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Official "We want a non-raiding server" thread
anarchyart
Member Posts: 5,378
I never thought we would actually need something like this, but there are so many people who hate raiding nowadays, I thought it worthy.
I myself at first thought it was crazy, but I have to admit, a non-raiding server would probably draw me in also. If they re-arranged the loot tables so that there were no raids at all and groups could do all the content, my casual playing butt would probably like that. They might have to add instances to certain areas which would be tough for the devs to do as they have said from the beginning they would never do this.
However, if they could do it without instances it might bring in a whole bunch of people to this wonderful looking game.
Comments
While I am all for a non-raiding server, I don't think it is really what I'm looking for. I may actually have a slightly increased interest in the game, but I doubt I would play it for any amount of time still.
Let us look at EQ2, another of Brad's "great" creations. I often found myself in a "forest" that had pathways about 30-100 feet wide with hard walls so I couldn't explore even other sections of the middle of the "forest" (and I thought zone edge walls were bad)! Myself and two friends at 30-40+ found so little content we could do without finding extra people that we all ended up quitting. Don't get me wrong, I like meeting new people and grouping sometimes...but nearly 100% forced grouping gets lame at times. My friends and I also commonly have been in areas above our levels for both PvP and PvE in many previous MMORPGs, so equal level EQ2 forcing groups was shocking. Add that to the fact that there were no groups forming for things we wanted to do (on one of the new PvP servers) and I had little interest in continueing to pay. Maybe if we had all bought the 4 "booster packs"/"expansions", we could have found some worthwhile solo/small group content. Don't get me started about the PvP imbalances... I don't mind group strengths, but when a tank class couldn't do anything outside a group in PvP I knew there was something wrong.
Yea, a non-raid server might be decent...but I think I am looking for a better game with depth outside of "grind for item x so you can grind for item y and PvP..." The #1 biggest turn off for me on Vanguard was when Brad said it would be "extremely item centric". I think what I am really looking for is a player economy, a sandbox, non-item centric PvP and a non-standard "class" system.
What is the problem with just not choosing to raid? If you take out raiding you are taking out very good content in most cases and atleast you have another avenue in which to choose from after end game if you decide to do so.
In the previous polls you see a clear majority thinking it would be a good idea to have a raid-free server.
Personnally I would gladly see my account banned, myself flamed, my IP hunted down, if it would mean the making of 1 such raid-free server.
Raid-free servers would become the "main" servers in no time and would bring about 10 times more players to Vanguard. Granted, there would be at least twice less peoples raiding, but 10 times more players and most of them grouping would be a good thing for the game.
PvE server make EQ. Raid-free server would make the next EQ-success, be it Vanguard or a competitor.
- "If I understand you well, you are telling me until next time. " - Ren
The idea is to have the BEST tools to group available without raiding, and this can only happen on a specific server as raiders would not find this acceptable on their server. Each server has a right for it rules and set of rules.
If I don't raid and I am gimped by 20%, this is not acceptable. I don't care about that 20% content, but I do care about this 20% tools I am missing. A raid-free server is about giving this 20% tools in grouping as well, effectively removing raiding. The game is balanced with this extra 20% tools, the best grouping encounters are balanced with this gear. This gear has to be available throught grouping; at least on the raid-free server.
- "If I understand you well, you are telling me until next time. " - Ren
If that gear's only purpose is to enhance the capabilities of PCs in that 20% of missing ocntent, why would you need it for the other 80%?
Are you making the assumption that group content is balanced around PCs w/gear obtained from raid encounters?
It has bee nstated explicitly that SOME of the best items are raid exclusive. While it may be true that not ALL of the best items are in raids, it is confirmed that there are raid exlcusive items that are the best.
If you do not raid you will be gimped, if you do not group you will be gimped. Vanguard is not a Group OR raid game. It is a Group AND Raid game. The truth tables turn out rather different.
It has bee nstated explicitly that SOME of the best items are raid exclusive. While it may be true that not ALL of the best items are in raids, it is confirmed that there are raid exlcusive items that are the best.
