Originally posted by Aelfinn When people hear the term raid game, they tend to block it out, not look at it at all from then on, unless they happen to know enough about the rest already.
And that's wonderful as far as I'm concerned. The more people that block out raid games, the less money companies make from raiding games. If Funcom doesn't want people blocking them out, they could have made something that's not a raid game, but they've clearly chosen to make a raid game. Even your friend Sturm can't stomach the full smokescreen
This is not a goddam raid game, saying that Funcom "clearly" has chosen to make is so is an extreme distortion of the truth. The truth is YOU DO NOT KNOW squat about how this game will turn out.
I am concerned about Pantastic and Neanderthal in particular, not because one or two players will really make a difference in terms of whether they play or not, but rather because both seem to be determined, Pan in particular, to tell everyone that this game is going to be a raidfest.
Ahh, now you're just posting an outright lie, which is what I've come to expect here. I most definately have not said that the game is going to be a 'raidfest', your buddy Sturm is the only one to even use that term, and I've said nothing equivalent to 'most of the content in this game will be raids' which is what raidfest implies to most people.
The fact that you can't manage to argue with what I've actually said says a lot.
"Age of Conan was high on my list, but dropped to the bottom since the developers have made it clear it's just going to be another raid game, I was going to buy it at release but now won't touch it for at least 6 months after release, if ever."
So then, are you going to deny that the above quote is yours? Don't try to deny it by playing semantics
I've already had to do some fast talking several times to get people
"Fast Talking" implies deception, it's the kind of thing used car salesmen do. You wouldn't need fast talking if simply stating the truth would work.
I did tell the truth, yours was the deception I had to get around. All I was asking for the people in question to do was look at the information and DECIDE for themselves. Something of which you stated before was your goal
No man is an island, entire of itself; every man is a piece of the continent, a part of the main. any man's death diminishes me, because I am involved in mankind, and therefore never send to know for whom the bell tolls; it tolls for thee. Hemingway
Originally posted by Sturmrabe [Wow, now you are just being an willfully ignorant flamer, how many times have I stated that I HATE raids? Noone on the AoC forums have argued against raids more than I.
If you hate raids so much, why are you so nonchalant about Funcom's decision to give raiders an advantage in PVP?
Because he and I both have looked at the EVIDENCE, not the conjecture, and therefore know that Funcom has not and never did make such a decision.
Again, you talk like I'M a raider... you are so blinded by your preconception that you cannot even have a serious conversation, its pathetic
You talk like you're a raider, if you stopped defending the 'raiders should get better stuff' and 'there's something wrong with you if you have a problem with raiders getting better stuff' nonsense then maybe you wouldn't seem like one. I simply don't believe that you actually "HATE" raids, since you're fine with a game putting you at a disadvantage for not playing them.
and by stating "terms like raidfest and raidcentric" you make my point for me, the differance between those terms are pure semantics, they mean the same thing, have the same connotation,
And since I haven't used EITHER of those terms, how is that relevant? You've chosen to use terms that have the connotation that most of the game content is raids, but I have not, nor have I made a claim equivalent to saying that most of the game content is raids.
Right, so the problem is? Seriously, your argument boils down to this game giving an advantage to raid equipment (which it does not). That very concept forces the content for any serious players to revolve around raids, regardless of the ratios, thus raidcentric perfectly describes your view of the game.
so you arn't being honest about the fact I meant the same damn thing and are trying to paint me in a light to suit your purposes without reguard to any stances I really take or the meaning behind what I've actually said explicitly... your arguments are nothing but strawmen and misrepresentations...
Did you miss this part of what you quoted "I've been very clear all along in what I object to, and it's not anything like 'most of the content is raids', which is what terms like raidfest and raid-centric conjure up for most people"? The dishonesty here is that you're claiming that I have used those terms, when I haven't. It's amusing that you're misrepresenting what I said then, when called on it, try to pretend that I'm misrepresenting you.
No man is an island, entire of itself; every man is a piece of the continent, a part of the main. any man's death diminishes me, because I am involved in mankind, and therefore never send to know for whom the bell tolls; it tolls for thee. Hemingway
Originally posted by Aelfinn This is not a goddam raid game, saying that Funcom "clearly" has chosen to make is so is an extreme distortion of the truth. The truth is YOU DO NOT KNOW squat about how this game will turn out.
Funcom is making a game in which raiders get better rewards than nonraiders, therefore they're making a raid game. Even Strum clearly agrees as much as he tries to wriggle out of it, from his statements it's clear the expects raid gear to be better than nonraid gear, just not enough to be 'overpowering'.
But hey...
Right, so the problem is? Seriously, your argument boils down to this game giving an advantage to raid equipment (which it does not).
So are you saying that your pal Sturm is wrong? Because it's clear from his comments that he expects raiding gear to provide an advantage, just not an overbalancing one. You can see this from his comments about how he'll be fine with a 10% edge from raid gear, and how he got so irate when I said that I'd consider a 1% advantage overbalancing.
That very concept forces the content for any serious players to revolve around raids, regardless of the ratios, thus raidcentric perfectly describes your view of the game.
So now you're saying that if the game gives any advantage to raid equipment, then it's a raidcentric game? Because the stuff you've quoted and the stuff Sturm has said clearly says that they expect an advantage, just not an "overbalancing" one from raid equipment, so it appears that you're saying that if Sturm is correct, you will consider AOC a 'raid-centric' game?
"Age of Conan was high on my list, but dropped to the bottom since the developers have made it clear it's just going to be another raid game, I was going to buy it at release but now won't touch it for at least 6 months after release, if ever." So then, are you going to deny that the above quote is yours? Don't try to deny it by playing semantics
Deny what? That I said it's going to be a raid game and not a 'raidfest' or 'raid-centric''? You guys quoting me not saying something to prove that I said it is most amusing.
Originally posted by Pantastic Originally posted by Aelfinn This is not a goddam raid game, saying that Funcom "clearly" has chosen to make is so is an extreme distortion of the truth. The truth is YOU DO NOT KNOW squat about how this game will turn out.
Funcom is making a game in which raiders get better rewards than nonraiders, therefore they're making a raid game. Even Strum clearly agrees as much as he tries to wriggle out of it, from his statements it's clear the expects raid gear to be better than nonraid gear, just not enough to be 'overpowering'.
