I viewed this article as a giant attempt at trolling, with the intent of provoking the sort of outrage that many are exhibiting here. (I think he just managed to pull off a literary "gank")
I'm basically a carebear who in D&D games plays Lawful Neutral. That said, I (sometimes) enjoy PvP servers and the challenge of outwitting the gankers. It helps keep leveling up more interesting.
I used to love playing on the FFA PvP server in DAOC..but it wasn't nearly as fun in WOW so I eventually re-rolled a few characters on the Pve servers.
I enjoy games where you can have designated guild enemies.... then I can feel justified in griefing their lowbies or whatever. But just random killing of neutral (and defenseless) players? Absolutely no appeal to me here...
Some of us play MMO's with our own code of honor, some like Dan obviously don't. That's cool with me, I don't expect everyone to bring the same set of morals to the game that I do, and it doesn't make me mad (well, not much) that there are such a$$hats out there. They do add spice to the game.
I recall one guild in DAOC that had a simiple motto...kill every player you come across, regardless of guild, level or balance (called the Slayers). I really hated running into those guys, and once I got to 50 I made sure they they always died...no matter what the circumstances... no mercy for any reason.... gave the game a nice edge to it....
So no, I don't hate players like Dan... they do make the game more fun in most cases.
Just trying to live long enough to play a new, released MMORPG, playing New Worlds atm
Fools find no pleasure in understanding but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV
Don't just play games, inhabit virtual worlds™
"This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon
Don't get me wrong, I'm a large fan of PVP. It makes clan based activities a lot more fun, which is my big thing.
But people like that make me sick. Just because the developer made it so its possible for people to kill openly does not mean it's their fault if you act like an asshole. In comparing it to the bully on the playground, you equate yourself to a fifth-grader. It's not the developers fault just because some immature jerk-wad decides to play their game. They aren't the wisest of game designers if they don't build any sort of anti-grief mechanisms in, but then their game will probably fail.
So they either learn from the failure, or find a new industry to work in.
This is why I like games where you can only kill people within a small level difference of yourself or you face sever penalties.
This is the first good article I've read from this site. It may be aggressive in it's execution. But it was entertaining and brought up a topic too neglected as of late. PVP has the opportunity to greatly enhance a game. However, just as Dan points out there are clear drawbacks to poorly executed design. It is unfortunate that the topic of discussion for this forum is how sick or emotionally twisted the author may appear to be, rather than what the problems are with PvP and how they can be rectified. Few MMOs focus on PvP from the get go and often only add it as an after thought due to a minority demand. It is no wonder then that these games end up with griefers etc. The industry has had a decade since UO to realize the advantages to PvP and UO's failures in execution. We've seen a number of games come and some go. There is no reason for players to be subject to failures of past systems. We've also seen a number of successful PvP implementations, which are promptly forgotten by the next release. Safe zones, criminal/bounty systems, soul-bound equipment etc. are all successful measures. I'm sure there are more beyond these; however, if even the most basic of PvP systems is neglected, we'll never see more effective systems come into existence. Dev teams neglect simple in-game measures which then have to be inefficiently covered by CSRs, who, we all know, are exceptional at resolving problems quickly and effectively. Another important point that Dan pointed out is that MMO's have very little to offer if they focus exclusively on any one thing. PvE gets old fast. Dev teams can't continually add content at a fast enough rate to keep up with players. PvP, without reprieve, also gets boring rather quickly. I don't know about other people but I can only play Guild Wars' PvP for about two hours before I fall asleep; there's no variation (not to mention that after one play-through, the missions become incredibly tedious). I realize this "conversation" will probably continue to focus on how much of a "sociopath" Dan is and continue to neglect the real points. It doesn't matter whether Dan is sick or not (not that I particularly think he is; of course, I'm assuming that he's making a point rather than stating a daily routine). What matters is that griefers do exist and do have a persistent, pernicious effect on games. Even if it's just one percent of the population it must still be guarded against, just as our society guards against theft and murder. Perhaps it's the fact that it's such a small minority of players that ruin the game for the rest, or the fact that the devs are just ignorant of the situation. All I know is that something needs to be done about the situation and should already have been done, and that this board will have absolutely no effect if it focuses on Dan rather than the problems with MMOs.
I've never been against PVP, loved EVE because it was an open PVP enviroment (though I was what was classed as a carebear because I didn't fight) but the fact you could PVP everywhere was good in my opinion.
What I don't like are theve griefers and 1337 speak people who obviously, as a previous post suggested, are either the poor beaten up kids in the playground or the bullies themselves.
Due to the fact that the internet is the ultimate in doing an action and having no come back on it (sorry late and knackered would word it better) the little special people of the world (sociopaths as someone else pointed out) can have their free for all.
If I was a woman (as most of these people are men, I've not heard of a female griefer) and going out with a guy like this, I would leave as one day he might turn it onto you, if he could get away with it of course.
What to do about these people are really the real question, well other than a bolt gun to their temple in real life, I think just let them be and point and laugh at them when they do it to you, they like you getting annoyed and upset and leave you when you laugh at them..
Of course in WoW 5 of us corpse camped a level 60 (when we were 40's) so maybe I need a bolt gun too :P
An interesting article, obviously written to provoke a reaction, and the 6 pages of text has shown that it has done just that. Mind you any topic that has the characters 'pvp' in it generally attracts a huge amount of replys for some odd reason.
In my opinion one very easy way to get rid of the griefers is simply to offer no way of inspecting characters, period [abilities, armour and skill levels etc]. In that way players would not know who was weak and who was strong, yes they could make an educated guess by appearance but they would have to take the chance that the person isnt more skilled than they look making it much harder to find easy targets. [just like in real life, which besides law is one reason people don't react violently any time they feel like it is because they dont know the capability of the other person and there is a very real chance they will get a good beating themselves instead].
The road to hell is paved with griefers.
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"At the very least, doing the wet towel snap should disconnect the nerves of the spinal column, causing total paralysis, thus enabling you to skin the bastard alive."