If you do not raid you will be gimped, if you do not group you will be gimped. Vanguard is not a Group OR raid game. It is a Group AND Raid game. The truth tables turn out rather different.
kk, then by that same flawed logic, if you dont craft, youll be gimped. or if you dont use the diplo. side of things. if you actually read what Brad says, there will be bests in every catagory. some things will require a high lvl crafter to complete, some a high lvl diplo. to complete. if you dont have the best diplo. gear, are you gimp? please read the info put forth before telling people what a game is going to be like. theres even one item, theoritical, of course, that Brad made referance to, that you can only get by soloing. there is another item that you have to get a diplo. to get, or you can buy it, i guess. but anyway, you have to have it in order to get into a certain area to do certain quests. every path in this game is going to be important. frankly, i see no need for a non-raiding server. but if there is one, ill be on the raiding server. and i dont usually raid. but if later down the line, i wanna raid, it would be nice to know that i can use me current high (hopefully) lvl character instead of having to create a brand new character on a brand new server, just to do it. and i wont have to relearn the economy supply and demand all over again.
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I must say I'm suprised to see you supporting this idea Anarchyart. The last time someone brought this up you were opposed to the idea. Not that there's any problem with someone changing their opinion on something but it does make me very curious why you changed your opinion.
Anyway, yeah I think there should be a non-raiding server. I can tell you without a shadow of doubt that it's the only way I would play Vanguard. Honestly I don't think the game is anything special in any respect and I'm none to fond of SOE but if they had a non-raiding server I would hand over my subscription fee and play on that server for the sole purpose of supporting the idea of non-raiding servers.
I want the idea to catch on for purely selfish reasons. Because I want to have good, well polished, well funded games that I can sit back and relax with without feeling forced to raid and without seeing non-raid content peter out at high levels as it inevitably does in raiding games.
I don't believe any BS about non-raiders not being gimped. I don't, won't, and never will believe that about a raiding game. I've been around the block a time or two and know how this works. People won't go on raids unless they feel like they need to. So when developers try to feed me the line that they will have raids but nobody will ever feel like they need to do them I don't buy it. If that were the case then they might as well not make the raid content in the first place because if people don't feel like they need to do it then nobody will do it.
Look, I want raiders to have fun too, I really do. I just don't want their fun to come at my expense. So give me a separate server and we can stay out each others way and stop bitching at each other all the time.
I think the first time a game does have a non-raiding server (and I've come to the conclusion that this almost certainly will happen eventually)....I think that it will probably have problems and they will eventually screw it up badly. But you know what? Even though I think they would screw it up I would still be willing to pay to play on it up untill they screw it up just so I could show my support for the idea.
Maybe it's because I'm in love, but I'd like to think it's because I'm open minded. I don't want to be a person who cannot take any criticism of the game I like to the point of defending things that are clearly not going to hurt the game itself.
A non-raiding server would bring more people to Vanguard, and I really want it to succeed. It looks like such a sweet game and a non-raiding server really wouldn't impact the other servers. Well, maybe except for the fact that the non-raiding server would be absolutely packed!
What they, and I, mean by a non-raiding server is not taking out the raid content. It is making the raid content doable by groups. Who would get hurt? It would still be a badge of honor to get uber item X on the raiding server, and people would probably say "Yeah but you got uber item X on the non-raid server, that's not as kewl!"
So be it! All I can see is that there are a TON of people who hate raiding, pretty much including me because I'm getting married soon and I just won't have 6 hours in one day to play Vanguard anymore, and I don't want to! I want to live damnit! AND I want to play Vanguard for a few hours a week. I don't think anyone would be hurt by a raid free server and yes people can change, I did! I was fighting change because I thought people were fighting Vanguard and Brad McQ, but they aren't, the just really don't want to raid and I get it now.
When people criticise certain aspects of Vanguard, they are only criticising certain aspects and I thank the lord Jesus for the constant positive changes in my life.
EDIT: Now, I'm not going to go off on non-raiding tangents at all. If they don't make non-raid servers for Vanguard I will still play and be darn happy about it. But if they DID make a non-raid server I would join it and so would thousands of others.
i respect your opinion and views, but i disagree. ive never felt "pressured" to raid. and ive played just about every game out there, raiding games included. i believe it comes down to who you play with regularly.
and saying that if they dont have to raid, they wont want to, is like saying noone will wanna make lasagna cause it requires so many ingredients. generally speaking, people will risk it if the reward is great enough. and frankly, i know some people that would raid even if its not worth it at all. just so they can say that they got the item.
lastly, ive never had a bad exp. with SOE so i dont have any problems paying a monthly fee for their games. and yes, i know all about the SWG dealio. and tbh, i think......well nvm, nobody wants to know what i think about all of that. thats a whole other topic. so i digress. anyway, if you dont wanna raid, dont raid. simple enough, to me way of thinking.
edit: and if they made a non-raiding server, thats fine too. im just saying that i dont believe it necessary.
