[quote] Originally posted by Pantastic They've been willing to state that raiding gear will not be 50 times as good as nonraid gear and that it will not let raiders WTFPWN nonraiders, but are silent on whether it will be better or not. . [/b][/quote]
Maybe because thats the only thing anyone cared about that asked them...
Personally i really dont' give a damn if my sword does X dps less in PvE, just as long as it doesn't do more than 10% more than mine in PvP I'm fine, and the possibility that your sword that has X more DPS in mine is PvE might actually be not as good as mine in PvP is the gold standard to ME as to wether a game is "raidcentric" or not...
Edit: WTF is up with my tags, they look right to me
Of all that is written, I love only what a person has written with his own blood. -Nietzsche
Originally posted by Sturmrabe There should be plenty of stuff for people who are never going to raid, but in AoC there will be.
Which is completely irrelevant to whether or not people who are going to raid will have an advantage over people who aren't. This is a kind of sidetrack that dev comments tend to take on the topic.
Raid gear should not overbalance PvP, and HAS specifically been said it wouldn't.
So is what you're saying that the raider will get a gear advantage in PVP, it just won't be what the devs call 'overbalancing'? That's the problem with all of these dev quotes, they'll explicitly state some things but when it comes to the core issue they get all vague and make statements.
This isn't WoW, so don't rag on it liek it will be the same
I have at no point claimed that this game will be the same as WOW, I've been discussing whether it will have one particular property that WOW also has. The games share many characteristics in common, pretending that discussing one particular is somehow 'ragging on it like it will be the same' is not a very good argument.
Originally posted by Sturmrabe Maybe because thats the only thing anyone cared about that asked them...
I've seen posts on their forums asking that in threads where devs have responded, I could find a quote but frankly I don't care enough anymore, and the silliness of this defense should be obvious to anyone reading.
Personally i really dont' give a damn if my sword does X dps less in PvE, just as long as it doesn't do more than 10% more than mine in PvP I'm fine, and the possibility that your sword that has X more DPS in mine is PvE might actually be not as good as mine in PvP is the gold standard to ME as to wether a game is "raidcentric" or not...
And I do give a damn, and I'm not fine with it, and it's not the gold standard to me as to whether the game is a raid game or not. And why be so cagey by framing this in a hypothetical, do you expect it to be the case that raiders will get swords that do 10% more damage in PVP, and possibly more in PVE? That's exactly what we've been arguing over for these past several pages.
Originally posted by Sturmrabe How else can you explain a refusal to answer direct straightforward questions that you have an answer for?
Because quite simply they have answered it, and if you have ever followed any game in development you know that all devs are loathe to make concrete claims for several reasons, some of which is trying to keep trade secrets, some of which is not wanting to overcommit and be called a liar later, because no one dev is going to make final calls like whats in and out...
You are holding AoC devs to an unreasonable standard that NO devs of ANY mmo EVER had followed.
You misundertand what I was saying I was calling Blizzard liars. I specifically said the AoC devs are not lying and are more forthwright.
Vague? Sure, they probably have not fully decided on all specifics.
Hold up, this thread is starting to look like a ball of yarn after kittens have been batting it around the room.
All right, here is what we KNOW:
Raid gear will not be significantly overpowered
The terms overpowered above is undefined
crafting creates the best gear
the best crafting materials come from both raids and other sources
Various situations, including some in PvP and small group PvE will be considered just as difficult or more as raids.
Devs are not answering questions directly
the above may be because we won't like what they have to say
It might also mean that there is one axe you get from a raid that has .0001 more DPS than any other lootable axes, and they'd be called liars for issuing a broad statement
No man is an island, entire of itself; every man is a piece of the continent, a part of the main. any man's death diminishes me, because I am involved in mankind, and therefore never send to know for whom the bell tolls; it tolls for thee. Hemingway
Basically Aelfinn, we have two people here that are going to label ANY game that has ANY raid content, no matter the substantive information about them indicating they will handled differently in both mechanics and rewards in a game that is decidedly less item centric than any other, as a "raid fest" or "raid-centric" or whatever...
While I can deeply sympathise with the hate of raiding, I just cannot justify this virulence that twists any comment on raiding -even when trying to specifically assure that raiding will not be overblacing in PvP or the only or the only way to acquire good items- to indicate whatever they desire it to.
Of all that is written, I love only what a person has written with his own blood. -Nietzsche
Originally posted by Aelfinn Hold up, this thread is starting to look like a ball of yarn after kittens have been batting it around the room. All right, here is what we KNOW: Raid gear will not be significantly overpowered The terms overpowered above is undefined crafting creates the best gear the best crafting materials come from both raids and other sources Various situations, including some in PvP and small group PvE will be considered just as difficult or more as raids. Devs are not answering questions directly the above may be because we won't like what they have to say It might also mean that there is one axe you get from a raid that has .0001 more DPS than any other lootable axes, and they'd be called liars for issuing a broad statement
You missed the PvP specific feats that are only obtainable through PvP advancement. I believe that was confirmed by devs.