It`s a sad fact that if there are no rules then the strong will always prey on the weak, if a game has no provision in it`s design to prevent it then there will always be rampant PK bullies.
With no rules the only way to deal with them is to have high level players take them out and give them a good kicking, but then one becomes as bad as the other, vigilanties start out meaning well, but the cure can end up as bad as the disease
The wolf and sheep analagy is a good one, too many wolves = no sheep then the wolves starve and the game dies.
Maximum-Gamers.com Administrator "The clues are out there.....S.N.A.F.U."
Originally posted by TorchwoodYou tell people to grow a pair. I find that amusing, as you cannot yourself have a "pair" You sound like the kid who was picked on in the schoolyard, and the only outlet you can find is being a loud child online. This is why bullys should be publicly shot. To prevent their victims from polluting online games. If your not a child, your giving real children a bad name. Well behaved children are called, young men and women. Adults and children who act so poorly are called the problem with online games. If as many people were maladjusted as you think, there would be many more free for all games.
As to the writer of the article, he should be applauded. To be one of the problems with online games, and still get paid to talk about them, thats impressive.
I'm quite sorry, I can't hear your reply, can you stop crying and sobbing for a moment so we can understand you? Seriously, if that is your best honest judgement, calling someone who loves hardcore pvp in an MMO and uses it well, a "child" or "victim of a bully IRL" that's pretty lame. I'm 25 years old, I've played video games since I was 5 or 6 (back in the days of Atari 2600/NES). So wait let me guess, you'll hit me up with "omg you're that old and act like a spoiled child roflmaomomoomgzzzzzzzzzz" give me a break.
YOU, sound like the guy who rolled a toon in an MMO, got him to a medium level then got ganked when you stepped foot outside a safe zone. Did you ever realize that maybe, just maybe, if you didn't stop to call us childish adults, and other such crap, we wouldn't humiliate you so badly? We'd just kill you and move on? I mean seriously, it's a game and look how worked up you are getting over it.
Oh and btw, since you trying to make this personal, you give a bad name to all of us Doctor Who fan's, I'm quite sure Eccleston would call you a pussy himself if he had the chance.
I love PVP, games that dont have it, I wont play... That being said, Ive never seen any reason to kill players 10+ levels lower than myself .. or camping people who where easy to kill. Only idiots Ive ever camped that where 10+ levels lower than myself were dumb griefers like those who wrote this article, who griefed my alt or others when I was in the area, out would come my lv 60 and Id make that grief happy idiot wish they where on a PVE server. Most fun Ive ever had was taking my lv 60 rogue and put her in stealth mode, then have her follow my alt around, my alt would get ganked by real high level players of the opp side all the time, but my 60 would have so much fun killing them back, wasnt long before they woudlnt attack my alt, but run when they seen it lol, not knowing if my rogue was with her or not PVP makes the games exciting, gives you other areas of game play other than just grinding .. only area that I would like to see fixed would be in players not being able to camp a dead player .. To be fair, it is a pvp server, Ive seen many players think that they can just do quest in pvp zones and think they should be left alone .. I dont agree to the camping, but if your getting ganked over and over in an area, go do a diff quest in a diff place for a while.
Interesting article Dan, it certainly drew a few gankers out of the woodwork, must be quite something to have an "editor" extolling the virtues of egoistical game play.
Or maybe it was just to light a few fuses, it certainly did that!! You know just by reading these forums how easy it is to start a war of words these days.... Guess what!! You succeeded!
The article was too inflammatory to create a discussion, but you already know that. Most players see the weaknesses of a game, we don't need telling how much fun it is to exploit them for selfish reasons.
Its really very sad that so many new players to MMORPGs see them as just consisting of collecting rat's tails or pvp. I would have thought that articles on this forum would at least have been enlightening, not endorsing something that ruins the game for so many!
Well, we've had a fair share of replies (I started mine around reply 14 or so, then decided to sit back and see if what I had posted would be brought up by others on the site, and it was. My main point was this is more of a case study of a sociopath rather than a stimulating discussion on the elements of PvP), and I feel comfortable making a few comments now...
First off, the logic that killing defenseless players is more fun than collecting rat tails is conditionally false. The condition in this case is how engaging the gameplay is. If the gameplay is fun, then it follows that gathering anything would be fun, as well. I have played games that were purely fun just to play, and some of them were indeed MMOGs. Any game that doesn't succeed in creating engaging gameplay is a failure, and allowing griefing is simply a way of concealing that fact, not to mention it is detrimental to human development (why exactly does a tool need to be given a playground to perfect BEING a tool?).
Secondly, there is really no reason not to implement some sort of penalty for griefing. If someone is skewed enough to get a thrill from ganking and corpse camping alone, then something should be done to deter it. We don't tolerate bullying in real life if we are responsible people, and we shouldn't tolerate it in games. This point comes through fairly clearly in the article. Unless a meaningful penalty for behaving badly is implemented, a player has two choices, accept it, or look elsewhere for their entertainment. For any company, not paying their monthly fee is like a collective kick to the balls of any griefer who plays the game and the company itself.
Finally, as some others have stated, I see no reason why an editor who submits caustic and insulting articles like this is allowed to represent a site as otherwise wonderful as MMORPG.com. I am sure that just by PMing various members of your site that write well, you could replace Dan quite easily with someone who could come up with interesting, thought provoking articles that promote great discussions that will fuel new innovations in the industry.
A big thanks to the folks who suggested I needed some psychological counseling since I recently checked myself into McLean Hospital to get some help with my narcissism and my complusive killing disorder. Things were going great until me and my new friend Peter (He was in for sexual misconduct so I'm guessing he was a high level Priest) saw this n00b mage kid with some nice gear we wanted. We ganked him but the GMs in white clothes caught us and hit me with some kind of root spell that looked like a funny vest.
Some crazy carebear tried to mezz me with needle but I grabbed it and stabbed her with the special attack I'd been saving up the whole time. Now I have to dictate my posts and articles to the floating typewriter that visits me in my padded cell...Gratz guys!