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Totally agree, but if they do make a non-raid server I would definitely play there. If not, not going to lose any sleep over it. Vanguard is looking sweeter every passing week and it's going to be my MMO home past the release of any of the games on the horizon.
It has bee nstated explicitly that SOME of the best items are raid exclusive. While it may be true that not ALL of the best items are in raids, it is confirmed that there are raid exlcusive items that are the best.
If you do not raid you will be gimped, if you do not group you will be gimped. Vanguard is not a Group OR raid game. It is a Group AND Raid game. The truth tables turn out rather different.
kk, then by that same flawed logic, if you dont craft, youll be gimped. or if you dont use the diplo. side of things. if you actually read what Brad says, there will be bests in every catagory. some things will require a high lvl crafter to complete, some a high lvl diplo. to complete. if you dont have the best diplo. gear, are you gimp? please read the info put forth before telling people what a game is going to be like. theres even one item, theoritical, of course, that Brad made referance to, that you can only get by soloing. there is another item that you have to get a diplo. to get, or you can buy it, i guess. but anyway, you have to have it in order to get into a certain area to do certain quests. every path in this game is going to be important. frankly, i see no need for a non-raiding server. but if there is one, ill be on the raiding server. and i dont usually raid. but if later down the line, i wanna raid, it would be nice to know that i can use me current high (hopefully) lvl character instead of having to create a brand new character on a brand new server, just to do it. and i wont have to relearn the economy supply and demand all over again.
Well you clearly are not disputing that it is a Group AND Raid game so you seem to be disputing that not raiding will gimp people.
The only way this is possible is if all raiding items are sellable the way that crafting items usually are.
Firstoff there have been cases in other MMO where not being a crafter does in fact gimp you. One notable case is in WoW as a druid, if you do not get enchanting up to Smoking Heart of the Mountain (which is BOP) then you miss out on one of the best druid armor trinkets in the game.
Secondly there have been instances in the past in various other games where raiders controling the market on certain items has been quite problematic.
I seriously doubt that raid items are for raid use only. Instead it is highly likely that certain raid will be the best items for a certain role that is useful in both raids and groups. And having raiders control the market on those is certainly not a great thing. If there even is a market.
However since Diplomacy and crafting are essentially a mini game anything that affects it could have no effect on grouping or raiding. Grouping and raiding share very similar combat mechanics and therefore have a great deal of overlap. Diplomacy and crafting do not share this. It is spurious to try to assert that the Diplomacy/grouping dichotmy is similar to the riading/grouping dichotomy.
If some weapon does the max damage of all weapons in game it will effect both grouping and raiding functionally. This could have no effect on someone's ability to do diplomacy or to craft an item. Although it may have an economic effect on the market for crafters.
So unless you are stating that there will be absolutely no top quality items from raids that will be BOP and that you can guarantee that Vanguard will somehow prevent the problems in other games that have occured when raiders cornered the market on certain items, then you are wrong.
Totally agree, but if they do make a non-raid server I would definitely play there. If not, not going to lose any sleep over it. Vanguard is looking sweeter every passing week and it's going to be my MMO home past the release of any of the games on the horizon.
i hear that
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What they, and I, mean by a non-raiding server is not taking out the raid content. It is making the raid content doable by groups. Who would get hurt? It would still be a badge of honor to get uber item X on the raiding server, and people would probably say "Yeah but you got uber item X on the non-raid server, that's not as kewl!"
So be it! All I can see is that there are a TON of people who hate raiding, pretty much including me because I'm getting married soon and I just won't have 6 hours in one day to play Vanguard anymore, and I don't want to! I want to live damnit! AND I want to play Vanguard for a few hours a week. I don't think anyone would be hurt by a raid free server and yes people can change, I did! I was fighting change because I thought people were fighting Vanguard and Brad McQ, but they aren't, the just really don't want to raid and I get it now.
When people criticise certain aspects of Vanguard, they are only criticising certain aspects and I thank the lord Jesus for the constant positive changes in my life.
