This thread feels like a pre-EQ2 post. Back when everyone was hyping the EQ2 VS WoW releases...(good thing that fight was over in the first round)
Anyway as a former EQ1 and WoW player let me step in and give you an update on the "Vision" for those of you still in diapers in 99.
The Vision episode 1: The Community Menace
Everquest, Back in 99 this game was rich and groundbreaking for those lucky enough to play it...or was it? It sure seemed that way at the time but as levels progressed I began to "feel" the vision if not understand it or even have a name for its evil.
By 50 I knew it well...It had sorted me into my place along with the rest of server. At the top were a couple guilds, fanatics, of a sort.. those who grinded out the levels fast, formed quick social networks, gained a monopoly on the early boss's. Thanks to very limited endgame respawns those two guilds controlled every advantage.
Next came everyone else, the other 95% of the server in "The Vision". Here you find casuals, groupers, the guildless, soloers, even power gamers that for whatever reason lack the social skills to join one of those top2 guilds.
Most recently this entire scene was replayed out on the "classic" servers. See FoH,RoI and IV.
The Vision episode 2: Attack of the Clone
Vanguard, Not sure what people think their geting here but my moneys on a EQ1 rehash and everything negative the vision braught with it.
* long travel times - check
* forced grouping - check
* Limited endgame availibility to everyone - check
* long xp grind - check
* bottlenecking progress - check
* twinking - check
* Crafting grind - check
* Best items Raiding - check
* harsh death penalty - check
* limited soloing - check
* harsh grindish death penalty - check
* multi boxers prosper - check
* long camps, 72 hour ragefire anyone? - check
* casuals, 2nd rate players - check
* soloers, worst loot in the game - check
* kill stealing - check
* training - check
* Warp Cheaters? we'll ok maybe they wont have this one...maybe....
Originally posted by Shazzel This thread feels like a pre-EQ2 post. Back when everyone was hyping the EQ2 VS WoW releases...(good thing that fight was over in the first round)
Hehe, I find your post funny and would mostly agree with you, if we consider that they stick with what they said and doesn't try to improve. Which is something nobody can claim, not me, not you and not FoH (althought they would love to).
Sigil won't create a casual/core-friendly game right away, thinks more in terms of baby steps. You won't move from a raid-centric game to a casual/core-friendly game in a blink, but progressively. Raid-free servers are the first step toward this, and nobody but Sigil can decide weither they make it or not. Despite everything I said, I still think they can make it, call it blind faith...
I also kinda enjoy reading Celestian, mostly agree with him.
Someone said earlier that the Vision left the power gamers that lack the social skill to end-up in 1 of the 2 major guilds. In my case, I can't speak for anyone else, I, as a power-gamer, was left beside because of my empathy and overall kind attitude, which doesn't bode well at all with these harsh guilds. No matter how much you want to make fun of me, nobody would seriously maintain that I lack these so-called social skills. I don't say that every player with empathy or kind attitude will turn away from these guilds, I just said that it is my empathy and kind attitude that turn me away from these guilds, despite the fact that I am, a power gamer.
- "If I understand you well, you are telling me until next time. " - Ren
Originally posted by Shazzel The Vision episode 2: Attack of the Clone Vanguard, Not sure what people think their geting here but my moneys on a EQ1 rehash and everything negative the vision braught with it. * long travel times - Not true, unless you choose to just go somewhere far away. * forced grouping - Not true. One Beta Tester Journel was done by a guy who said he soloed almost everything to earn his levels. * Limited endgame availibility to everyone - Wow, you counldn't be further off. There already so much endgame content in the game you probably will never come close to doing 1/3 of it. * long xp grind - If you mean a while to level, GOOD. * bottlenecking progress - Not sure what this means. * twinking - Nope. Not in Vanguard. * Crafting grind - LOL... er uh... no. * Best items Raiding - This is just Trolling. Not even close to true. * harsh death penalty - WOOT!!! But seriously, it's really not harsh... * limited soloing - Read above, lol.... * harsh grindish death penalty - No even close. Gotta love commenting on something that's not even true. * multi boxers prosper - ??? If you mean those that use 2 Comps to Camp, then laugh at them.... they're dead... * long camps, 72 hour ragefire anyone? - If you mean Spawn Camping, Vanguard has several systems to stop it. * casuals, 2nd rate players - LOL... wow, now your just making stuff up. * soloers, worst loot in the game - LOL... Again, making up things that aren't even close. * kill stealing - There is no kill stealing in Vanguard, they have a system to stop it. * training - OH NOES!!! IT'S NOT INSTANT!!! Sorry, but I like having to do quests for a MAster to unlock an ability... it's FUN... * Warp Cheaters? we'll ok maybe they wont have this one...maybe....
I'll start my own SWG... with Black Jack... and Hookers!!!
Originally posted by anarchyart Originally posted by Tenen Dont tell them that!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Why on earth are you trying to attract the enormous amount of stupid people and small children to vanguard that read these forums? WoW is not very similar to vanguard at all. It lacks all sense of depth and challenge with very little content to speak of.
If you want an excellent game that will require and be worth a good deal of your time and supply a challenge, play vanguard.
If you've been spoiled by how easy WoW and EQ2 (lately) have made MMORPG's. wait for burning crusade.
HEHE your point is well made, however, I believe that people who truly enjoyed WoW yet seek a bit more deepness and diversity will find a great home in Vanguard. Don't listen to the haters, if you don't want to raid you will NOT be gimped in Vanguard. Also, soloing is a very viable option. Just for certain quests you might have to grind up a few levels so you can solo the tough spots. And did I mention NO INSTANCES? No ppl who likes wow, stays in wow, cause they probably dosent know that other mmorpgs exists out there.