Notice: The views expressed in this post are solely those of the author and do not necessarily reflect the reviews of MMORPG.com or its management.
Originally posted by delateur ... Secondly, there is really no reason not to implement some sort of penalty for griefing. If someone is skewed enough to get a thrill from ganking and corpse camping alone, then something should be done to deter it. We don't tolerate bullying in real life if we are responsible people, and we shouldn't tolerate it in games.
I absolutely agree.... So why don't you get your virtual two-hander, find this griefing freak, and kill him over and over till it hurts? Teach him that justice and fairplay is the only thing you are going to tolerate in your virtual world. Be the Defender of the Lord God, handing down divine punishment on griefers, ninja-looters, and con-men and save the world!
Yet, instead of that, all you people whine to the the devs and beg, implore, and even petition them to make your world a safer, easier, more consistent and predictable funpark without any 'real' trials or obstacles. It's the same kind of posts I see where class X is begging the devs to nerf class Y because they lost multiple times.
Ultimately, this whole line of thinking of getting the devs to make this perfect little world, where all classes are the same, where everything goes good all the time, is just going to lead to more and more never-ending everquests. The dynamic unpredictable SUSPENSEFULL environment just fades away.
Instead of going that direction, devs should instead create more ways for YOU (the player) to punish griefers... isn't that the whole freakin point of a virtual world kind of game?
WTF is wrong with you people who think its just fine and dandy to prey on weaker people. Do you even realize the impact you have on games, not only do you piss people right off (which im very sure is the response you want) but you destory the point of the game, which is to have fun. In normal life would you like someone richer than you always outbidding you on stuff you want not because he needs it just because he can and wants to make your life a misery. And if you think there is nothing wrong with humiliating an opponent after you defeat them, then why do all sport coaches teach there players not to be PRICKS after they beat another side.
And on the other side of the coin...
All you people who continously complain that these "greifers" are continously killing you, stay off the servers they on. It is as simple as that. If you prefer PvE more then stay on a PvE server. PROBLEM SOLVED. stop damn whining all the time.
All you people who continously complain that these "greifers" are continously killing you, stay off the servers they on. It is as simple as that. If you prefer PvE more then stay on a PvE server. PROBLEM SOLVED. stop damn whining all the time.
Doesn't this mean you let the gankers win? Pvp servers could be fun, they add an edge to the game, plus guilds bond more, friends help each other out, planned raids could be fought, etc. Why should a few selfish players spoil this? Do they not have the skill to fight their own levels?
I think all people are asking for is a penalty for unfair play. That seems such an easy solution and of course gankers can still gank, if they dare!!!
I absolutely agree.... So why don't you get your virtual two-hander, find this griefing freak, and kill him over and over till it hurts? Teach him that justice and fairplay is the only thing you are going to tolerate in your virtual world. Be the Defender of the Lord God, handing down divine punishment on griefers, ninja-looters, and con-men and save the world!
Instead of going that direction, devs should instead create more ways for YOU (the player) to punish griefers... isn't that the whole freakin point of a virtual world kind of game?
Always a poor argument, telling people to go out and dispense their own justice. That only works if everyone is more or less equal in strength. But the griefer will only strike those who are far below them in levels/power. By the time they catch up (if they even can) months can go by..and its hard to even remember who you wanted to kill and why. (I personally keep a list). Also, most game worlds are large enough you many never run into that person and get a chance to dispense justice.
(and please...no need to throw in the arguments about getting your friends/guildmates/realmmates to come help you... its weak to have to beg for help solviing your problems)
Here's an idea. How about we restrict combat to within a few levels, like most games try to set up. For those people who gank lowbies for no benefit, how about the Dev's create a button that the lowbie can press that automatically kills the griefer... and takes his or her loot. That sure would cut back down on lowbie killing.... and seems very fair to me.
I won't buy the Role-playing arguement, most people are not really roleplaying, not matter what they think or say. The jerk behavior is a very real reflection on their real life personna. Sure, they may not act on these impulses in RL, because there are consequences they will face. Take away the consequences, like in a game world, and their true nature comes out.
Just trying to live long enough to play a new, released MMORPG, playing New Worlds atm
Fools find no pleasure in understanding but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV
Don't just play games, inhabit virtual worlds™
"This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon
Originally posted by Kyleran Originally posted by airhead I absolutely agree.... So why don't you get your virtual two-hander, find this griefing freak, and kill him over and over till it hurts? Teach him that justice and fairplay is the only thing you are going to tolerate in your virtual world. Be the Defender of the Lord God, handing down divine punishment on griefers, ninja-looters, and con-men and save the world!
Instead of going that direction, devs should instead create more ways for YOU (the player) to punish griefers... isn't that the whole freakin point of a virtual world kind of game?
Always a poor argument, telling people to go out and dispense their own justice. That only works if everyone is more or less equal in strength. But the griefer will only strike those who are far below them in levels/power. By the time they catch up (if they even can) months can go by..and its hard to even remember who you wanted to kill and why. (I personally keep a list). Also, most game worlds are large enough you many never run into that person and get a chance to dispense justice.
Oh Kyl... you are SO close... don't slide down the wrong side of the hill...
The reason it's not working now is because the DEVS have not given us the MEANS to enforce the justice desired.
There's really only two options here: 1. You can call upon the gods (the devs) to change the nature of the universe (the virtual world) in such a way that evil is punished by them. 2. You call upon the gods (the devs) to give you the means to setup your own morality in your own universe.
