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Taking the worst parts of previous MMO's?
Strycker
Member UncommonPosts: 110
Going over their FAQ, it seems like their making a few mistakes design-wise. They wanted to look back over the 2-generations of MMO's and build off of those, yet they mainly made a 1st generation MMO. Downtime in between battles, taking a large amount of time to find a group, etc - were the PLAGUES of games like Everquest.
They stated that they wanted to remove the tedium, yet I find, downtime in between battles especially, tedious as can be. Their reasons for it is the most outrageous thing I've ever heard = "Downtime should exist between battles to rest up, talk about the previous encounter, plan for the next one, use the restroom, grab a soda, etc"
Why? Isn't that the exact thing we've been trying to avoid for years? The whole sandwich logic (Sit down for health and go make a sandwich). For a game thats trying to immerse me, and is offering such a rich world, why make me sit around bored in it?
Then the 2nd plague comes to mind, spending hours finding a silly group. Not only do you have to find a group for a quest like in various other MMO's, you have to find a group full of people flagged for that exact step of the quest your on. However, I didn't truly understand how integral questing is going to be in Vanguard, so I'll cut them some slack on that for now. Either way, waiting for a group, similar to that of resting in between battles, is extremely tedious and isn't FUN! The fun factor is what it comes down to in the end.
They should of looked back at Ultima Online, which had further depth then EQ ever did, yet lacked all of the tedium. Ultima Online is the game that Vanguard is actually trying to be. Open world, death penalties, and dungeon crawling.
They stated that they wanted to remove the tedium, yet I find, downtime in between battles especially, tedious as can be. Their reasons for it is the most outrageous thing I've ever heard = "Downtime should exist between battles to rest up, talk about the previous encounter, plan for the next one, use the restroom, grab a soda, etc"
Why? Isn't that the exact thing we've been trying to avoid for years? The whole sandwich logic (Sit down for health and go make a sandwich). For a game thats trying to immerse me, and is offering such a rich world, why make me sit around bored in it?
Then the 2nd plague comes to mind, spending hours finding a silly group. Not only do you have to find a group for a quest like in various other MMO's, you have to find a group full of people flagged for that exact step of the quest your on. However, I didn't truly understand how integral questing is going to be in Vanguard, so I'll cut them some slack on that for now. Either way, waiting for a group, similar to that of resting in between battles, is extremely tedious and isn't FUN! The fun factor is what it comes down to in the end.
They should of looked back at Ultima Online, which had further depth then EQ ever did, yet lacked all of the tedium. Ultima Online is the game that Vanguard is actually trying to be. Open world, death penalties, and dungeon crawling.
Comments
One question!
How are you supposed to find a group instantly? I don't think you press a button and it automatically invites 5 random PCs into your group LOL. finding groups will take some time, which will probably easier than in WoW sense wow laked any decent LFG tool. Plus you can also solo in VG. but still finding a group is going to take a few minutes at the least... for any game. so as far as that question i don't really understand.
however, one the first i can see where you may be right. the thing with that one is "how much downtime will their reallly be? " I mean 2min. , 5min., and 10-20min. is a huge difference. and of course everyone will have a different opinion on this. obviously their are people who like longer downtimes, sounds wierd but people actually do, thats why not every game will appeal to everyone.
Of course from what i've heard, alot has chaged through beta and the FAQ is outdated... so who knows what is to expect come january when the real info starts coming in.
Current MMO of interest: Vanguard: Saga of Heroes
MMO background: EQ, UO, AO, SWG, PS, EQ2, L2,EQoA, WoW, WWIIO, and AC2
LFG: /tell LFG this and that quest. This is how LFG works. I fear there will be many people spending alot of time finding a group. Specially at later levels, and if the game doesn't get very popular. I guess a guild will be a must.