Starwars Galaxies, An Empier Diveded, That's what it says on my box anyway.
Originally posted by thomas.hart We just have different tastes. I personallly don't want to play wow. It's just too easy. With the fast lvling and no punishment i just end up feeling like im chewing up content. It's all the same. Doesn't matter if the ghaphic looks like a scary monster or a halfline. clicking the same buttons over and over just gets a bit dull. Been punished for dieing is what makes the game last. It give me a sense or reward. I personally would prefer no max lvl (as long as the content is there). Vanguard i've heard will be alot like wow. There will be a few changes tho. Such as long traveling times and a harsher death pen. If you don't like this stuff don't play the game. I just don't want to see a million ppl moaning if they don't like it.
Spoken like a true fanatic. Debt != fun. Debt discouraged teaming so much in EQ2 it was unbelievable (last I heard they had to fix the debt system). MMOs that have debt its not uncommon to see teams quickly fall apart as soon as someone dies. In good well designed MMORPGs this is not a problem. In poorly designed rpgs where grind is the goal to keep players paying then that sucks.
Sure, you can say if they offer the content then thats cool. But who wants to just keep fighting the same old mobs over and over til they reach cap. Mobs that doesnt care bout dying- mobs that will respawn a few mins later. Sure a good combat system can mask the boredom but by the time you reach cap even that wont make it much fun
Longer travel times is can be really bad too. If you are trying to hurry and meet up with your group that can really suck. They better have some sort of teleportation for grouping. City of Heroes and WoW nailed this one well. In WoW you can teleport someone via spells. CoX had the best solution- anyone could pickup Recall Friend.
Please at least play the game first before you jump off a cliff with blind fanaticism. Vanguard looks interesting but it doesnt look very original to me like WAR and Age of Conan will be. Another bad thing is that it will have raids . Lastly, the omission of pvp features worry me. I have yet to see a film with any pvp in it.
Slow leveling is just plain tedious. And the lack of instances will make this even more tedious. This means that people will camp spawns and kill steal. I'm no fan of instances but I do like to have a little instancing. Trust me, the lack of instances is gonna hurt you at some point. It will mean more grind for you and more $$$ for Sigil / SOE.
edit- I cant help but think this title will be rushed and pvp will take a back seat. Being able to level via PvP would be good and making it so players can earn top end loot via PvP would also be good. Cause many of us know how crappy raiding can be. Raiding hoping for that rare 5% drop can suck. Being steamrolled by some nerd that has no life, no job all because he's got the best gear and uses no skill isn't all that fun. Sure you could say its fair if he's played longer in a twisted sort of way. But what if I've played just as long as that nerd however lady luck wasnt on my side (gear never dropped) + I never built up enough DKP for the good drops. That sucks and it isnt fair. At least Age Of Conan offers good rewards via PvP. That got my attention more than anything. Vanguard never struck me as a revolutionary title.
My thoughts? Vanguard looks like it might be fun and popular for a bit but its not the sort of game WoW players will embrace. However, it still looks like a decent title and I hope you guys have fun. I might even try it if it beats WAR / AoE to the market
Originally posted by thomas.hart We just have different tastes. I personallly don't want to play wow. It's just too easy. With the fast lvling and no punishment i just end up feeling like im chewing up content. It's all the same. Doesn't matter if the ghaphic looks like a scary monster or a halfline. clicking the same buttons over and over just gets a bit dull. Been punished for dieing is what makes the game last. It give me a sense or reward. I personally would prefer no max lvl (as long as the content is there). Vanguard i've heard will be alot like wow. There will be a few changes tho. Such as long traveling times and a harsher death pen. If you don't like this stuff don't play the game. I just don't want to see a million ppl moaning if they don't like it.
Spoken like a true fanatic. Debt != fun. Debt discouraged teaming so much in EQ2 it was unbelievable (last I heard they had to fix the debt system). MMOs that have debt its not uncommon to see teams quickly fall apart as soon as someone dies. In good well designed MMORPGs this is not a problem. In poorly designed rpgs this is a huge problem.
Please at least play the game first before you jump off a cliff with blind fanaticism. Vanguard looks interesting but it doesnt look very original to me like WAR and Age of Conan will be. Another bad thing is that it will have raids . Lastly, the omission of pvp features worry me. I have yet to see a film with any pvp in it.
If you read his post you'd see him say in the first sentence "we all have different tastes" and then proceed to use "me/I personally" a number of times. He thinks he's going to like the game for what it is, and doesn't care to see the constant bitching that goes on with any game because it wasn't designed for them. Yeah, it happens no matter what, and sometimes it has actual meaning, but I understand his point.
So maybe you should take your own advice, and before you jump off a cliff and call him a fanatic at least try to understand that he's talking about his opinion.
Originally posted by Shazzel This thread feels like a pre-EQ2 post. Back when everyone was hyping the EQ2 VS WoW releases...(good thing that fight was over in the first round) Anyway as a former EQ1 and WoW player let me step in and give you an update on the "Vision" for those of you still in diapers in 99.
The Vision episode 1: The Community Menace Everquest, Back in 99 this game was rich and groundbreaking for those lucky enough to play it...or was it? It sure seemed that way at the time but as levels progressed I began to "feel" the vision if not understand it or even have a name for its evil. By 50 I knew it well...It had sorted me into my place along with the rest of server. At the top were a couple guilds, fanatics, of a sort.. those who grinded out the levels fast, formed quick social networks, gained a monopoly on the early boss's. Thanks to very limited endgame respawns those two guilds controlled every advantage. Next came everyone else, the other 95% of the server in "The Vision". Here you find casuals, groupers, the guildless, soloers, even power gamers that for whatever reason lack the social skills to join one of those top2 guilds. Most recently this entire scene was replayed out on the "classic" servers. See FoH,RoI and IV.