I clearly choose option-2. More immersion. More interesting. More fun (because it's more complex, ongoing, and entertaining). Who wants a god to do something when you can do it yourself?
the business of making games is just that: a business. the people behind the scenes decide, yes or no, that they are going to include PvP or not, include restrictions or not, etc etc. whilst people argue that open-pvp is often to the demise of the game (particularly more so in north america) that is not a factual statement. eve online is a thriveing example of the shining success a game can have when it includes a properly executed pvp system with all the inherent checks and balances that are necessary. or, take darktide on asherons call. that server has been around for what, seven years ? it is pure open pvp, anyone, anytime....yet, darktide still has an excellent community. so, the point of all this is to say that open-pvp can work and can definitely stimulate the community in more ways then one by adding another dimension to it. so to answer the OP, i would say yes, it is the developers fault for not having the forsight to say "well, this element of our business, a pvp system without the proper checks, is flawed and we need to code this and this to fix it" but at the exact same time, there is flat-out no excuse for griefing and the people who engage in such behaviour should be pointed out and ostracized by the larger gaming population as a whole. anyways, pvp rocks and griefers can suck it.
One of the questions the article raises is why developers put game mechanics in which allow this sort of behaviour. In the case of Ultima Online, the answers were set out by Raph Koster, one of the original lead designers, many times.
The developers hoped the players would develop a community and believed that to do this, they should have as much freedom as possible in terms of how they relate to each other. He writes: "Can an online community ever truly flower if it always has to turn to Dad to deal with problems?" (check out his website http://www.raphkoster.com)
They also hoped killers would come to understand that they were part of a community, ie people interacting with people rather than just playing a game. Which didn't mean they wouldn't kill at all, but they would behave in a way which was beneficial to the game rather than driving people away.
How exactly Koster thought that would happen I am not sure, but I suspect it meant killers would behave exactly not like Dan Fotier:)
This didn't work out quite as they hoped, which is why so few games have followed the original UO model since - they have switches, or large non PvP zones (not just the safe cities), which are really just different types of switch.
If we learned anything from Ultima Online's Felucca exodus is that carebears do *not* realise they they need people who pick on those less weaker and less able to defend themselves and humiliate them afterwards. It's not just Felucca - I remember playing UO when EQ was first announced, and there were two things that excited people and caused many to leave UO. One was the shiny 3d graphics and the second was the promise of no PKs!
You can try to argue that they were wrong and actually they do gain from being humiliated (personally I have never met anyone who benefitted from being humiliated - nothing wrong with losing but who actually benefits from humiliation?) However I don't think there's any evidence to suggest people *realised* they needed to be humiliated, and certainly no evidence is suggested in this article.
I'll make a prediction - most games in the future will do what most games do now, which is either to have no PvP, to have switches/non PvP zones or simply to divert the PvP to one or two servers out of the many they run. The reason they do this is, as the article rightly says, that if you allow people to behave in the way Mr Fotier says he behaves, they will indeed do it. Dad has learned he just can't trust us after all.
OK first let me state that i am a griefer now allow me to explain why i am the way i am i was not always like this i at one point loved to play mmog's to have fun grinding and doing the PVE thing and absolutely hated games that allowed pking and i played games where pking was limited to certain areas and i played games that were pk anywhere anytime and although i didnt like pking i liked the game after awhile of being griefed i finally said enoughs enough and quit playing the game but i figured why should i quit playing something i enjoy so i turned the tables on those who would grief me and hunted down their newbs and friends and slaughter them and in doing so i found untold joy in it and it went from the players that griefed me to me being the one doing the griefing to anyone i could find and it didnt have to be someone lower than me just the other day i was griefing a lvl 60 in WoW with my lvl 39 simply because he/she didnt know what they were doing and you know what i still enjoy doing it its like the old saying "if you cant beat them join them" thats the risk you have to accept if you r going to play on a pvp server or game and WoW has made it so if the other player is 10 lvls or more lower than u then u dont get any honor but u know what it doesnt stop me i still enjoy the fact that i can be "someone else" in the game than i am in RL thats the point of mmog's the ability to be or do someone or something that u cant do in RL take that away and theres no point in playing this is just my opinion and im sure i will be flamed for it but u have to take the good with the bad so let the flaming begin just remember it wont stop me from doing what i get my kicks from
I found this article pretty interesting Dan, and it definitely evoked some emotions from the readers. Well done!
The only point I'd like to discuss is in regards to what several posters mentioned earlier. I do believe you should be able to participate in PvP freely and openly in whichever manner you choose. However, I don't believe that just because you can that you neccesarily should.
You can hack whichever MMORPG you are playing at the time, but that doesn't mean you should. You can run a botting application while you're afk from the game to make money, but it doesn't mean that you should. You can buy in-game currency from websites like IGE, effectively taking the easy way out of earning your own in-game money, but that doesn't mean that you should. Lastly, you can PK and corpseguard that player 30 levels lower than you, but it doesn't mean that you should
What I'm trying to say is that developers only have so much foresight when they release their products. It is my personal opinion that their biggest flaw in today's market is that they believe their consumers and players may have even the most fundamental core of morals and decency built into their persona, and that it's their HOPE that people won't use exploits, won't purposely grief, and won't look for ways to ruin other people's gaming experiences. This is a mistake; players today seem to have little to no regard for the feelings or well-being of their fellow players. Let's be honest here; compare the number of griefers in today's world with the number of griefers in the games say...5 years ago. I would certainly say there's a significant increase in the number, in my personal experience. I just don't think the devs have paid any attention to that rise in aggressive and malicious play-styles of their consumers.
Finally, I also must agree with what was mentioned at one point earlier in the thread. That is definitely the mindset of hackers, cheaters, and botters in-game, and rapists, killers, and thieves in real life. I don't believe it's wise to abuse privileges, because I know I will personally lament the day when game developers are merciless, and rule their games and T.O.S.' with an iron fist.
Waiting for something fresh to arrive on the MMO scene...
Originally posted by Cymdai I found this article pretty interesting Dan, and it definitely evoked some emotions from the readers. Well done!
