Don't Romantisize Pre-CU so much.

Nerf09 · December 2006

I quit the game way before NGE, and pre-CU, even though my two brothers kept playing. (They quit after NGE).

Reasons were, as far as I can remember:

-Ranger camps, and most other ranger skills were useless. They didn't do anything but look cool.

-Jedi grind completely ruined the atmosphere. It seemed as if everyone was grinding except me.

-Camped resources and buildings everywhere. Every good resource was overcrowded with thumpers. An easy fix for that would be to allow rebels to destroy imperial buildings, and imperials to destroy rebel buildings. Its called WAR. Invulnerable buildings don't exist in WAR. Even the deathstar wasn't invulnerable if I remember my movies correctly.

Nerf09 · December 2006

Thats right, I said destructable player buildings, you heard me correctly.

"But it costs to much to erect a building."

Then decrease the cost of erecting a building.

Destructable buildings would have vastly improved the player market, remember how the low level stuff was just skill-grinding stuff you destroyed in your inventory? Remember inflation? Destructable buildings would have solved both problems, inflation and low level itmes you could sell on the market.

severius · December 2006

All of the above were problems with the game. I doubt anyone would say that there weren't flaws with the game pre-cu, hell even pre-9. But what I think most every veteran can agree upon (well of course except Obraik :P) is that the game, despite its many flaws, was still a hell of a lot better than what it is today.

The hologrind was the first mis-step taken by the dev team... from what I can remember of that time there were plenty of interviews and videos of the devs saying that they were at a point where everyday they were monitoring a handful of players because they were soooo close to unlocking. But no one did, and they (the devs) got impatient so they implemented the holocrons and 5 or 10 minutes after the server went up from its maintenance and the holocron patch, someone went out and killed a bol and unlocked their slot.

It wasnt because the players were impatient... it was the devs. Then things started going downhill as development shifted from the community at large to cater to the jedi population that was rapidly growing. They had always stated that jedi would be hard to attain and harder to advance in. Then because of some whining they said ohhh ok, no more perma-death. Then they said awwww ok, no more saber tefs. Of course the players didnt help much during this time with the afk grinding to become a jedi (especially after they took the death penalty away). Its funny but a good number of hte original jedi on my server got sick and tired of the game because that entire element of death around every corner was gone.

Don't forget that before the CU there were the promises of the Combat Revamp, Smuggler Revamp, Ranger Revamp, etc etc etc. Had the dev team actually followed up on their promises instead of shoving their heads so far up each others backsides swg could be a far stronger game than it is today.

hercules · December 2006

Originally posted by severius

All of the above were problems with the game. I doubt anyone would say that there weren't flaws with the game pre-cu, hell even pre-9. But what I think most every veteran can agree upon (well of course except Obraik :P) is that the game, despite its many flaws, was still a hell of a lot better than what it is today.
The hologrind was the first mis-step taken by the dev team... from what I can remember of that time there were plenty of interviews and videos of the devs saying that they were at a point where everyday they were monitoring a handful of players because they were soooo close to unlocking. But no one did, and they (the devs) got impatient so they implemented the holocrons and 5 or 10 minutes after the server went up from its maintenance and the holocron patch, someone went out and killed a bol and unlocked their slot.
It wasnt because the players were impatient... it was the devs. Then things started going downhill as development shifted from the community at large to cater to the jedi population that was rapidly growing. They had always stated that jedi would be hard to attain and harder to advance in. Then because of some whining they said ohhh ok, no more perma-death. Then they said awwww ok, no more saber tefs. Of course the players didnt help much during this time with the afk grinding to become a jedi (especially after they took the death penalty away). Its funny but a good number of hte original jedi on my server got sick and tired of the game because that entire element of death around every corner was gone.
Don't forget that before the CU there were the promises of the Combat Revamp, Smuggler Revamp, Ranger Revamp, etc etc etc. Had the dev team actually followed up on their promises instead of shoving their heads so far up each others backsides swg could be a far stronger game than it is today.