Current MMO of interest: Vanguard: Saga of Heroes
MMO background: EQ, UO, AO, SWG, PS, EQ2, L2,EQoA, WoW, WWIIO, and AC2
well one thing to remember as far as downtime goes...As far as this game is concerned; You are probably going to need it!! lol It's not going to be like WoW and EQ2 where you can just slice through 200 mobs in about 20 minutes..which in my oppinion can be every bit as boring as waiting and preparing for those fewer yet more difficult battles. I don't see where something like that actually plaqued EQ1, after all aren't they getting ready to make their 14 or 15th expansion?
The mobs in this game are going to be tough from what I have read..more like EQ1..which I like...cause each one seems more ominous and dangerous..and down right fatal if you pull too many...so in turn you have to work together more often as a team, along with that it means healers will probably need to rest along with the mezzers of the group. The pace might seem slower for those that are used to WoW and EQ2, but I enjoyed the pace of EQ1. And I am glad that Brad has stated that they don't plan on changing it. If it's not for you it's not for you.
You snipped out part of the answer. Here Ill quote the whole thing so you can understand:
16.8 How do you feel about downtime in general?
So there will be some downtime, but not too much. Even wow has some downtime.
There are players, like myself, that like to play in groups. IMO a well organized group is what makes an MMORPG fun. Obviously you do not like to play in groups, because you described them as "silly". It's not so much the downtime waiting for a group, but the fact that you don't really like playing in groups in the first place.
The problem is that you cannot make a game that's perfect for group players and solo players. If you can easily solo the game, and almost all the content can be done solo, there's no reason to group because you waste so much time forming a group that you'd fall far behind the solo player. In such a game, even I would play solo, which I don't really like to do.
The best you can do is give solo players content they can do and still level, although much slower than in a group. That's if you want to make a game group players will like.
If you want to make a game solo players will like, that's easy. Just make all the content so it can be played solo. That' the WoW game for levels 1-60, and that's the biggest reason I didn't play WoW for more than the free month. Many games will be like WoW in the future, so you should be able to find plenty of MMORPGs that enable solo play. It's more likely that I will have a harder time finding MMORPGs that encourage group play.
As far as downtime goes, there's a fine line between to little and to much. To little, and there's no time for socializing while you are leveling. That is, working on something at the same time you are chatting. A good example is traveling. You are accomplishing something, getting from point a to point b, but at the same time you can socialize. Gamers don't like to stop playing the game to socialize because they feel like they are wasting time, so it's nice to socialize while you play.
Everquest had to much downtime, and the developers of Vangaurd admit that in the FAQ. There was so much downtime you got bored. However, IMO, although City of Heroes is fun to play, there's to little downtime. It's just furious button mashing, some talk like "mez that ad" or "heal the tank" and then rush to the next fight. No time to chat, and MMORPGs are social games. That's what keeps people playing them for so long. So while CoH was a fun game, it didn't hold my attention for very long. That's why some downtime is needed, but it has to be just the right amount.
MMORPG Maker
Good observations and questions, OP. I wonder the same. Since I am not in beta all my knowledge is FAQs, interviews, videos and whatever comments.
What I do see so far is, that Vanguard indeed tries to decelerated the MMO. In the videos I saw battles with a single mob took very long compared to any MMO I ever played (which were quite many). While I know (and mostly agree) that some MMO players do not like too fast paced combat - for many reasons - I feel a too slow combat takes away the "heroic feeling" where you really see and feel your impact. I don't need to hack my way in a Diablo-esque fashion, but hacking 10-15 minutes over every mob and then 5 min downtime sounds exactly like EQ1 was. (At least in that late phase I played it.) Acutally I prefer NO downtime at all, if I drink and eat or something like that. I dont want to sit even 1 or 2 minutes. For what? I mean, I want to dive into a world, forget the surrounding and fight my way through some dungeon, forest, whatever, making some real progress and not sit down every few minutes.
The other thing, which I am much mores sceptical is, finding a group. I love grouping. Going out with a good group and killing stuff sounds like a pretty good evening to me, and I guess to quite a lot of MMO player. Now I hear there is guided questing. You stay in one area in a certain level range, guided from location to location and get most XP from quests. Now, recently I am mostly playing EQ2, and since the new addon Echoes of Faydwer came, the EQ2 world got quite big. And: not all areas can be reached by quick travel. In fact EQ2 is now a lot like the idea of Vanguard sounds like: you have to travel manually to most places. The result is, iviting ppl from the other end of the world can take EONS until the finally arrive - when all too often one or two other group member had enough and went away. So the search for a complete group started anew.