EDIT: Now, I'm not going to go off on non-raiding tangents at all. If they don't make non-raid servers for Vanguard I will still play and be darn happy about it. But if they DID make a non-raid server I would join it and so would thousands of others.
Well I applaud your ... mmm ... I don't want to say open-mindedness. How about facile mindedness?
Truly, in a game that separates things into servers/shards there really is no reason not too.
However, I will warn you, promulgating this line of reasoning is generally fruitless and depressing. You will almost never get a half-way decent counter argument and the greed is soul crushing. Just stay away from the topic. People will do anything to keep their peasants.
Well you clearly are not disputing that it is a Group AND Raid game so you seem to be disputing that not raiding will gimp people.
The only way this is possible is if all raiding items are sellable the way that crafting items usually are.
Firstoff there have been cases in other MMO where not being a crafter does in fact gimp you. One notable case is in WoW as a druid, if you do not get enchanting up to Smoking Heart of the Mountain (which is BOP) then you miss out on one of the best druid armor trinkets in the game.
Secondly there have been instances in the past in various other games where raiders controling the market on certain items has been quite problematic.
I seriously doubt that raid items are for raid use only. Instead it is highly likely that certain raid will be the best items for a certain role that is useful in both raids and groups. And having raiders control the market on those is certainly not a great thing. If there even is a market.
However since Diplomacy and crafting are essentially a mini game anything that affects it could have no effect on grouping or raiding. Grouping and raiding share very similar combat mechanics and therefore have a great deal of overlap. Diplomacy and crafting do not share this. It is spurious to try to assert that the Diplomacy/grouping dichotmy is similar to the riading/grouping dichotomy.
If some weapon does the max damage of all weapons in game it will effect both grouping and raiding functionally. This could have no effect on someone's ability to do diplomacy or to craft an item. Although it may have an economic effect on the market for crafters.
So unless you are stating that there will be absolutely no top quality items from raids that will be BOP and that you can guarantee that Vanguard will somehow prevent the problems in other games that have occured when raiders cornered the market on certain items, then you are wrong.
well apparently you arent going to put forth the effort to read up on it yourself, so ill just copy and paste what Brad said in another thread that is relavent. ill highlight the answer to what you have posted here, just so youre clear what im talking about.
Question 1: Why don't you get into some particulars about the solo/casual gameplay. We've seen the generalities. We're seen the fourth quarter PR and the spin. We're seen the fansite press releases. What else have you got?
Theres quite a bit out there please read up on it. Not much more I can say at this point unless you want to ask a more specific question.
Question 2: How do you define "content'? Is killing a wandering mob with little to no loot for little to no xp "content"? Is this the solo/casual content to which you refer?
Nope. Check out the posts where I talk about how good items are obtained and how they are available to all playstyles and obtainable through all the spheres. If you want good items, youll really need to play in all styles, regions, and spheres of the game. What you describe as casual gameplay is NOT casual gameplay in Vanguard.
Question 3: Tell us more about how a solo and casual player can prosper in what you call an ultra item centric game?
Again, its all in the links and information I provided. In this case, however, Ill post here anyway:
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(added to the official FAQ as Entries 11:13, 11:13:1 and 11:13:2)
Thanks for the quotes. I did some searching and have saved this off now so I can answer again as I'm sure this will rightfully continue to pop up as more and more people come to find out more about Vanguard:
Will the best loot come only from raids?
Aradune Mithara: No. Many of them will, but many will also be available to groups. Often the very best items will require a long time commitment, but these commitments shouldn't have to always be contiguous. In other words, say it requires 12 hours of adventuring to obtain a powerful item. In some extreme cases, this could require a raid, or even a group and it could take you all day to complete. In other cases, however, the 12 hours can be broken up into three 4 hour chunks, where the quest or encounter route for the item is broken up into fourths, such that after you achieve 1/4 of the quest or route, you can save, re-group the next day, and then finish up another 3 hour chunk.
I've posted quite a bit on this months ago and encourage your and anyone interested to dig up the posts (some have been re-posted in this thread already -- thanks guys). In a nutshell, we want the best items to be available though a variety of routes: raids, long contiguous adventures, broken up adventures, trade skills, diplomacy, etc. The only potentially controversial aspect of this is that is likely that not ALL of the best items you might want will be available through only one of these methods. If you are a person who wants ALL of the best stuff, you'll have to involve yourself in all of the above, including raiding and long contiguous adventures, even though the majority of content, including that which yields great rewards, will be group oriented.
