If you are happy setting your own goals in a game instead of having a set path with quests to direct you every step of the way, there's a good chance you'll enjoy this game. It's free to try though, so why not have a look?
Aye, if you lack imagination, have no sense of discovery and need someone to tell you what to do, Ryzom can seem somewhat dull. I occasionally have uninspired days when I'm better off playing a FPS or a single player, quest driven RPG. I'm yet to see a mmorpg I'd rather play though.
Originally posted by EggFtegg Aye, if you lack imagination, have no sense of discovery and need someone to tell you what to do, Ryzom can seem somewhat dull. I occasionally have uninspired days when I'm better off playing a FPS or a single player, quest driven RPG. I'm yet to see a mmorpg I'd rather play though.
Aye, if you lack friends in real life so much that you have to imagine a different world to escape to. I Occasionally have uninspired days when I actually believe i Live inside a computer game. I often find myself waking waiting to enter this virtual world. If this sounds like you then ryzom is a must for you.
P.S anyone can do this. Its just a biased unevidenced opinion and shouldn't even be bothered posting. If ryzpm is so good then explain why. Maybe this is why your game is dead/.
Beta Tested: Lineage 2, Ryzom, City of Heroes, RYL, EverQuest 2 World Of Warcraft European Truly Loved: World of Warcraft
Aye, if you lack friends in real life so much that you have to imagine a different world to escape to. I Occasionally have uninspired days when I actually believe i Live inside a computer game. I often find myself waking waiting to enter this virtual world. If this sounds like you then ryzom is a must for you.
Sounds like you shouldn't play ANY fantasy game at all if that's your attitude. Or consume any fantasy/SF media at all.
Aye, if you lack friends in real life so much that you have to imagine a different world to escape to. I Occasionally have uninspired days when I actually believe i Live inside a computer game. I often find myself waking waiting to enter this virtual world. If this sounds like you then ryzom is a must for you.
Not only is this "just a biased unevidenced opinion", it is an ignorant, personal attack on virtually every registered member of this site. Why not change "Ryzom" to "MMORPGs" and put your post after every post on every forum of this site?
Originally posted by Neas
P.S anyone can do this. Its just a biased unevidenced opinion and shouldn't even be bothered posting.
Isn't that just a biased unevidenced opinion?
When responding to a question about if something is "good", the whole concept can only be subjective and therefore a matter of opinion. The way I saw best to answer such a question (which was not asking for a long description of the game) was to descibe the sort of people who might enjoy Ryzom, as clearly some do and some don't.
Why you saw that as being a "biased" opinion, makes little sense to me, when you ignored comments such as "This game sucks..." and "If you wanna get really bored with a game that has hardly any content" which hardly describe Ryzom's gaming experience or give any indication of what they disliked about the game. Is an opinion only "biased" when you disagree with it?
Unfortunately, the post I wrote a few days ago which went into some depth about some of the aspects of Ryzom, vanished when this site lost a few days of database changes, however, I would be glad to expand on the points I made earlier in this thread...
Ryzom has a strong back story and in-depth lore and players with a good imagination will find it easier to immerse themselves in the story and are the ones more likely to enjoy the game and stick around.
Atys is a large, beautiful and dangerous world. There are plenty of places to explore and things to learn about the world. Even after well over a year of play, one can still be discovering new things. There are lots of interesting creatures each with different behaviour and migration patterns meaning that by spending time learning about them, a player can know the best methods for fighting different beasts or the ideal seasons to travel in certain regions. If you want to craft the best items, you will need to discover the ideal recipes and also learn where to find the best materials, whether they are made from the body parts of certain creatures or the place, weather and season they can be dug up. A player who has a sense of discovery may well love all of these aspects.
Other than for the tutorial, Ryzom is not a quest driven game where you follow a story that is laid out for you. There are hundreds of (mostly pretty basic) missions, but you can choose which you want to do and which NPCs to do them for. You choose your own path and set your own goals. Some call this freedom, some call it lack of content, but if you expect a game to give you direction and tell you what to do, there's a good chance you will find Ryzom dull.
These are of course still my own "biased unevidenced opinions", but I hope they might give people looking for such a game an idea of if it might be something they want to have a look at.
Originally posted by Neas
Maybe this is why your game is dead/.
And talking about "biased unevidenced opinions"....
How childish. You people act like robotix is attacking your religion. He just stated his opinion of ryzom and your first reaction is to insult him? This whole thread is sad. I didn't care much for ryzom either. I must be an "uncreative pleb."
Originally posted by Archaos How childish. You people act like robotix is attacking your religion. He just stated his opinion of ryzom and your first reaction is to insult him? This whole thread is sad. I didn't care much for ryzom either. I must be an "uncreative pleb."
Quite possibly yes. Perhaps you'd be better off with static media?
Originally posted by GRIMACHU Originally posted by Archaos How childish. You people act like robotix is attacking your religion. He just stated his opinion of ryzom and your first reaction is to insult him? This whole thread is sad. I didn't care much for ryzom either. I must be an "uncreative pleb."
Quite possibly yes. Perhaps you'd be better off with static media? Delightful. You've zinged me. Congratulations. Instead of being pulled down to your level, I think I'm going to leave. Please enjoy the remainder of this thread in my absence.