It feels very tiresome at some evenings, and all I hear from Vangzuard - MUCH bigger world, even less fast travel - sounds like a ticket to hell if you try to find a group. NOT to speak of the fact, that since all races start in some entirely different area, either all your friends start with the same race, or you can forget meeting them for quite a long time.
Plus: since there are no "safe ways" through the regions (as in most EQ2 or WOW zones), you can expect anyone riding to you through half of the world will supposedly die 3-4 times before he even reaches you, when he/she is SO frustrated that he/she logs off.
IMVPO the non-fun times need to be SHORTER compared to the existing MMOs to make Vanguard a real 3rd Gen game, not LONGER. For most ppl fun is questing and combat. That is what 90% of MMO gamers want to do 80-90% of the time. While other things may also be fun from time to time (exploring, harvesting, diplomacy), all those nifty little stuff) most would want to do them when they DECIDE to, not forced because there is wait, wait, wait...
Simply said, I want to log in with my "hero" get into a group and kill some stuff for a few hours. Sounds like simple interest, but I guess I am in a vast majority with that idea. Everything that interrupts that (travel, downtime...) is just needless non-fun time killer for me.
People don't ask questions to get answers - they ask questions to show how smart they are. - Dogbert
Gillvane1 - I think that most people who "don't like playing in a group" have reasons why they don't like them, and the OP pointed some of them out well. I love playing MMOs in groups, but I don't like the problems that I face whenever a game forces grouping.
Here are the 3 major barriers to grouping:
1. Time - Waiting for the group to form and get together.
2. Availability - Matching up players who are of similar level, close by in the game world, of complimentary classes, and working on the same quests is incredibly difficult and tedious. Oh, and don't forget that all of these people also have real lives and have to use the restroom and eat, etc. on occasion too. This means that even after you get a great group together, you might run one quest and then will probably be BACK to finding a replacement (or replacements) after you lose a member.
3. Behavioral Problems - Dealing with bad group members that can cause group wipes or who are just annoying.
So far, I haven't seen Vanguard come up with answers for any of these problems. In fact, they are making a game that is modeled after 1st Generation MMOs where these problems were rampant due to many of the game design choices they are making: 1) A large, but often empty (content thin) world where travel times are made artificially longer; 2) Strict death penalties that make people more likely to /ignore and blacklist players that are learning; and 3) Content that can be gated to certain classes or by the need to have advanced skill in diplomacy.
Vanguard is going to be interesting. It seems like it is going to be a fairly high quality hardcore MMO. I think that it will steal a lot of the subscribers of EQ and EQ II from those games and will be financially successful even though it will seem like a failure compared to the total numbers of subscribers gained by upcoming MMOs like Gods and Heroes, Age of Conan, and Warhammer Online. The requirement to group and the difficulty of setting up groups will probably be the number one reason for people not playing the game. Some players will leave because of death penalties (especially the corpse runs where you lose your items), but I think the "hardcore" line is really drawn in the sand between games that force grouping and those that do not.
Btw, if you put the good rewards in group-dependent content, you are forcing grouping. Likewise, if you put the good rewards in raiding, you are forcing raiding. People want to succeed and not just a little bit. Having some solo content will make the game more palatable to hardcore gamers who want to do a little adventuring when their set group isn't on, but it won't satisfy the mainstream gamer.
Maby not much to most of the WoW ADD pples that area all about the fast pace constant killing. The most i miss about the old eq , and im talking back when u still had to look at the spell book to med. Even from the last phase of beta. I miss just sitting ina group talking about the day. Actually having a conversation while were camping say the GR in blackburrow. Instead of the constant heal tank..... mez add....... take out caster..... rince repeat convesations of today.
