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This new trend turns me off
Like most of you, I'm foaming at the mouth for a new MMO. And looks like it will be a long wait.
As I have been following all of the forums of the up coming titles, I've noticed they all have something horribly in common. They all have topics such as:
"WOW clone"
"WOW killer?"
I for one loose interst in that forum and or thread immediately. Even in Bioware Dev chat, they compare thier ideas to WOW. I realized that the industry lately can't come up with anything original but, why is everything measured by WOW standards? You can consider that a good or bad thing.
My point is why would you want it to be? Whatever happened to variety?
Here's what I expect from these sections of this website everytime I look in them.
WAR- WoW clone?, WAR came first, WoW killer?
AOC- Pretty quiet, nothing new discussed. (but there is a "WOW clone?" topic)
Vanguard- Beta leakers vs vanbois, Sigil will sellout like Variant did vs SOE are only publishers, WoW clone, WoW killer?
GAH- Pretty quiet, nothing new discussed. (but there is a "wow clone?" topic)
Is this all that these games have to offer? Because nobody talks about anything else.
Off topic and for the humor, lets not forget about the IS THIS GAME FREE and/or WHERE CAN I DOWNLOAD THIS GAME threads (always in caps for some reason). Also these 2 questions are always asked in a game that isn't even out yet. Do they really think new games are fee btw?
Anyways, just interested in peoples' thoughts.
Comments
My personal belief is that many people want a game to emerge innovative and interesting, and titled "WoW-killer" so that all the devs will start copy-catting new ideas (oxymoron, but hear me out). Many people don't want fantasy, raid-based games, and therefore, a lot of people assume if a game has Orcs/Dwarves/Elves, it's obviously a WoW clone.
I want to see a game that knocks WoW out, but not because it takes similar concepts and improves upon them, but because it is so complex and creative, that a simple game like WoW can't even compare.
Also, you have to realize that WoW has attracted MILLIONS of customers to the genre. Just as we veteran players have searched for second, third, even fourth MMO's to call home, there's a new wave of ex-WoW players who crave a new game. In their past, they started on the #1 MMO of all time...so it's my belief they truly want to find something to compete with their beloved.
Make any sense? I know it's poorly organized, but it is 6 a.m. on New Years. There may have been some celebrations...
Waiting for something fresh to arrive on the MMO scene...
Thus, they should be called EQ clones.
But I agree with you. I've seen devs and regular folk comparing games to WoW, but that's how it is. It's the biggest thing in the market now so people will be comparing to it because everyone knows what it is. Not that I think it's a good thing.
And as for this:
"I realized that the industry lately can't come up with anything original"
Welcome to many years ago. MMORPG's havent evolved much in the past 5 years or so. Some fluff has been added, but that's about it. Dev's have been waisting this genres potential with constant EQ clones and the majority of these games are in the same fantasy settings with humans, elves and dragons. It's quite boring.
All i keep thinking is if there wasnt a WOW there would be more people in other mmorpgs and SWG wouldn't have been ruined and maybe devs would be trying other ideas other than WOW. Or it wouldn't matter because a different mmorpg crowd went to wow that never played them before and now more moneys being put into the genre to try and gett he kinda money WOW did.
I understand what all of you are saying.
I never played WoW. I like complex games that will keep my attention for 5 years.
When I see topics like "WoW clone", I don't think about elves and orcs.
I automatically ask myself.
Short-term simpletons game?
Cartoon graphics and over-done combat animation effects?
UI?
So you are saying games get labeled a "WoW clone" if they have orcs?
What about AOC? It's labeled as a WoW clone and yet it's all human, not cartoon graphics, the UI is different. Not sure if it will hold my attention long term or not though.
Same for GAH.
Why are all of these games labeled as WOW clones as if none existed before WoW?
But I'd guess it's because a lot of the new players haven't played any other MMO's. All they know to reference is WoW.
Therefore, everything will be a "WoW clone" to them. They can't reflect on EQ, RO, UO, and other things some of us older players can.
Waiting for something fresh to arrive on the MMO scene...
I know this may sound a tad 'out there' but I tend to beleave the MMO genre didn't 'exist' pre-WoW for most people and most game devs. it was considered 'geeky' and 'non-profitable', but when WoW all of a sudden hit 5 million it was like 'MMOs = cool/profitable'. So to the prepective of 'most' people WoW is the 'first' commeral MMO, so therfore everything post-WoW must be based off WoW, as there was 'nothing' before it.. It's kinda like a music group suddenly hitting the big time after 2-3 albums, only the 'popular' albums are 'known' by most..