Originally posted by Aelfinn Hold up, this thread is starting to look like a ball of yarn after kittens have been batting it around the room. All right, here is what we KNOW: Raid gear will not be significantly overpowered The terms overpowered above is undefined crafting creates the best gear the best crafting materials come from both raids and other sources Various situations, including some in PvP and small group PvE will be considered just as difficult or more as raids. Devs are not answering questions directly the above may be because we won't like what they have to say It might also mean that there is one axe you get from a raid that has .0001 more DPS than any other lootable axes, and they'd be called liars for issuing a broad statement
Ok, first one is more or less comfirmed.
"Crafting creates the best gear" - that one is 100% wrong. Crafted gear will be situation-specific, dynamic and customizible, but it will not be THE BEST gear, unfortunatelly. It might be the best gear for one specific situation or mob, but defenitly not the best overall.
Unfortunately I think the best crafting materials will come mostly, if not exclusevly, from raids - gotta hate that
Originally posted by Drvanitus Originally posted by Aelfinn Hold up, this thread is starting to look like a ball of yarn after kittens have been batting it around the room. All right, here is what we KNOW: Raid gear will not be significantly overpowered The terms overpowered above is undefined crafting creates the best gear the best crafting materials come from both raids and other sources Various situations, including some in PvP and small group PvE will be considered just as difficult or more as raids. Devs are not answering questions directly the above may be because we won't like what they have to say It might also mean that there is one axe you get from a raid that has .0001 more DPS than any other lootable axes, and they'd be called liars for issuing a broad statement
Ok, first one is more or less comfirmed.
"Crafting creates the best gear" - that one is 100% wrong. Crafted gear will be situation-specific, dynamic and customizible, but it will not be THE BEST gear, unfortunatelly. It might be the best gear for one specific situation or mob, but defenitly not the best overall.
Unfortunately I think the best crafting materials will come mostly, if not exclusevly, from raids - gotta hate that
The rest I think you nailed.
No Jayde directly contradicted this one :
"Various situations, including some in PvP and small group PvE will be considered just as difficult or more as raids."
He definitively said raids had the potential to be more chalenging than the hardest group PvE encouner could ever be. Now they may choose to balance in such a way the that the hardest encounter is a PvE group encounter. But they certainly do not consider grouping as hard as raiding.
Originally posted by gestalt11 No Jayde directly contradicted this one :
"Various situations, including some in PvP and small group PvE will be considered just as difficult or more as raids."
He definitively said raids had the potential to be more chalenging than the hardest group PvE encouner could ever be. Now they may choose to balance in such a way the that the hardest encounter is a PvE group encounter. But they certainly do not consider grouping as hard as raiding.
grouping in general, yes. The average raid will definately be considered much more difficult than the average PvE encounter of the ordinary type.
However, so what? Guess that means I won't be nabbing the ancient atlantean sword of +666 demonslaying by killing random wolves. I was reffering to the special cases, that damn near impossible solo encounter with a vampire lord, etc.
The statement you quoted above was almost directly copied from something Jayde himself said, so if it really is contradictory, hes talking himself in circles
No man is an island, entire of itself; every man is a piece of the continent, a part of the main. any man's death diminishes me, because I am involved in mankind, and therefore never send to know for whom the bell tolls; it tolls for thee. Hemingway
Originally posted by Sturmrabe Basically Aelfinn, we have two people here that are going to label ANY game that has ANY raid content, no matter the substantive information about them indicating they will handled differently in both mechanics and rewards in a game that is decidedly less item centric than any other, as a "raid fest" or "raid-centric" or whatever...
Either you're not referring to me as one of the 'two people' which seems odd given that there's only 2 people arguing with Aelfinn and you at this point, or you're ignoring that I've very clearly stated what qualifies a game as a raid game by my standards. It's a simple question, not 'is there raid content in the game' but 'if there is raid content, does it provide better rewards than nonraid content?'. So, either you're lying,you're saying that I'm lying, or you missed the posts where I've said that - now's the time to clear it up.