The Vision episode 2: Attack of the Clone Vanguard, Not sure what people think their geting here but my moneys on a EQ1 rehash and everything negative the vision braught with it. * long travel times - check * forced grouping - check * Limited endgame availibility to everyone - check * long xp grind - check * bottlenecking progress - check * twinking - check * Crafting grind - check * Best items Raiding - check * harsh death penalty - check * limited soloing - check * harsh grindish death penalty - check * multi boxers prosper - check * long camps, 72 hour ragefire anyone? - check * casuals, 2nd rate players - check * soloers, worst loot in the game - check * kill stealing - check * training - check * Warp Cheaters? we'll ok maybe they wont have this one...maybe....
This is a good post I can sense the burnout in you bro it dwells within my inner being as well. Let's keep our fingers crossed for something revolutionary (besides Guild Wars). Age of Conan and WAR both look promising but we have to wait to see
Where is this depth I keep hearing about???? Will someone please explain to me this depth Vanguard has?? It sounds nice and all but I really doubt the game has 'depth'. To get the best items you can raid or craft am I right? How exactly will crafting be fun? Press a button when you have collected x amount of y and wait for your little toon to finish 'making' whatever he is trying to make. WOO! I hope there is a trial, so I can see the depth this game has because I really can't see it at all from what I have read. WoW has about as much depth as vanguard. I am just ranting but seriously this game will blow. Grind ftw!
Originally posted by Synyster777 Where is this depth I keep hearing about???? Will someone please explain to me this depth Vanguard has?? It sounds nice and all but I really doubt the game has 'depth'. To get the best items you can raid or craft am I right? How exactly will crafting be fun? Press a button when you have collected x amount of y and wait for your little toon to finish 'making' whatever he is trying to make. WOO! I hope there is a trial, so I can see the depth this game has because I really can't see it at all from what I have read. WoW has about as much depth as vanguard. I am just ranting but seriously this game will blow. Grind ftw!
LOLZ think what you want about this game, the videos and vast community speaks for itself, check out this video . http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sF7dniRWPAs It's on player housing it all looks amazing
Originally posted by Shazzel The Vision episode 2: Attack of the Clone Vanguard, Not sure what people think their geting here but my moneys on a EQ1 rehash and everything negative the vision braught with it. * long travel times - Not true, unless you choose to just go somewhere far away. * forced grouping - Not true. One Beta Tester Journel was done by a guy who said he soloed almost everything to earn his levels. * Limited endgame availibility to everyone - Wow, you counldn't be further off. There already so much endgame content in the game you probably will never come close to doing 1/3 of it. * long xp grind - If you mean a while to level, GOOD. * bottlenecking progress - Not sure what this means. * twinking - Nope. Not in Vanguard. * Crafting grind - LOL... er uh... no. * Best items Raiding - This is just Trolling. Not even close to true. * harsh death penalty - WOOT!!! But seriously, it's really not harsh... * limited soloing - Read above, lol.... * harsh grindish death penalty - No even close. Gotta love commenting on something that's not even true. * multi boxers prosper - ??? If you mean those that use 2 Comps to Camp, then laugh at them.... they're dead... * long camps, 72 hour ragefire anyone? - If you mean Spawn Camping, Vanguard has several systems to stop it. * casuals, 2nd rate players - LOL... wow, now your just making stuff up. * soloers, worst loot in the game - LOL... Again, making up things that aren't even close. * kill stealing - There is no kill stealing in Vanguard, they have a system to stop it. * training - OH NOES!!! IT'S NOT INSTANT!!! Sorry, but I like having to do quests for a MAster to unlock an ability... it's FUN... * Warp Cheaters? we'll ok maybe they wont have this one...maybe....
* long travel times - Not true, unless you choose to just go somewhere far away.
LOL ok so ... I wont have to travel far unless I want to go somewhere.. ya got me.
* forced grouping - Not true. One Beta Tester Journel was done by a guy who said he soloed almost everything to earn his levels.
People could solo in EQ1 as well, it simply took x2-x4 times longer and offered far less rewards.
* Limited endgame availibility to everyone - Wow, you counldn't be further off. There already so much endgame content in the game you probably will never come close to doing 1/3 of it.
See *bottlenecking* People only care about the "Best" items which is where limited availibility comes into play with regards to the "vision".
* long xp grind - If you mean a while to level, GOOD.
I said GRIND.. Goto point A kill mobs for 8 hours, repeat for 180 days.
* bottlenecking progress - Not sure what this means.
IF you dont know what bottlenecking is you obviously have not played Early EQ1 (Brads game). As such your commenting here is questionable.
* twinking - Nope. Not in Vanguard.
Your sir are out of your element, so I will direct you to this post made by brad.
Aradune Mithara: There will be twinks.First, there is good twinking (when you twink yourself, which encourages replayability) and then there is bad twinking, when you just hand items to random people that are higher level than they are, giving them an advantage in-game and essentially robbing them of the sense of satisfaction of earning the item themselves. The latter also accelerates MUDflation.