Essentially, if you want it all (whether items or abilities or spells or whatever), you pretty much have to DO it all as well. I do stress, however, that to be a powerful and effective player, you don't have to do it all. What I'm talking about is the subset of players who, from a personal preference, decide they have to have all of the best gear of every type, for every situation, etc.
So, and hopefully more to your point, if you focus on the casual content in the game, you will find/buy items that make you better, and as you level up, acquire wealth, skills, etc. you will find better equipment, and should feel a sense of accomplishment.
But that equipment most likely wouldn't cut it in a grouping region, and most certainly not in a raid area. Those mobs are harder, more situational, and don't just require more attention when playing (making sure you counter that spell, etc.), but also require that you have items that are at least close to the level range of the group dungeon you are in.
It can't really be any other way. If you want to only be casual, you will progress, but as I've said in the past, you won't have the same stuff as the guy who groups, or who raids. Same with the other spheres and how much time you invest.
All that said, and here's where I risk some wrath, the most powerful items will likely require skill, challenge, risk, and contiguous time commitments involving a lot of people. The reason is that by putting all of those challenges together, you get a bigger challenge. The additional commitment to stay on those extra hours, the organizational skills necessary to lead and organize a large group of people, etc. There's still something to be said about all of that, even though it will be the minority of content, as per what I've commented on in the past.
Could you be more clear? Please elaborate.
Aradune Mithara: What's key here is that the best items should come from experiences where there was the greatest risk vs. reward and time commitment (plus, there's always luck -- being in the right place at the right time, etc.).
Some of the best items will come from conventional raiding (large groups of people participating in long contiguous adventures). Some will come from long adventures consisting of less people and more importantly, while a lot of time will have to be invested, the content will be such that all of that time doesn't have to be contiguous.
Some also will come from the other spheres, but much of the same applies: the best components harvested and then used later to craft the best items will be very rare and in very dangerous locations. Some of it may require long contiguous time commitments, while others will be obtainable by completing several shorter contiguous adventures.
So I guess I'm still not totally sure what exactly you are asking here....
Will you be able to collect ALL of the best gear in the game without going on conventional raids and/or without trading/buying gear obtained from conventional raids? No.
Will you be able to obtain some of the very best gear without participating in conventional raids and/or buying gear obtained via conventional raiding? Absolutely.
If your desire is to be able to obtain any and all gear without ever having to raid or buy equipment obtained via raiding, then Vanguard may not be for you. But if you are content with obtaining some subset of the best gear without raiding or buying raid dropped equipment (or items created via crafting from harvested components obtained via raiding), then I think Vanguard will be fine for you.
Really, if you want the option of obtaining any item in the game period without buying/trading for it, you'll need to involve yourself in all aspects of the game, not just raiding. You'll need to level up in harvesting/crafting, level up in diplomacy, experience the higher end grouping dungeons and such, and also have the tenacity and patience to invest quite a bit of time in the game in general, as going on a high level adventure, whether group or raid oriented, doesn't guarantee that you will obtain that item you seek anyway. Someone else might get the item, or the item might not be available each and every time anyway, as perhaps the rare spawn that drops that item, or rare harvestable, just isn't around that night, or the quest that triggers a sequence of encounter segments that leads to that 'golden' boss mob might already be taken by another group, or even the mob or switch or item or whatever flags you and your group as being able to participate on the encounter segment might not be 'up' either.
Bottom line: if you want it all, you have to be willing to participate in all aspects of the game, especially if you are not willing to buy/trade and participate in the player driven economy, and when I say 'all' of the game, that would include the raids as well.
Does this answer your question? If not, I will try to explain further.
Please explain further that doesnt necessarily seem consistent:
Aradune Mithara: I think I was consistent, although perhaps not as clear as they could have been. Some of the best items will only be obtainable via raiding, other best items through grouping, and others through special casual areas, and others through the other spheres (harvesting/crafting and diplomacy).