Yes to most people see the not instant travel of Old eq as a tedious time sink to me i loved it. I love the fact that it took about 30 mins to run from queynos to freeport. I rmemeber the first time i tried to make the run it took me all day. I died 9 times tring to get to HHP.Thats not even to mention that the first 2 times i actually made it through HP to Kithor it was night time..... lol anyway. I think Luclin and POP ruined that game for me. The insta travel click the book your there crap or just ride a spire. They even took out the boats lol that was one of the most fun things i could do.
When kunark came out i dont know how many countelss hours i spent in front of the sunark fort in LOIO with a group camping the front ent. We talked about everything from polotics to what we did that day. You just cant do that in games like wow. I know i ramble but i guess im saying the main point is that most of the old school eq uo maby not daoc maby ac players will like this to some extent almot more than wow. I predict that wow wont loose much of there playerbase but they will loose lots of the old schoolers that are just there to be there. Then again the game could just tank.!!
PS cant spell not an english major youll live
god yo ujust brought back so many good memories just then lol...remember when people would be packed to the rafters in OASIS and some NUT would pull the spectres or worse a sand giant..and everything would go to hell...I remember the first time someone yelled "watch out..Specs are loose" and I'm thinking "I should be ok where Im at"..I turn around and theres this grim reaper figure with a huge scythe..takes me out in like 1 hit since they quad hit anyway lol...scared the crap out of me but that was one of the first moments that I learned to RESPECT certain mobs and zones.
Guess that is why I'm hoping Vanguard brings some of that intensity back...that feeling of "crap I rrrreally hope this monk knows what the hell he's doing when pulling" lol those were fun times.
I just love all the hardcore gamer responses that romanticize time-sinks. The problem with this is that most MMO players either don't have nostalgia for time-sinks because they never played EQ, or they hated them in EQ (or some other first generation MMO), or their nostalgia won't hold up under the actual frustration when there will be so many other MMO options that won't require wasting the player's time.
That's not to say that there won't be hardcore gamers that like this stuff. I think there are a lot of EQ players who have never made it into WoW or other 2nd generation MMOs and can't make a comparison. There are also quite a few hardcore gamers who honestly like this stuff.
It's just funny to me how the stuff that you romanticize as super-fun is the stuff that convinced me to go play games that don't require huge timesinks.
I think there is good downtime, and there is bad downtime.
If you fight well, there should be very little downtime - like WoW, but without even the need to sit down. But if you screw up, then you should have a significant downtime - like old-school EQ; a timeout to let you think about what you did wrong.
The problem is that EQ "punished" you even if you played well. And WoW is like an arcade game; it doesn't punish you for anything short of dying - and even that is pretty mild.
In a "real" fight, people don't just whittle each other down at a steady rate. Usually, whoever wins - WINS; he doesn't end up half dead, or even a quarter dead; he doesn't lose much more than sweat. And if you're playing well, that's the way most MMORPG fights should end up: all you need is to catch your breath. "Injury" (requiring a few minutes downtime) should be the punishment for most things that go wrong. This would allow death to work the way it should; the way it is in real life: very painful, but very RARE - it shouldn't happen unless you've royally screwed up or kept going long past when you should have. Because when you think about it, death is the most non-immersive thing that could possibly happen in an MMORPG. Personally, I can accept almost anything: elves with jet packs, dwarves with skateboards, whatever, it's just a question of suspending disbelief. But if you don't care about "the big D", then there is no possible connection to reality.
Social downtime should be a separate issue from "punishment" downtime. In EQ, it seemed like there every party had a nuke-happy player who demand you wait five minutes after what should have been a trivial fight for him to med to full. WoW can be a bit draining because the action never stops. Again, I think it's possible to have the best of both worlds.
Like having to make camp in real life, social breaks should be on a fairly flexible schedule. SWG tried to implement something like this with their "combat fatigue." (Unfortunately most people's idea of recuperation does not involve going to bars to watch female impersonators dance.) There should be convenient "camps" where it is best (but not vital) to take these rests. And the social rests should provide an in-game excuse for a break of say 10-12 minutes every couple of hours or so, with everyone knowing exactly how long it will last beforehand. Maybe you'd need a lookout. And there should be some built-in procedure for "breaking camp." If somebody was a little late getting back, it would be a minor faux pas, but it wouldn't completely stop the game.