For good twinking, we have the Veteran System, where, say, you have a level 30 character and you make a new second character and equip him with some items from your level 30 character. Because we know you have a level 30 character, we will reward you for creating an alt and experiencing other aspects of Vanguard (different areas, different classes, different races, etc.). How will we reward you? In Vanguard, items are scaled such that if a lower level character gets a high level item, while it is slightly better than an item around his level, its not as powerful as if it were wielded by a character closer to the level of the item. With the Veteran system, the item scaling isnt as severe. While your twinked alt wont be godlike, he will be a bit more powerful, noticeably so, and thus you are rewarded and encouraged to play through the game with multiple characters and also play the game longer.
* Crafting grind -LOL... er uh... no.
LOL ... er uh I dunno what to say so ill say "uh er um daaah"
* Best items Raiding - This is just Trolling. Not even close to true.
/yawn Here is another reply from Brad
Q Will the best loot come only from raids?
Aradune Mithara: Many of them will, but many will also be available to groups. Often the very best items will require a long time commitment
* harsh death penalty - WOOT!!! But seriously, it's really not harsh...
I personaly might agree with you here, but the majority wont. Either way its nothing to "WooT" about.
* limited soloing - Read above, lol....
What would i read...? Most of your comments have been off base and irrelevant, clearly showing a lack of education on Verant and Sigil.
* harsh grindish death penalty - No even close. Gotta love commenting on something that's not even true.
Facts? O you have none so i guess ill take your word on it..
* multi boxers prosper - ??? If you mean those that use 2 Comps to Camp, then laugh at them.... they're dead...
Obviously you have had extensive experiance with 5-6 boxers. I mean these guys are all complete "noobs" and would never gain an unfair advantage with their hardware and use of 3rd party programs.
* long camps, 72 hour ragefire anyone? - If you mean Spawn Camping, Vanguard has several systems to stop it.
Not talking about Mx13 and his noobie group camping the same gnolls for 12 hours. Im citing rare spawns for epics etc, taking upwards for 24-75 hours to (re)spawn.
* casuals, 2nd rate players - LOL... wow, now your just making stuff up.
Really? Im glad you cleared that up. Lets take a look on Brads opinion on it.
Aradune Mithara: The most powerful items will likely require contiguous time commitments involving a lot of people.
* soloers, worst loot in the game - LOL... Again, making up things that aren't even close.
Ill let Brad take this one for me.
Aradune Mithara: Some of the best items will come from conventional raiding (large groups of people participating in long contiguous adventures). Some will come from long adventures consisting of less people and more importantly, while a lot of time will have to be invested, the content will be such that all of that time doesn't have to be contiguous.
* kill stealing - There is no kill stealing in Vanguard, they have a system to stop it.
NOT even a grey area where a person camping rare_gnoll for 6 hours cant have it instantly taken on its spawn by a passing threw mage? Then pass it off as legit since he had first strike?
So happy you could help clear up this up with your Insightfull examples.
* training - OH NOES!!! IT'S NOT INSTANT!!! Sorry, but I like having to do quests for a MAster to unlock an ability... it's FUN...
Wow this one went righttt over your head. In any case maybe someone else can take this one from jr Einstein.
I will think what I want, that is the point of discussions. I have seen the player housing video clip before and it all looks dandy and whatnot but I still don't see how that creates depth, it just creates another set of items to collect and/or craft (things that go in your house). THE DEPTH IS KILLING ME! Oh yeah the FAQ, thats a decent sized FAQ and I have read it before, from my experiance you shouldn't believe everything a FAQ says. I will assume everything on the FAQ is true for the sake of this topic. Lines like this make me kinda sick "we're about freedom, doing what you want, but not about long hours, camping, and frustration. We offer so much more than the current games that are out there -- please read through this FAQ, our message boards, etc. and find out about the *real* Vanguard: Saga of Heroes -- thanks!" Omg are you saying there will be long hours watsoever? Reality check this is an MMO, long hours being the middle name of MMO. Even the way they indirectly answer there own FAQ questions makes me suspicious about the games true self. Alot of these features sound nice but in reality there is nothing extremely new or groundbreaking being made here, I still fail to see this amazing depth. Don't get me wrong I am not a Vanguard hater. I am just facing reality with these games. I will try them all and judge for myself.
example of indirectly answered question:
- 4.5.1 How will you achieve this in combat?
Easy to learn, hard to master sums up our concept of combat in Vanguard. .You will have to think about the results you want to achieve in combat, as well as how youre going to achieve them. You will need to counter and respond to tactics and strategies your opponents might employ.
I really don't see how that answered the question of how they will achieve a balance between twitch and stragetic combat do you? Also since when were the latest mmo's sit back and auto-attack? As far as I knew most mmo's have skills you use not just auto-attack.
Originally posted by nethaniah LOLZ think what you want about this game, the videos and vast community speaks for itself, check out this video . http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sF7dniRWPAs It's on player housing it all looks amazing
Yes I must admit the player housing looks truly well done. I didn't expect them to go so far as to let players run a business from it. All these concepts existed in EQ2 as well I believe though (not being negative just stating the truth as I recall). I wonder how available player housing will be? For instance, will they make you pay high taxes? Will the houses be affordable to casual players? Just asking out of curiosity....
Looks like they are really making a strong focus on the social aspects of the game which is nice. I guess what I want is a hardcore pvp system however Vanguard still looks like a good MMO that I will for sure follow the development on.
If you want to be taken seriously you should try reading entire posts instead of the last page and/or one line. On a side note paragraphs, sentences and point of context are your friends.
Anyone who is playing wow, but hasn't played eq1, should consider buying a copy of eq1. This way you can get some time into the old vision and ways of playing to see if it is really your cup of tea.
Originally posted by Shazzel * long xp grind - If you mean a while to level, GOOD. I said GRIND.. Goto point A kill mobs for 8 hours, repeat for 180 days.