Bit of a hard thought to get your head around I know, but it does seem the most logical way of putting it
Bring on the WARRRRGGHH!
Nah, that was a good way of putting it. You could go further by saying once your favorite band goes mainstream, it's not "cool" anymore.
But I know what you mean.
It's a shame, because the first MMOs that we kinda grew up with really were worth playing. As a former UO/EQ player, when was the last time you started a new game asking yourself, "what do I do"? "This game needs to be made easier to play". I think I'm getting off-topic now. That and tired and forgot what point I wanted to add. lol
**steps on soapbox**
--ahem--
Just because something is getting more popular doesn't make it a fad. I, for one, am glad that these games are getting more popular and more people are playing, and companies are coming out with new ideas for the games. Thats what makes them fun.
There are a lot of copies out there, but there are also a lot of good game ideas out there also, that just need to not be in such a rush to come out.
I have been online gaming since the days of MUDS and BBS's. WAAAAYYYYYY before EQ or any of those games even thought of being popular *gasp*. And I think this is a really good time for online gaming and I think that we will start to see a lot of diversity and new ideas this year...maybe
**steps off soapbox**
deposits 2 cents into can.
Well, some of the things I look foreward to in the upcoming games:
Vanguard: Take a look at the player housing video on the vanguard site. It shows that you can use your diplomacy aspect to purchase a house, turn the house into a tavern, and hire employees to run the business while you are away adventuring. Combine this with a food crafting specialty and you will have a place for people to hang out in, meet to form groups, and purchase food/drink for the road. Eventually Vanguard will allow players to form player built villages/towns/cities. So, while you're operating a tavern, other players will be operating various retail stores. Definately a trend in MMORPGs I'd like to see.
Age of Conan: Here, not only can you build your own villages/towns/cities, but you can build fortifications and siege engines, and be a Lord, Commander, Crafter, etc. Does not appear to be as complex as the Vanguard system, as it seems to lack the diplomacy aspect, but still pretty cool. Also has combat formations.
Gods and Heroes: The ability to have underlings fight with you.
Of course, I can't wait til the next generation of MMORPGs, when developers marry the diplomacy, build your own village, be a Lord, Commander, Crafter, etc, and have underlings fight for you aspects. Things that are definately not found in WOW.
This is just a partial example, I'm sure people can think of other cool things that are coming out in MMORPGs. To say these games are just WOW clones is being very parocial.
You say you like complex games mmorpgs but i dont see any around : I see aload of buggy unifinished tedious grindfests that bore the hell outta anyone with a brain. People try to be smart by saying they like complex games they can spend 5 years with but infact a smart person wants to do new things and doesnt want to stick to one game doing the same thing over and over tbh.
WOW is great for people who don't care about Role Play or socialise.
Sad, really.
When I'm talking about the game developer industry I do mean both the mainstream developers and the indie developers as well. Indie's get the stars in their eye's of successful games just as much as the big title devs. Actually, speaking as an idie myself, I think they are even worse in this respect, because a lot of indies think that it's make big bucks or die. Big title devs as a whole don't care quiet so much because they know they will still get paid for their work even if the title eventually flops. This is particularly disturbing when everyone considers the best opportunity for innovation comes from the indie dev scene.
It's disturbing in general to think that a game is not considered important unless, basically, it makes a lot of money for the investors. But that is the state of the industry (and just about any other dynamic industry out there).
What really burns me is when devs take the step that since WoW is so popular that obviously most, if not all, things about the game are done so perfectly in comparison to other games that we need to start emulating parts of the game. But by now they almost have to at this point because the press is just as bad and you know if you don't have such-and-such feature that is in WoW, you're going to get asked why you don't have it at some point. Then again if you do the same thing as WoW people are going to say you just did a WoW clone. Looks like people say that about every game anyway, regardless. It's really tiring to me lately, and I'm sure it's tiring to a lot of other devs and players as well.
I don't think it's all doom and gloom. I think that pretty soon someone out there will do another game that will be considered better than WoW and I'd guess and hope that it comes from a game that is not just refining the points that are in WoW, it will probably come from a group of devs that were just trying to make a good game and perhaps they were tired of playing WoW. They are probably out there somewhere right now. It's just that they are not going to get paid much attention to because everyone is busy talking about WoW. And even so there are a lot of other really great games out there to play right now when you get tired of talking about or playing WoW.
I agree with what people are saying in this thread.
Most people seem to be too quick to judge. They don't look at things from a different perspective. And therefore they make generalizations, or what I like to call...
"seeing colors."