Let me try to come up with a quick hypothetical example -- it's simplistic, but perhaps will make more sense:
1. The best all around helmet (say non-situational -- it has the best AC, or the best +STR attribute) for a warrior may come from a high level group zone
2. The best fire resistant vambraces may come from a raid zone
3. The best light armor boots may come from a challenging encounter that is made for casual/solo size groups (1-3).
4. The best AC armor (call it the Red Dragonscale Breastplate) may come from dragon scales collected in a difficult group dungeon, but then also require a high level harvester to actually collect the scales in the depths of a the dragon's lair, and then a high level crafter to be able to use it and other components to actually create the Red Dragonscale Breastplate
5. The best +Charisma Cloak (call it the Royal Red Sparrow Robe) that enables you access to the throne room in New Targonor may come from a series of challenging diplomatic quests requiring high skills, items, and strategy used by one or more players playing in the Diplomacy sphere.
Were a person to absolutely insist on obtaining all 5 of these hypothetical items above, he would have to either a. engage in all 5 activities to some significant extent, as well as work with others in most of the examples or b. buy/trade for them, assuming they are items that are tradable.
Question 4: Explain how risk should be proportionate to reward. Then define risk. Risk is what? It's time! No matter how you spin it, it's time. So if reward is proportionate to time, this is casual friendly how?
Its about time, but its also about strategy and knowledge of the game, just as it is in most every MMOG. While you can advance by simply devoting time to the game, by employing tactics and learning about your environment, class, how to play in a group (assuming youre grouping), etc. you decrease risk.
Question 5: Talk about the importance of things besides your gear to an adventurer?
Gear in the other spheres will increase the chances of a favorable outcome, just like in adventuring. Put on the Cloak of Thestran Aristocracy that grants you +5 charisma and +10 influence as a diplomat and that, your skills and abilities, and your choices, are all taken into account when determining the outcome of a diplomatic encounter. Or dress in the garb of New Targonar's underworld if you want to gain access there, where some pretty cool quests may await you. But walk in with your adventuring gear and I don't care how powerful you and your buddies are, you're not taking on the Underworld's Boss and all of his minions. Same with harvesting use a better harvesting tool and harvest better. Use a better crafting tool, and craft better.
Question 6: Explain why one of your employees did an interview in which they said casual players may want to stick to crafting and diplomacy, and tell me again how this is a casual friendly game?
Id appreciate a quote, but that was taken out of context if it is indeed accurate. While the other spheres are at times, especially at lower levels, more casual, there will be many instances of difficult and more core gamer and even raid instances where the other spheres will be essential. Likewise, there will be compelling and fun casual content for adventurers from level 1 to 50.
Question 7: Elaborate on how we are all inspired by "the bleeding edge", yet downplay the raid element of the game and its rewards?
We dont downplay raiding. Raiding will be a blast in Vanguard. Well make it less tedious and control things such that zerging and other less creative tactics wont work (or work nearly as well). We vary raid sizes and have dynamic threat assessment such that if you bring too many people to a raid, the encounter may simply flee. Bottom line: by saying that the game is focused on the middle, the core gamer, on grouping, it by no means indicates a desire to downplay or make less fun casual or raiding. The majority of content will be grouping, but there will be plenty of casual and raid content (about 60% group, 20% casual, and 20% raid, although this is a rough estimate and since were not done populating the world, being still in beta, that may change, but the general plan wont, nor will our primary target audience.
Question 8: Tell us how the best part of being partnered with Microsoft was the artistic control you had over the game, and how you parted ways with Microsoft and got SOE as your publisher to gain the artistic freedom you told people you already had?
Things changed at Microsoft. Their gaming studio was reorganized, priorities changed, the Xbox 360 was coming out, etc. So while things went great with Microsoft for some time, as I posted, about a year and a half ago things slowly started to indicated to us that there may be some issues. Phil Spencer, the General Manager in charge of their gaming studios, who also is a big Vanguard fan and plays in beta (and is currently in beta we remain great friends), and I had a long talk after a while and we both agreed that it made more sense for the success of Vanguard that we find another publisher. So we broke away and went to SOE, who is indeed suited to focusing on just MMOGs, hosting them, marketing them, etc. And now we have even more artistic freedom. So things worked out well, and for all parties. We get a publisher who has more experience with MMOGs and can focus on them and their specific needs, SOE gets a great game during a time period where they need one, and Microsoft still gets a great game that will make their platform (Windows XP, and eventually Windows Vista s well) look great. You have to remember also that Microsoft looks at things differently than many publishers. They have a big picture to look at, in that they make PC games, console games, operating systems, office software, databases, and much more. So for them, a great game that makes their platform and operating system look fantastic, even if its third party, is better than a not-as-great game that is first party. Bottom line: we remain great friends with Microsoft, appreciate all that they have done for us, and look forward to working with them in the future in any number of possible scenarios.