The three problems you listed have no solutions. It's simply part of grouping. Do you think a game developer can write code that gets rid of rude or incompetent players that you might group with? That's simply unrealistic.
You said putting good rewards in group-dependent content forces grouping. Well, then the opposite is true as well. Putting good rewards in solo content, forces solo play , especially since it takes so much time to form groups. That's really my point. You cannot design a game which is perfect for both types of play, so design play for one type, and put a little something in for the otehr type. If you want a solo game, but give me the "option" to group, I'm not going to group because it simply wont' be worth it, so I'm not playing that game. If the rewards are in the group-dependent content you won't play the game. So, we need different games to play, nothing wrong with that.
I have no desire to put forced grouping into the WoW 1-60 game. People like playing that game solo, which is fine. I also have no desire to play that game. If I find a game that's fun to group in, I don't expect solo players to like it. That should be fine too.
I think of MMORPGs like checkers. Sure, I could play by myself and make moves for both sides, but where's the fun in that? I'd rather play the game with someone else, and if there's no one to play the game with I'll have to do something else.
I played wow for all of about a month when it released. The time it took me to get a 60 hunter and do some of the "Uber" Raids. I can see why people play it. No downtime what so ever constant killing. Nothing to do once you get to the end either heck you dont even know the people y ou guild with because the time youve spent with there guild the extent of your conversation is limited to . kill add.....heal tank... pull mob.
Lots of people dint like the downtime in eq, but they faild to realize that if you had a decent puller or decent CC then the downtime was really minimal for the gruop. back when Kunark first came out i had one of the best groups at the sunark fort ( yes yes the sunark fort )we chained pulled mobs for 9 hours. We had less than a minute between each kill. The only people that had downtime were the casters , and they fixed that by o say medding through the next fight so they could help on the next. So Constant action can be defined by what role you want to play in the group. If your a caster you should expect to go forever and have insta regen of your mana/hp like in wow ( well almost insta ), likewise if your a tank you should expect it either unless you have a healer around that knows what hes/shes doing.
Well I'll admit..at the time it was either that or UO which was my first mmo game..but EQ1 was so fresh and new for it's time that even sitting and waiting for mana to regen wasn't an issue. And honestly, not many players..that I knew of anyway, ever complained about it. In fact I normally didn't see people start to drop off until they were about lvl 50 or higher..not because of the time sink thing, but mainly due to the notorious grind that ensued.
I've played just about any mmo (other than all the sporatic korean games that come out once every 5 minutes) including WoW and currently EQ2. I understand why they are so popular..there is basically no learning for WoW..you can jump right into it, and it doesn't take a beast of a rig to run it. EQ2 is popular alternative because peeps either don't like WoW and left or simply because of it's name. But for me both of these games had a flaw that was already mentioned...yeah it was fun for the first few levels to just run through as a group and slay stuff left and right without breathing...but I began to notice the absence of socializing....everyon is quietly hacking and casting away, doing their thing. I always thought there was something..not right about that.
One thing I loved about EQ1 and hated about EQ2 and WoW and probably won't be thrilled to see it in Vanguard..was you are basically let around by the hand to each quest...Hey! Don't have a quest?? Well just look around a second and look for the exclamation mark over someone's head and your good to go....I hate that system. That was the beauty of EQ1, you didn't know who had a quest until you..gulp..interacted with them and talked to them...and even then you didn't know what the reward was until you finished..which was very exciting!!!
But as you said, its stuff that takes time is what drove you away...hey, to each their own..but I support Brad when he said he's making this game to NOT be like WoW..if you want fast fighting, lvling, and loot...you might want to stay with what you are playing now..cause HOPEFULLY
, if he's true to his word...he's not gonna change it just to make a few people who want it to be WoW happy...and THANK GOD TOO! He sees what has happened to the modern mmo market and realizes theres MORE than enough "training wheel mmos" out there..This hopefully will not become one of those...I support challenge and difficulty!