Delightful. You've zinged me. Congratulations. Instead of being pulled down to your level, I think I'm going to leave. Please enjoy the remainder of this thread in my absence.
You left yourself open to it.
Look.
MMORPGs stem from RPG roots, they've forgotten a lot of what made/makes tabletop RPGs great and substituted things contrary to the model that makes them a less satisfying experience but one of the things that crosses the boundary is the satisfaction of making your own way in whatever world has been created, putting your own spin on it. That's more important than what power you get at level 62 or what the optimum warrior 'build' is. If you don't get that, you've missed the point of the 'RPG' bit. You get out what you put in, if you'd rather be spoonfed there's plenty of options but don't come in slagging or you'll get slapped.
Originally posted by Archaos How childish. You people act like robotix is attacking your religion. He just stated his opinion of ryzom and your first reaction is to insult him? This whole thread is sad. I didn't care much for ryzom either. I must be an "uncreative pleb."
If Robotix had just stated his opinion on the game, I think the reaction would have been quite different. What was actually implied was that those who enjoy Ryzom, enjoy being bored, at least that's how I perceived it. To say "personally, I found the game boring" would have been vastly different and less insulting to the current player base and highly unlikely to provoke that kind of reaction.
Then you start your post with insults and are put out when they come back at you?
It is okay, Arch is simply a child in need of attention, pay him no more heed than you would the man behind the curtain....
98% of the teenage population does or has accepted Marijauna propoganda. If you are one of the 2% that thinks for yourselves and has read any of the many scientific studies that prove cannabis is harmless then please paste this in your signiture.
Originally posted by GRIMACHU You left yourself open to it.
Look.
MMORPGs stem from RPG roots, they've forgotten a lot of what made/makes tabletop RPGs great and substituted things contrary to the model that makes them a less satisfying experience but one of the things that crosses the boundary is the satisfaction of making your own way in whatever world has been created, putting your own spin on it. That's more important than what power you get at level 62 or what the optimum warrior 'build' is. If you don't get that, you've missed the point of the 'RPG' bit. You get out what you put in, if you'd rather be spoonfed there's plenty of options but don't come in slagging or you'll get slapped.
Grim, I don't know why you seem to have a problem with anyone who says Ryzom is lacking content. It's true. It lacks what most games have, ie. "traditional content". I know there is a strong RP aspect in Ryzom, and that's good (I'm actually a RPer in MMOs), but stop comparing it to tabletop RPGs. They are completely different formats. I've played (and RPed in) lots of MMOs and lots of tabletop so I think I can tell the difference.
In Ryzom (or any MMO even) there's no GM to craft the world around your group of characters. (I know you'll say the Ring is like the GM, but it's barely even usable at this point so it doesn't count) There's usually little to no impact on the MMO gameworld, where in tabletop you can affect everything (with GM permission). In Ryzom there's nothing more than generic, repeatable missions, where in tabletop the GM can have any number of things happen, hooking you into scenarios, or even letting you go explore the ruins the local townsfolk spoke of.
MMOs are NOT like tabletop. They share minor similarities, that's it. And Ryzom is no different. Sure you can do whatever you want, but how is that like a tabletop RPG? When was the last time the characters went hunting for wolves/spiders/dragons/etc. so that they could make a piece of armour or craft a sword? Cause that's all I there seems to do in Ryzom. Different creatures, but the same thing nonetheless.
The only game out there that is even close to tabletop is NWN. And that requires a good DM (or multiple DMs, like in a PW) to make it work. Only then can they make the players feel like their characters are making a impact on the gameworld. Perhaps once the Ryzom Ring allows people to host scenarios without having to be online it'll be a closer approximation of tabletop. But then, it'll still be an /approximation/.
Tabletop is dynamic. MMOs are static. There's no way you can compare the two.
Grim, I don't know why you seem to have a problem with anyone who says Ryzom is lacking content. It's true.
Because it isn't true.
It lacks what most games have, ie. "traditional content". I know there is a strong RP aspect in Ryzom, and that's good (I'm actually a RPer in MMOs), but stop comparing it to tabletop RPGs. They are completely different formats. I've played (and RPed in) lots of MMOs and lots of tabletop so I think I can tell the difference. The difference is that MMOs make a huge number of mistakes, introduce PvP into a game type that doesn't really do it very well and haven't learned from 30 years of tabletop games. Yes. it does lack meaningless repeatable 'Quests' but this is a bonus, not something that takes away from the game. The game advances through live events, invasions and player interaction which is far more dynamic and interesting than any amount of what passes for content in standard MMOs. They did make the mistake of thinking PvP was 'infinite cheap content' though, same as pretty much every other MMO has.
n Ryzom (or any MMO even) there's no GM to craft the world around your group of characters. (I know you'll say the Ring is like the GM, but it's barely even usable at this point so it doesn't count) There's usually little to no impact on the MMO gameworld, where in tabletop you can affect everything (with GM permission). In Ryzom there's nothing more than generic, repeatable missions, where in tabletop the GM can have any number of things happen, hooking you into scenarios, or even letting you go explore the ruins the local townsfolk spoke of. The GM in this case is the devs and the 'GMs' and CSRs. There should be feedback back and forth and adjustment of the gameworld. That's why these are interactive media. Yes, the missions in Ryzom are repeatable but they're also more like day-to-day tasks than quests, so this isn't as jarring as, say, WoW's quests. You're looking in the wrong place. You SHOULD be looking at the guide events, the player events, the Ring scenarios and the encyclopaedia missions.