EDIT: You know the best part about this comment? Sturmrabe is the ONLY person in this entire thread who has used the term "raid fest", I just went back and did a text search. Neanderthal and checkthis did use "raid-centric" (or "raid centric" just to be fair) a couple of pages back, but Sturm is the only one using it now, and no one but him who has even used "raid-centric" is still posting in this thread. Why does he say that whichever two of us he's referring two are going to label some game as a "raid fest" or "raid-centric" when none of the active posters but him have said that about this game, and he's the only one who's even used one of the terms in the entire thread?
even when trying to specifically assure that raiding will not be overblacing in PvP
If raiding is 1% better in PVP, then it's overbalanced by my standards. Have they specifcially assured anyone of that? Oh, no, I guess not. From what you said, you'd be fine with raid providing gear that's 10% better than nonraid gear in PVP. I most definately would not be fine with that, and won't be giving Funcom a single cent until I'm sure that they're not.
Originally posted by Aelfinn All right, here is what we KNOW: Raid gear will not be significantly overpowered The terms overpowered above is undefined
Which is completely consistent with "raid gear will be better than nonraid gear, but the raid-friendly developers believe that the amount that it's better will not be significantly overpowering". They could issue a statement that's not consistent with raid gear being better than nonraid gear, but they instead choose one that is not only consistent with raid gear being better than nonraid gear, but which only really makes sense if raid gear is better than nonraid gear.
It might also mean that there is one axe you get from a raid that has .0001 more DPS than any other lootable axes, and they'd be called liars for issuing a broad statement
If they're really worried about that, then they could say "raid gear will on par with nonraid gear, some individual items will vary a bit" or something like that. The fact that they're willing to state that raid gear will not be overpowered, without commenting on whether it will be on par with other gear or not, really sums it up.
"Oh no, don't point that out, someone might make an informed decision about whether or not to buy this game instead of just handing money to raid developers!".
Guess we'll have to wait until it comes out or open beta, but I hope they stick to the idea of making PvP less about items and more about tactics/skill which seems to be based on their PvP blood coins system. I just hope its not like some other game that I shant mention which had a seperate ranking system and PVP items. But I will keep my hopes high for now
If raiding is 1% better in PVP, then it's overbalanced by my standards.
Ok, then you have a narrow, unbending, ridiculously overstated view. 1% is by no stretch of the imagination unbalancing under ANY circumstances, especially when you take into account that gear will have a far lesser impact in AOC than in other games...
And as is raidfest, thats why I says "raidfest, raidcentric, or whatever" and I'm pretty sure plenty of people said raidcentric, so stop splitting hairs and acting like its some monumental faux pas
Of all that is written, I love only what a person has written with his own blood. -Nietzsche
Originally posted by Sturmrabe Ok, then you have a narrow, unbending, ridiculously overstated view.
You're damn right I'm unbending. and I suppose someone who has bought into the cult of the raid would see someone who won't financially support the cult as 'narrow', but that's really more your issue than mine. It's very simple: if the developers want a game in which raiders get an advantage over nonraiders, be it 1% or 1000%, then I will not pay even a single cent for their game.
1% is by no stretch of the imagination unbalancing under ANY circumstances, especially when you take into account that gear will have a far lesser impact in AOC than in other games...
So are you saying that you do expect raid gear to be better than nonraid gear? Because it seems rather strange that you'd argue that I'm being 'ridiculously overstated' for wanting raid gear that's equal to other gear if you expected it to be equal anyway. It sounds like you clearly expect raiding to give you some edge in PVP over a nonraider, just a small enough one that they can say it's 'not overbalancing' with a straight face.
And as is raidfest, thats why I says "raidfest, raidcentric, or whatever" and I'm pretty sure plenty of people said raidcentric, so stop splitting hairs and acting like its some monumental faux pas
Two people other than you, neither of whom are actively posting, said raid-centric and raidfest has only been used by you (well, I used it responding to your usage, but not to describe the game). And it's not some insignificant choice of words, I've been very clear all along in what I object to, and it's not anything like 'most of the content is raids', which is what terms like raidfest and raid-centric conjure up for most people. Why can't you just be honest about what people are calling the game instead of playing word games?
Originally posted by SturmrabeOk, then you have a narrow, unbending, ridiculously overstated view.
You're damn right I'm unbending. and I suppose someone who has bought into the cult of the raid would see someone who won't financially support the cult as 'narrow', but that's really more your issue than mine. It's very simple: if the developers want a game in which raiders get an advantage over nonraiders, be it 1% or 1000%, then I will not pay even a single cent for their game.
Wow, now you are just being an willfully ignorant flamer, how many times have I stated that I HATE raids? Noone on the AoC forums have argued against raids more than I.
1% is by no stretch of the imagination unbalancing under ANY circumstances, especially when you take into account that gear will have a far lesser impact in AOC than in other games...