WoW has been marketed, and advertised quite successfully. Much like how Coca-Cola is advertised and that is known all around the world, Everyone in the world knows what Coke is and knows it logo. WoW is known by anyone who even remotely plays games, its a household name to them.
But, more to the point, since WoW has become a household name, many people seem to be skeptical about what comes next.
I mean, have anyone ever seen a Coke Clone? Probably not. But if you did, What would you think?
"It's probably a rip-off lower-rate clone."
"That company is probably trying to make a quick buck off a fimiliar product."
"It probably tastes disgusting!"
I'm pretty sure many people said this about that product even though they never tried it before.
That is why I encourage people to look at that world...
"Color Blind"
Just try the new product! Don't look at the label, or logo! Who knows? Maybe you'll like it. Maybe you'll find out that its even better than Coke. Just because it looks the same doesn't mean it is the same. You might even find that it's Pepsi!
Dont laugh at me, I know when Pepsi first came out many people thought that way.
My point here is that you can judge something by its cover, or look at it as if it were a clone of something because its not. Look at a game as if it were a totally complete different game don't look at it as something else even though it may seem like it.
Have an open mind.
Don't judge a book by its cover. With that you can't judge a book by its first couple of chapters either.
Be Color Blind my friend! Variety is the spice of life! Try different things.
I find it amazing that by 2020 first world countries will be competing to get immigrants.
Looking forward to WAR and COS for some new gameplay.
How is Wow an everquest clone? Nothing like the game. Obviously they all steal things from their predesessors, but that does not mean they are like the other. Using your reasoning, everything would be a UO clone, which has been around at least 2 years longer than anything else.
Vanguard is going to be another Shadowbane, these devs still don't get it that an open ended pvp game with zero consequences will not succeed. How many games have to go bust for them to realize it?
Not sure how Age of Conan will work out, Funcom has not done anything since AO. Have to wait and see on that one.
Since War is being done by Mythic, I have deep reservations about their ability to balance classes, which is a necessity for a pvp based MMO. In the 5 years that DAoC has been out they have never come close to balancing the classes in that game.
Why would anyone quote that fool John Smedley, if he is not the dumbest exec in the MMO industry, I would be shocked. Of course that seems to be the norm at Sony lately, talk about dumb executives lol.
As sad as this may sound, I'm starting to get the feeling that the P2P MMO industry is going to have to implode before we start to see better games. To me, its less about World of Warcraft, and more about the conventions of the industry as a whole. Like people have mentioned, the idea on everyone's mind in P2P MMO development is, "get that money made." They have this as an attitude, because MMOs seem like California during the gold rush: no rules, relatively low startup costs, and the promise of immense quarterly earnings. I liken it to the years before 1984, when we had the big crash in the Atari cart wars, where the goal was not to create games, but to create fast bucks.
Back in the early days, before a lot of you were even born, people couldn't get enough Atari 2600 games. There was a demand for new carts, and relatively little consumer knowledge of what was out there. For awhile, you could sell any sort of trash you wanted, as long as you had a fancy title, good box art, and a persuasive pitch. I mean, all you really had to do was get the customer at the sales counter, which meant that most of the effort was in the packaging, and not the product. I mean, if the market allows you to make money selling bad games, then there is no reason to make good games. Word of mouth may sink your cart, but by the time word of mouth gets around, you've already sold 50,000 carts, and made back what you spent creating the cart. Then all you have to do is churn out some new fancy art, spend a weekend programming, cannabalize all the carts from the last game that no distributor will buy, stick a new label on it, and send it out as a new crappy title that will sell maybe 45,000.
Today, like those old days, there is a "wild west" atmosphere in P2P MMOs. In fact, its worse than the old cart days. Not only is there no real incentive to produce a finished product, but MMO producers have convinced themselves that having a finished product is not necessary to make money, and that the consumer shouldn't expect a finished product. By the time the consumer realizes how bad the game really is, the producers already made enough in sub fees to let the customer go. What becomes more important is not to sell the game to the ones who already purchased it, but to sell the game to those that have not. Which means that the real money maker is not the game so much as the hype you can generate on sites like this one, or in the magazines, or on your website.
Now a lot has been said about startup costs being too high. I'd say this were true, if you had to distribute at Best Buy. You have to actually churn out disks, printing, and work within a distribution chain before you even make dime one. These days though, you have digital distribution. You don't have to pay anymore for printing costs, and you don't need a distributor to get it into the consumer's hands, all of which can be significant barriers to entry. However, we have to understand that while digital distribution emancipates the small developer, those same barriers that prevent small developers from entering the market also prevent scams, bad games, and hucksters from duping the marketplace.