MMOs are NOT like tabletop. They share minor similarities, that's it. And Ryzom is no different. Sure you can do whatever you want, but how is that like a tabletop RPG? When was the last time the characters went hunting for wolves/spiders/dragons/etc. so that they could make a piece of armour or craft a sword? Cause that's all I there seems to do in Ryzom. Different creatures, but the same thing nonetheless. The one stems from the other, but there's been some translation errors which is why most MMOs are extremely unsatisfying and overrun with people who'd probably be better off playing counterstrike. Of the genuine MMOs Ryzom comes the closest to providing RPG satisfaction.
Tabletop is dynamic. MMOs are static. There's no way you can compare the two. As I said, Ryzom's plot advances through live events and special events, not empty meaningless quests. It's here you can make an impact and a name for yourself and those events ARE dynamic.
Originally posted by GRIMACHU The difference is that MMOs make a huge number of mistakes, introduce PvP into a game type that doesn't really do it very well and haven't learned from 30 years of tabletop games. Yes. it does lack meaningless repeatable 'Quests' but this is a bonus, not something that takes away from the game. The game advances through live events, invasions and player interaction which is far more dynamic and interesting than any amount of what passes for content in standard MMOs. They did make the mistake of thinking PvP was 'infinite cheap content' though, same as pretty much every other MMO has.
PvP is not necessarily a bad thing in MMOs. I agree most MMOs don't do it well, but it can still have a place in an MMO. The enemy players are the equivalent of GM controlled NPCs in tabletop. It doesn't really translate well, and most MMOs do it wrong, but it still can apply.
I know you really dislike PvP, but remember, that's your view. Everyone has their own opinion, and MMOs don't have to cater to just one type of player.
The GM in this case is the devs and the 'GMs' and CSRs. There should be feedback back and forth and adjustment of the gameworld. That's why these are interactive media. Yes, the missions in Ryzom are repeatable but they're also more like day-to-day tasks than quests, so this isn't as jarring as, say, WoW's quests. You're looking in the wrong place. You SHOULD be looking at the guide events, the player events, the Ring scenarios and the encyclopaedia missions.
I never got the chance to see any of the GM events, as they were always on Saturdays. Anyone who works Saturday, or is busy with RL in some way will miss out on the events in Ryzom. I'm sure that it is an interesting way to affect the world, but when it is only available to some players for a short period of time, it doesn't quite do it's job. EVE Online is much better in this respect IMO. The battles over systems in EVE can be anytime, and do affect the entire gameworld in a sense.
It's true, player events can be an exciting thing and allow the player to feel like they are affecting the gameworld, but they don't count towards an MMO having content. Plus, the whole experience can be cheapened when the mobs simply respawn (assuming the event was to kill/capture/whatever some creature/NPC. There are many more types of events, but that's the only one the game has any mechanics for. Otherwise people are just standing around typing. You might as well use MSN/ICQ/etc. for that)
As for encyclopedia missions, I never was able to find any, so I can't see how that is content, or how it allows the player to affect the gameworld.
The one stems from the other, but there's been some translation errors which is why most MMOs are extremely unsatisfying and overrun with people who'd probably be better off playing counterstrike. Of the genuine MMOs Ryzom comes the closest to providing RPG satisfaction.
Yes, MMOs have been designed from tabletop. Most MMOs are similar to tabletop in only a few ways: 1) fantasy gameworld, 2) levels and classes, and possibly 3) quests. They are like DnD (which BTW I hate. Go GURPS!), stripped down to just the combat mechanics. Ryzom is no different.
As for the Counterstrike comment, yes, there are quite a few undesirables in MMOs today. Mostly due to WoW. But you can't really blame them. MMOs are just the combat part of an RPG, and as these players simply want to run around killing stuff, it suits them fine. It's more the people like me who expect far more from an MMO who don't belong. What I expect from a genre with "RPG" in its name, is far more than MMOs currently present. I think MMOs whould be called "MMOGs", strip out the "RP". There's barely a sense of RP in them, aside from the classes and levels I mentioned before.
As I said, Ryzom's plot advances through live events and special events, not empty meaningless quests. It's here you can make an impact and a name for yourself and those events ARE dynamic.
I'm curious. Since Ryzom has been out for a few years now, the gameworld should be considerably altered from it's initial state. Have the mobs spawns been changed? Have resources disappeared/re-appeared in different areas? Have towns been built/destroyed/taken over? Have alliances of tribes been made to go to war with other factions? Have new ruins/dungeons/areas been found? I don't recall hearing of anything like this happening.
All I heard was an NPC won a vote and became a new race's leader. Wooooo ...
Again, keep the tabletop references for the table. MMOs are games. Nothing more. Treat them as such.