The only point I'd like to discuss is in regards to what several posters mentioned earlier. I do believe you should be able to participate in PvP freely and openly in whichever manner you choose. However, I don't believe that just because you can that you neccesarily should. You can hack whichever MMORPG you are playing at the time, but that doesn't mean you should. You can run a botting application while you're afk from the game to make money, but it doesn't mean that you should. You can buy in-game currency from websites like IGE, effectively taking the easy way out of earning your own in-game money, but that doesn't mean that you should. Lastly, you can PK and corpseguard that player 30 levels lower than you, but it doesn't mean that you should What I'm trying to say is that developers only have so much foresight when they release their products. It is my personal opinion that their biggest flaw in today's market is that they believe their consumers and players may have even the most fundamental core of morals and decency built into their persona, and that it's their HOPE that people won't use exploits, won't purposely grief, and won't look for ways to ruin other people's gaming experiences. This is a mistake; players today seem to have little to no regard for the feelings or well-being of their fellow players. Let's be honest here; compare the number of griefers in today's world with the number of griefers in the games say...5 years ago. I would certainly say there's a significant increase in the number, in my personal experience. I just don't think the devs have paid any attention to that rise in aggressive and malicious play-styles of their consumers. Finally, I also must agree with what was mentioned at one point earlier in the thread. That is definitely the mindset of hackers, cheaters, and botters in-game, and rapists, killers, and thieves in real life. I don't believe it's wise to abuse privileges, because I know I will personally lament the day when game developers are merciless, and rule their games and T.O.S.' with an iron fist.
Wow, exactly my thoughts. I think its sad how many people fail to see the point he tried to make and even the point he didnt make and wanted us to think a BIT about it.
BUT, its a subject that is built on some fundamental feelings, feelings that people are quick to respond to and then lose their reasoning (no wonder so many replies are just stupid, no offence).
Its like when you play and RPG and design one of those uber plots of doom(tm) and then you keep thinking "WTF ITS SO OBVIOUS, why cant the players figure it out !!!" or "Its not that obvious, but I gave you the tools to figure it out !"
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poor dan though.
and poor rest of the mmorpg community to the rest of us, making devs have to go carebear on us to have a large enough community to be worth it.
I find it amazing that by 2020 first world countries will be competing to get immigrants.
I viewed this article as a giant attempt at trolling, with the intent of provoking the sort of outrage that many are exhibiting here. (I think he just managed to pull off a literary "gank")
I'm basically a carebear who in D&D games plays Lawful Neutral. That said, I (sometimes) enjoy PvP servers and the challenge of outwitting the gankers. It helps keep leveling up more interesting.
I used to love playing on the FFA PvP server in DAOC..but it wasn't nearly as fun in WOW so I eventually re-rolled a few characters on the Pve servers.
I enjoy games where you can have designated guild enemies.... then I can feel justified in griefing their lowbies or whatever. But just random killing of neutral (and defenseless) players? Absolutely no appeal to me here...
Some of us play MMO's with our own code of honor, some like Dan obviously don't. That's cool with me, I don't expect everyone to bring the same set of morals to the game that I do, and it doesn't make me mad (well, not much) that there are such a$$hats out there. They do add spice to the game.
I recall one guild in DAOC that had a simiple motto...kill every player you come across, regardless of guild, level or balance (called the Slayers). I really hated running into those guys, and once I got to 50 I made sure they they always died...no matter what the circumstances... no mercy for any reason.... gave the game a nice edge to it....
So no, I don't hate players like Dan... they do make the game more fun in most cases.
"True friends stab you in the front." | Oscar Wilde
"I need to finish" - Christian Wolff: The Accountant
Just trying to live long enough to play a new, released MMORPG, playing New Worlds atm
Fools find no pleasure in understanding but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV
Don't just play games, inhabit virtual worlds™
"This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon
Don't get me wrong, I'm a large fan of PVP. It makes clan based activities a lot more fun, which is my big thing.
But people like that make me sick. Just because the developer made it so its possible for people to kill openly does not mean it's their fault if you act like an asshole. In comparing it to the bully on the playground, you equate yourself to a fifth-grader. It's not the developers fault just because some immature jerk-wad decides to play their game. They aren't the wisest of game designers if they don't build any sort of anti-grief mechanisms in, but then their game will probably fail.
So they either learn from the failure, or find a new industry to work in.
This is why I like games where you can only kill people within a small level difference of yourself or you face sever penalties.
-FrozenPheonix
This is the first good article I've read from this site. It may be aggressive in it's execution. But it was entertaining and brought up a topic too neglected as of late. PVP has the opportunity to greatly enhance a game. However, just as Dan points out there are clear drawbacks to poorly executed design. It is unfortunate that the topic of discussion for this forum is how sick or emotionally twisted the author may appear to be, rather than what the problems are with PvP and how they can be rectified.
Few MMOs focus on PvP from the get go and often only add it as an after thought due to a minority demand. It is no wonder then that these games end up with griefers etc. The industry has had a decade since UO to realize the advantages to PvP and UO's failures in execution. We've seen a number of games come and some go. There is no reason for players to be subject to failures of past systems. We've also seen a number of successful PvP implementations, which are promptly forgotten by the next release. Safe zones, criminal/bounty systems, soul-bound equipment etc. are all successful measures. I'm sure there are more beyond these; however, if even the most basic of PvP systems is neglected, we'll never see more effective systems come into existence. Dev teams neglect simple in-game measures which then have to be inefficiently covered by CSRs, who, we all know, are exceptional at resolving problems quickly and effectively.
Another important point that Dan pointed out is that MMO's have very little to offer if they focus exclusively on any one thing. PvE gets old fast. Dev teams can't continually add content at a fast enough rate to keep up with players. PvP, without reprieve, also gets boring rather quickly. I don't know about other people but I can only play Guild Wars' PvP for about two hours before I fall asleep; there's no variation (not to mention that after one play-through, the missions become incredibly tedious).
I realize this "conversation" will probably continue to focus on how much of a "sociopath" Dan is and continue to neglect the real points. It doesn't matter whether Dan is sick or not (not that I particularly think he is; of course, I'm assuming that he's making a point rather than stating a daily routine). What matters is that griefers do exist and do have a persistent, pernicious effect on games. Even if it's just one percent of the population it must still be guarded against, just as our society guards against theft and murder. Perhaps it's the fact that it's such a small minority of players that ruin the game for the rest, or the fact that the devs are just ignorant of the situation. All I know is that something needs to be done about the situation and should already have been done, and that this board will have absolutely no effect if it focuses on Dan rather than the problems with MMOs.