Digital distribution and the birth of the unpackaged MMO means that even if you have a lousy game, you can still make a killing, as long as you dress it up real nice. I see the cases of Mourning, Dark and Light, and Horizons as the rule, rather than the exception. After all, if you can sell games, and maintain subscribers on the premise that it is acceptable to buy bad games, and that live teams will make them better, then there is no real reason for live teams to ever make them better. By the time consumers are fed up, you'll have made money for little more than server operation costs, and if your marketing is working, you'll have more replacements for whatever churn you generate.
In P2P, there is a potential to make astonishing amounts of money. If you sell a software product, then once the product is sold, that consumer is satisfied, and no more revenue will be forthcoming. Its hard for developers to get lines of credit, or to plan their growth when they sell products, because the first question from the banker will be, "you made a lot of money last quarter, but there is no reason your short term sales will continue." But MMOs are not consumer products, or commodities like other games. They are software services that have the potential to keep on generating revenue from a consumer long after they are "sold." You can walk into a bank, and answer your short term revenue projections easily when you sell a software service, as you can say, "we have x amount of subscribers, y degree of churn, a growth of z subscribers, and can estimate our income to be ___________." While it may not necessarily pan out that way in truth, it looks persuasive enough, because P2P, and even F2P MMOs are the, "games that keep on giving."
Now I assume that none of us here are "squeamish," about P2P MMOs. However, take for a moment to consider how very problematic MMOs really are from a consumer's perspective, and you might realize how very problematic this genre can be.
1) Consumers of MMOs are expected to pay money now for something that will become worthless at a time not of the consumer's choosing. It would be as if you bought a hamburger on the condition that you may or may not be able to finish it. That at any time, the cook could take away your hamburger whether you only had one bite, or finished the whole thing, based on factors wholly outside your control. You may want to play the software you purchased, but if the provider no longer offers the service, your original purchase is now worthless, unlike every other game that is unconnected to service availablity. You may not want to play Diablo II again, but if on any small chance you wanted to do so, you still have the disks to re-install and play it at a time of your choosing. Even if you wanted to play the Asheron's Call 2 you own, you cannot, because the Asheron's Call 2 service is discontinued at a time of their choosing, and not your own.
2) Consumers of MMOs are expected to pay a long term fee for a long term experience that has the promise of fun, but no guarantee it will be fun. It is as if you bought a seven course meal, but only know of the first course. You have no idea if you'll be full, or if you'll be sick, or if you'll want more after the second course, the third course, etc. You have no facts to go on, and no frame of reference, other than some mystical value of hope or faith that it will be good, but no actual guarantee that it will be good. Hardcoded games can be rented, played at the store, or borrowed. There is a lot more a consumer can do to understand what they are buying, because the item is a known quantity, unlike MMOs, which change too much for consumers to ever get a handle on them.
3) Consumers of MMOs pay for a specific experience, but the providers reserve the right to give them something wholly different than what the consumer originally paid for. This is the old SWG "New Game Enhancement" syndrome. You pay for a year in advance because you like the game, but the game changes into something you do not find acceptable, but the MMO provider does. This is almost the exact opposite of #1. The service continues, but it is no longer a service that is acceptable to the consumer, because it has changed into something the consumer would have never purchased, if they only knew. You don't have that problem with hardcoded games, which are much less expensive.
MMO providers have not seriously tackled these three, because they never really had to before. Maybe they weren't really all that serious, or they just believed that a greater acceptence by the consumer of the genre's shortcomings would come in time. However, when you see data like the poll made some time ago at Perpetual Entertainment's Star Trek Online site which asked consumers to cite the main reason they haven't tried an MMO previously, and 55% of them say that its "too expensive," it should not come as a suprise, like it did to Perperual. MMOs are not just expensive, the odds that you'll catch a bad MMO, or a scam, or pay too much for too little are high, and with the way this genre is working today, its only going to get worse.
To tell you the truth though, we might almost need to run this industry into the ground in order to change the way this industry works.
__________________________
"Its sad when people use religion to feel superior, its even worse to see people using a video game to do it."
--Arcken
"...when it comes to pimping EVE I have little restraints."
--Hellmar, CEO of CCP.
"It's like they took a gun, put it to their nugget sack and pulled the trigger over and over again, each time telling us how great it was that they were shooting themselves in the balls."
--Exar_Kun on SWG's NGE
And I think digital distribution can be a good thing. I think this can mean you won't have to sell your soul to large companies like SOE and EA in order to get your game out there. Just look at Valve and their service Steam as an example of getting idie developed games to a mainstream audience.
