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Perma-death
HolmstN
Member Posts: 12
I was reading the newest poll, and I saw that a lot of people weren't too liking of perma-death. Now, it's one thing that I think makes a game, and there's a lot of elements about it that would make a game ten times more fun and rewarding.
But, it got me wondering, why do people NOT like it? So, I came here, in an attempt to find my answers. So, I'm curious: Why do you or why don't you like permadeath? (I'm sorry if there is another thread about this, or if there is some sort of place to post comments about the poll, but I could not find one).
Comments
lose all your gametime
end of story
Hardcore permadeath is anathema to achieving. It is un-achieving.
MMO players tend to be achievers, at least partly. Why do you put that extra hour to get to level X? Eh, some part of you is achieving, weither you admit it or not.
I would love a softcore permadeath however, LIVES PER MONTH, that would be awesome. I mean, imagine, I play the game for 200 hours in 2 weeks and a few days, then SLAP, can't play for the month because you died too much! I would prolly be extremely angry atm, but it would be all good, as long as you are not a GM within hear-reach of me during a day or two. But deaths would be meaningfull and I would have a blast. Lives per month should be implemented in a way where only peoples with mucho time are affected. Have some debts system to keep casuals afraid of dying, it work amazingly well on casuals...and lives per month, on me, or any player with lot of time...it would work quite well, we would CARE about not dying. And it is unlikely to be affecting me too long, see, in the above example, where I play really poorly, I still have access to my toon more then half of the month and next month I would prolly last at least 3 weeks. Again, I don't want to be handling the PR with a player who is just unable to play, but eh, we don't build games for PR folks, we build them for players...and players of all type would love it and try better "non-zerging" ways after. Each race could have a different amount of lives, so a gnome might be nearly impossible to run out of lives...anyway...(can you see zerging guilds been full of gnomes? That alone would be awesome)
- "If I understand you well, you are telling me until next time. " - Ren
I play with permadeath in NWN, but not in a MMORPG? Why? I love the thrill of risking something, but there are too many possble griefers in any MMORPG - it only really works with likeminded people.
Enjoy the flame-war in forum after a major serverlag.
My priority in the game is to explore the world and check out the adventures.
I like to amount of fresh content to come at an exceptable pace. I do not want to spend 5 years grinding the first level so that I don't due in the second, only to spend 5 years re grinding the second level only to get to the third.
Or just heading straight to cow level via the shortest powerleveling route possible, and then just grinding cow level forever.
Once I have finished the game and explored all there is to explore, I like to play hardcore permadeath, it adds to the longevity.
Something to make you more aware of your environment, something to make the adrenaline pump.
Something that would make you think "if i won't be careful and think things over, i will have to face severe consequences.
Something like, say, a 30 minutes ghost mode(chained to corpse, which could be carried around by other players) and a choice between that and something else to avoid corpse camping (instant teleport to a safety zone with a huge exp penalty?).
Something like that, just with more thought put in it.
Softcore permadeath, when done correctly, is the best way to go in an MMORPG. Eve's system is pretty good.
MMORPG's w/ Max level characters: DAoC, SWG, & WoW
Currently Playing: WAR
Preferred Playstyle: Roleplay/adventurous, in a sandbox game.
Good point. The game would have to be a sandbox game, but there has to be some sort of progression or else it would be like a FPS for one and for two, it would only be like changing your name when you die. There should be a skill progression system to where you can't tell that you are getting better numerically, accept by noticing that you are getting better at killing certain creatures and can take on harder creatures with more ease. Using a sword will get you better at swords, using a fireball over and over again will get you better at fire magic and so on. You should be able to customize your magic spells and be able to create your own. You would never know how good you are or how good another person is. This would encourage people to play the game like it is a virtual world instead of trying to beat the game. Of course, you would need the ability to own land and defend and conquer others. The economy would be player driven and everything would be craftable.