But hey...
Right, so the problem is? Seriously, your argument boils down to this game giving an advantage to raid equipment (which it does not).
So are you saying that your pal Sturm is wrong? Because it's clear from his comments that he expects raiding gear to provide an advantage, just not an overbalancing one. You can see this from his comments about how he'll be fine with a 10% edge from raid gear, and how he got so irate when I said that I'd consider a 1% advantage overbalancing.
That very concept forces the content for any serious players to revolve around raids, regardless of the ratios, thus raidcentric perfectly describes your view of the game.
So now you're saying that if the game gives any advantage to raid equipment, then it's a raidcentric game? Because the stuff you've quoted and the stuff Sturm has said clearly says that they expect an advantage, just not an "overbalancing" one from raid equipment, so it appears that you're saying that if Sturm is correct, you will consider AOC a 'raid-centric' game?
"Age of Conan was high on my list, but dropped to the bottom since the developers have made it clear it's just going to be another raid game, I was going to buy it at release but now won't touch it for at least 6 months after release, if ever." So then, are you going to deny that the above quote is yours? Don't try to deny it by playing semantics
Deny what? That I said it's going to be a raid game and not a 'raidfest' or 'raid-centric''? You guys quoting me not saying something to prove that I said it is most amusing.
Perhaps this comes down to people like Sturm and I never expecting "balance" to begin with and so "resaonable striking distance" is as good as we ever epxect in an imperfect world anyway.
Sturm and I differ on our expectations of what will happen and how the game will be maintained. But I do not think his "1% isn't such a big deal" is really that bad of a poin of view.
A second note is that you seem to separate raider and non-raider. Does non-raider include PvP? PvP will suposedly have 20 PvP exclusive levels of advancement for obtianing PvP only feats how does that fit into the 1%/10% calculation?
If we were talking pure PvE I would not argue your point about it being a raiding game. Clearly raiders will be exalted as that cream of the crop in PvE. PvE groupers will be peasants and that is that. The only real question is how PvE raiding will relate to PvP in power. Of coruse the best rewarding PvP will also involve raid sized groups fighting each other, but I am uncertain whether this is an issue with most people. It is not for me personally. I merely hate PvE raiding and that is mostly a hatred for PvE single Boss raiding, although I also hate the creation of the peasant class that is forced onto groupers.
omg Pantastic you have to be some hardcore nerd ... been reading this topic and rofling on your posts.
First of all HOW do you want you uber-endgame-killer items to be obtained?? Go out, kill a rat or a leet and there you go with your Helm of Eternal Night. Huh ... another sabre .. here it is my Sword of Bloodthirsty. Cmon ffs .. in a week ALL players would wonder around in same uber endgame items. There have to be HARD and PAINFULL to get endgame. EOD.
There is ppl that actually like raids .. I do. But I am Anarchy Online player (hint ** Funcom MMO) not some borred wower. I also like pvp ... mostly GvG pvp. And you know what? In AO best pvp AND pve endgame armor and items and weapons are NOT COMMING FROM RAIDS!!! Even better, IT IS TRADEABLE! But now you will complain "OMG I have to grind credits/gold/horse shit... to buy it!!". Buy yourself Oblivion, Gothic ... and enjoy. ALL MMOs have and will have some kind of grind to get endgame/best items. Otherwise it is not MMO ... or it is but with a lifespan of 2-3 months. What I am trying to say here is that Funcom with their first MMO didnt made "raidfest" (endgame raids are pretty short, best pvp items are soloable, not coming from raids anyway AND tradable). I doubt they will do it now when raidfests tnx to wow is getting so bad reputation. On other side that drops of best items are RARE, realy rare ... but they are soloable and in 90% tradeable.
PvE (raids) can live with PvP and not clash together. Amen
Originally posted by Podlagnjida omg Pantastic you have to be some hardcore nerd ... been reading this topic and rofling on your posts.
First of all HOW do you want you uber-endgame-killer items to be obtained?? Go out, kill a rat or a leet and there you go with your Helm of Eternal Night. Huh ... another sabre .. here it is my Sword of Bloodthirsty. Cmon ffs .. in a week ALL players would wonder around in same uber endgame items. There have to be HARD and PAINFULL to get endgame. EOD.
There is ppl that actually like raids .. I do. But I am Anarchy Online player (hint ** Funcom MMO) not some borred wower. I also like pvp ... mostly GvG pvp. And you know what? In AO best pvp AND pve endgame armor and items and weapons are NOT COMMING FROM RAIDS!!! Even better, IT IS TRADEABLE! But now you will complain "OMG I have to grind credits/gold/horse shit... to buy it!!". Buy yourself Oblivion, Gothic ... and enjoy. ALL MMOs have and will have some kind of grind to get endgame/best items. Otherwise it is not MMO ... or it is but with a lifespan of 2-3 months. What I am trying to say here is that Funcom with their first MMO didnt made "raidfest" (endgame raids are pretty short, best pvp items are soloable, not coming from raids anyway AND tradable). I doubt they will do it now when raidfests tnx to wow is getting so bad reputation. On other side that drops of best items are RARE, realy rare ... but they are soloable and in 90% tradeable.
PvE (raids) can live with PvP and not clash together. Amen
EQ didn't have any raids at all at release and it took at least a year or two for them to develop. Originally people just raided certain super powered things that weren't meant to be killed. They didn't even have drop tables. And it was really just an exploit of the stupidity of tank and spank with heal spam model EQ and its clones are based on.
UO had no raiding or uber items for quite some time. In fact many argue the introduction of uber items caused UO to take a serious hit.
There are no analogs to the uber items you talk about in Eve. The closest things are certain huge captial type ships with very specialzied purposes only useful to large corporations.
Do people need goals and things to do for some time? Yeah sure. But your uber item model is not a necessity and has specific examples that refute it.
In short your reasoning about the nature of MMOs is flawed and historically inaccurate, irregardless of the quality of Pantastic's post.
well gestalt11 sure ... remove raids (aka big bosses), teams/groups (aka small bosses), remove quests, remove tradeskills, remove guilds (non belivable but some guy really made a post complaining about "too much guild play and team play in AoC" o.0) for a Zeus sake remove also all items. Then, just make some landscape, put in some rabbits and frogs, take THE sword (btw same as all other 3 players of that "game" have) in your hands and go play that "game". And then you try some "pvp" ... with a NPC.