I've never been against PVP, loved EVE because it was an open PVP enviroment (though I was what was classed as a carebear because I didn't fight) but the fact you could PVP everywhere was good in my opinion.
What I don't like are theve griefers and 1337 speak people who obviously, as a previous post suggested, are either the poor beaten up kids in the playground or the bullies themselves.
Due to the fact that the internet is the ultimate in doing an action and having no come back on it (sorry late and knackered would word it better) the little special people of the world (sociopaths as someone else pointed out) can have their free for all.
If I was a woman (as most of these people are men, I've not heard of a female griefer) and going out with a guy like this, I would leave as one day he might turn it onto you, if he could get away with it of course.
What to do about these people are really the real question, well other than a bolt gun to their temple in real life, I think just let them be and point and laugh at them when they do it to you, they like you getting annoyed and upset and leave you when you laugh at them..
Of course in WoW 5 of us corpse camped a level 60 (when we were 40's) so maybe I need a bolt gun too :P
An interesting article, obviously written to provoke a reaction, and the 6 pages of text has shown that it has done just that. Mind you any topic that has the characters 'pvp' in it generally attracts a huge amount of replys for some odd reason.
In my opinion one very easy way to get rid of the griefers is simply to offer no way of inspecting characters, period [abilities, armour and skill levels etc]. In that way players would not know who was weak and who was strong, yes they could make an educated guess by appearance but they would have to take the chance that the person isnt more skilled than they look making it much harder to find easy targets. [just like in real life, which besides law is one reason people don't react violently any time they feel like it is because they dont know the capability of the other person and there is a very real chance they will get a good beating themselves instead].
The road to hell is paved with griefers.
-------
"At the very least, doing the wet towel snap should disconnect the nerves of the spinal column, causing total paralysis, thus enabling you to skin the bastard alive."
It`s a sad fact that if there are no rules then the strong will always prey on the weak, if a game has no provision in it`s design to prevent it then there will always be rampant PK bullies.
With no rules the only way to deal with them is to have high level players take them out and give them a good kicking, but then one becomes as bad as the other, vigilanties start out meaning well, but the cure can end up as bad as the disease
The wolf and sheep analagy is a good one, too many wolves = no sheep then the wolves starve and the game dies.
Maximum-Gamers.com Administrator "The clues are out there.....S.N.A.F.U."
As to the writer of the article, he should be applauded. To be one of the problems with online games, and still get paid to talk about them, thats impressive.
I'm quite sorry, I can't hear your reply, can you stop crying and sobbing for a moment so we can understand you? Seriously, if that is your best honest judgement, calling someone who loves hardcore pvp in an MMO and uses it well, a "child" or "victim of a bully IRL" that's pretty lame. I'm 25 years old, I've played video games since I was 5 or 6 (back in the days of Atari 2600/NES). So wait let me guess, you'll hit me up with "omg you're that old and act like a spoiled child roflmaomomoomgzzzzzzzzzz" give me a break.
YOU, sound like the guy who rolled a toon in an MMO, got him to a medium level then got ganked when you stepped foot outside a safe zone. Did you ever realize that maybe, just maybe, if you didn't stop to call us childish adults, and other such crap, we wouldn't humiliate you so badly? We'd just kill you and move on? I mean seriously, it's a game and look how worked up you are getting over it.
Oh and btw, since you trying to make this personal, you give a bad name to all of us Doctor Who fan's, I'm quite sure Eccleston would call you a pussy himself if he had the chance.
Most fun Ive ever had was taking my lv 60 rogue and put her in stealth mode, then have her follow my alt around, my alt would get ganked by real high level players of the opp side all the time, but my 60 would have so much fun killing them back, wasnt long before they woudlnt attack my alt, but run when they seen it lol, not knowing if my rogue was with her or not
PVP makes the games exciting, gives you other areas of game play other than just grinding .. only area that I would like to see fixed would be in players not being able to camp a dead player .. To be fair, it is a pvp server, Ive seen many players think that they can just do quest in pvp zones and think they should be left alone .. I dont agree to the camping, but if your getting ganked over and over in an area, go do a diff quest in a diff place for a while.
Interesting article Dan, it certainly drew a few gankers out of the woodwork, must be quite something to have an "editor" extolling the virtues of egoistical game play.
Or maybe it was just to light a few fuses, it certainly did that!! You know just by reading these forums how easy it is to start a war of words these days.... Guess what!! You succeeded!
The article was too inflammatory to create a discussion, but you already know that. Most players see the weaknesses of a game, we don't need telling how much fun it is to exploit them for selfish reasons.
Its really very sad that so many new players to MMORPGs see them as just consisting of collecting rat's tails or pvp. I would have thought that articles on this forum would at least have been enlightening, not endorsing something that ruins the game for so many!
And what is one of the best (if not THE best) mmo comics saying about PvP/PK ?
http://www.thenoobcomic.com/daily/strip068.html
http://www.thenoobcomic.com/daily/strip070.html
Well, we've had a fair share of replies (I started mine around reply 14 or so, then decided to sit back and see if what I had posted would be brought up by others on the site, and it was. My main point was this is more of a case study of a sociopath rather than a stimulating discussion on the elements of PvP), and I feel comfortable making a few comments now...
First off, the logic that killing defenseless players is more fun than collecting rat tails is conditionally false. The condition in this case is how engaging the gameplay is. If the gameplay is fun, then it follows that gathering anything would be fun, as well. I have played games that were purely fun just to play, and some of them were indeed MMOGs. Any game that doesn't succeed in creating engaging gameplay is a failure, and allowing griefing is simply a way of concealing that fact, not to mention it is detrimental to human development (why exactly does a tool need to be given a playground to perfect BEING a tool?).