Nope go back way further down to the verrant crew who started SWG.Yes thats right pre - beta when verrant insisted no jedi and somehow LA felt they could repserve the RP part of SWG along side the jedis in this time frame.

Shortly after 2 main developers of verrant(newly dissolved to be SoE) posted this.They left one for sigil to work on vangard ,one to blizzard to work on a game called World of warcraft

From there on the new SoE developers and LA had no idea whatsoever to stop the explosion of jedis.They could have opened the flood gates anytime they wanted but tried to hold it back as much as possible to avoid losing the RP players and at same time keep the "future jedis" happy.Which was never ever possible .

The inital bad launch of the game just made matters worse.Some big wigs at SoE/LA were clearly unhappy with the numbers and felt it should have done way better.So they HAD to bring in jedis purely to try bring the lightsaber crowd in and pray the RPers (ofc we didn't).

Like you said and i totally agreed from there on it was bowing to the jedi population wishes because they lost the rest.So things like squad leader,droid engineer,rangers etc just got forgotten and all focus was on jedis.Again just like you said anything moaned about on jedi forum was the new bible- no perma death,no restrictions on numbers,no saber TEF (all things promised to the RP/story arc crowd back in beta).But then again that was the only crowd left.

Now here is where they drop the final ball.The new NGE.I seriously think someone actually sat down and said "wtf is this game a jedi only game.lets bring other classes up".I think the intention was good but for one factor.There was hardly anyone left without the jedi or be a jedi intention.Now bringing the jedi after 2 years to an area its similar to other classes to make them viable again was plain silly .

This should have been a problem sorted 2 years ago !Had they just learnt to say no rather then open their legs to every post on the jedi forum they would not have a mess.The jedi community would have moaned but stuck with it because the all powerful class was in the game which is primarily what they wanted even if it meant perma death,TEF or number restrictions .They would have grinded and waited patiently for their turn because they know it exists and ingame.This would have left the rest of the crowd still playing and even the "wannabie" jedis would have kept playing the other classes.Buisness as usual and they could even have time to sort other issues.

In end all they did was drive one community after the other.A lesson here- listen to your fans but learn to say no when it interfers with the vision of the game.

zoey121 · December 2006

The big things i remember pre cu early game fall was the dissappearing house bug and inventory dissappearing at certain zones.

Especialy bad for traders with vendors or charcters trying to trade in a bad area.

I can also remember the dissappearing house bug. The day they came out with a patch to fix the bug my poor entertainer finnaly had enough to get their first house. Next day it dissappeared and customer service was no help.....

A rather bitter memory was a thread Thunderheart did on how much credits do you earn during a game play session.

That was when I started working on something besides being a entertainer and one of the first mission pay out nerfs came along shortly there after

iskareot · December 2006

Originally posted by zoey121

The big things i remember pre cu early game fall was the dissappearing house bug and inventory dissappearing at certain zones.

Especialy bad for traders with vendors or charcters trying to trade in a bad area.

I can also remember the dissappearing house bug. The day they came out with a patch to fix the bug my poor entertainer finnaly had enough to get their first house. Next day it dissappeared and customer service was no help.....

A rather bitter memory was a thread Thunderheart did on how much credits do you earn during a game play session.

That was when I started working on something besides being a entertainer and one of the first mission pay out nerfs came along shortly there after

Nobody will argue that there was issues... not a chance... BUT compared to what you have now vs that.. or better yet -- WHAT had promise and hope and a clearly different in depth MMO is shot.

You can only hack it down so much that it becomes a simple block of wood.