* twinking - Nope. Not in Vanguard. Your sir are out of your element, so I will direct you to this post made by brad. Aradune Mithara: There will be twinks.First, there is good twinking (when you twink yourself, which encourages replayability) and then there is bad twinking, when you just hand items to random people that are higher level than they are, giving them an advantage in-game and essentially robbing them of the sense of satisfaction of earning the item themselves. The latter also accelerates MUDflation. For good twinking, we have the Veteran System, where, say, you have a level 30 character and you make a new second character and equip him with some items from your level 30 character. Because we know you have a level 30 character, we will reward you for creating an alt and experiencing other aspects of Vanguard (different areas, different classes, different races, etc.). How will we reward you? In Vanguard, items are scaled such that if a lower level character gets a high level item, while it is slightly better than an item around his level, its not as powerful as if it were wielded by a character closer to the level of the item. With the Veteran system, the item scaling isnt as severe. While your twinked alt wont be godlike, he will be a bit more powerful, noticeably so, and thus you are rewarded and encouraged to play through the game with multiple characters and also play the game longer.
* Best items Raiding - This is just Trolling. Not even close to true. /yawn Here is another reply from Brad Q Will the best loot come only from raids?
Aradune Mithara: Many of them will, but many will also be available to groups. Often the very best items will require a long time commitment
* harsh death penalty - WOOT!!! But seriously, it's really not harsh... I personaly might agree with you here, but the majority wont. Either way its nothing to "WooT" about.
* harsh grindish death penalty - No even close. Gotta love commenting on something that's not even true. Facts? O you have none so i guess ill take your word on it..
* long camps, 72 hour ragefire anyone? - If you mean Spawn Camping, Vanguard has several systems to stop it. Not talking about Mx13 and his noobie group camping the same gnolls for 12 hours. Im citing rare spawns for epics etc, taking upwards for 24-75 hours to (re)spawn.
* casuals, 2nd rate players - LOL... wow, now your just making stuff up. Really? Im glad you cleared that up. Lets take a look on Brads opinion on it. Aradune Mithara: The most powerful items will likely require contiguous time commitments involving a lot of people.
* soloers, worst loot in the game - LOL... Again, making up things that aren't even close. Ill let Brad take this one for me. Aradune Mithara: Some of the best items will come from conventional raiding (large groups of people participating in long contiguous adventures). Some will come from long adventures consisting of less people and more importantly, while a lot of time will have to be invested, the content will be such that all of that time doesn't have to be contiguous.
* kill stealing - There is no kill stealing in Vanguard, they have a system to stop it. NOT even a grey area where a person camping rare_gnoll for 6 hours cant have it instantly taken on its spawn by a passing threw mage? Then pass it off as legit since he had first strike? So happy you could help clear up this up with your Insightfull examples.
* training - OH NOES!!! IT'S NOT INSTANT!!! Sorry, but I like having to do quests for a MAster to unlock an ability... it's FUN... Wow this one went righttt over your head. In any case maybe someone else can take this one from jr Einstein.
I must admit I forgot what 'training' was. That is an old EQ1 thing whereas someone coul;d pick a fight with some mobs and drag them to you. In WoW this could be done too. It was a popular tactic to pick a fight with a boss and 'train' them to a lowbie town. Was great fun watching those old movies whereas this elite end game boss would destroy every lowbie in sight. In WoW this wasnt a big deal cause no harsh death penalty but in any game that has DEBT Training becomes a problem. EQ2 fixed that by locking encounters I believe. I think they also fixed kill stealing too. I canceled EQ2 after a few months only made it to 20 on two toons so my knowledge on EQ2 isn't the best
This poster points some other things tho that concerns me greatly. So, back to the original topic, I think its those issues listed above that will detract the faithful WoW crowd. However I dont know the future so I can only wait and see how Sigil handles this. I wish them the best though cause I'd like to see some new MMOs hit the market
Originally posted by FreddyNoNose Anyone who is playing wow, but hasn't played eq1, should consider buying a copy of eq1. This way you can get some time into the old vision and ways of playing to see if it is really your cup of tea.
While it would give them a sample of the vision, I cant with good Conscious condone handing over money to $OE. IF your playing WoW and enjoy raiding 5-7 nights a week and dont mind long punishing grinds lined up like Dominoes then you might enjoy the vision and Bradguard.
Originally posted by Sineath Also, someone posted on this thread about looking forward to next month. Far as I know, Vanguard isn't going to be released in January. I do think it will be released by the end of March. And, its possible that it doesn't get released until the end of June.
Well, I received news today that didn't really shock me. It seems to have been pushed back by another month, so I'm expecting MAY to be the correct release date. My source could be be dead wrong, however, I doubt it.
And for all those bashing VSoH, comparing it to WoW, and the like... please stop misinforming the public. The NDA will be lifted in another few months and you'll get the real low down. For now, you simply have NO CLUE what you're going on about. Please, the only things that hurt MMORPGs are BAD MMORPGs and MISINFORMATION.
Their pushing it back to dumb it down, and make it more like WoW. They're also scared of the BC release, and want to wait till at least a few months after warcraft..
I guess its hard to live in the shadow of a gaming giant like blizzard.
Honestly Shazzel, WoW is the exception to the rule. Even the "general public" deserve to have a game they can go play online, and they do with WoW. It was designed for that market. Not everyone wants to make games for that market; even if Vanguard was heading in that direction, it has been proven time and time again that, it only takes 50K active accounts to remain profitable.
I happy for successful MMO games. I unhappy about unsuccessful games, because that only damages the market potential for healthy MMO games.