Secondly, there is really no reason not to implement some sort of penalty for griefing. If someone is skewed enough to get a thrill from ganking and corpse camping alone, then something should be done to deter it. We don't tolerate bullying in real life if we are responsible people, and we shouldn't tolerate it in games. This point comes through fairly clearly in the article. Unless a meaningful penalty for behaving badly is implemented, a player has two choices, accept it, or look elsewhere for their entertainment. For any company, not paying their monthly fee is like a collective kick to the balls of any griefer who plays the game and the company itself.
Finally, as some others have stated, I see no reason why an editor who submits caustic and insulting articles like this is allowed to represent a site as otherwise wonderful as MMORPG.com. I am sure that just by PMing various members of your site that write well, you could replace Dan quite easily with someone who could come up with interesting, thought provoking articles that promote great discussions that will fuel new innovations in the industry.
A big thanks to the folks who suggested I needed some psychological counseling since I recently checked myself into McLean Hospital to get some help with my narcissism and my complusive killing disorder. Things were going great until me and my new friend Peter (He was in for sexual misconduct so I'm guessing he was a high level Priest) saw this n00b mage kid with some nice gear we wanted. We ganked him but the GMs in white clothes caught us and hit me with some kind of root spell that looked like a funny vest.
Some crazy carebear tried to mezz me with needle but I grabbed it and stabbed her with the special attack I'd been saving up the whole time. Now I have to dictate my posts and articles to the floating typewriter that visits me in my padded cell...Gratz guys!
Notice: The views expressed in this post are solely those of the author and do not necessarily reflect the reviews of MMORPG.com or its management.
Yet, instead of that, all you people whine to the the devs and beg, implore, and even petition them to make your world a safer, easier, more consistent and predictable funpark without any 'real' trials or obstacles. It's the same kind of posts I see where class X is begging the devs to nerf class Y because they lost multiple times.
Ultimately, this whole line of thinking of getting the devs to make this perfect little world, where all classes are the same, where everything goes good all the time, is just going to lead to more and more never-ending everquests. The dynamic unpredictable SUSPENSEFULL environment just fades away.
Instead of going that direction, devs should instead create more ways for YOU (the player) to punish griefers... isn't that the whole freakin point of a virtual world kind of game?
WTF is wrong with you people who think its just fine and dandy to prey on weaker people. Do you even realize the impact you have on games, not only do you piss people right off (which im very sure is the response you want) but you destory the point of the game, which is to have fun. In normal life would you like someone richer than you always outbidding you on stuff you want not because he needs it just because he can and wants to make your life a misery. And if you think there is nothing wrong with humiliating an opponent after you defeat them, then why do all sport coaches teach there players not to be PRICKS after they beat another side.
And on the other side of the coin...
All you people who continously complain that these "greifers" are continously killing you, stay off the servers they on. It is as simple as that. If you prefer PvE more then stay on a PvE server. PROBLEM SOLVED. stop damn whining all the time.
Which Final Fantasy Character Are You?
Final Fantasy
I found it hard
It's hard to find
Oh Well
Whatever
Nevermind
NatoB posted;
All you people who continously complain that these "greifers" are continously killing you, stay off the servers they on. It is as simple as that. If you prefer PvE more then stay on a PvE server. PROBLEM SOLVED. stop damn whining all the time.
Doesn't this mean you let the gankers win? Pvp servers could be fun, they add an edge to the game, plus guilds bond more, friends help each other out, planned raids could be fought, etc. Why should a few selfish players spoil this? Do they not have the skill to fight their own levels?
I think all people are asking for is a penalty for unfair play. That seems such an easy solution and of course gankers can still gank, if they dare!!!
"We were pking in pong."
Dec 20,1999: AC1(DT).Since then:DAoC,SB,AC2,L2,EvE,WoW,SoR
====================
Currently playing: ArchLord - L58 Knight
LoTRo - L13 Dwarf Guardian
Always a poor argument, telling people to go out and dispense their own justice. That only works if everyone is more or less equal in strength. But the griefer will only strike those who are far below them in levels/power. By the time they catch up (if they even can) months can go by..and its hard to even remember who you wanted to kill and why. (I personally keep a list). Also, most game worlds are large enough you many never run into that person and get a chance to dispense justice.
(and please...no need to throw in the arguments about getting your friends/guildmates/realmmates to come help you... its weak to have to beg for help solviing your problems)
Here's an idea. How about we restrict combat to within a few levels, like most games try to set up. For those people who gank lowbies for no benefit, how about the Dev's create a button that the lowbie can press that automatically kills the griefer... and takes his or her loot. That sure would cut back down on lowbie killing.... and seems very fair to me.
I won't buy the Role-playing arguement, most people are not really roleplaying, not matter what they think or say. The jerk behavior is a very real reflection on their real life personna. Sure, they may not act on these impulses in RL, because there are consequences they will face. Take away the consequences, like in a game world, and their true nature comes out.
"True friends stab you in the front." | Oscar Wilde
"I need to finish" - Christian Wolff: The Accountant
Just trying to live long enough to play a new, released MMORPG, playing New Worlds atm
Fools find no pleasure in understanding but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV
Don't just play games, inhabit virtual worlds™
"This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon
Always a poor argument, telling people to go out and dispense their own justice. That only works if everyone is more or less equal in strength. But the griefer will only strike those who are far below them in levels/power. By the time they catch up (if they even can) months can go by..and its hard to even remember who you wanted to kill and why. (I personally keep a list). Also, most game worlds are large enough you many never run into that person and get a chance to dispense justice.
Oh Kyl... you are SO close... don't slide down the wrong side of the hill...
The reason it's not working now is because the DEVS have not given us the MEANS to enforce the justice desired.
There's really only two options here:
1. You can call upon the gods (the devs) to change the nature of the universe (the virtual world) in such a way that evil is punished by them.