Question 9: Since yours is a "challenging game", talk about how there will be no twinks and PLs ...
This too has been answered many times, but here goes:
There will be twinks. First, there is good twinking (when you twink yourself, which encourages replayability) and then there is bad twinking, when you just hand items to random people that are higher level than they are, giving them an advantage in-game and essentially robbing them of the sense of satisfaction of earning the item themselves. The latter also accelerates MUDflation.
For good twinking, we have the Veteran System, where, say, you have a level 30 character and you make a new second character and equip him with some items from your level 30 character. Because we know you have a level 30 character, we will reward you for creating an alt and experiencing other aspects of Vanguard (different areas, different classes, different races, etc.). How will we reward you? In Vanguard, items are scaled such that if a lower level character gets a high level item, while it is slightly better than an item around his level, its not as powerful as if it were wielded by a character closer to the level of the item. With the Veteran system, the item scaling isnt as severe. While your twinked alt wont be godlike, he will be a bit more powerful, noticeably so, and thus you are rewarded and encouraged to play through the game with multiple characters and also play the game longer.
For bad twinking we have several systems that slow down MUDflation, which is arguably the biggest problem with this sort of twinking. First, we have the Altar/Sacrifice system. When you come out of a dungeon with extra loot, instead of just handing it to some random lower level character, or even a lower level friend, you can instead sacrifice it to an altar and receive long lasting buffs that make a significant difference to you and your party when playing the game. Also, with all the different items for the different spheres, plus an emphasis on situational gear, especially at higher levels, you will be encouraged to keep around multiple sets of gear no longer will you have just one set of gear that is your best because best depends on where you are and who you are fighting. You can store your extra gear in the saddle bags of your horse, in your ship, in your home, or in a bank. Horses, for example, are soul bound, so on the occasion that you are fighting high challenge mobs and need to do a CR, you simply reach into your saddle bags, equip yourself with another set of gear, and ride back to the dungeon you died in (which is relatively close by, since you appear at the nearest Outpost to where you died). All of this is very cool and adds a lot of strategy to the game, having decisions to make as to how you configure yourself, but it also helps with twinking by discouraging it and instead encouraging hoarding of gear which thereby decreases the chance of you wanting to hand out items and again makes you think twice about twinking and therefore it slows MUDflation. Another system are quests that require you to turn in your current item(s) for better item(s), thus removing the previous item(s) from the economy, again curbing both twinking and MUDflation. And there are others weve talked about, which you are welcome to look up, including the ability to lend items as opposed to permanently giving an item to someone (although were not sure if that will make it in by release), and more.
Power leveling is discouraged in several ways as well. First, being such an item centric game, you will need to do dungeons to get gear. Some gear is only attainable in dungeons, whether by slaying NPCs or finding forges and such where only those special items can be made. Those items will likely be either not tradable or at least attuned. This, therefore, discourages power leveling because it will be that much harder to obtain the items you want you might figure out a way to power level your way up, but you will have issues obtaining level appropriate gear. There will also be certain spells, skills, and abilities you can only obtain by watching or experiencing the game in certain areas. Thus, if you just power level to hit 50 as fast as you can with as little risk as you can, again you might be level 50, but you wont be as powerful as the level 50 who played through the game and acquired these various special spells, skills, and abilities, There will also likely be Trivial Loot Code, assuming it works out in beta, to stop bottom feeding, again making it hard on the pure power leveler. And our encounter system will likely also include mechanics that make it such that if you just sit in one area and kill, kill, kill that you will receive diminishing returns. Lastly, buffs and such will scale such that if you have higher level buddies, they wont be able to cast spells on you such that your noob is overly powerful for his level just like items are scaled, so is just about everything else. So moving around the world, seeing the sights, experiencing the various overland areas and dungeons, etc. will result in a character that, when you do reach maximum level, is significantly more powerful than the guy who just sat around and killed the most easy mobs over and over again.