Do you seriously believe that Blizzard will not come to hard times eventualy? All things fluctuate over time. That's one of the first economic principles.
Comments
This thread feels like a pre-EQ2 post. Back when everyone was hyping the EQ2 VS WoW releases...(good thing that fight was over in the first round)
Anyway as a former EQ1 and WoW player let me step in and give you an update on the "Vision" for those of you still in diapers in 99.
The Vision episode 1: The Community Menace
Everquest, Back in 99 this game was rich and groundbreaking for those lucky enough to play it...or was it? It sure seemed that way at the time but as levels progressed I began to "feel" the vision if not understand it or even have a name for its evil.
By 50 I knew it well...It had sorted me into my place along with the rest of server. At the top were a couple guilds, fanatics, of a sort.. those who grinded out the levels fast, formed quick social networks, gained a monopoly on the early boss's. Thanks to very limited endgame respawns those two guilds controlled every advantage.
Next came everyone else, the other 95% of the server in "The Vision". Here you find casuals, groupers, the guildless, soloers, even power gamers that for whatever reason lack the social skills to join one of those top2 guilds.
Most recently this entire scene was replayed out on the "classic" servers. See FoH,RoI and IV.
The Vision episode 2: Attack of the Clone
Vanguard, Not sure what people think their geting here but my moneys on a EQ1 rehash and everything negative the vision braught with it.
* long travel times - check
* forced grouping - check
* Limited endgame availibility to everyone - check
* long xp grind - check
* bottlenecking progress - check
* twinking - check
* Crafting grind - check
* Best items Raiding - check
* harsh death penalty - check
* limited soloing - check
* harsh grindish death penalty - check
* multi boxers prosper - check
* long camps, 72 hour ragefire anyone? - check
* casuals, 2nd rate players - check
* soloers, worst loot in the game - check
* kill stealing - check
* training - check
* Warp Cheaters? we'll ok maybe they wont have this one...maybe....
The only reason that is stopping me from playing Vanguard is that SOE is behind it.
Veteran SWG player.
Realy?I think VG is like EQ much more than WOW.The system of WOW is based by EQ.And the workgroup of VG is EQ.
I am so expected about VG.Cause I love EQ~~~~~~~~~~~~No reason~~^_^
Hehe, I find your post funny and would mostly agree with you, if we consider that they stick with what they said and doesn't try to improve. Which is something nobody can claim, not me, not you and not FoH (althought they would love to).
Sigil won't create a casual/core-friendly game right away, thinks more in terms of baby steps. You won't move from a raid-centric game to a casual/core-friendly game in a blink, but progressively. Raid-free servers are the first step toward this, and nobody but Sigil can decide weither they make it or not. Despite everything I said, I still think they can make it, call it blind faith...
I also kinda enjoy reading Celestian, mostly agree with him.
Someone said earlier that the Vision left the power gamers that lack the social skill to end-up in 1 of the 2 major guilds. In my case, I can't speak for anyone else, I, as a power-gamer, was left beside because of my empathy and overall kind attitude, which doesn't bode well at all with these harsh guilds. No matter how much you want to make fun of me, nobody would seriously maintain that I lack these so-called social skills. I don't say that every player with empathy or kind attitude will turn away from these guilds, I just said that it is my empathy and kind attitude that turn me away from these guilds, despite the fact that I am, a power gamer.
- "If I understand you well, you are telling me until next time. " - Ren
I'll start my own SWG... with Black Jack... and Hookers!!!
In fact, forget the SWG!!!!
eqnext.wikia.com
Starwars Galaxies, An Empier Diveded, That's what it says on my box anyway.
your point is well made, however, I believe that people who truly
enjoyed WoW yet seek a bit more deepness and diversity will find a
great home in Vanguard. Don't listen to the haters, if you don't want
to raid you will NOT be gimped in Vanguard. Also, soloing is a very
viable option. Just for certain quests you might have to grind up a few
levels so you can solo the tough spots. And did I mention NO INSTANCES?
No ppl who likes wow, stays in wow, cause they probably dosent know that other mmorpgs exists out there.
Starwars Galaxies, An Empier Diveded, That's what it says on my box anyway.
Spoken like a true fanatic. Debt != fun. Debt discouraged teaming so much in EQ2 it was unbelievable (last I heard they had to fix the debt system). MMOs that have debt its not uncommon to see teams quickly fall apart as soon as someone dies. In good well designed MMORPGs this is not a problem. In poorly designed rpgs where grind is the goal to keep players paying then that sucks.
Sure, you can say if they offer the content then thats cool. But who wants to just keep fighting the same old mobs over and over til they reach cap. Mobs that doesnt care bout dying- mobs that will respawn a few mins later. Sure a good combat system can mask the boredom but by the time you reach cap even that wont make it much fun
Longer travel times is can be really bad too. If you are trying to hurry and meet up with your group that can really suck. They better have some sort of teleportation for grouping. City of Heroes and WoW nailed this one well. In WoW you can teleport someone via spells. CoX had the best solution- anyone could pickup Recall Friend.
Please at least play the game first before you jump off a cliff with blind fanaticism. Vanguard looks interesting but it doesnt look very original to me like WAR and Age of Conan will be. Another bad thing is that it will have raids . Lastly, the omission of pvp features worry me. I have yet to see a film with any pvp in it.