Originally posted by GRIMACHU Events that have changed the world
1. Various events revealing lore. 2. Tryton's departure for the Prime Roots. 3. Semi-factional fighting over Trytonist agents revealing info about Jena. 4. A vote to determine the direction of the Fyrosian senate. 5. A vote to determine the next Tryker leader and their stance. 6. Invasion events. 7. The opening of the passageway between Zorai and Fyros. 8. The Temple War.
Others that I've likely missed due to occasionally being busy.
The events are not always run on saturdays and sometimes there are lead-in smaller events run in the days and weeks leading up to the major event.
Let's see ....
1. Okay, this isn't bad, I'll give you that.
2. What exactly did this affect? Did certain NPCs disappear with this, possibly removing the ability to do something in-game (ie. quests, faction gain, buying items)?
3. Okay, this sounds like Lore again. Not bad.
4 & 5. This sounds about as fun as real voting. Again, did this affect anything? NPC prices, available missions, faction reputations, NPC/creature spawns, etc? If it didn't change anything, this is like voting in a new government in RL, only to have them do exactly the same thing as the last one.
6. Okay, now you're actually talking about something interesting. With noticable affects on the gameworld. A similar event happened in SWG way-back-when, when Imperial troops were spawned and attacked a known Rebel town. Everyone I talked to really enjoyed things like this.
7. Here you go, another event that /actually/ changed something. But what I'm wondering is: Is it always possible for the players to affect the outcome of this? ie. On one server the players manage to open the way, and on another they fail? Cause if it all ends up the same, that doesn't count as affecting the gameworld. There has to be more than one outcome for the players otherwise it's just masking the fact they are being "railroaded".
8. What exactly did this accomplish? Like I said before, did it affect the availability of factional items/missions/etc.?
You've stated a bunch of events, but unless they've changed the gameworld in some recognizable sense, it's not the same as tabletop. If nothing's changed a player who played at launch could come back now and not find anything different. Game mechanic changes and the addition of PvP doesn't count, as they were added by Nevrax, and weren't affected by players at all.
I'd really like to hear how these events shaped the world of Atys, in concrete terms. I'm more than willing to admit I'm wrong, if I am. But what you've said so far hasn't proved that at all. Dynamic content does not mean temporary static content, ie. content that lasts for a set period of time. Dynamic content is content that persists until some point where the actions (or inactions) of the players changes it. So far, I haven't seen any of this in MMOs.
7. The opening of the passageway between Zorai and Fyros.
8. The Temple War. Others that I've likely missed due to occasionally being busy. The events are not always run on saturdays and sometimes there are lead-in smaller events run in the days and weeks leading up to the major event.
Let's see ....
2. What exactly did this affect? Did certain NPCs disappear with this, possibly removing the ability to do something in-game (ie. quests, faction gain, buying items)?
Well, I regard these as negative effects to the game overall, but they are effects. It sucked credibility and direction away from the neutral 'faction' and placed a very important (almost another 'god') NPC in limbo. Since then the influence of the NPC guild of that individual has been noticably less though there may be some kind of payoff in the future, we don't know. Some of this is on trust as I've seen that future events often seem to be influenced by prior events.
I think it's important to note that far reaching effects on the gameworld aren't necessarily dependent upon a hard, in game effect (such as missing NPCs) in order to have a long running effect.
4 & 5. This sounds about as fun as real voting. Again, did this affect anything? NPC prices, available missions, faction reputations, NPC/creature spawns, etc? If it didn't change anything, this is like voting in a new government in RL, only to have them do exactly the same thing as the last one.
See above. Again it's hard to tell but a 'dove' was elected to the senate in Fyros and this has probably resulted in less incendiery rhetoric coming from the Fyros leaders as compared to if the other candidate (a hawk) had won.
Similarly the candidates in Tryker covered a spectrum and the winner seems to refect Tryker nationalism and independence that is/was reflected in the Tryker players. Given that some players do operate and RP according to what these leaders say and do, and that events may have been different according to which leaders got these positions, yes I'd say it had an effect.
7. Here you go, another event that /actually/ changed something. But what I'm wondering is: Is it always possible for the players to affect the outcome of this? ie. On one server the players manage to open the way, and on another they fail? Cause if it all ends up the same, that doesn't count as affecting the gameworld. There has to be more than one outcome for the players otherwise it's just masking the fact they are being "railroaded".
The servers have diverged in various ways, like the election results and like the temple war (see below). Every server managed to open the passageway though. The divergence in other events suggests that this could have taken a different route. Server divergence hasn't lived up to initial promise, but it is there.
8. What exactly did this accomplish? Like I said before, did it affect the availability of factional items/missions/etc.?
It affected whether a temple (and the lore available at it) were available in each land, along with temple guards and reward givers. Whether the temples will do anything else in the future remains to be seen.
I'd really like to hear how these events shaped the world of Atys, in concrete terms. I'm more than willing to admit I'm wrong, if I am. But what you've said so far hasn't proved that at all. Dynamic content does not mean temporary static content, ie. content that lasts for a set period of time. Dynamic content is content that persists until some point where the actions (or inactions) of the players changes it. So far, I haven't seen any of this in MMOs.