But housing" -- as many others were issues they could have addressed... brought people in ...etc.. In hindsight-- I can bet they wished they had.

acmtalk · December 2006

Originally posted by severius

All of the above were problems with the game. I doubt anyone would say that there weren't flaws with the game pre-cu, hell even pre-9. But what I think most every veteran can agree upon (well of course except Obraik :P) is that the game, despite its many flaws, was still a hell of a lot better than what it is today.
The hologrind was the first mis-step taken by the dev team... from what I can remember of that time there were plenty of interviews and videos of the devs saying that they were at a point where everyday they were monitoring a handful of players because they were soooo close to unlocking. But no one did, and they (the devs) got impatient so they implemented the holocrons and 5 or 10 minutes after the server went up from its maintenance and the holocron patch, someone went out and killed a bol and unlocked their slot.
It wasnt because the players were impatient... it was the devs. Then things started going downhill as development shifted from the community at large to cater to the jedi population that was rapidly growing. They had always stated that jedi would be hard to attain and harder to advance in. Then because of some whining they said ohhh ok, no more perma-death. Then they said awwww ok, no more saber tefs. Of course the players didnt help much during this time with the afk grinding to become a jedi (especially after they took the death penalty away). Its funny but a good number of hte original jedi on my server got sick and tired of the game because that entire element of death around every corner was gone.
Don't forget that before the CU there were the promises of the Combat Revamp, Smuggler Revamp, Ranger Revamp, etc etc etc. Had the dev team actually followed up on their promises instead of shoving their heads so far up each others backsides swg could be a far stronger game than it is today.

I agree 100% And I have been saying this since long. The Jedi grind started killing this game! If they had stick to their plan, and had made jedi balanced to other professions to begin with, This game would be going strong still.

iskareot · December 2006

The Jedi grind was not the problem and making it the same is and was a failure as you see now.

There is nothing wrong with a Alpha class as long as the penatly is there. I unlocked early -- 6/7 -- trust me there was penalty for my effort.

If they had stuck to the plan of making us hard to get, rare then it could have worked... change the grind -- who knows, BUT not make it easier... that is where marketing got involved I think.

Making that class, easy and weak was a mistake as you can see now. But like I said, there needed to be risk vs reward used well... close to what it was at the start.

If I die 3 times you lose it all... (Sorry, that was nasty -- and I know)...the grind could have been changed. None the less... the games demise was a small amount of people crying that it "wasn't fair"... but instead of them asking for help or calling in a second team of Devs while they had the cash flow and promise-- they didn't.

I really think it was the start of the Dev team saying "OH OH I KNOW LET's try this!"... Because most of us were ready for some change... just not a make over. The CU was the start of the mess... from then on it got worse. Easy Easy Easy was the word... it got a bit silly at some point.

Sad to see it end up like this though.

Chale · December 2006

if i could go back to when the cu launched knowing what the game would become i would never have complained about it :-/

starman999 · December 2006

I agree with the OP.....

the game was far better when there were no Doc buffs and no hologrinding. Jedi should have been random LIKE THEY SAID IT WOULD BE and they should have kept perma death.

Harry-Sack · December 2006

It's actually romanticize.

But more to the point, you are right. And... so? Yeah there were a lot of things wrong. The NGE didn't solve any of them.

Lateris · December 2006

Jedi should be a grind and an elite class.

Oh man I remember posting on the beta boards for SWG’s before the big release and just begging them to fix the game. We all did. The devs were less than happy and ignored us. But to me- by the time we got to PRE CU the game was a ton of fun. It felt like good things were finally coming. EQ II was the same engine and they were talking about player apartments, devs were asking questions on how to bring the player back to the city. There was a new vibe in t he SWG world. Then the NGE hit....and then we became wow….

Sure beta Pre CU release was bonked and something needed to be done but making the game like world of warcraft was just stupid. The game was so broken but had the air of originality like eve Online has. It could have found its own niche had it hung on. Niches last longer than trends. And wow is a trend due to a damn well made game. But if I wanted WoW I would play wow in wow. I want star wars. I just don’t want a nerfed game. I want an amazing game that lives up to a standard that is Star Wars. Jim Ward is an idiot who should have stayed in manufacturing. The principles of creativity are not the same.

