fine. You do not need to have the original first game Guild Wars came out with, to play factions, or nightfall. Not one Guild Wars title requires you to have any of the other two to play their game. It only requires you buy them if you care to play a new story, new classes, mildly changed looking races, and attain the new armor models. DAoC Requires you to have boughten an original copy/game bundle to play any of their expansions..
Don't think I've overlooked what you said. I do know that DAoC has its classic and standard servers, but really.. its the same game, just with ToA taken out. Still requires you to have the original game.. and that's really what this arguement is about. What's an expansion and what isn't. It's like classifying WoW servers as their own game simply because some you have to type /pvp to flag yourself, and other servers you're ganked looking at the cute bunny rabbit. Or ... ok let me make a great comparison to clear this up.
Everquest 1.
They just came out with, let's call it a 'game' for now, their latest release. It introduces a brand new race. New starting city, new starting noob zones, but wait... you go to PoK and click the Gfay stone, but the game stares back at you not changing the scene. Why? Because its an "Expansion". Now we go to example #2:
Guild Wars Nightfall.
You create your character, play through the entire story line, get your fancy lil green item.. and what's that? Credits start to roll. The game is complete. But how is this possible? It's the third game title of Guild Wars, yet without owning the previous two, you have just beaten the game. Hmm.. I think maybe because it's NOT an expansion. Player then goes to the store and returns home with the other two Guild Wars titles. Plays through each of them separately, and beats each one with out ever touching a cross over at any point, nor relying on any of them to help him/her to do it.
The only reason I can see people calling Guild Wars factions and nightfall an expansion, is simply that they're all owned by the same company. I could see mistaking them for expansions because they contain new character classes, or that you can take your character from any of the three titles, back and forth through each title, but that still doesn't make it an expansion. Simply put, an expansion (in game terms) is a new content filled game pack that REQUIRES the original game. Guild Wars requires nor is dependant on each of its titles.
(note, I am the furthest thing from a GW 'fanboi', just didn't think a simple definition of a word could cause so much confusion over such a simple question. Don't get me wrong, if you feel GW shouldn't be listed three seperate times, all the power to you, but find a valid point to make your arguement)
Hmm okay you have some points there.
Of course, one of the main problems is that Guildwars is not a mmorpg, also the argument that you can "finish" each box of guildwars seperatly is not valid, because a real mmorpg can not be "finished" in the traditional meaning of the word.
But I was just researching Everquest ( the original ) and there you do not need previous expansions to play a game.
There are many EQ expansions that have a different background story in it.
So you say, that the day EQ repackages their base game + an expansion, and do this for each expansion, then EQ has 12 stand alone games?
I feel that this seperate listing, and especially seperate ratings are based on some technicalites and differences in marketing strategies. And not because they really are seperate games. They are just different parts of the same game.
Greetings,
Cyberwiz
If you are interested in subscription or PCU numbers for MMORPG's, check out my site :
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Favorite MMORPG's : DAoC pre ToA-NF, SWG Pre CU-NGE, EVE Online
I don't think you're seeing his point, you don't need an original to play guild wars, you dont have to experience the same content in GW Proph as you do Factions or nightfall when you first start out.
All other MMO's, every single one requires the original released game, PLUS the expansion.
Guild wars doesnt require an original game.
Okay checked the EQ site again.
Now look here, you can buy 2 packages of EQ :
Platinum
Inlcudes :
EverQuest Classic
The Ruins of Kunark expansion
The Scars of Velious expansion
The Shadows of Luclin expansion
The Planes of Power expansion
The Legacy of Ykesha extension
The Lost Dungeons of Norrath expansion
Gates of Discord expansion
Titanium
Includes :
EverQuest Classic
The Ruins of Kunark® expansion
The Scars of Velious® expansion
The Shadows of Luclin expansion
The Planes of Power expansion
The Legacy of Ykesha extension
The Lost Dungeons of Norrath expansion
Gates of Discord expansion
Dragons of Norrath expansion
Omens of War expansion
Depths of Darkhollowexpansion
Now what if, SOE thinks, hmm, we wanna get ranked 12 times on mmorpg.com, so we need to repackage :
EverquestA ( EQ classic + The ruins of kunark )
EverquestB ( EQ classic + The scars of velious )
EverquestC ( EQ classic + The shadows of lucin )
etc etc
So then these would all be rated seperatly as "standalone" games?
Greetings,
Cyberwiz.
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Favorite MMORPG's : DAoC pre ToA-NF, SWG Pre CU-NGE, EVE Online
read my post above ...
Guild wars DOES need the original game.
The only difference is that the base game and the expansion are integrated and sold as 1.
So like I said before, if Everquest would package their classic game + expansion X then it would be a standalone game.
Then they repackage all and they have 12 standalone games.
So do you agree that 12 packages of Everquest ( EQ classic + Expansion X ) would be the same as the 3 packages of guildwars, and if not, why not?
Greetings,
Cyberwiz.
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CyberWiz,
I did not state that Everquest requires you to
have one expansion before you can play another. What I said was, and
which you so helped my point by stating in your post about Everquest
Platinum, etc. is each time it states it comes with Everquest Classic.