So are you saying that you do expect raid gear to be better than nonraid gear? Because it seems rather strange that you'd argue that I'm being 'ridiculously overstated' for wanting raid gear that's equal to other gear if you expected it to be equal anyway. It sounds like you clearly expect raiding to give you some edge in PVP over a nonraider, just a small enough one that they can say it's 'not overbalancing' with a straight face.
Again, you talk like I'M a raider... you are so blinded by your preconception that you cannot even have a serious conversation, its pathetic
And as is raidfest, thats why I says "raidfest, raidcentric, or whatever" and I'm pretty sure plenty of people said raidcentric, so stop splitting hairs and acting like its some monumental faux pas
Two people other than you, neither of whom are actively posting, said raid-centric and raidfest has only been used by you (well, I used it responding to your usage, but not to describe the game). And it's not some insignificant choice of words, I've been very clear all along in what I object to, and it's not anything like 'most of the content is raids', which is what terms like raidfest and raid-centric conjure up for most people. Why can't you just be honest about what people are calling the game instead of playing word games?
and by stating "terms like raidfest and raidcentric" you make my point for me, the differance between those terms are pure semantics, they mean the same thing, have the same connotation, so you arn't being honest about the fact I meant the same damn thing and are trying to paint me in a light to suit your purposes without reguard to any stances I really take or the meaning behind what I've actually said explicitly... your arguments are nothing but strawmen and misrepresentations...
Of all that is written, I love only what a person has written with his own blood. -Nietzsche
Originally posted by Aelfinn Originally posted by gestalt11 No Jayde directly contradicted this one :
"Various situations, including some in PvP and small group PvE will be considered just as difficult or more as raids."
He definitively said raids had the potential to be more chalenging than the hardest group PvE encouner could ever be. Now they may choose to balance in such a way the that the hardest encounter is a PvE group encounter. But they certainly do not consider grouping as hard as raiding.
grouping in general, yes. The average raid will definately be considered much more difficult than the average PvE encounter of the ordinary type.
However, so what? Guess that means I won't be nabbing the ancient atlantean sword of +666 demonslaying by killing random wolves. I was reffering to the special cases, that damn near impossible solo encounter with a vampire lord, etc.
The statement you quoted above was almost directly copied from something Jayde himself said, so if it really is contradictory, hes talking himself in circles
Yes well I won't argue with your last statement I certainly saw some circles.
Originally posted by Pantastic Originally posted by Sturmrabe Ok, then you have a narrow, unbending, ridiculously overstated view.
You're damn right I'm unbending. and I suppose someone who has bought into the cult of the raid would see someone who won't financially support the cult as 'narrow', but that's really more your issue than mine. It's very simple: if the developers want a game in which raiders get an advantage over nonraiders, be it 1% or 1000%, then I will not pay even a single cent for their game.
1% is by no stretch of the imagination unbalancing under ANY circumstances, especially when you take into account that gear will have a far lesser impact in AOC than in other games...
So are you saying that you do expect raid gear to be better than nonraid gear? Because it seems rather strange that you'd argue that I'm being 'ridiculously overstated' for wanting raid gear that's equal to other gear if you expected it to be equal anyway. It sounds like you clearly expect raiding to give you some edge in PVP over a nonraider, just a small enough one that they can say it's 'not overbalancing' with a straight face.
And as is raidfest, thats why I says "raidfest, raidcentric, or whatever" and I'm pretty sure plenty of people said raidcentric, so stop splitting hairs and acting like its some monumental faux pas
Two people other than you, neither of whom are actively posting, said raid-centric and raidfest has only been used by you (well, I used it responding to your usage, but not to describe the game). And it's not some insignificant choice of words, I've been very clear all along in what I object to, and it's not anything like 'most of the content is raids', which is what terms like raidfest and raid-centric conjure up for most people. Why can't you just be honest about what people are calling the game instead of playing word games?
Their is no point in arguing with someone who sole MMORPG expierence is WOW people. Just let this guy go, it might be best if he didnt play anyways.
------------------------------ You see, every mammal on this planet instinctively develops a natural equilibrium with their surrounding environment, but you humans do not. You spread to an area, and you multiply, and you multiply, until every natural resource is consumed. The only way you can survive is to spread to another area. There is another organism on this planet that follows the same pattern. Do you know what it is? A virus. Human beings are a disease, a cancer of this planet.-Mr.Smith
Originally posted by Sturmrabe Well Tiny, I'm more than happy to let him go... I am jus ttrying to make sure that there isn't a bunch of misinformation in this thread by someone who keeps posting speculation as fact...
What he said
When people hear the term raid game, they tend to block it out, not look at it at all from then on, unless they happen to know enough about the rest already.