The proof is that EQ II is the same engine and has done more with their game. EQ II has grown in subscription numbers while SWG has not - what a shame. It all proves that it does have to do with good game design- The CEO for Lucas Arts game division is not a game designer nor does he have the XP for it.

My hope is that after their crafter and trader revamp they actually make this game amount to the quality of what star wars should be. I know I have on paper. And the fact is that SOE and Lucas Arts do have the resources and talent to get it down. The wrong leadership is in charge. Wanting to be WoW is jumping on a bandwagon. It is like trying to be the Beatles or Led Zeppelin or some other legend. Be yourself.

Sure the game was broken. It still is.

Yes the jedi were a grind -that makes RPG sense. Oh well .

KzinKiller · December 2006

Originally posted by Nerf09

Thats right, I said destructable player buildings, you heard me correctly.

"But it costs to much to erect a building."

Then decrease the cost of erecting a building.

Destructable buildings would have vastly improved the player market, remember how the low level stuff was just skill-grinding stuff you destroyed in your inventory? Remember inflation? Destructable buildings would have solved both problems, inflation and low level itmes you could sell on the market.

I was a resource merchant, a big part of my daily play was running out to check the harvesters or go find the new resource spawns.

And I wouldn't have had any problem with destructible buildings. If implemented intelligently.

OK, so that rules out that concept if implemented by SWG's management team, obviously.

The basic harvester should have been fairly easy to destroy ... for a Commando with heavy weapons. But my friendly neighborhood armorsmith should have been able to sell me Harvester Plating that made my harvester much more difficult to take out. My weaponsmith and droid engineer should have been able to sell me Harvester Defense Units that counter-attacked that pesky Commando if he dared to open fire on my harvester. And of course, if my harvester was under attack, I should immediately get an in-game notification so I can go and deal with the TEF'd Commando if I happen to be online.

A heavily armored Harvester would take at least 15-30 minutes to destroy with a lot of heavy weapons fire, giving me time to mount a counterattack and defend my property.

So, in an intelligently designed system, destructible buildings provide new business to at least 3 classes of crafter, act as focal points for PvP combat, and provide a new and essential GCW role for the Commando class.

But hey .... why do anything like that? It doesn't do anything for Jedi, so obviously it's not worth doing.

This is why they failed.

Draiken · December 2006

Two things for you nerf herder:

One: If you didn't like what the ranger profession entailed, then don't be one.

Two: People didn't complain about destructable housing because of cost, they complained because they were afraid of losing their items inside the household.

And if those were your concerns about the game, I'd take a much close look at it. There is plenty more in the "crap" department where SWG is concerned.

Tagurit · December 2006

Originally posted by iskareot

The Jedi grind was not the problem and making it the same is and was a failure as you see now.
There is nothing wrong with a Alpha class as long as the penatly is there.   I unlocked early -- 6/7 -- trust me there was penalty for my effort.
If they had stuck to the plan of making us hard to get, rare then it could have worked... change the grind -- who knows, BUT not make it easier... that is where marketing got involved I think.
Making that class, easy and weak was a mistake as you can see now.   But like I said, there needed to be risk vs reward used well... close to what it was at the start.
If I die 3 times you lose it all... (Sorry, that was nasty -- and I know)...the grind could have been changed. None the less... the games demise was a small amount of people crying that it "wasn't fair"... but instead of them asking for help or calling in a second team of Devs while they had the cash flow and promise-- they didn't.
I really think it was the start of the Dev team saying "OH OH I KNOW LET's try this!"... Because most of us were ready for some change... just not a make over.   The CU was the start of the mess... from then on it got worse.   Easy Easy Easy was the word... it got a bit silly at some point.
Sad to see it end up like this though.