Slow leveling is just plain tedious. And the lack of instances will make this even more tedious. This means that people will camp spawns and kill steal. I'm no fan of instances but I do like to have a little instancing. Trust me, the lack of instances is gonna hurt you at some point. It will mean more grind for you and more $$$ for Sigil / SOE.
edit- I cant help but think this title will be rushed and pvp will take a back seat. Being able to level via PvP would be good and making it so players can earn top end loot via PvP would also be good. Cause many of us know how crappy raiding can be. Raiding hoping for that rare 5% drop can suck. Being steamrolled by some nerd that has no life, no job all because he's got the best gear and uses no skill isn't all that fun. Sure you could say its fair if he's played longer in a twisted sort of way. But what if I've played just as long as that nerd however lady luck wasnt on my side (gear never dropped) + I never built up enough DKP for the good drops. That sucks and it isnt fair. At least Age Of Conan offers good rewards via PvP. That got my attention more than anything. Vanguard never struck me as a revolutionary title.
My thoughts? Vanguard looks like it might be fun and popular for a bit but its not the sort of game WoW players will embrace. However, it still looks like a decent title and I hope you guys have fun. I might even try it if it beats WAR / AoE to the market
Spoken like a true fanatic. Debt != fun. Debt discouraged teaming so much in EQ2 it was unbelievable (last I heard they had to fix the debt system). MMOs that have debt its not uncommon to see teams quickly fall apart as soon as someone dies. In good well designed MMORPGs this is not a problem. In poorly designed rpgs this is a huge problem.
Please at least play the game first before you jump off a cliff with blind fanaticism. Vanguard looks interesting but it doesnt look very original to me like WAR and Age of Conan will be. Another bad thing is that it will have raids . Lastly, the omission of pvp features worry me. I have yet to see a film with any pvp in it.
If you read his post you'd see him say in the first sentence "we all have different tastes" and then proceed to use "me/I personally" a number of times. He thinks he's going to like the game for what it is, and doesn't care to see the constant bitching that goes on with any game because it wasn't designed for them. Yeah, it happens no matter what, and sometimes it has actual meaning, but I understand his point.
So maybe you should take your own advice, and before you jump off a cliff and call him a fanatic at least try to understand that he's talking about his opinion.
I didn't bother reading the majority of these posts, so if this is a repeated question, please forgive me.
If I am not mistaken, is Vanguard not completely raid based in the endgame? Also, whats the story with PvP?
Where is this depth I keep hearing about???? Will someone please explain to me this depth Vanguard has?? It sounds nice and all but I really doubt the game has 'depth'. To get the best items you can raid or craft am I right? How exactly will crafting be fun? Press a button when you have collected x amount of y and wait for your little toon to finish 'making' whatever he is trying to make. WOO! I hope there is a trial, so I can see the depth this game has because I really can't see it at all from what I have read. WoW has about as much depth as vanguard. I am just ranting but seriously this game will blow. Grind ftw!
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Lend a hand and break the chains of regularity you lean so closely upon
http://wiki.silkyvenom.com/index.php/Main_Page there you go!
* long travel times - Not true, unless you choose to just go somewhere far away.
LOL ok so ... I wont have to travel far unless I want to go somewhere.. ya got me.
* forced grouping - Not true. One Beta Tester Journel was done by a guy who said he soloed almost everything to earn his levels.
People could solo in EQ1 as well, it simply took x2-x4 times longer and offered far less rewards.
* Limited endgame availibility to everyone - Wow, you counldn't be further off. There already so much endgame content in the game you probably will never come close to doing 1/3 of it.
See *bottlenecking* People only care about the "Best" items which is where limited availibility comes into play with regards to the "vision".
* long xp grind - If you mean a while to level, GOOD.
I said GRIND.. Goto point A kill mobs for 8 hours, repeat for 180 days.
* bottlenecking progress - Not sure what this means.
IF you dont know what bottlenecking is you obviously have not played Early EQ1 (Brads game). As such your commenting here is questionable.
* twinking - Nope. Not in Vanguard.
Your sir are out of your element, so I will direct you to this post made by brad.
Aradune Mithara: There will be twinks. First, there is good twinking (when you twink yourself, which encourages replayability) and then there is bad twinking, when you just hand items to random people that are higher level than they are, giving them an advantage in-game and essentially robbing them of the sense of satisfaction of earning the item themselves. The latter also accelerates MUDflation.
For good twinking, we have the Veteran System, where, say, you have a level 30 character and you make a new second character and equip him with some items from your level 30 character. Because we know you have a level 30 character, we will reward you for creating an alt and experiencing other aspects of Vanguard (different areas, different classes, different races, etc.). How will we reward you? In Vanguard, items are scaled such that if a lower level character gets a high level item, while it is slightly better than an item around his level, its not as powerful as if it were wielded by a character closer to the level of the item. With the Veteran system, the item scaling isnt as severe. While your twinked alt wont be godlike, he will be a bit more powerful, noticeably so, and thus you are rewarded and encouraged to play through the game with multiple characters and also play the game longer.
* Crafting grind - LOL... er uh... no.
LOL ... er uh I dunno what to say so ill say "uh er um daaah"
* Best items Raiding - This is just Trolling. Not even close to true.
/yawn Here is another reply from Brad
Q Will the best loot come only from raids?
Aradune Mithara: Many of them will, but many will also be available to groups. Often the very best items will require a long time commitment
* harsh death penalty - WOOT!!! But seriously, it's really not harsh...
I personaly might agree with you here, but the majority wont. Either way its nothing to "WooT" about.
* limited soloing - Read above, lol....
What would i read...? Most of your comments have been off base and irrelevant, clearly showing a lack of education on Verant and Sigil.
* harsh grindish death penalty - No even close. Gotta love commenting on something that's not even true.
Facts? O you have none so i guess ill take your word on it..