EDIT: I realy dont get it why complaining about raiding? Dont like it?? Dont raid. Uber item system sux? Wield an average/beginner item. Its all about choices. AoC will sux deep ?? Buy some other game and be happy.
Its in Norwegian, and I am currently trying to find a reliable english translation, but the paragraph I wish to point out in particular states that all lootable items will be available for everyone, irregardless of playstyle. Even if you only log in for 30 minutes or so at a time, which is way too short for any kind of raids, even the shortened raids found here. According to the explaination, it just might take 12 hours worth of playtime in 30 minute spurts to get something that you can get in 3 hours straight.
Obviously the above example is just that, an example
EDIT: Damn, disregard the above please, my freind didn't translate the meaning well. Heres what it really says, that is to say almost nothing at all aside from the developers stated intent, but thats been known (and disregarded) for a while
- Age of Conan is definately a game where you can just play a little each session. We have tried to go away from the trend we quite often see in online games, where you have to play alot to get the most out of the game. This is something we went away from right from the early development of the game.
- We won't reward the people that play alot, other than that they achieve things faster. Age of Conan is also designed for the average player in mind, and you can achieve the same as everyone else regardless of how much you play. The difference would then be that it would take you abit longer time than everyone else. But we have implemented a series of different functions that makes it possible for people to play with their friends, even if their friends have progressed further in the game. We have specifically tried to make a game where you won't have to sit hours on hours upon end to get full enjoyment from it. At the same time it is worth mentioning that there is tons of content for those that play alot aswell.
No man is an island, entire of itself; every man is a piece of the continent, a part of the main. any man's death diminishes me, because I am involved in mankind, and therefore never send to know for whom the bell tolls; it tolls for thee. Hemingway
Too much time and space spent for many of you people, discussing something you couldn't even see (only closed beta for employees so far), so I'm not going to discuss, just going to point you all in the right direction:
Just type "age of conan" in youtube.com, and see many many AMAZING videos from various game conventions. This is going to be the mother and father of all MMORPGs, at least for more mature audience (but those who appreciate fast combat system, and all other goodies rarely seen in online games, like siege combat).
Check out this short video about mounts in AoC, just for example:
Originally posted by Podlagnjida omg Pantastic you have to be some hardcore nerd ... There is ppl that actually like raids .. I do.
Being called a 'hardcore nerd' by someone who likes raiding is just amusing. "Oh, you're a hardcore nerd, you don't like the raiding lifestyle and don't want to schedule your life around a video game" is pretty funny when you think about it.
First of all HOW do you want you uber-endgame-killer items to be obtained??
If you've read all of my posts in this thread, you'll see that I've already answered this, and even commented on strange delusion that there's no such thing as group content.
Originally posted by Podlagnjida EDIT: I realy dont get it why complaining about raiding? Dont like it?? Dont raid. Uber item system sux? Wield an average/beginner item. Its all about choices. AoC will sux deep ?? Buy some other game and be happy.
So Podla, just to be clear, you think that in AOC you will get better gear by raiding than by not raiding? Because that's exactly the opposite of what Aelfinn keeps arguing. It seems odd that you'd come in attempting to insult if you agree completely with my evaluation of the game and planned course of action.
Originally posted by gestalt11 If we were talking pure PvE I would not argue your point about it being a raiding game. Clearly raiders will be exalted as that cream of the crop in PvE. PvE groupers will be peasants and that is that...The only real question is how PvE raiding will relate to PvP in power.
I'm sure it matters for some people, but if you and I are both correct about how it will relate to PVE then I have zero interest in the game regardless of how PVP plays out. The whole philosophy of 'nonraiders are peasants' is distateful to me, and I won't financially support it. I also rather doubt that a game that embraces that philosophy for PVE would manage to completely avoid it in PVP. And I know that I would not play the game purely for PVP, that I'd want to do some PVE too, so the situation PVE-wise would directly affect me (especially since, as I understand it, most of the PVP power boosts won't apply to PVE anyway).
[quote]Perhaps this comes down to people like Sturm and I never expecting "balance" to begin with and so "resaonable striking distance" is as good as we ever epxect in an imperfect world anyway.[/wuote]
We're talking about a damn video game. I am not going to pay someone money in order to experience being a second-class-citizen, and trying to excuse it by saying that the world is imperfect is just silly. It's not a matter of the actual percetage, it's the philosophy that 'raid items are better'.
Does anyone else find it a bit odd that the devs are willing to make a direct answer in a foreign language but not in English?
Read the rest of it please, I came back when i did get a hold of a translation. It didn't mean what I had been told it did.
By the by, I don't think its remotely odd, it is after all a Norwegian company, based in Norway, with Norwegian developers, and in this case, talking with a Norwegian gaming site. I would have thought it odd if they hadn't released it in english a few days at the least later though.
No man is an island, entire of itself; every man is a piece of the continent, a part of the main. any man's death diminishes me, because I am involved in mankind, and therefore never send to know for whom the bell tolls; it tolls for thee. Hemingway
Does anyone else find it a bit odd that the devs are willing to make a direct answer in a foreign language but not in English?
Read the rest of it please, I came back when i did get a hold of a translation. It didn't mean what I had been told it did.
By the by, I don't think its remotely odd, it is after all a Norwegian company, based in Norway, with Norwegian developers, and in this case, talking with a Norwegian gaming site. I would have thought it odd if they hadn't released it in english a few days at the least later though.
Sounds like from that and other interviews that they're just trying to please everyone. this could be the downfall of Funcom making this game. Most games focus on a particular crowd, while funcom is trying to give a little bit to everyone.
Hopefully we won't end up having lots of shallow content for every type of play style, but that's the way it's looking as I watch interviews and read the FAQs more thoroughly.
--------------------------------------------- I live to fight, and fight to live.
Originally posted by checkthis500 Sounds like from that and other interviews that they're just trying to please everyone. this could be the downfall of Funcom making this game. Most games focus on a particular crowd, while funcom is trying to give a little bit to everyone.
Hopefully we won't end up having lots of shallow content for every type of play style, but that's the way it's looking as I watch interviews and read the FAQs more thoroughly.