Originally posted by GRIMACHU I think it's important to note that far reaching effects on the gameworld aren't necessarily dependent upon a hard, in game effect (such as missing NPCs) in order to have a long running effect.
Okay, I think this is where we'll have to "agree to disagree". If there is no tangible effect on the gameworld, IMO, you can't say an event shaped the world. As you said, it can affect the players' RP perspectives, but that's completely their choice. They could just as easily choose to continue RPing as they were before. And for anyone who chooses not to RP, there is zero effect.
The servers have diverged in various ways, like the election results and like the temple war (see below). Every server managed to open the passageway though. The divergence in other events suggests that this could have taken a different route. Server divergence hasn't lived up to initial promise, but it is there.
Okay, there does seem to be a slight divergence, so the players aren't necessarily being railroaded. But without some kind of noticable effect, the divergence becomes meaningless.
Example: Server A voted Bob in. Server B voted for Dave. If nothing is affected, who the @&;$%# cares?
It affected whether a temple (and the lore available at it) were available in each land, along with temple guards and reward givers. Whether the temples will do anything else in the future remains to be seen.
Here you go, tangible effects. More of this would be nice.
You have shown that some of the events can shape the game, but it seems that it's mostly limited to how the players decide to act on the changes. Now, for you, it seems that this is enough to say the events shape the world. I, on the other hand, can't say this is true at all. Some events have, but most of those you mentioned have done nothing to make a visible impact on the game.
And lastly,
Well, I regard these as negative effects to the game overall, but they are effects.
It appears that you don't wish for the effects of events to alter anyone's game experience. You can't have dynamic content if everything stays the same. Some things have to be given, some taken away. Otherwise it's not "dynamic", it's static. And that was my whole point in the first place. Tabletop = Dynamic. MMOs = static. They are inherently not the same.
I'm sure we could go on for ages on this. But I'm going to stop here. Feel free to respond though.
Look. MMORPGs stem from RPG roots, they've forgotten a lot of what made/makes tabletop RPGs great and substituted things contrary to the model that makes them a less satisfying experience but one of the things that crosses the boundary is the satisfaction of making your own way in whatever world has been created, putting your own spin on it. That's more important than what power you get at level 62 or what the optimum warrior 'build' is. If you don't get that, you've missed the point of the 'RPG' bit. You get out what you put in, if you'd rather be spoonfed there's plenty of options but don't come in slagging or you'll get slapped.
Grim, I don't know why you seem to have a problem with anyone who says Ryzom is lacking content. It's true. It lacks what most games have, ie. "traditional content". I know there is a strong RP aspect in Ryzom, and that's good (I'm actually a RPer in MMOs), but stop comparing it to tabletop RPGs. They are completely different formats. I've played (and RPed in) lots of MMOs and lots of tabletop so I think I can tell the difference.
In Ryzom (or any MMO even) there's no GM to craft the world around your group of characters. (I know you'll say the Ring is like the GM, but it's barely even usable at this point so it doesn't count) There's usually little to no impact on the MMO gameworld, where in tabletop you can affect everything (with GM permission). In Ryzom there's nothing more than generic, repeatable missions, where in tabletop the GM can have any number of things happen, hooking you into scenarios, or even letting you go explore the ruins the local townsfolk spoke of.
MMOs are NOT like tabletop. They share minor similarities, that's it. And Ryzom is no different. Sure you can do whatever you want, but how is that like a tabletop RPG? When was the last time the characters went hunting for wolves/spiders/dragons/etc. so that they could make a piece of armour or craft a sword? Cause that's all I there seems to do in Ryzom. Different creatures, but the same thing nonetheless.
The only game out there that is even close to tabletop is NWN. And that requires a good DM (or multiple DMs, like in a PW) to make it work. Only then can they make the players feel like their characters are making a impact on the gameworld. Perhaps once the Ryzom Ring allows people to host scenarios without having to be online it'll be a closer approximation of tabletop. But then, it'll still be an /approximation/.
Tabletop is dynamic. MMOs are static. There's no way you can compare the two.
Flame on!
Forget Grimachu and his opinion and dont waste your time on his posts.. he loves to post all day and trys to defend his religion. Here or on the Ryzom Forums doesnt matter...
Forget Grimachu and his opinion and dont waste your time on his posts.. he loves to post all day and trys to defend his religion. Here or on the Ryzom Forums doesnt matter...
Unlike you they were capable of a rational discussion.
Saying an atheist has a religion is always good for a chuckle, there's nothing 'supernatural' about my opinion of the lacking traits in most MMORPGs.
Comments
Fixed your typos.
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Aye, if you lack friends in real life so much that you have to imagine a different world to escape to. I Occasionally have uninspired days when I actually believe i Live inside a computer game. I often find myself waking waiting to enter this virtual world. If this sounds like you then ryzom is a must for you.
P.S anyone can do this. Its just a biased unevidenced opinion and shouldn't even be bothered posting. If ryzpm is so good then explain why. Maybe this is why your game is dead/.
Beta Tested: Lineage 2, Ryzom, City of Heroes, RYL, EverQuest 2 World Of Warcraft European
Truly Loved: World of Warcraft
Sounds like you shouldn't play ANY fantasy game at all if that's your attitude. Or consume any fantasy/SF media at all.