I am concerned about Pantastic and Neanderthal in particular, not because one or two players will really make a difference in terms of whether they play or not, but rather because both seem to be determined, Pan in particular, to tell everyone that this game is going to be a raidfest. I've already had to do some fast talking several times to get people to just look at the information themselves instead of passing by without a glance because of something Pan said in the Pub the other day.
No man is an island, entire of itself; every man is a piece of the continent, a part of the main. any man's death diminishes me, because I am involved in mankind, and therefore never send to know for whom the bell tolls; it tolls for thee. Hemingway
Originally posted by Sturmrabe [Wow, now you are just being an willfully ignorant flamer, how many times have I stated that I HATE raids? Noone on the AoC forums have argued against raids more than I.
If you hate raids so much, why are you so nonchalant about Funcom's decision to give raiders an advantage in PVP?
Again, you talk like I'M a raider... you are so blinded by your preconception that you cannot even have a serious conversation, its pathetic
You talk like you're a raider, if you stopped defending the 'raiders should get better stuff' and 'there's something wrong with you if you have a problem with raiders getting better stuff' nonsense then maybe you wouldn't seem like one. I simply don't believe that you actually "HATE" raids, since you're fine with a game putting you at a disadvantage for not playing them.
and by stating "terms like raidfest and raidcentric" you make my point for me, the differance between those terms are pure semantics, they mean the same thing, have the same connotation,
And since I haven't used EITHER of those terms, how is that relevant? You've chosen to use terms that have the connotation that most of the game content is raids, but I have not, nor have I made a claim equivalent to saying that most of the game content is raids.
so you arn't being honest about the fact I meant the same damn thing and are trying to paint me in a light to suit your purposes without reguard to any stances I really take or the meaning behind what I've actually said explicitly... your arguments are nothing but strawmen and misrepresentations...
Did you miss this part of what you quoted "I've been very clear all along in what I object to, and it's not anything like 'most of the content is raids', which is what terms like raidfest and raid-centric conjure up for most people"? The dishonesty here is that you're claiming that I have used those terms, when I haven't. It's amusing that you're misrepresenting what I said then, when called on it, try to pretend that I'm misrepresenting you.
Originally posted by Tinybina Their is no point in arguing with someone who sole MMORPG expierence is WOW people. Just let this guy go, it might be best if he didnt play anyways.
This response is interesting, because it has two major flaws. The first one is that WOW is not actually my sole MMORPG experience, as I pointed out earlier. The second is that what MMORPGs I have played is completely irrelevant to the discussion at hand, because whether I've played no MMOPRGs at all or have played every one listed on this site, Funcom's design for AOC is what it is.
When someone's sole argument for their position is 'that guy hasn't played enough different games', it pretty much means 'that guy's completely right but hopefully I can get you to not pay attention to him'.
Originally posted by Aelfinn When people hear the term raid game, they tend to block it out, not look at it at all from then on, unless they happen to know enough about the rest already.
And that's wonderful as far as I'm concerned. The more people that block out raid games, the less money companies make from raiding games. If Funcom doesn't want people blocking them out, they could have made something that's not a raid game, but they've clearly chosen to make a raid game. Even your friend Sturm can't stomach the full smokescreen
I am concerned about Pantastic and Neanderthal in particular, not because one or two players will really make a difference in terms of whether they play or not, but rather because both seem to be determined, Pan in particular, to tell everyone that this game is going to be a raidfest.
Ahh, now you're just posting an outright lie, which is what I've come to expect here. I most definately have not said that the game is going to be a 'raidfest', your buddy Sturm is the only one to even use that term, and I've said nothing equivalent to 'most of the content in this game will be raids' which is what raidfest implies to most people.
The fact that you can't manage to argue with what I've actually said says a lot.
I've already had to do some fast talking several times to get people
"Fast Talking" implies deception, it's the kind of thing used car salesmen do. You wouldn't need fast talking if simply stating the truth would work.
Comments
[quote]
Originally posted by Pantastic
They've been willing to state that raiding gear will not be 50 times as good as nonraid gear and that it will not let raiders WTFPWN nonraiders, but are silent on whether it will be better or not. . [/b][/quote]
Maybe because thats the only thing anyone cared about that asked them...
Personally i really dont' give a damn if my sword does X dps less in PvE, just as long as it doesn't do more than 10% more than mine in PvP I'm fine, and the possibility that your sword that has X more DPS in mine is PvE might actually be not as good as mine in PvP is the gold standard to ME as to wether a game is "raidcentric" or not...
Edit: WTF is up with my tags, they look right to me
Of all that is written, I love only what a person has written with his own blood. -Nietzsche
Which is completely irrelevant to whether or not people who are going to raid will have an advantage over people who aren't. This is a kind of sidetrack that dev comments tend to take on the topic.