Well, they say they are working on keeping everything dynamic and interesting, from quest storylines to dungeon layouts. Unfortunately, that can mean just about anything. I think they will deliver, but that is one opinion I can't back up.
No man is an island, entire of itself; every man is a piece of the continent, a part of the main. any man's death diminishes me, because I am involved in mankind, and therefore never send to know for whom the bell tolls; it tolls for thee. Hemingway
Does anyone else find it a bit odd that the devs are willing to make a direct answer in a foreign language but not in English?
Read the rest of it please, I came back when i did get a hold of a translation. It didn't mean what I had been told it did.
By the by, I don't think its remotely odd, it is after all a Norwegian company, based in Norway, with Norwegian developers, and in this case, talking with a Norwegian gaming site. I would have thought it odd if they hadn't released it in english a few days at the least later though.
Sounds like from that and other interviews that they're just trying to please everyone. this could be the downfall of Funcom making this game. Most games focus on a particular crowd, while funcom is trying to give a little bit to everyone.
Hopefully we won't end up having lots of shallow content for every type of play style, but that's the way it's looking as I watch interviews and read the FAQs more thoroughly. This is the way to seems to me as well. And certain groups are far more demanding and pernicious than others.
Gee, one more "I've decided I don't like this game, so I'm going to post and post in their forums until I convince people I'm right. Even if the only one I convince is myself, so I feel justified in smearing it to other potential players!" ranter.
Guess what Pantastic? You don't know what's going to be in this game and what's not. None of us really do because it's NOT OUT YET! The only ones who know are the ones in beta. Have you been in the beta? No? Then you know no more than anyone else. Don't like the game? Then go somewhere else where you like to be. Far as I'm concerned, you are trolling and flamebaiting, nothing more.
I trust Funcom. They know how to make a game. AO has made it over 5 years with a new expansion next month coming out, so I'm confident they will make AoC succeed also. just for the record, I don't PvP and I don't raid. AO has PvP and raiding. It has never affected my gameplay.
If raiding or PvP gives the people willing to do it some perks, so what? If I choose to PvP against someone, his gear isn't going to amount to crap if I've learned better tactics and skill with my character. In short, you're not happy with it. Sorry to hear that. Maybe once it's released you'll change your mind. Maybe not. To each their own.
Originally posted by Zorvan Guess what Pantastic? You don't know what's going to be in this game and what's not. None of us really do because it's NOT OUT YET! The only ones who know are the ones in beta. Have you been in the beta? No? Then you know no more than anyone else.
Wait, you mean I'm arguing with as much knowledge of the game as the people I'm arguing with? Oh what I terrible person I am, how dare I discuss a game based on as much knowledge as other people discussing the game! Heaven forbid anyone use basic reason and observation to discuss a game, obviously everyone should just Trust in Funcom and believe the game will be perfect!
Don't like the game? Then go somewhere else where you like to be.
That comment doesn't make much sense, since I like posting to the MMORPG forums discussing games. If I didn't like posting here, I wouldn't post here.
Far as I'm concerned, you are trolling and flamebaiting, nothing more.
That's because gibbering fanboys believe that any real discussion of a game is trolling and flamebaiting and want the forum to be filled with people blindly singing the praises of the game. Ignore the fact that often the praises contradict themselves like...
If raiding or PvP gives the people willing to do it some perks, so what?
See what I mean? Aelfinn has been angrily arguing with me that raiding will not give raiders perks, and has ranted and raved that I'm misleading people by saying that it's likely to. Yet several people, like you, clearly seem to think that it will, but argue that I should like being second-class in the game.
If you really think that raiding will give people willing to do it some perks, why do you object so to my letting people know that it will? You say that I am "smearing" the game by simply discussing raiding in the game, but you don't even seem to really disagree with me over the core issue that I've been discussing all along. If you don't think raiding will give people who do it an advantage over those who don't, why even take that line of argument?
Originally posted by Aelfinn By the by, I don't think its remotely odd, it is after all a Norwegian company, based in Norway, with Norwegian developers, and in this case, talking with a Norwegian gaming site.
I do think it's odd that a gaming company releasing a game to an American market, with a webpage written in English, with forums where discussions are held in English, would make lots of vague comments on those forums in English and only make a clear statement in an obscure language. I think the fact that you siezed on some text that you can't actually read as proof that I'm wrong says quite a bit about which one of us is right.
Originally posted by Zorvan Guess what Pantastic? You don't know what's going to be in this game and what's not. None of us really do because it's NOT OUT YET! The only ones who know are the ones in beta. Have you been in the beta? No? Then you know no more than anyone else.
Wait, you mean I'm arguing with as much knowledge of the game as the people I'm arguing with? Oh what I terrible person I am, how dare I discuss a game based on as much knowledge as other people discussing the game! Heaven forbid anyone use basic reason and observation to discuss a game, obviously everyone should just Trust in Funcom and believe the game will be perfect!
Then why do you act as if you know exactly what every single developer quote "really" means?
Don't like the game? Then go somewhere else where you like to be.
That comment doesn't make much sense, since I like posting to the MMORPG forums discussing games. If I didn't like posting here, I wouldn't post here.
Far as I'm concerned, you are trolling and flamebaiting, nothing more.
That's because gibbering fanboys believe that any real discussion of a game is trolling and flamebaiting and want the forum to be filled with people blindly singing the praises of the game. Ignore the fact that often the praises contradict themselves like...
I'd hardly call this a real discussion, more like people pointing facts out to you and then you blowing them off or ignoring it entirely, that or pointing out insignificant inconsistancies with one or another persons post.
If raiding or PvP gives the people willing to do it some perks, so what?
See what I mean? Aelfinn has been angrily arguing with me that raiding will not give raiders perks, and has ranted and raved that I'm misleading people by saying that it's likely to. Yet several people, like you, clearly seem to think that it will, but argue that I should like being second-class in the game.
A. i've never ranted about anything
B. My concern about your statements is that you don't say it will likely give raiders perks, you say that it will be a raid game.
C. My argument all along has been that raid gear will be comparable with the best gear available elsewhere, with the very best being crafted, and each of the others having their own advantages.