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Roleplaying games to DIE for
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Quite possibly yes.
Perhaps you'd be better off with static media?
Postmortem Studios
Roleplaying games to DIE for
Shop here
Perhaps you'd be better off with static media?
Delightful. You've zinged me. Congratulations. Instead of being pulled down to your level, I think I'm going to leave. Please enjoy the remainder of this thread in my absence.
You left yourself open to it.
Look.
MMORPGs stem from RPG roots, they've forgotten a lot of what made/makes tabletop RPGs great and substituted things contrary to the model that makes them a less satisfying experience but one of the things that crosses the boundary is the satisfaction of making your own way in whatever world has been created, putting your own spin on it. That's more important than what power you get at level 62 or what the optimum warrior 'build' is. If you don't get that, you've missed the point of the 'RPG' bit. You get out what you put in, if you'd rather be spoonfed there's plenty of options but don't come in slagging or you'll get slapped.
Postmortem Studios
Roleplaying games to DIE for
Shop here
If Robotix had just stated his opinion on the game, I think the reaction would have been quite different. What was actually implied was that those who enjoy Ryzom, enjoy being bored, at least that's how I perceived it. To say "personally, I found the game boring" would have been vastly different and less insulting to the current player base and highly unlikely to provoke that kind of reaction.
Then you start your post with insults and are put out when they come back at you?
98% of the teenage population does or has accepted Marijauna propoganda. If you are one of the 2% that thinks for yourselves and has read any of the many scientific studies that prove cannabis is harmless then please paste this in your signiture.
Grim, I don't know why you seem to have a problem with anyone who says Ryzom is lacking content. It's true. It lacks what most games have, ie. "traditional content". I know there is a strong RP aspect in Ryzom, and that's good (I'm actually a RPer in MMOs), but stop comparing it to tabletop RPGs. They are completely different formats. I've played (and RPed in) lots of MMOs and lots of tabletop so I think I can tell the difference.
In Ryzom (or any MMO even) there's no GM to craft the world around your group of characters. (I know you'll say the Ring is like the GM, but it's barely even usable at this point so it doesn't count) There's usually little to no impact on the MMO gameworld, where in tabletop you can affect everything (with GM permission). In Ryzom there's nothing more than generic, repeatable missions, where in tabletop the GM can have any number of things happen, hooking you into scenarios, or even letting you go explore the ruins the local townsfolk spoke of.
MMOs are NOT like tabletop. They share minor similarities, that's it. And Ryzom is no different. Sure you can do whatever you want, but how is that like a tabletop RPG? When was the last time the characters went hunting for wolves/spiders/dragons/etc. so that they could make a piece of armour or craft a sword? Cause that's all I there seems to do in Ryzom. Different creatures, but the same thing nonetheless.
The only game out there that is even close to tabletop is NWN. And that requires a good DM (or multiple DMs, like in a PW) to make it work. Only then can they make the players feel like their characters are making a impact on the gameworld. Perhaps once the Ryzom Ring allows people to host scenarios without having to be online it'll be a closer approximation of tabletop. But then, it'll still be an /approximation/.
Tabletop is dynamic. MMOs are static. There's no way you can compare the two.
Flame on!
__________________________________
Playing - Waiting on GW2
Formerly played - Aion, CO, CoX, EVE, GW1, LotRO, RIFT, Ryzom, SWG, SWTOR, WAR, WoW
Trialed - AA, DDO, EQ2, L2, MxO, RYL, TERA, VSoH
Beta'd - HGL, GW2, PotBS, SWTOR, TCoS, TR
Anticipating - GW2, PS2
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I never got the chance to see any of the GM events, as they were always on Saturdays. Anyone who works Saturday, or is busy with RL in some way will miss out on the events in Ryzom. I'm sure that it is an interesting way to affect the world, but when it is only available to some players for a short period of time, it doesn't quite do it's job. EVE Online is much better in this respect IMO. The battles over systems in EVE can be anytime, and do affect the entire gameworld in a sense.I know you really dislike PvP, but remember, that's your view. Everyone has their own opinion, and MMOs don't have to cater to just one type of player.
It's true, player events can be an exciting thing and allow the player to feel like they are affecting the gameworld, but they don't count towards an MMO having content. Plus, the whole experience can be cheapened when the mobs simply respawn (assuming the event was to kill/capture/whatever some creature/NPC. There are many more types of events, but that's the only one the game has any mechanics for. Otherwise people are just standing around typing. You might as well use MSN/ICQ/etc. for that)
As for encyclopedia missions, I never was able to find any, so I can't see how that is content, or how it allows the player to affect the gameworld.
Yes, MMOs have been designed from tabletop. Most MMOs are similar to tabletop in only a few ways: 1) fantasy gameworld, 2) levels and classes, and possibly 3) quests. They are like DnD (which BTW I hate. Go GURPS!), stripped down to just the combat mechanics. Ryzom is no different.