So is what you're saying that the raider will get a gear advantage in PVP, it just won't be what the devs call 'overbalancing'? That's the problem with all of these dev quotes, they'll explicitly state some things but when it comes to the core issue they get all vague and make statements.
I have at no point claimed that this game will be the same as WOW, I've been discussing whether it will have one particular property that WOW also has. The games share many characteristics in common, pretending that discussing one particular is somehow 'ragging on it like it will be the same' is not a very good argument.
you are totally one post behind
Of all that is written, I love only what a person has written with his own blood. -Nietzsche
I've seen posts on their forums asking that in threads where devs have responded, I could find a quote but frankly I don't care enough anymore, and the silliness of this defense should be obvious to anyone reading.
And I do give a damn, and I'm not fine with it, and it's not the gold standard to me as to whether the game is a raid game or not. And why be so cagey by framing this in a hypothetical, do you expect it to be the case that raiders will get swords that do 10% more damage in PVP, and possibly more in PVE? That's exactly what we've been arguing over for these past several pages.
You are holding AoC devs to an unreasonable standard that NO devs of ANY mmo EVER had followed.
You misundertand what I was saying I was calling Blizzard liars. I specifically said the AoC devs are not lying and are more forthwright.
Vague? Sure, they probably have not fully decided on all specifics.
Hold up, this thread is starting to look like a ball of yarn after kittens have been batting it around the room.
All right, here is what we KNOW:
Raid gear will not be significantly overpowered
The terms overpowered above is undefined
crafting creates the best gear
the best crafting materials come from both raids and other sources
Various situations, including some in PvP and small group PvE will be considered just as difficult or more as raids.
Devs are not answering questions directly
the above may be because we won't like what they have to say
It might also mean that there is one axe you get from a raid that has .0001 more DPS than any other lootable axes, and they'd be called liars for issuing a broad statement
No man is an island, entire of itself; every man is a piece of the continent, a part of the main. any man's death diminishes me, because I am involved in mankind, and therefore never send to know for whom the bell tolls; it tolls for thee.
Hemingway
Basically Aelfinn, we have two people here that are going to label ANY game that has ANY raid content, no matter the substantive information about them indicating they will handled differently in both mechanics and rewards in a game that is decidedly less item centric than any other, as a "raid fest" or "raid-centric" or whatever...
While I can deeply sympathise with the hate of raiding, I just cannot justify this virulence that twists any comment on raiding -even when trying to specifically assure that raiding will not be overblacing in PvP or the only or the only way to acquire good items- to indicate whatever they desire it to.
Of all that is written, I love only what a person has written with his own blood. -Nietzsche
"Crafting creates the best gear" - that one is 100% wrong. Crafted gear will be situation-specific, dynamic and customizible, but it will not be THE BEST gear, unfortunatelly. It might be the best gear for one specific situation or mob, but defenitly not the best overall.
Unfortunately I think the best crafting materials will come mostly, if not exclusevly, from raids
The rest I think you nailed.
Playing: Darkfall Unholy Wars
Played: Darkfall, EVE, AoC, Ryzom, Ragnarok Online, GW2, PS2, Secret World, WOW, City Of Heroes/Villains, Champion Online.
"Crafting creates the best gear" - that one is 100% wrong. Crafted gear will be situation-specific, dynamic and customizible, but it will not be THE BEST gear, unfortunatelly. It might be the best gear for one specific situation or mob, but defenitly not the best overall.
Unfortunately I think the best crafting materials will come mostly, if not exclusevly, from raids
The rest I think you nailed.
No Jayde directly contradicted this one :
"Various situations, including some in PvP and small group PvE will be considered just as difficult or more as raids."
He definitively said raids had the potential to be more chalenging than the hardest group PvE encouner could ever be. Now they may choose to balance in such a way the that the hardest encounter is a PvE group encounter. But they certainly do not consider grouping as hard as raiding.
grouping in general, yes. The average raid will definately be considered much more difficult than the average PvE encounter of the ordinary type.
However, so what? Guess that means I won't be nabbing the ancient atlantean sword of +666 demonslaying by killing random wolves. I was reffering to the special cases, that damn near impossible solo encounter with a vampire lord, etc.
The statement you quoted above was almost directly copied from something Jayde himself said, so if it really is contradictory, hes talking himself in circles
No man is an island, entire of itself; every man is a piece of the continent, a part of the main. any man's death diminishes me, because I am involved in mankind, and therefore never send to know for whom the bell tolls; it tolls for thee.
Hemingway
Either you're not referring to me as one of the 'two people' which seems odd given that there's only 2 people arguing with Aelfinn and you at this point, or you're ignoring that I've very clearly stated what qualifies a game as a raid game by my standards. It's a simple question, not 'is there raid content in the game' but 'if there is raid content, does it provide better rewards than nonraid content?'. So, either you're lying,you're saying that I'm lying, or you missed the posts where I've said that - now's the time to clear it up.