If you really think that raiding will give people willing to do it some perks, why do you object so to my letting people know that it will? You say that I am "smearing" the game by simply discussing raiding in the game, but you don't even seem to really disagree with me over the core issue that I've been discussing all along. If you don't think raiding will give people who do it an advantage over those who don't, why even take that line of argument?
Because even if, as I doubt, that raiding does have that effect, calling it a raid game as you have and continue to do, brings to mind the situation in WOW and other games, of which even you have agreed it won't be as bad. If you really wanted to spread information about the game and let people know and make a decision for themselves, give them the facts, not a blindsided opinion that encourages them to stop looking at the game entirely without a second glance.
Originally posted by Pantastic
Originally posted by Aelfinn By the by, I don't think its remotely odd, it is after all a Norwegian company, based in Norway, with Norwegian developers, and in this case, talking with a Norwegian gaming site.
I do think it's odd that a gaming company releasing a game to an American market, with a webpage written in English, with forums where discussions are held in English, would make lots of vague comments on those forums in English and only make a clear statement in an obscure language. I think the fact that you siezed on some text that you can't actually read as proof that I'm wrong says quite a bit about which one of us is right.
If Funcom had released a statement that directly said that raid items will be hugely better than anything else, maybe even coming along with an indirect insult to nonraiders. Regardless of the language, can you honestly say you would not have pointed it out?
No man is an island, entire of itself; every man is a piece of the continent, a part of the main. any man's death diminishes me, because I am involved in mankind, and therefore never send to know for whom the bell tolls; it tolls for thee. Hemingway
Originally posted by Pantastic Originally posted by Zorvan Guess what Pantastic? You don't know what's going to be in this game and what's not. None of us really do because it's NOT OUT YET! The only ones who know are the ones in beta. Have you been in the beta? No? Then you know no more than anyone else. Wait, you mean I'm arguing with as much knowledge of the game as the people I'm arguing with? Oh what I terrible person I am, how dare I discuss a game based on as much knowledge as other people discussing the game! Heaven forbid anyone use basic reason and observation to discuss a game, obviously everyone should just Trust in Funcom and believe the game will be perfect!Discussing and flaming a game are two different things.Don't like the game? Then go somewhere else where you like to be. That comment doesn't make much sense, since I like posting to the MMORPG forums discussing games. If I didn't like posting here, I wouldn't post here.Pretty self explainatory. I didn't say leave mmorpg.com, I just said to find a game you like instead of sitting here bashing one you don't, when you have no proof of the things you are bashing it for.Far as I'm concerned, you are trolling and flamebaiting, nothing more.
That's because gibbering fanboys believe that any real discussion of a game is trolling and flamebaiting and want the forum to be filled with people blindly singing the praises of the game. Ignore the fact that often the praises contradict themselves like...
As well as the bashings tend to contradict themselves as well. Liking a game and taking it for what it is until something is shown to disprove it's description does not constitute fanboism.
If raiding or PvP gives the people willing to do it some perks, so what?
See what I mean? Aelfinn has been angrily arguing with me that raiding will not give raiders perks, and has ranted and raved that I'm misleading people by saying that it's likely to. Yet several people, like you, clearly seem to think that it will, but argue that I should like being second-class in the game.
Amazing what you can get out of someone's post, considering I neither said there would be raiding or that I believed there would be; nor did I say anyone should like being second-class. The key word of what you quoted is "IF".
If you really think that raiding will give people willing to do it some perks, why do you object so to my letting people know that it will? You say that I am "smearing" the game by simply discussing raiding in the game, but you don't even seem to really disagree with me over the core issue that I've been discussing all along. If you don't think raiding will give people who do it an advantage over those who don't, why even take that line of argument?
Again, you fail to see the word "IF". You have also failed to see that I said even IF it did have raids with some of the best gear, if you are more skillful than that person ( since you choose each swing, spell, whatever), gear doesn't mean squat.
why dont we all just calm down, have a nice big pint of ale and relax. Its thanksgiving time when people forget their diffences and come togther to celebrate what they are thankful for. So lets stop the flame war and get a different post going. Each person has good points but no one is going to win, and if you dont stop, he will come after you.
Comments
And that's wonderful as far as I'm concerned. The more people that block out raid games, the less money companies make from raiding games. If Funcom doesn't want people blocking them out, they could have made something that's not a raid game, but they've clearly chosen to make a raid game. Even your friend Sturm can't stomach the full smokescreen
This is not a goddam raid game, saying that Funcom "clearly" has chosen to make is so is an extreme distortion of the truth. The truth is YOU DO NOT KNOW squat about how this game will turn out.
Ahh, now you're just posting an outright lie, which is what I've come to expect here. I most definately have not said that the game is going to be a 'raidfest', your buddy Sturm is the only one to even use that term, and I've said nothing equivalent to 'most of the content in this game will be raids' which is what raidfest implies to most people.
The fact that you can't manage to argue with what I've actually said says a lot.
"Age of Conan was high on my list, but dropped to the bottom since the developers have made it clear it's just going to be another raid game, I was going to buy it at release but now won't touch it for at least 6 months after release, if ever."
So then, are you going to deny that the above quote is yours? Don't try to deny it by playing semantics
"Fast Talking" implies deception, it's the kind of thing used car salesmen do. You wouldn't need fast talking if simply stating the truth would work.
I did tell the truth, yours was the deception I had to get around. All I was asking for the people in question to do was look at the information and DECIDE for themselves. Something of which you stated before was your goal
No man is an island, entire of itself; every man is a piece of the continent, a part of the main. any man's death diminishes me, because I am involved in mankind, and therefore never send to know for whom the bell tolls; it tolls for thee.
Hemingway
If you hate raids so much, why are you so nonchalant about Funcom's decision to give raiders an advantage in PVP?
Because he and I both have looked at the EVIDENCE, not the conjecture, and therefore know that Funcom has not and never did make such a decision.
You talk like you're a raider, if you stopped defending the 'raiders should get better stuff' and 'there's something wrong with you if you have a problem with raiders getting better stuff' nonsense then maybe you wouldn't seem like one. I simply don't believe that you actually "HATE" raids, since you're fine with a game putting you at a disadvantage for not playing them.
And since I haven't used EITHER of those terms, how is that relevant? You've chosen to use terms that have the connotation that most of the game content is raids, but I have not, nor have I made a claim equivalent to saying that most of the game content is raids.