I'm curious. Since Ryzom has been out for a few years now, the gameworld should be considerably altered from it's initial state. Have the mobs spawns been changed? Have resources disappeared/re-appeared in different areas? Have towns been built/destroyed/taken over? Have alliances of tribes been made to go to war with other factions? Have new ruins/dungeons/areas been found? I don't recall hearing of anything like this happening.As for the Counterstrike comment, yes, there are quite a few undesirables in MMOs today. Mostly due to WoW. But you can't really blame them. MMOs are just the combat part of an RPG, and as these players simply want to run around killing stuff, it suits them fine. It's more the people like me who expect far more from an MMO who don't belong. What I expect from a genre with "RPG" in its name, is far more than MMOs currently present. I think MMOs whould be called "MMOGs", strip out the "RP". There's barely a sense of RP in them, aside from the classes and levels I mentioned before.
All I heard was an NPC won a vote and became a new race's leader. Wooooo ...
Again, keep the tabletop references for the table. MMOs are games. Nothing more. Treat them as such.
__________________________________
Playing - Waiting on GW2
Formerly played - Aion, CO, CoX, EVE, GW1, LotRO, RIFT, Ryzom, SWG, SWTOR, WAR, WoW
Trialed - AA, DDO, EQ2, L2, MxO, RYL, TERA, VSoH
Beta'd - HGL, GW2, PotBS, SWTOR, TCoS, TR
Anticipating - GW2, PS2
Again, keep the tabletop references for the table. MMOs are games. Nothing more. Treat them as such.
That would be like ignoring the evolutionary past of any organism, particularly when MMOs are actually more of a 'degenerate' form of their forebears.
Events that have changed the world
1. Various events revealing lore.
2. Tryton's departure for the Prime Roots.
3. Semi-factional fighting over Trytonist agents revealing info about Jena.
4. A vote to determine the direction of the Fyrosian senate.
5. A vote to determine the next Tryker leader and their stance.
6. Invasion events.
7. The opening of the passageway between Zorai and Fyros.
8. The Temple War.
Others that I've likely missed due to occasionally being busy.
The events are not always run on saturdays and sometimes there are lead-in smaller events run in the days and weeks leading up to the major event.
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Let's see ....
1. Okay, this isn't bad, I'll give you that.
2. What exactly did this affect? Did certain NPCs disappear with this, possibly removing the ability to do something in-game (ie. quests, faction gain, buying items)?
3. Okay, this sounds like Lore again. Not bad.
4 & 5. This sounds about as fun as real voting. Again, did this affect anything? NPC prices, available missions, faction reputations, NPC/creature spawns, etc? If it didn't change anything, this is like voting in a new government in RL, only to have them do exactly the same thing as the last one.
6. Okay, now you're actually talking about something interesting. With noticable affects on the gameworld. A similar event happened in SWG way-back-when, when Imperial troops were spawned and attacked a known Rebel town. Everyone I talked to really enjoyed things like this.
7. Here you go, another event that /actually/ changed something. But what I'm wondering is: Is it always possible for the players to affect the outcome of this? ie. On one server the players manage to open the way, and on another they fail? Cause if it all ends up the same, that doesn't count as affecting the gameworld. There has to be more than one outcome for the players otherwise it's just masking the fact they are being "railroaded".
8. What exactly did this accomplish? Like I said before, did it affect the availability of factional items/missions/etc.?
You've stated a bunch of events, but unless they've changed the gameworld in some recognizable sense, it's not the same as tabletop. If nothing's changed a player who played at launch could come back now and not find anything different. Game mechanic changes and the addition of PvP doesn't count, as they were added by Nevrax, and weren't affected by players at all.
I'd really like to hear how these events shaped the world of Atys, in concrete terms. I'm more than willing to admit I'm wrong, if I am. But what you've said so far hasn't proved that at all. Dynamic content does not mean temporary static content, ie. content that lasts for a set period of time. Dynamic content is content that persists until some point where the actions (or inactions) of the players changes it. So far, I haven't seen any of this in MMOs.
Your turn.
__________________________________
Playing - Waiting on GW2
Formerly played - Aion, CO, CoX, EVE, GW1, LotRO, RIFT, Ryzom, SWG, SWTOR, WAR, WoW
Trialed - AA, DDO, EQ2, L2, MxO, RYL, TERA, VSoH
Beta'd - HGL, GW2, PotBS, SWTOR, TCoS, TR
Anticipating - GW2, PS2
Let's see ....
2. What exactly did this affect? Did certain NPCs disappear with this, possibly removing the ability to do something in-game (ie. quests, faction gain, buying items)?
Well, I regard these as negative effects to the game overall, but they are effects. It sucked credibility and direction away from the neutral 'faction' and placed a very important (almost another 'god') NPC in limbo. Since then the influence of the NPC guild of that individual has been noticably less though there may be some kind of payoff in the future, we don't know. Some of this is on trust as I've seen that future events often seem to be influenced by prior events.
I think it's important to note that far reaching effects on the gameworld aren't necessarily dependent upon a hard, in game effect (such as missing NPCs) in order to have a long running effect.
4 & 5. This sounds about as fun as real voting. Again, did this affect anything? NPC prices, available missions, faction reputations, NPC/creature spawns, etc? If it didn't change anything, this is like voting in a new government in RL, only to have them do exactly the same thing as the last one.