Well I'll admit..at the time it was either that or UO which was my first mmo game..but EQ1 was so fresh and new for it's time that even sitting and waiting for mana to regen wasn't an issue. And honestly, not many players..that I knew of anyway, ever complained about it. In fact I normally didn't see people start to drop off until they were about lvl 50 or higher..not because of the time sink thing, but mainly due to the notorious grind that ensued.
I've played just about any mmo (other than all the sporatic korean games that come out once every 5 minutes) including WoW and currently EQ2. I understand why they are so popular..there is basically no learning for WoW..you can jump right into it, and it doesn't take a beast of a rig to run it. EQ2 is popular alternative because peeps either don't like WoW and left or simply because of it's name. But for me both of these games had a flaw that was already mentioned...yeah it was fun for the first few levels to just run through as a group and slay stuff left and right without breathing...but I began to notice the absence of socializing....everyon is quietly hacking and casting away, doing their thing. I always thought there was something..not right about that.
One thing I loved about EQ1 and hated about EQ2 and WoW and probably won't be thrilled to see it in Vanguard..was you are basically let around by the hand to each quest...Hey! Don't have a quest?? Well just look around a second and look for the exclamation mark over someone's head and your good to go....I hate that system. That was the beauty of EQ1, you didn't know who had a quest until you..gulp..interacted with them and talked to them...and even then you didn't know what the reward was until you finished..which was very exciting!!!
But as you said, its stuff that takes time is what drove you away...hey, to each their own..but I support Brad when he said he's making this game to NOT be like WoW..if you want fast fighting, lvling, and loot...you might want to stay with what you are playing now..cause HOPEFULLY
, if he's true to his word...he's not gonna change it just to make a few people who want it to be WoW happy...and THANK GOD TOO! He sees what has happened to the modern mmo market and realizes theres MORE than enough "training wheel mmos" out there..This hopefully will not become one of those...I support challenge and difficulty!
I often wonder if we can ever achieve that same fealing that we used to get from playing EQ1. I logged back into eq after being gone for almost 4 years now and couldn't play for an hour before being bored.I guess for some of us Vanguard is our last shot at recreating those feelings we used to get while being scared sh**less while running through Kithicor at level 12. Anyway I have high hopes for Vanguard. If it is a WoW or EQ2 clone I'll prob fade out of the MMORG industry and actually live my life in the real world (scary).
Wah, Wah, Wah, I can't get to level 70 in a week etc etc. I'm so sick of posts like these. This game has downtime, penalties etc and its not a bad thing. If you don't like it, go back to WoW. SWG was totally ruined by whiners (and SOE) and there are plenty of easy MMOs out there that you can play. I can already see Vanguard being ruined by these whiners. God forbid they can't have every uber item in the game 10 minutes after subscribing.
S
I agree..this will be my last run at it right here..If its challenging and dangerous enough to make me feel "yyyyeaaah..I remember this feeling" then Im good to go...if it's not or heck if it is but do to player bitching wanting it to be easier and they start changing it like EQ2 has been changed so many times..then I'm done. Cause I look at it like this, if you want easy or want something with hardly any down time..why aren't you playing the games out there that are already like that? Why must you come to this game and want the EXACT same thing for this one?? Just want a new world to solo 1-60 in 5 days?