Right, so the problem is? Seriously, your argument boils down to this game giving an advantage to raid equipment (which it does not). That very concept forces the content for any serious players to revolve around raids, regardless of the ratios, thus raidcentric perfectly describes your view of the game.
Did you miss this part of what you quoted "I've been very clear all along in what I object to, and it's not anything like 'most of the content is raids', which is what terms like raidfest and raid-centric conjure up for most people"? The dishonesty here is that you're claiming that I have used those terms, when I haven't. It's amusing that you're misrepresenting what I said then, when called on it, try to pretend that I'm misrepresenting you.
No man is an island, entire of itself; every man is a piece of the continent, a part of the main. any man's death diminishes me, because I am involved in mankind, and therefore never send to know for whom the bell tolls; it tolls for thee.
Hemingway
Funcom is making a game in which raiders get better rewards than nonraiders, therefore they're making a raid game. Even Strum clearly agrees as much as he tries to wriggle out of it, from his statements it's clear the expects raid gear to be better than nonraid gear, just not enough to be 'overpowering'.
But hey...
So are you saying that your pal Sturm is wrong? Because it's clear from his comments that he expects raiding gear to provide an advantage, just not an overbalancing one. You can see this from his comments about how he'll be fine with a 10% edge from raid gear, and how he got so irate when I said that I'd consider a 1% advantage overbalancing.
So now you're saying that if the game gives any advantage to raid equipment, then it's a raidcentric game? Because the stuff you've quoted and the stuff Sturm has said clearly says that they expect an advantage, just not an "overbalancing" one from raid equipment, so it appears that you're saying that if Sturm is correct, you will consider AOC a 'raid-centric' game?
Deny what? That I said it's going to be a raid game and not a 'raidfest' or 'raid-centric''? You guys quoting me not saying something to prove that I said it is most amusing.
Funcom is making a game in which raiders get better rewards than nonraiders, therefore they're making a raid game. Even Strum clearly agrees as much as he tries to wriggle out of it, from his statements it's clear the expects raid gear to be better than nonraid gear, just not enough to be 'overpowering'.
But hey...
So are you saying that your pal Sturm is wrong? Because it's clear from his comments that he expects raiding gear to provide an advantage, just not an overbalancing one. You can see this from his comments about how he'll be fine with a 10% edge from raid gear, and how he got so irate when I said that I'd consider a 1% advantage overbalancing.
So now you're saying that if the game gives any advantage to raid equipment, then it's a raidcentric game? Because the stuff you've quoted and the stuff Sturm has said clearly says that they expect an advantage, just not an "overbalancing" one from raid equipment, so it appears that you're saying that if Sturm is correct, you will consider AOC a 'raid-centric' game?
Deny what? That I said it's going to be a raid game and not a 'raidfest' or 'raid-centric''? You guys quoting me not saying something to prove that I said it is most amusing.
Perhaps this comes down to people like Sturm and I never expecting "balance" to begin with and so "resaonable striking distance" is as good as we ever epxect in an imperfect world anyway.
Sturm and I differ on our expectations of what will happen and how the game will be maintained. But I do not think his "1% isn't such a big deal" is really that bad of a poin of view.
A second note is that you seem to separate raider and non-raider. Does non-raider include PvP? PvP will suposedly have 20 PvP exclusive levels of advancement for obtianing PvP only feats how does that fit into the 1%/10% calculation?
If we were talking pure PvE I would not argue your point about it being a raiding game. Clearly raiders will be exalted as that cream of the crop in PvE. PvE groupers will be peasants and that is that. The only real question is how PvE raiding will relate to PvP in power. Of coruse the best rewarding PvP will also involve raid sized groups fighting each other, but I am uncertain whether this is an issue with most people. It is not for me personally. I merely hate PvE raiding and that is mostly a hatred for PvE single Boss raiding, although I also hate the creation of the peasant class that is forced onto groupers.
- Tassu
"Lick My Weapons"
omg Pantastic you have to be some hardcore nerd ... been reading this topic and rofling on your posts.
First of all HOW do you want you uber-endgame-killer items to be obtained?? Go out, kill a rat or a leet and there you go with your Helm of Eternal Night. Huh ... another sabre .. here it is my Sword of Bloodthirsty. Cmon ffs .. in a week ALL players would wonder around in same uber endgame items. There have to be HARD and PAINFULL to get endgame. EOD.
There is ppl that actually like raids .. I do. But I am Anarchy Online player (hint ** Funcom MMO) not some borred wower. I also like pvp ... mostly GvG pvp. And you know what? In AO best pvp AND pve endgame armor and items and weapons are NOT COMMING FROM RAIDS!!! Even better, IT IS TRADEABLE! But now you will complain "OMG I have to grind credits/gold/horse shit... to buy it!!". Buy yourself Oblivion, Gothic ... and enjoy. ALL MMOs have and will have some kind of grind to get endgame/best items. Otherwise it is not MMO ... or it is but with a lifespan of 2-3 months. What I am trying to say here is that Funcom with their first MMO didnt made "raidfest" (endgame raids are pretty short, best pvp items are soloable, not coming from raids anyway AND tradable). I doubt they will do it now when raidfests tnx to wow is getting so bad reputation. On other side that drops of best items are RARE, realy rare ... but they are soloable and in 90% tradeable.
PvE (raids) can live with PvP and not clash together. Amen
UO had no raiding or uber items for quite some time. In fact many argue the introduction of uber items caused UO to take a serious hit.
There are no analogs to the uber items you talk about in Eve. The closest things are certain huge captial type ships with very specialzied purposes only useful to large corporations.
Do people need goals and things to do for some time? Yeah sure. But your uber item model is not a necessity and has specific examples that refute it.
In short your reasoning about the nature of MMOs is flawed and historically inaccurate, irregardless of the quality of Pantastic's post.
well gestalt11 sure ... remove raids (aka big bosses), teams/groups (aka small bosses), remove quests, remove tradeskills, remove guilds (non belivable but some guy really made a post complaining about "too much guild play and team play in AoC" o.0) for a Zeus sake remove also all items. Then, just make some landscape, put in some rabbits and frogs, take THE sword (btw same as all other 3 players of that "game" have) in your hands and go play that "game". And then you try some "pvp" ... with a NPC.