Of course there will always be developers that care more about making money first and a good game second. That's just the nature of the beast of video games or any other product for that matter.
MMO's will change their product over time, that's to be expected. But I don't pay for years worth of game time. One month at a time is what I always do. That way if I get bored of a game I can quit without feeling that I've thrown a lot of money away.
I hope that new dev's for upcoming online games try for more innovation and less imitation.
In my personal experience, all or nearly all of the WOW clone/killer topics are started by people that have extremely limited information on the game itself. People start looking at a game, see one or more features that bear some resemblance to something or another found in Warcraft, this combined with the additional trend of flaming everything in sight at the mere mention of the game leads to some unfortunate viewpoints.
Take Age of Conan for example, anyone that knows a good bit about the game should be able to easily see that it is niether a WOW clone nor its killer. Its going to end up a niche game targeted at a very different audience than WOW is, chances are it will be rather popular, but still a niche game. And yet the forums still gets the occaisional numbskull that can't get it out of their head that simply because this or that item is similar to a system found in WOW, that the entire game will be exactly like it.
No man is an island, entire of itself; every man is a piece of the continent, a part of the main. any man's death diminishes me, because I am involved in mankind, and therefore never send to know for whom the bell tolls; it tolls for thee.
Hemingway
Well, I have to disagree. I don't think roleplay and socializing makes a complex game.
I think a game that requires you to really think about what you are doing, makes a complex game. Like when your actions impact your character. Skill developement, attributes, the quest you do, faction, etc etc. Not a cookie cutter class that requires no thought, just swing your sword at mobs until the number next to your name reads "60".
Like EVE for example. It requires you to really plan ahead when developing your character. Same with AO and SWG precu. I'm sure Ryzom fits here too. These games require you to make a number of choices. I've even taken an hour to decide where to put a skill point into a skill, because the impact is that important.
If this bores you then fine.
I also disagree about only smart people try many game etc etc. I don't sit at home all day and get fat playing video games, hiding from real life people. I only have time for 1 game. That game should be meaningful and hold my interest. If I wanted to play a game that I can practically beat in 2 months, why don't I just play a console game? It's the same thing.
although, to be honest, i never was impressed with swg graphics. if uo updates their movement ingame and the graphics overhaul is GREAT... it could make a comeback, especially with the massive carebear zones.
bleh, it's just time for something new!!!
could we please get correspondent writers and moderators, on the eve forum at mmorpg.com, who are well-versed on eve-online and aren't just passersby pushing buttons? pretty please?
Anyways, about this subject, you just need to think of business. WoW has the second biggest player base over all of the MMORPGs. Lineage II is the biggest with 14 million players but has got that way after about 5 years or so. WoW is at 8 Million in 3 years and is constantly growing. WoW will be the biggest MMORPG in all of history.
Now, about MMORPG companys. The hard truth is that they don't care about their player base. A good example of this is SWG. They care about money. Big companies like Bioware and all the others talk about making games like WoW because well, they have too. The big companies need to make money, and copying a huge game is the best way to make money.
PS- Sorry for that little flame on Star Wars Galaxies, Im still an avid SWG player. :-)
- "If I understand you well, you are telling me until next time. " - Ren
/duel
BioWare care enough to know when to not listen and just make it great. Yes, they will take the good from WoW, just like a hunter who kill a prey will take meat, fur and the like. A barbarian girl wearing furs might be droolicious, while the bear was scarry.
I assume that BioWare will rock our world, better than WoW did...and I can't wait honestly! I could be wrong, like I was for DDO, but I am rather confident from what I read so far. Doesn't seem like they will enforce raiding, which is honestly a major aspect in itself.
- "If I understand you well, you are telling me until next time. " - Ren
You're all shooting to get the numbers WoW has. However, this is an unrealistic goal. Your target audience has already been captured. Designing a game similar to WoW will not earn you more money or potential subscribers because, in all honesty, it's already been done, and WoW probably did it better.
What devs are not considering at all is that there is a significantly larger audience that has been around for a much longer time. We crave something more, yet are being denied our wishes. I'll put my money and job on the line to say that the first developer to bring back the cores of MMORPG (role-playing, community, innovation) will capture for more attention than any Money-generating-WoW-wannabe ever will.
If any MMO company ever wants to hire a person, I've got an MMO all drawn out, quests, classes, races, PvP, and everything else. Betcha if I got picked up by a big-name company, mine would outsell WoW too.
Waiting for something fresh to arrive on the MMO scene...