EDIT: You know the best part about this comment? Sturmrabe is the ONLY person in this entire thread who has used the term "raid fest", I just went back and did a text search. Neanderthal and checkthis did use "raid-centric" (or "raid centric" just to be fair) a couple of pages back, but Sturm is the only one using it now, and no one but him who has even used "raid-centric" is still posting in this thread. Why does he say that whichever two of us he's referring two are going to label some game as a "raid fest" or "raid-centric" when none of the active posters but him have said that about this game, and he's the only one who's even used one of the terms in the entire thread?
If raiding is 1% better in PVP, then it's overbalanced by my standards. Have they specifcially assured anyone of that? Oh, no, I guess not. From what you said, you'd be fine with raid providing gear that's 10% better than nonraid gear in PVP. I most definately would not be fine with that, and won't be giving Funcom a single cent until I'm sure that they're not.
Which is completely consistent with "raid gear will be better than nonraid gear, but the raid-friendly developers believe that the amount that it's better will not be significantly overpowering". They could issue a statement that's not consistent with raid gear being better than nonraid gear, but they instead choose one that is not only consistent with raid gear being better than nonraid gear, but which only really makes sense if raid gear is better than nonraid gear.
If they're really worried about that, then they could say "raid gear will on par with nonraid gear, some individual items will vary a bit" or something like that. The fact that they're willing to state that raid gear will not be overpowered, without commenting on whether it will be on par with other gear or not, really sums it up.
"Oh no, don't point that out, someone might make an informed decision about whether or not to buy this game instead of just handing money to raid developers!".
Guess we'll have to wait until it comes out or open beta, but I hope they stick to the idea of making PvP less about items and more about tactics/skill which seems to be based on their PvP blood coins system. I just hope its not like some other game that I shant mention which had a seperate ranking system and PVP items. But I will keep my hopes high for now
If raiding is 1% better in PVP, then it's overbalanced by my standards.
Ok, then you have a narrow, unbending, ridiculously overstated view. 1% is by no stretch of the imagination unbalancing under ANY circumstances, especially when you take into account that gear will have a far lesser impact in AOC than in other games...
And as is raidfest, thats why I says "raidfest, raidcentric, or whatever" and I'm pretty sure plenty of people said raidcentric, so stop splitting hairs and acting like its some monumental faux pas
Of all that is written, I love only what a person has written with his own blood. -Nietzsche
You're damn right I'm unbending. and I suppose someone who has bought into the cult of the raid would see someone who won't financially support the cult as 'narrow', but that's really more your issue than mine. It's very simple: if the developers want a game in which raiders get an advantage over nonraiders, be it 1% or 1000%, then I will not pay even a single cent for their game.
So are you saying that you do expect raid gear to be better than nonraid gear? Because it seems rather strange that you'd argue that I'm being 'ridiculously overstated' for wanting raid gear that's equal to other gear if you expected it to be equal anyway. It sounds like you clearly expect raiding to give you some edge in PVP over a nonraider, just a small enough one that they can say it's 'not overbalancing' with a straight face.
Two people other than you, neither of whom are actively posting, said raid-centric and raidfest has only been used by you (well, I used it responding to your usage, but not to describe the game). And it's not some insignificant choice of words, I've been very clear all along in what I object to, and it's not anything like 'most of the content is raids', which is what terms like raidfest and raid-centric conjure up for most people. Why can't you just be honest about what people are calling the game instead of playing word games?
Wow, now you are just being an willfully ignorant flamer, how many times have I stated that I HATE raids? Noone on the AoC forums have argued against raids more than I. Again, you talk like I'M a raider... you are so blinded by your preconception that you cannot even have a serious conversation, its pathetic and by stating "terms like raidfest and raidcentric" you make my point for me, the differance between those terms are pure semantics, they mean the same thing, have the same connotation, so you arn't being honest about the fact I meant the same damn thing and are trying to paint me in a light to suit your purposes without reguard to any stances I really take or the meaning behind what I've actually said explicitly... your arguments are nothing but strawmen and misrepresentations...Of all that is written, I love only what a person has written with his own blood. -Nietzsche
grouping in general, yes. The average raid will definately be considered much more difficult than the average PvE encounter of the ordinary type.
However, so what? Guess that means I won't be nabbing the ancient atlantean sword of +666 demonslaying by killing random wolves. I was reffering to the special cases, that damn near impossible solo encounter with a vampire lord, etc.
The statement you quoted above was almost directly copied from something Jayde himself said, so if it really is contradictory, hes talking himself in circles
Yes well I won't argue with your last statement I certainly saw some circles.