And why would we do all of this? Because power leveling generally isnt fun. Many people do it because they follow the path of least resistance even if that path isnt the most fun. From the beginning, from the day we put the FAQ up, we put forth the tenet that the path of least resistance shall also be the path to the most fun. So while Ive focused on that which negatively reinforces you to not just sit there, bored, power leveling, it is also our responsibility to make a game that is fun from levels 1-49 the game does NOT start at 50. Our goal is to make the game fun regardless of your level or play style, and we mean to reach that goal.
i went ahead and posted all of what Brad said because some of the rest of the info is still important. if this doesnt answer any remaining questions that you still have, then there is nothing more that i can say. you are, after all, entitled to your own opinion. just feel that you need to have all the facts in order to make an informed decision.
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think I was consistent, although perhaps not as clear as they could
have been. Some of the best items will only be obtainable via raiding,
other best items through grouping, and others through special casual areas, and others through the other spheres (harvesting/crafting and diplomacy).
This clearly supports what I said. Some items are raid exclusive, that means Vanguard is a Raid AND Group game.
The only
potentially controversial aspect of this is that is likely that not ALL
of the best items you might want will be available through only one of
these methods
Most people define not being able to get all the items you want for your build to be gimp.
I don't see how your post refutes what I was saying. And for the record I have read all that stuff before.
Just give me a non-raid server and I don't have to worry about all that crap. Is that so bad?
I'm happy for them that they are so excited about their raid content, but I hate raiding and want no part of it. A lot of people like eating broccoli, but I hate it. I'm not going to play a game that tries to force me to eat my broccoli so I can get dessert, even if its only a little broccoli 20% of the time.
He makes it quite clear that certain things are only avaiable through raiding and he fruther makes it quite clear that he even expects some people to want those raid items and not be able to get them unless they raid. I am telling you right now I will not raid, ever. End of story. Those people who choose to raid and group will be better eqipped than me and I will be penalized because I do not like that playstyle.
I will not raid in a house, I will not raid with a mouse. I will not raid in a box, I will not raid with fox.
Well guess what? I can actually play a game that will reward me for playing how I like rather than trying to incentivize me to eat my broccoli. And if they released a non-raid server Vanguard could be one of those games.
Raiding is not like a death penalty or travel times. It serves no purpose other than to entertain those people who like to raid. And further it should be apparent to everyone that people preferences for large versus small group activities are widely varying. I do not like large parties, I like to go to a bar with a few friends and hang out. I get board at parties, I get bored in raids.
But your post merely confirms that their design intention is to place items that I may want in the game and never be able to get. All because I like to hang out with a few friends and find hanging out with tons of people incredibly mind numbingly boring.
I don't agree with Brad's ideas about travel time as they relate to Vanguard, but I understand the reasoning behind it. I think it will not actually serve its purpose. But it is actually intended for a meaningful and useful purpose.
The insistance on raids serve no purpose and are in fact contrary to well known and well accepted differences in social preferences.
So why? Why would I play a game that stops me from getting what I want for absolutely no good reason? Why would I play a game that tries to incentivize me into doing something I hate?
From Brad:
If your desire is
to be able to obtain any and all gear without ever having to raid or
buy equipment obtained via raiding, then Vanguard may not be for you.
But if you are content with obtaining some subset of the best gear
without raiding or buying raid dropped equipment (or items created via
crafting from harvested components obtained via raiding), then I think
Vanguard will be fine for you.
That is my desire. To never have to depend on raiders in any way. Brad says it right there, then maybe Vanguard is not for me. That is fine, I accepted that months and months ago because well I have already read all this. But by simply releasing a non-raid serrver. Which really change almost nothing of any real substance and is really a model that is more in line with actual and existant socialization patterns. Suddenly you have more people for whom Vangaurd is suddenly for. Why is that bad? For people like Anarchyart is seems to be good, he wants the game to suceed. For me I don't care as I marked this game off my list after reading this stuff.
The raid cult has never done anything but hurt games. Raiding itself is fine, but the cult that tries to force people into its peasantry solely because they do not like that playstyle is nothing but pernicious.
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i'd love to see a game pull off something like swg pre-cu with a heavy emphasis on crafting. I probably will not join any game that has end-game raiding for X reward so that i'll be able to take on the next raid for Y reward so that i'll be able to take on the next raid for Z reward.