* multi boxers prosper - ??? If you mean those that use 2 Comps to Camp, then laugh at them.... they're dead...
Obviously you have had extensive experiance with 5-6 boxers. I mean these guys are all complete "noobs" and would never gain an unfair advantage with their hardware and use of 3rd party programs.
* long camps, 72 hour ragefire anyone? - If you mean Spawn Camping, Vanguard has several systems to stop it.
Not talking about Mx13 and his noobie group camping the same gnolls for 12 hours. Im citing rare spawns for epics etc, taking upwards for 24-75 hours to (re)spawn.
* casuals, 2nd rate players - LOL... wow, now your just making stuff up.
Really? Im glad you cleared that up. Lets take a look on Brads opinion on it.
Aradune Mithara: The most powerful items will likely require contiguous time commitments involving a lot of people.
* soloers, worst loot in the game - LOL... Again, making up things that aren't even close.
Ill let Brad take this one for me.
Aradune Mithara: Some of the best items will come from conventional raiding (large groups of people participating in long contiguous adventures). Some will come from long adventures consisting of less people and more importantly, while a lot of time will have to be invested, the content will be such that all of that time doesn't have to be contiguous.
* kill stealing - There is no kill stealing in Vanguard, they have a system to stop it.
NOT even a grey area where a person camping rare_gnoll for 6 hours cant have it instantly taken on its spawn by a passing threw mage? Then pass it off as legit since he had first strike?
So happy you could help clear up this up with your Insightfull examples.
* training - OH NOES!!! IT'S NOT INSTANT!!! Sorry, but I like having to do quests for a MAster to unlock an ability... it's FUN...
Wow this one went righttt over your head. In any case maybe someone else can take this one from jr Einstein.
I will think what I want, that is the point of discussions. I have seen the player housing video clip before and it all looks dandy and whatnot but I still don't see how that creates depth, it just creates another set of items to collect and/or craft (things that go in your house). THE DEPTH IS KILLING ME! Oh yeah the FAQ, thats a decent sized FAQ and I have read it before, from my experiance you shouldn't believe everything a FAQ says. I will assume everything on the FAQ is true for the sake of this topic. Lines like this make me kinda sick "we're about freedom, doing what you want, but not about long hours, camping, and frustration. We offer so much more than the current games that are out there -- please read through this FAQ, our message boards, etc. and find out about the *real* Vanguard: Saga of Heroes -- thanks!" Omg are you saying there will be long hours watsoever? Reality check this is an MMO, long hours being the middle name of MMO. Even the way they indirectly answer there own FAQ questions makes me suspicious about the games true self. Alot of these features sound nice but in reality there is nothing extremely new or groundbreaking being made here, I still fail to see this amazing depth. Don't get me wrong I am not a Vanguard hater. I am just facing reality with these games. I will try them all and judge for myself.
example of indirectly answered question:
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Lend a hand and break the chains of regularity you lean so closely upon
Yes I must admit the player housing looks truly well done. I didn't expect them to go so far as to let players run a business from it. All these concepts existed in EQ2 as well I believe though (not being negative just stating the truth as I recall). I wonder how available player housing will be? For instance, will they make you pay high taxes? Will the houses be affordable to casual players? Just asking out of curiosity....
Looks like they are really making a strong focus on the social aspects of the game which is nice. I guess what I want is a hardcore pvp system however Vanguard still looks like a good MMO that I will for sure follow the development on.
Dear Synyster777,
If you want to be taken seriously you should try reading entire posts instead of the last page and/or one line. On a side note paragraphs, sentences and point of context are your friends.
Thank you,
-The Management
I must admit I forgot what 'training' was. That is an old EQ1 thing whereas someone coul;d pick a fight with some mobs and drag them to you. In WoW this could be done too. It was a popular tactic to pick a fight with a boss and 'train' them to a lowbie town. Was great fun watching those old movies whereas this elite end game boss would destroy every lowbie in sight. In WoW this wasnt a big deal cause no harsh death penalty but in any game that has DEBT Training becomes a problem. EQ2 fixed that by locking encounters I believe. I think they also fixed kill stealing too. I canceled EQ2 after a few months only made it to 20 on two toons so my knowledge on EQ2 isn't the best
This poster points some other things tho that concerns me greatly. So, back to the original topic, I think its those issues listed above that will detract the faithful WoW crowd. However I dont know the future so I can only wait and see how Sigil handles this. I wish them the best though cause I'd like to see some new MMOs hit the market
Well, I received news today that didn't really shock me. It seems to have been pushed back by another month, so I'm expecting MAY to be the correct release date. My source could be be dead wrong, however, I doubt it.
And for all those bashing VSoH, comparing it to WoW, and the like... please stop misinforming the public. The NDA will be lifted in another few months and you'll get the real low down. For now, you simply have NO CLUE what you're going on about. Please, the only things that hurt MMORPGs are BAD MMORPGs and MISINFORMATION.
Kaboom!
Their pushing it back to dumb it down, and make it more like WoW.
They're also scared of the BC release, and want to wait till at least a few months after warcraft..
I guess its hard to live in the shadow of a gaming giant like blizzard.
Honestly Shazzel, WoW is the exception to the rule. Even the "general public" deserve to have a game they can go play online, and they do with WoW. It was designed for that market. Not everyone wants to make games for that market; even if Vanguard was heading in that direction, it has been proven time and time again that, it only takes 50K active accounts to remain profitable.
I happy for successful MMO games. I unhappy about unsuccessful games, because that only damages the market potential for healthy MMO games.
Do you seriously believe that Blizzard will not come to hard times eventualy? All things fluctuate over time. That's one of the first economic principles.