You're damn right I'm unbending. and I suppose someone who has bought into the cult of the raid would see someone who won't financially support the cult as 'narrow', but that's really more your issue than mine. It's very simple: if the developers want a game in which raiders get an advantage over nonraiders, be it 1% or 1000%, then I will not pay even a single cent for their game.
So are you saying that you do expect raid gear to be better than nonraid gear? Because it seems rather strange that you'd argue that I'm being 'ridiculously overstated' for wanting raid gear that's equal to other gear if you expected it to be equal anyway. It sounds like you clearly expect raiding to give you some edge in PVP over a nonraider, just a small enough one that they can say it's 'not overbalancing' with a straight face.
Two people other than you, neither of whom are actively posting, said raid-centric and raidfest has only been used by you (well, I used it responding to your usage, but not to describe the game). And it's not some insignificant choice of words, I've been very clear all along in what I object to, and it's not anything like 'most of the content is raids', which is what terms like raidfest and raid-centric conjure up for most people. Why can't you just be honest about what people are calling the game instead of playing word games?
Their is no point in arguing with someone who sole MMORPG expierence is WOW people. Just let this guy go, it might be best if he didnt play anyways.
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You see, every mammal on this planet instinctively develops a natural equilibrium with their surrounding environment, but you humans do not. You spread to an area, and you multiply, and you multiply, until every natural resource is consumed. The only way you can survive is to spread to another area. There is another organism on this planet that follows the same pattern. Do you know what it is? A virus. Human beings are a disease, a cancer of this planet.-Mr.Smith
Well Tiny, I'm more than happy to let him go...
I am jus ttrying to make sure that there isn't a bunch of misinformation in this thread by someone who keeps posting speculation as fact...
Of all that is written, I love only what a person has written with his own blood. -Nietzsche
What he said
When people hear the term raid game, they tend to block it out, not look at it at all from then on, unless they happen to know enough about the rest already.
I am concerned about Pantastic and Neanderthal in particular, not because one or two players will really make a difference in terms of whether they play or not, but rather because both seem to be determined, Pan in particular, to tell everyone that this game is going to be a raidfest. I've already had to do some fast talking several times to get people to just look at the information themselves instead of passing by without a glance because of something Pan said in the Pub the other day.
No man is an island, entire of itself; every man is a piece of the continent, a part of the main. any man's death diminishes me, because I am involved in mankind, and therefore never send to know for whom the bell tolls; it tolls for thee.
Hemingway
If you hate raids so much, why are you so nonchalant about Funcom's decision to give raiders an advantage in PVP?
You talk like you're a raider, if you stopped defending the 'raiders should get better stuff' and 'there's something wrong with you if you have a problem with raiders getting better stuff' nonsense then maybe you wouldn't seem like one. I simply don't believe that you actually "HATE" raids, since you're fine with a game putting you at a disadvantage for not playing them.
And since I haven't used EITHER of those terms, how is that relevant? You've chosen to use terms that have the connotation that most of the game content is raids, but I have not, nor have I made a claim equivalent to saying that most of the game content is raids.
Did you miss this part of what you quoted "I've been very clear all along in what I object to, and it's not anything like 'most of the content is raids', which is what terms like raidfest and raid-centric conjure up for most people"? The dishonesty here is that you're claiming that I have used those terms, when I haven't. It's amusing that you're misrepresenting what I said then, when called on it, try to pretend that I'm misrepresenting you.
This response is interesting, because it has two major flaws. The first one is that WOW is not actually my sole MMORPG experience, as I pointed out earlier. The second is that what MMORPGs I have played is completely irrelevant to the discussion at hand, because whether I've played no MMOPRGs at all or have played every one listed on this site, Funcom's design for AOC is what it is.
When someone's sole argument for their position is 'that guy hasn't played enough different games', it pretty much means 'that guy's completely right but hopefully I can get you to not pay attention to him'.
And that's wonderful as far as I'm concerned. The more people that block out raid games, the less money companies make from raiding games. If Funcom doesn't want people blocking them out, they could have made something that's not a raid game, but they've clearly chosen to make a raid game. Even your friend Sturm can't stomach the full smokescreen
Ahh, now you're just posting an outright lie, which is what I've come to expect here. I most definately have not said that the game is going to be a 'raidfest', your buddy Sturm is the only one to even use that term, and I've said nothing equivalent to 'most of the content in this game will be raids' which is what raidfest implies to most people.
The fact that you can't manage to argue with what I've actually said says a lot.
"Fast Talking" implies deception, it's the kind of thing used car salesmen do. You wouldn't need fast talking if simply stating the truth would work.