I'm not going to lay out a whole game plan, but I was just giving some ideas as to how it could be done. The sad part is that this would be a niche game and probably no more than a 100k if that would play it. It would also take a geat deal of maturity to be able to handle losing your character without quitting the game out of fustration. A level of maturity I haven't seen in the ordinary MMO gamer.
MMORPG's w/ Max level characters: DAoC, SWG, & WoW
Currently Playing: WAR
Preferred Playstyle: Roleplay/adventurous, in a sandbox game.
"I think permadeath is the worst feature in real life, so I can't see why we need to have it in MMORPGs."
BTW - Claus is the lead dev for Darkfall.
The problem of permanent death lies in the problem with MMO's today.
They force you to spend hours upon hours getting gear/levels.
People don't want to lose something that takes them a long time to get back.
I always liked Asheron's call for the way you got gear in it. It was very easy to find a GOOD item. But very hard to find an EXCELLENT item. But the Good or Excellent wasn't that big of a difference.
All Rogelike games are permadeath. Some of the most interesting open ended indie games like Flatspace, Mount & Blade, and FastCrawl all include permadeath as a feature. There have also been a host of MUDs, like Armegeddon MUD, and DartMUD have been permadeath and very popular.
So I'm pretty sure that permadeath can, and does, work in a game. There are all kinds of arguments in support of permadeath: it's more realistic, effectively recycles content thus adding replay value, adds meaning to player level since only the best players will reach the highest levels of play, etc.
The problem is that people that have never played a permadeath game automatically assume that it has a completely negative impact on play. They've never tried it, they're unwilling to try it, and then turn around and bitch about how boring and predictable their current games are. In an ocean of unworkable ideas, permadeath is an idea that has worked but no one wants THAT MUCH of an innovation. Kinda ironic if you ask me.
w00t
Both softcore permadeath are quite different however.
See, I have no problem with a "access denied for X days" approach, but a "Wait 10 minutes" is extremely problematic to me.
See, I am a player, I am PLAYING. Denying me my playing is fine, but making me wait, it is stopping me from playing and making me wait...not cool at all.
We both agree that we want a harsher death penatly, yet not permadeath per say. We both would love softcore permadeath, but personnally I don't want to wait; and I don't want it to affect casuals...I just want it to DENY me what I crave for the most, which is playing. So playing remain always, as good. While waiting, well...it is really bad...denying me play, at least I will play something else (or another character); which is a LOT better than me waiting.
It would also be better if the system can warn, appropriatedly, everyone online that might want to know, that my character is currently out of lives. So peoples in my guild or that have me on their friend list, they should see something beside my name as off: Out of lives for the month. If we use global handles, then my global handle should change color if I have 1 or more character that exhaust all their lives for this month. This is a small detail, but it is important for online communities.
PS: Not to mention that now, you can have a quest to restore some of your friend out of lives a life or something among these lines, as long as the player is not waiting behind, this must be considered carefully, we don't want a player waiting...so these quests should not be something a player will wait on...But that way, casuals peoples may go like...oh, my friend is out of lives, I might as well hunt in dungeon XYZ or grant him his lives 1 day faster...or something among these lines...yeah 1 day shorter is better than 1 life back, peoples won't be waiting that way...and now peoples will care about having friends, casuals or hardcores, to help them respawn quicker. But I like the idea of casuals only doing these quests, that way hardcore players that are nice with casuals see a reward from this, not something to expect, but well...and nasty hardcores who don't care, they are ignored by casuals...granting power to casuals in an indirect way...something I am sure they would love to.
- "If I understand you well, you are telling me until next time. " - Ren
Hello HolmstN, and welcome to MMORPG.com !
There IS a market for permadeath. Right now only ONE mmorpg has 100% true blue permadeath. The one and only Strive For Power.
SfP has been out now for roughly 3-4 years, which shows a successful perma-death mmorpg can and does work. (To the DEVs at this site... if Race War Kingdoms can be listed in areas of mmorpg.com, then SfP fits mmorpg.com's definition for a mmorpg
)
SfP also has many other features not found in any other mmorpg.