2. You call upon the gods (the devs) to give you the means to setup your own morality in your own universe.
I clearly choose option-2. More immersion. More interesting. More fun (because it's more complex, ongoing, and entertaining). Who wants a god to do something when you can do it yourself?
the business of making games is just that: a business. the people behind the scenes decide, yes or no, that they are going to include PvP or not, include restrictions or not, etc etc. whilst people argue that open-pvp is often to the demise of the game (particularly more so in north america) that is not a factual statement. eve online is a thriveing example of the shining success a game can have when it includes a properly executed pvp system with all the inherent checks and balances that are necessary. or, take darktide on asherons call. that server has been around for what, seven years ? it is pure open pvp, anyone, anytime....yet, darktide still has an excellent community. so, the point of all this is to say that open-pvp can work and can definitely stimulate the community in more ways then one by adding another dimension to it. so to answer the OP, i would say yes, it is the developers fault for not having the forsight to say "well, this element of our business, a pvp system without the proper checks, is flawed and we need to code this and this to fix it" but at the exact same time, there is flat-out no excuse for griefing and the people who engage in such behaviour should be pointed out and ostracized by the larger gaming population as a whole. anyways, pvp rocks and griefers can suck it.
The developers hoped the players would develop a community and believed that to do this, they should have as much freedom as possible in terms of how they relate to each other. He writes: "Can an online community ever truly flower if it always has to turn to Dad to deal with problems?" (check out his website http://www.raphkoster.com)
They also hoped killers would come to understand that they were part of a community, ie people interacting with people rather than just playing a game. Which didn't mean they wouldn't kill at all, but they would behave in a way which was beneficial to the game rather than driving people away.
How exactly Koster thought that would happen I am not sure, but I suspect it meant killers would behave exactly not like Dan Fotier:)
This didn't work out quite as they hoped, which is why so few games have followed the original UO model since - they have switches, or large non PvP zones (not just the safe cities), which are really just different types of switch.
If we learned anything from Ultima Online's Felucca exodus is that carebears do *not* realise they they need people who pick on those less weaker and less able to defend themselves and humiliate them afterwards. It's not just Felucca - I remember playing UO when EQ was first announced, and there were two things that excited people and caused many to leave UO. One was the shiny 3d graphics and the second was the promise of no PKs!
You can try to argue that they were wrong and actually they do gain from being humiliated (personally I have never met anyone who benefitted from being humiliated - nothing wrong with losing but who actually benefits from humiliation?) However I don't think there's any evidence to suggest people *realised* they needed to be humiliated, and certainly no evidence is suggested in this article.
I'll make a prediction - most games in the future will do what most games do now, which is either to have no PvP, to have switches/non PvP zones or simply to divert the PvP to one or two servers out of the many they run. The reason they do this is, as the article rightly says, that if you allow people to behave in the way Mr Fotier says he behaves, they will indeed do it. Dad has learned he just can't trust us after all.
i was not always like this i at one point loved to play mmog's to have fun grinding and doing the PVE thing and absolutely hated games that allowed pking and i played games where pking was limited to certain areas and i played games that were pk anywhere anytime and although i didnt like pking i liked the game after awhile of being griefed i finally said enoughs enough and quit playing the game but i figured why should i quit playing something i enjoy
so i turned the tables on those who would grief me and hunted down their newbs and friends and slaughter them and in doing so i found untold joy in it and it went from the players that griefed me to me being the one doing the griefing to anyone i could find and it didnt have to be someone lower than me just the other day i was griefing a lvl 60 in WoW with my lvl 39 simply because he/she didnt know what they were doing and you know what i still enjoy doing it its like the old saying "if you cant beat them join them" thats the risk you have to accept if you r going to play on a pvp server or game and WoW has made it so if the other player is 10 lvls or more lower than u then u dont get any honor but u know what it doesnt stop me i still enjoy the fact that i can be "someone else" in the game than i am in RL thats the point of mmog's the ability to be or do someone or something that u cant do in RL take that away and theres no point in playing this is just my opinion and im sure i will be flamed for it but u have to take the good with the bad so let the flaming begin just remember it wont stop me from doing what i get my kicks from
Space available for rent.
I found this article pretty interesting Dan, and it definitely evoked some emotions from the readers. Well done!
The only point I'd like to discuss is in regards to what several posters mentioned earlier. I do believe you should be able to participate in PvP freely and openly in whichever manner you choose. However, I don't believe that just because you can that you neccesarily should.
You can hack whichever MMORPG you are playing at the time, but that doesn't mean you should. You can run a botting application while you're afk from the game to make money, but it doesn't mean that you should. You can buy in-game currency from websites like IGE, effectively taking the easy way out of earning your own in-game money, but that doesn't mean that you should. Lastly, you can PK and corpseguard that player 30 levels lower than you, but it doesn't mean that you should
What I'm trying to say is that developers only have so much foresight when they release their products. It is my personal opinion that their biggest flaw in today's market is that they believe their consumers and players may have even the most fundamental core of morals and decency built into their persona, and that it's their HOPE that people won't use exploits, won't purposely grief, and won't look for ways to ruin other people's gaming experiences. This is a mistake; players today seem to have little to no regard for the feelings or well-being of their fellow players. Let's be honest here; compare the number of griefers in today's world with the number of griefers in the games say...5 years ago. I would certainly say there's a significant increase in the number, in my personal experience. I just don't think the devs have paid any attention to that rise in aggressive and malicious play-styles of their consumers.
Finally, I also must agree with what was mentioned at one point earlier in the thread. That is definitely the mindset of hackers, cheaters, and botters in-game, and rapists, killers, and thieves in real life. I don't believe it's wise to abuse privileges, because I know I will personally lament the day when game developers are merciless, and rule their games and T.O.S.' with an iron fist.
Waiting for something fresh to arrive on the MMO scene...
Wow, exactly my thoughts. I think its sad how many people fail to see the point he tried to make and even the point he didnt make and wanted us to think a BIT about it.
BUT, its a subject that is built on some fundamental feelings, feelings that people are quick to respond to and then lose their reasoning (no wonder so many replies are just stupid, no offence).
Its like when you play and RPG and design one of those uber plots of doom(tm) and then you keep thinking "WTF ITS SO OBVIOUS, why cant the players figure it out !!!" or "Its not that obvious, but I gave you the tools to figure it out !"
Good article