EDIT: I realy dont get it why complaining about raiding? Dont like it?? Dont raid. Uber item system sux? Wield an average/beginner item. Its all about choices. AoC will sux deep ?? Buy some other game and be happy.
Nerf ... why do I even bother
Finally some hardcore evidence:
http://gamer.no/intervju/pc/funcom_svarer_leserne_-_del_2/33467
Its in Norwegian, and I am currently trying to find a reliable english translation, but the paragraph I wish to point out in particular states that all lootable items will be available for everyone, irregardless of playstyle. Even if you only log in for 30 minutes or so at a time, which is way too short for any kind of raids, even the shortened raids found here. According to the explaination, it just might take 12 hours worth of playtime in 30 minute spurts to get something that you can get in 3 hours straight.
Obviously the above example is just that, an example
EDIT: Damn, disregard the above please, my freind didn't translate the meaning well. Heres what it really says, that is to say almost nothing at all aside from the developers stated intent, but thats been known (and disregarded) for a while
- Age of Conan is definately a game where you can just play a little each session. We have tried to go away from the trend we quite often see in online games, where you have to play alot to get the most out of the game. This is something we went away from right from the early development of the game.
- We won't reward the people that play alot, other than that they achieve things faster. Age of Conan is also designed for the average player in mind, and you can achieve the same as everyone else regardless of how much you play. The difference would then be that it would take you abit longer time than everyone else. But we have implemented a series of different functions that makes it possible for people to play with their friends, even if their friends have progressed further in the game. We have specifically tried to make a game where you won't have to sit hours on hours upon end to get full enjoyment from it. At the same time it is worth mentioning that there is tons of content for those that play alot aswell.
No man is an island, entire of itself; every man is a piece of the continent, a part of the main. any man's death diminishes me, because I am involved in mankind, and therefore never send to know for whom the bell tolls; it tolls for thee.
Hemingway
Too much time and space spent for many of you people, discussing something you couldn't even see (only closed beta for employees so far), so I'm not going to discuss, just going to point you all in the right direction:
Just type "age of conan" in youtube.com, and see many many AMAZING videos from various game conventions.
This is going to be the mother and father of all MMORPGs, at least for more mature audience (but those who appreciate fast combat system, and all other goodies rarely seen in online games, like siege combat).
Check out this short video about mounts in AoC, just for example:
And this is something interesting for anyone who likes collectible card gaming:
http://www.comicimages.com/conan/
NEW IDEAS that can refresh the STALE state of MMORPGs
Being called a 'hardcore nerd' by someone who likes raiding is just amusing. "Oh, you're a hardcore nerd, you don't like the raiding lifestyle and don't want to schedule your life around a video game" is pretty funny when you think about it.
If you've read all of my posts in this thread, you'll see that I've already answered this, and even commented on strange delusion that there's no such thing as group content.
So Podla, just to be clear, you think that in AOC you will get better gear by raiding than by not raiding? Because that's exactly the opposite of what Aelfinn keeps arguing. It seems odd that you'd come in attempting to insult if you agree completely with my evaluation of the game and planned course of action.
I'm sure it matters for some people, but if you and I are both correct about how it will relate to PVE then I have zero interest in the game regardless of how PVP plays out. The whole philosophy of 'nonraiders are peasants' is distateful to me, and I won't financially support it. I also rather doubt that a game that embraces that philosophy for PVE would manage to completely avoid it in PVP. And I know that I would not play the game purely for PVP, that I'd want to do some PVE too, so the situation PVE-wise would directly affect me (especially since, as I understand it, most of the PVP power boosts won't apply to PVE anyway).
[quote]Perhaps this comes down to people like Sturm and I never expecting "balance" to begin with and so "resaonable striking distance" is as good as we ever epxect in an imperfect world anyway.[/wuote]
We're talking about a damn video game. I am not going to pay someone money in order to experience being a second-class-citizen, and trying to excuse it by saying that the world is imperfect is just silly. It's not a matter of the actual percetage, it's the philosophy that 'raid items are better'.
Does anyone else find it a bit odd that the devs are willing to make a direct answer in a foreign language but not in English?
Does anyone else find it a bit odd that the devs are willing to make a direct answer in a foreign language but not in English?
Read the rest of it please, I came back when i did get a hold of a translation. It didn't mean what I had been told it did.
By the by, I don't think its remotely odd, it is after all a Norwegian company, based in Norway, with Norwegian developers, and in this case, talking with a Norwegian gaming site. I would have thought it odd if they hadn't released it in english a few days at the least later though.
No man is an island, entire of itself; every man is a piece of the continent, a part of the main. any man's death diminishes me, because I am involved in mankind, and therefore never send to know for whom the bell tolls; it tolls for thee.
Hemingway
Hopefully we won't end up having lots of shallow content for every type of play style, but that's the way it's looking as I watch interviews and read the FAQs more thoroughly.
---------------------------------------------
I live to fight, and fight to live.
No man is an island, entire of itself; every man is a piece of the continent, a part of the main. any man's death diminishes me, because I am involved in mankind, and therefore never send to know for whom the bell tolls; it tolls for thee.
Hemingway
Does anyone else find it a bit odd that the devs are willing to make a direct answer in a foreign language but not in English?
Read the rest of it please, I came back when i did get a hold of a translation. It didn't mean what I had been told it did.
By the by, I don't think its remotely odd, it is after all a Norwegian company, based in Norway, with Norwegian developers, and in this case, talking with a Norwegian gaming site. I would have thought it odd if they hadn't released it in english a few days at the least later though.
Sounds like from that and other interviews that they're just trying to please everyone. this could be the downfall of Funcom making this game. Most games focus on a particular crowd, while funcom is trying to give a little bit to everyone.
Hopefully we won't end up having lots of shallow content for every type of play style, but that's the way it's looking as I watch interviews and read the FAQs more thoroughly.
This is the way to seems to me as well. And certain groups are far more demanding and pernicious than others.
Gee, one more "I've decided I don't like this game, so I'm going to post and post in their forums until I convince people I'm right. Even if the only one I convince is myself, so I feel justified in smearing it to other potential players!" ranter.