The most famous online game with permadeath is Diablo 2, in hardcore mode. The fact that it is one of the most successfull online games, and the fact armies of players have successfully made it to highest level on the permadeath servers, proves further that permadeath IS doable, and has been done successfully, in an online RPG.
IF....IF... IF... only all current mmorpgs would make a permadeath server (or servers) it would drastically increase account numbers, and breath fresh new life into all the current mmorpgs. What is strange is Blizzard made Diablo 2, and succeeded with their D2 permadeath servers. Yet WoW (made by Blizzard) refuses to make a permadeath server (or servers).
The fact that one of the world's most successful online games has permadeath destroys all arguments against having permadeath in the rest of the current mmorpgs. A mmorpg does not have to be 100% permadeath. Just have some permadeath servers, and some non-permadeath servers.
I think permadeath can work if implemented correctly. How about a rebirth system where when you die you can be reborn into a child character that bares certain parental traits (i.e. if you strong with magic your child will have higher magical attributes then most new characters and also raise his magical attributes faster then normal). Also each character could have "life insurance" so when you die your child can be given compensation based on level and items lost as well as all the items you weren't holding on your character at the time of death. For a safety net you can have a time limit to be revived, this will make partying all the more important. On top of that you can make it easy on new players by having towns and outposts have resurrection shrines so if you die in the range of one you are brought back to life in town with minor penalties.
Maybe it could be like this: When you die you lose all of your equipment, but retain your levels. How/Why?
- Raid mobs should still be there, that way people can get equipment above and beyond the norm, but this should stilll be destroyable (MAYBE lootable) apon death.
- So if you do die, you should have a guild around with crafters to give you the equipement you need to get back on your feet.
- If you dont have a guild and are a soloer, you should make sure you have gold in the bank incase you die.
Something like this. This way someone can retain their levels, part of their achievments, but still have penalties. If this is too light you can have downleveling.
Dunno, that's just my opinion.
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I am definitely an achiever type primarily and I would embrace a game with a permadeath ruleset. Permadeath is the single most challenging obstacle for any MMOG, and therefore excelling where others fail would be the ultimate achievement.
Trials of Ascension may be the permadeath option if it ever releases.
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Chairman & CEO, Sigil Games Online, Inc.
Executive Producer, Vanguard: Saga of Heroes
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I find it amazing that by 2020 first world countries will be competing to get immigrants.
ToA is the game that got me to post this thread
Anyhow, now to my points: A lot of people are saying they dislike it because they lose your character. However, I'm going to use Trials of Ascension as an example here. In it, you would create your character. The character then has 100 lives (or some number, but 100 is what we've been told is likely) to live their life. During this time, they participate in any number of things. It's, as many people have said they would want for perma-death, an open-ended, sandbox MMO.
Now, this system seems very logical to me, and I believe would work very well. However, the one thing that makes it really worth it is the fact that it DOES have progression, in ALL sorts of things. There are two things, though, that make this progression something different. Firstly, there are many different types of progression, but there is not a single cap on them. Your skills can rise indefinitely, and never reach their peak (albeit it'll be very hard to get them stronger once you're powerful). They are also affected by other skills that are similar to them, "synergies." This allows for a system of reward, feeling that each thing you do has significance. Now, this is a minor point compared to the other: There are NO levels!
Now, why, you ask, is this a good thing? Simply put, it means that no other person is absolutely SET to be stronger than the other (not to mention the fact that everything relies on player skill as much as it does character skill, thus even a newbie could defeat a veteran if they have super-skills). In doing this, you're essentially saying that, while your character IS unique, when it dies, you don't suddenly lose a year of playing that you can't make up. Sure, you lost some skills, but those skills aren't absolutely neccessary to create a similar character. That is the beauty of ToA, and that is the true reason why I think perma-death would work in a game like Trials of Ascension.