That is the original game, and that comes with every bundle because it
is the REQUIREMENT to play any of the expansions. Hell even the PoK
expansion they eventually gave part of it free to every player simply
because it made travel easier. (they gave everyone access to the Plane
of Knowledge, but none of the extra's like PoV, PoT, etc etc)
I thought before you had maybe misread or mistaken what I had said, but
clearly you missed the whole point of my postings, and the original
question. It's not about you need/don't need this expansion to play
that expansion. The WHOLE point we're all talking about is :
Is GuildWars three seperate games, or one game with two expansions., hence does it deserve 3 spots on the ranking list.
I'm simply stating my opinion that it should be allowed and my
reasoning behind it (read carefully now) because GuildWars DOES NOT
require any of the three games for you to be able to pick up and play
any single one of them. That in my definition (and what I thought was
the universal view on what makes an expansion) between standalone games
vs. expansions.
I too Cyberwiz, have the everquest original
box, the trillogy box, shadows of luclin box, and every box after that
because I still play it. But everytime I tack on a new expansion, it
just wouldn't work without everquest original. I have all three GW
games too, but bought, played, and beat each one before the next came
out.
Yes, the typical definition of an mmo is there is no
end to it... but lets face it. Give me an mmo without an ending that's
hidden and typically called the 'last boss' who everyone farms until
the company tosses you some more content? You beat Everquest everytime
you kill the last, toughest boss availiable at the time, and you don't
get a reward other than the pleasure of fighting over the loot and
having to do it all again and again until you get another boss or
twenty. You're left to farm, gear your guild out, and be ready for the
next set of baddies thrown your way. GW acts the same in the sense that
you beat the last boss availiable, get some loot, and then you're
tossed back into the same world with nothing left to do but farm.
Certainly there's more to a game than farming, everquest gives you
trade skills,monster missions for fun and exp, guildwars gives you
worldwide pvp and challenge missions to become the best at. (whether
its good or bad, lets just use pvp loosely to avoid any further
arguing)
Case and point, if we go by standard definitions
of what makes an expansion and expansion, GW is 3 seperate games. So to
the OP of this whole thread, my 2 cents which haven't changed through
this whole misunderstood mess, is yes, I think they should be allowed
to post it 3 times because they are seperate games, not a game with 2
expansions. And CyberWiz.. please make sure you understand what it is
we're talking about here. Not only have I tried to correct you, but so
did someone else. Not trying to be mean! Just trying to save you from
making yourself look like an ass
Edit : While typing this post you went and made yourself look like an
ass.. GuildWars does NOT require prophecies to play factions or
nightfall... do some homework cause I'm done with ya
Juicebox, your argument relies only on the fact that in Guildwars the base game and the expansion are integrated as 1 ( and this for each expansion ofc )
Where in EQ the orginal game was seperate and all the stand alone expansions are also seperate.
If SoE would have integrated the original game and each stand alone expansion into a package they would have had exactly the same as Guildwars.
I call that a techicality and therefore I find it unfair that guildwars has their games listed 3 times, while for exmaple EQ has not.
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What it comes down to is what you define as an expansion:
A) If you are required to own versions of pre-expansions or a "base" game to play the "new" game.
According to A, the three version of GW are different, new games. According to B, they are not. I choose B because it makes more sense to me.
Err, I did not say that you need prophecies to play factions or nightfall.
I said "you need the base game" to play any of the 3 partsl, meaning, they are all 3 based on the same base game code.
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Favorite MMORPG's : DAoC pre ToA-NF, SWG Pre CU-NGE, EVE Online
Oh and juicebox, you carefully avoid my question.
If Everquest would be repackaged as "Everquest Classic + Expansion X" x 12 times.
What would be different between that and 3 guildwars packages?
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No one can purchase DAoC expansions, and play them without the
original. That does NOT include buying the bundled epic, platinum, etc.
editions because they contain the original DAoC. You cannot buy the
Everquest shadows of luclin expansion, and play it without everquest
the original. That also does not include bundled version of the game
since the bundles platinum, evolution, etc. also contain the original
Everquest game as you so helpfully stated defeating your own point, and
completely made yourself look like an ass by stating it a few times.
ANYONE can purchase GW Nightfall, and play the nightfall game without
buying proph, or factions. ANYONE can do the same by buying factions,
play through factions, but never the others because they ARE NOT
expansions.
Rack it up to a 'technicallity' if you must, but you answered your own
question. Why did SoE NOT package their games like that? Because they
simply state all over their site everytime a new EXPANSION is
announced. It is an EXPANSION. They release their games in bundles
simply to not make the consumer pay $30 or more for every expansion to
date. Think about it, EQ has what, 12 expansion now + the original?
12x$30 to a new player who wants to join the game... OR bundle it all
up, pay $30 bucks and get them all...
Hmmm what oh what would be a better business choice. Snag people at $30
for your game and expansions, also collecting their monthly fees, or
turning new players away by saying, "If you want to join your friends
in the new lands, please pay $360 plus your monthly fees."
So really, what you're saying is, is that SoE should say "Hey we have a
new game!" but really it's just a bundled version of their game and
expansions, and then hope that their dreams aren't crushed because they
didn't take 12 spots on the ranking list? They made a
choice to call their own game expansions. GW made a choice to
create 3 different games based on their ideas. They are sold to players
who can pick and choose which one or two or all three they want, but
they certainly aren't cramming each one down your throat because you
need one to play the other.
So lets insert a poll here...