Guess what Pantastic? You don't know what's going to be in this game and what's not. None of us really do because it's NOT OUT YET! The only ones who know are the ones in beta. Have you been in the beta? No? Then you know no more than anyone else. Don't like the game? Then go somewhere else where you like to be. Far as I'm concerned, you are trolling and flamebaiting, nothing more.
I trust Funcom. They know how to make a game. AO has made it over 5 years with a new expansion next month coming out, so I'm confident they will make AoC succeed also. just for the record, I don't PvP and I don't raid. AO has PvP and raiding. It has never affected my gameplay.
If raiding or PvP gives the people willing to do it some perks, so what? If I choose to PvP against someone, his gear isn't going to amount to crap if I've learned better tactics and skill with my character. In short, you're not happy with it. Sorry to hear that. Maybe once it's released you'll change your mind. Maybe not. To each their own.
Wait, you mean I'm arguing with as much knowledge of the game as the people I'm arguing with? Oh what I terrible person I am, how dare I discuss a game based on as much knowledge as other people discussing the game! Heaven forbid anyone use basic reason and observation to discuss a game, obviously everyone should just Trust in Funcom and believe the game will be perfect!
That comment doesn't make much sense, since I like posting to the MMORPG forums discussing games. If I didn't like posting here, I wouldn't post here.
That's because gibbering fanboys believe that any real discussion of a game is trolling and flamebaiting and want the forum to be filled with people blindly singing the praises of the game. Ignore the fact that often the praises contradict themselves like...
See what I mean? Aelfinn has been angrily arguing with me that raiding will not give raiders perks, and has ranted and raved that I'm misleading people by saying that it's likely to. Yet several people, like you, clearly seem to think that it will, but argue that I should like being second-class in the game.
If you really think that raiding will give people willing to do it some perks, why do you object so to my letting people know that it will? You say that I am "smearing" the game by simply discussing raiding in the game, but you don't even seem to really disagree with me over the core issue that I've been discussing all along. If you don't think raiding will give people who do it an advantage over those who don't, why even take that line of argument?
I do think it's odd that a gaming company releasing a game to an American market, with a webpage written in English, with forums where discussions are held in English, would make lots of vague comments on those forums in English and only make a clear statement in an obscure language. I think the fact that you siezed on some text that you can't actually read as proof that I'm wrong says quite a bit about which one of us is right.
Wait, you mean I'm arguing with as much knowledge of the game as the people I'm arguing with? Oh what I terrible person I am, how dare I discuss a game based on as much knowledge as other people discussing the game! Heaven forbid anyone use basic reason and observation to discuss a game, obviously everyone should just Trust in Funcom and believe the game will be perfect!
Then why do you act as if you know exactly what every single developer quote "really" means?
That comment doesn't make much sense, since I like posting to the MMORPG forums discussing games. If I didn't like posting here, I wouldn't post here.
That's because gibbering fanboys believe that any real discussion of a game is trolling and flamebaiting and want the forum to be filled with people blindly singing the praises of the game. Ignore the fact that often the praises contradict themselves like...
I'd hardly call this a real discussion, more like people pointing facts out to you and then you blowing them off or ignoring it entirely, that or pointing out insignificant inconsistancies with one or another persons post.
See what I mean? Aelfinn has been angrily arguing with me that raiding will not give raiders perks, and has ranted and raved that I'm misleading people by saying that it's likely to. Yet several people, like you, clearly seem to think that it will, but argue that I should like being second-class in the game.
A. i've never ranted about anything
B. My concern about your statements is that you don't say it will likely give raiders perks, you say that it will be a raid game.
C. My argument all along has been that raid gear will be comparable with the best gear available elsewhere, with the very best being crafted, and each of the others having their own advantages.
If you really think that raiding will give people willing to do it some perks, why do you object so to my letting people know that it will? You say that I am "smearing" the game by simply discussing raiding in the game, but you don't even seem to really disagree with me over the core issue that I've been discussing all along. If you don't think raiding will give people who do it an advantage over those who don't, why even take that line of argument?
Because even if, as I doubt, that raiding does have that effect, calling it a raid game as you have and continue to do, brings to mind the situation in WOW and other games, of which even you have agreed it won't be as bad. If you really wanted to spread information about the game and let people know and make a decision for themselves, give them the facts, not a blindsided opinion that encourages them to stop looking at the game entirely without a second glance.
Originally posted by Pantastic
I do think it's odd that a gaming company releasing a game to an American market, with a webpage written in English, with forums where discussions are held in English, would make lots of vague comments on those forums in English and only make a clear statement in an obscure language. I think the fact that you siezed on some text that you can't actually read as proof that I'm wrong says quite a bit about which one of us is right.
If Funcom had released a statement that directly said that raid items will be hugely better than anything else, maybe even coming along with an indirect insult to nonraiders. Regardless of the language, can you honestly say you would not have pointed it out?
No man is an island, entire of itself; every man is a piece of the continent, a part of the main. any man's death diminishes me, because I am involved in mankind, and therefore never send to know for whom the bell tolls; it tolls for thee.
Hemingway
That's because gibbering fanboys believe that any real discussion of a game is trolling and flamebaiting and want the forum to be filled with people blindly singing the praises of the game. Ignore the fact that often the praises contradict themselves like...
As well as the bashings tend to contradict themselves as well. Liking a game and taking it for what it is until something is shown to disprove it's description does not constitute fanboism.
If raiding or PvP gives the people willing to do it some perks, so what?
See what I mean? Aelfinn has been angrily arguing with me that raiding will not give raiders perks, and has ranted and raved that I'm misleading people by saying that it's likely to. Yet several people, like you, clearly seem to think that it will, but argue that I should like being second-class in the game.
Amazing what you can get out of someone's post, considering I neither said there would be raiding or that I believed there would be; nor did I say anyone should like being second-class. The key word of what you quoted is "IF".
If you really think that raiding will give people willing to do it some perks, why do you object so to my letting people know that it will? You say that I am "smearing" the game by simply discussing raiding in the game, but you don't even seem to really disagree with me over the core issue that I've been discussing all along. If you don't think raiding will give people who do it an advantage over those who don't, why even take that line of argument?
Again, you fail to see the word "IF". You have also failed to see that I said even IF it did have raids with some of the best gear, if you are more skillful than that person ( since you choose each swing, spell, whatever), gear doesn't mean squat.
I r teh meatshield
Death before Dishonor.