Well I unlocked after Pub 9 but I would have welcomed Perma-death. If nothing else, it would have kept the population down.... Gimme back now!

acmtalk · December 2006

Originally posted by iskareot

The Jedi grind was not the problem and making it the same is and was a failure as you see now.
There is nothing wrong with a Alpha class as long as the penatly is there.   I unlocked early -- 6/7 -- trust me there was penalty for my effort.
If they had stuck to the plan of making us hard to get, rare then it could have worked... change the grind -- who knows, BUT not make it easier... that is where marketing got involved I think.
Making that class, easy and weak was a mistake as you can see now.   But like I said, there needed to be risk vs reward used well... close to what it was at the start.
If I die 3 times you lose it all... (Sorry, that was nasty -- and I know)...the grind could have been changed. None the less... the games demise was a small amount of people crying that it "wasn't fair"... but instead of them asking for help or calling in a second team of Devs while they had the cash flow and promise-- they didn't.
I really think it was the start of the Dev team saying "OH OH I KNOW LET's try this!"... Because most of us were ready for some change... just not a make over.   The CU was the start of the mess... from then on it got worse.   Easy Easy Easy was the word... it got a bit silly at some point.
Sad to see it end up like this though.

well, Thats not how things work. If Jedi was there for being unlocked, 80% of the player base wold grind for it anyways, It was a question of time till the entire server had a jedi, I got mine pre-cu, But afeter Pub-9, I never wanted to be one, But PVP became 95% Jedi in my server, so No chance for my BH/Pistoller/smugler to compete at all, I think SWG would have done better without jedi at all.

Draiken · December 2006

Some of the best players on my server were bounty hunters. You just need to have excellent equipment and know how to utilize your skills. Half of the Jedi out there had no idea what they were doing anyways. Now about 90% have no idea what they are doing.

XApotheosisX · December 2006

I don't think any former SWG player will EVER say that SWG is perfect, far from it. however it was way better than it is now. sure it had bugs, sure it had balance issues and what not ... but the NGE does as well, plus pre CU added so much other stuff.

hercules · December 2006

Hmm many here speak like they never played any other mmorpg besides SWG.

The reason a elite class is a mmorpg developer worst nightmare is as long as they exist people will want it .Pure and simple.

Only way ever to control such a class is permadeath and limited numbers.Both of which the jedi community refused and screamed murder over.

Funny enough more then half the people screaming here for over a year are the same people who helped to kill SWG.

From a marketing point of view maybe adding jedi was right.Just add them let a few people per server open the slot up and put in permadeath so others can .That way they would have kept the other side of the community and the jedi crowd.

severius · December 2006

Originally posted by hercules

Originally posted by severius

All of the above were problems with the game. I doubt anyone would say that there weren't flaws with the game pre-cu, hell even pre-9. But what I think most every veteran can agree upon (well of course except Obraik :P) is that the game, despite its many flaws, was still a hell of a lot better than what it is today.
The hologrind was the first mis-step taken by the dev team... from what I can remember of that time there were plenty of interviews and videos of the devs saying that they were at a point where everyday they were monitoring a handful of players because they were soooo close to unlocking. But no one did, and they (the devs) got impatient so they implemented the holocrons and 5 or 10 minutes after the server went up from its maintenance and the holocron patch, someone went out and killed a bol and unlocked their slot.
It wasnt because the players were impatient... it was the devs. Then things started going downhill as development shifted from the community at large to cater to the jedi population that was rapidly growing. They had always stated that jedi would be hard to attain and harder to advance in. Then because of some whining they said ohhh ok, no more perma-death. Then they said awwww ok, no more saber tefs. Of course the players didnt help much during this time with the afk grinding to become a jedi (especially after they took the death penalty away). Its funny but a good number of hte original jedi on my server got sick and tired of the game because that entire element of death around every corner was gone.
Don't forget that before the CU there were the promises of the Combat Revamp, Smuggler Revamp, Ranger Revamp, etc etc etc. Had the dev team actually followed up on their promises instead of shoving their heads so far up each others backsides swg could be a far stronger game than it is today.