See above. Again it's hard to tell but a 'dove' was elected to the senate in Fyros and this has probably resulted in less incendiery rhetoric coming from the Fyros leaders as compared to if the other candidate (a hawk) had won.
Similarly the candidates in Tryker covered a spectrum and the winner seems to refect Tryker nationalism and independence that is/was reflected in the Tryker players. Given that some players do operate and RP according to what these leaders say and do, and that events may have been different according to which leaders got these positions, yes I'd say it had an effect.
7. Here you go, another event that /actually/ changed something. But what I'm wondering is: Is it always possible for the players to affect the outcome of this? ie. On one server the players manage to open the way, and on another they fail? Cause if it all ends up the same, that doesn't count as affecting the gameworld. There has to be more than one outcome for the players otherwise it's just masking the fact they are being "railroaded".
The servers have diverged in various ways, like the election results and like the temple war (see below). Every server managed to open the passageway though. The divergence in other events suggests that this could have taken a different route. Server divergence hasn't lived up to initial promise, but it is there.
8. What exactly did this accomplish? Like I said before, did it affect the availability of factional items/missions/etc.?
It affected whether a temple (and the lore available at it) were available in each land, along with temple guards and reward givers. Whether the temples will do anything else in the future remains to be seen.
I'd really like to hear how these events shaped the world of Atys, in concrete terms. I'm more than willing to admit I'm wrong, if I am. But what you've said so far hasn't proved that at all. Dynamic content does not mean temporary static content, ie. content that lasts for a set period of time. Dynamic content is content that persists until some point where the actions (or inactions) of the players changes it. So far, I haven't seen any of this in MMOs.
See above.
They could do more, but it is there.
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Okay, there does seem to be a slight divergence, so the players aren't necessarily being railroaded. But without some kind of noticable effect, the divergence becomes meaningless.Example: Server A voted Bob in. Server B voted for Dave. If nothing is affected, who the @&;$%# cares?
Here you go, tangible effects. More of this would be nice.You have shown that some of the events can shape the game, but it seems that it's mostly limited to how the players decide to act on the changes. Now, for you, it seems that this is enough to say the events shape the world. I, on the other hand, can't say this is true at all. Some events have, but most of those you mentioned have done nothing to make a visible impact on the game.
And lastly,
It appears that you don't wish for the effects of events to alter anyone's game experience. You can't have dynamic content if everything stays the same. Some things have to be given, some taken away. Otherwise it's not "dynamic", it's static. And that was my whole point in the first place. Tabletop = Dynamic. MMOs = static. They are inherently not the same.I'm sure we could go on for ages on this. But I'm going to stop here.
Feel free to respond though.
__________________________________
Playing - Waiting on GW2
Formerly played - Aion, CO, CoX, EVE, GW1, LotRO, RIFT, Ryzom, SWG, SWTOR, WAR, WoW
Trialed - AA, DDO, EQ2, L2, MxO, RYL, TERA, VSoH
Beta'd - HGL, GW2, PotBS, SWTOR, TCoS, TR
Anticipating - GW2, PS2
Grim, I don't know why you seem to have a problem with anyone who says Ryzom is lacking content. It's true. It lacks what most games have, ie. "traditional content". I know there is a strong RP aspect in Ryzom, and that's good (I'm actually a RPer in MMOs), but stop comparing it to tabletop RPGs. They are completely different formats. I've played (and RPed in) lots of MMOs and lots of tabletop so I think I can tell the difference.
In Ryzom (or any MMO even) there's no GM to craft the world around your group of characters. (I know you'll say the Ring is like the GM, but it's barely even usable at this point so it doesn't count) There's usually little to no impact on the MMO gameworld, where in tabletop you can affect everything (with GM permission). In Ryzom there's nothing more than generic, repeatable missions, where in tabletop the GM can have any number of things happen, hooking you into scenarios, or even letting you go explore the ruins the local townsfolk spoke of.
MMOs are NOT like tabletop. They share minor similarities, that's it. And Ryzom is no different. Sure you can do whatever you want, but how is that like a tabletop RPG? When was the last time the characters went hunting for wolves/spiders/dragons/etc. so that they could make a piece of armour or craft a sword? Cause that's all I there seems to do in Ryzom. Different creatures, but the same thing nonetheless.
The only game out there that is even close to tabletop is NWN. And that requires a good DM (or multiple DMs, like in a PW) to make it work. Only then can they make the players feel like their characters are making a impact on the gameworld. Perhaps once the Ryzom Ring allows people to host scenarios without having to be online it'll be a closer approximation of tabletop. But then, it'll still be an /approximation/.
Tabletop is dynamic. MMOs are static. There's no way you can compare the two.
Flame on!
Forget Grimachu and his opinion and dont waste your time on his posts.. he loves to post all day and trys to defend his religion. Here or on the Ryzom Forums doesnt matter...
Unlike you they were capable of a rational discussion.
Saying an atheist has a religion is always good for a chuckle, there's nothing 'supernatural' about my opinion of the lacking traits in most MMORPGs.
Postmortem Studios
Roleplaying games to DIE for
Shop here
The game is different from other MMo, you can like it or not.
But the game don't suck at all and this is the reason why it is still alive.
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