That's why I got so much hope fo this one, cause Brad Mcqaid has stated that this will be a challenging group oriented game..yes you have to go get your corpse and yes if you dont have another suit of armor in the bank that means your running back naked. People looked down on that mechanic, but those that are intelligent REALIZE there is a reason for things like that to be in game. For one, you learn to respect certain areas...you're too scared shitless to mess up or take a fight off while in a a group..its intense..and you learnhow to survive together. I've played EQ2 and WoW and truthfully, in some of the fights I was in, it was like "wow I don;'t even need to do much here, I could just stand completely still and because every other class is so self sufficient they are gonna kill it for me"...you could NOT do that in EQ1..Every class was so unique and brought something great to the group that it was VITAL that you do your part. Cleric's had to be awake and not in 'tell hell'..DPS classes had to learn to assist the tank so the mezzer could do crowd control. And EVERYONE loved a bard once they obtained mana song lol. In games like EQ2, it doesn't matter as much if you break a mezz or don't heal as much..BECAUSE..there isn't much downtime while at rest anyway, and eventually everything is dead in record time. It's like why even give the Enchanter's in EQ2 mezz spells to begin with? Take those out and just give them some more damage spells cause obviously breaking a mezz doesn't mean certain death like it does in EQ1 or will in Vanguard.
People seem to think we like time-sinks just because we like time-sinks lol..which is very laughable..we understand the strategy and the tactics involved in have things like that in a game. But if it pans out to be a 'training wheel mmo' which I don't think it will thank god, but if it ever does, then I'm done with mmo's and will just get a 360 or something lol.
In total agreement. I don't understand why these people aren't playing one of the MANY "training wheel MMOs". They always show up to complain that everything is too hard and takes too long. Like yourself, I prefer a game that has consequences and forces people to learn their characters. Games like WoW and EQ2 are geared towards casual gamers and thats fine. SWG was a great example of a hardcore MMO until it was sabotaged by whiners and SOE. I am enjoying Vanguard immensely and again, like yourself, I would be very saddened if it was turned into a "training wheel" MMO by these people who want everything yesterday. I find that type of game boring and without a soul. Its rewarding to have to work for things within a game, and a dangerous place, like Kithicor at night in EQ1, is respected. No place scares me in EQ2 because with repair kits you can stay in any instance endlessly until you beat it. Its very simplistic and it doesn't really require you to think.
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Unrest was one of my favorite zones. I remember the first time i made it to that zone and i looked up at the top of the mansion and thought wow thats cool. Then of corse all i saw in chat was TRAIN!!!! lol some of the best times i had in eq were running from or helping to take out or just waiting around for trains to go back to there spawn points.
It takes stuff like that to make a game great. Or how Everfrost actually felt like a barren frozen wasteland. I dont know how it did it but eq1 was the best at captureing that immersion. Games just cant do that now days for some reason. I mean if u look at most of the games now days you cant even train if you were tring to do it intentionally.
I think what i miss them most about eq is that you never really knew what was going to happen each and every time you went into a zone. you could go into a zone a hundred times , but you never really knew what would happen this time......
In my opinion, the reason why most of these mmo's that are out now are so boring is..they worry more about catering to the player than taking a risk..I remember when EQ1 was in beta, EVERY GAME MAG imaginable came out with things like "it'll either be really successfull or a complete failure"..mmo makers just dont wanna take any risks to make a game challenging or hard because they worry about how negative their forums are going to look. Most game makers see what has worked for WoW and don't really want to mess that chemistry..it makes casual gamers happy, which are the majority..it makes money.
I applaud games like Vanguard that come right out and say "Hey, this is going to be tough, if you don't think this will be casual enough for you, then you might want to seek another game." I LOVE THAT lol...not enough people in this world take certain stands anymore...everything has to be shades of grey or instant gratification...I remember how fun it was to craft my first set of banded armor for my warrior...Players were lined up trying to get that stuff..no stat boosts, just better than what they had. The steady and not overdone progression it what helped give you this REAL powerfull feeling when you got high level. Seeing a Necro's pet take down a Sand Giant in Oasis absolutely stunned me.
This game is taking a risk, as it is apparent, that some casual gamers want to play it but they don't want it to be the way it is going to be...and I hope Brad stands his ground on this and keeps it tough and rewarding...The "take the easy road" gamers have their own games..let this be the one where being lvl 15 with a basic suit of iron armor actually feels kinda nice, knowing that bigger and better things are waaaay down the road if you work for them.
That was a great thing about EQ. Night was night and things changed accordingly. Kithicor at night was awesome. If you were travelling through there and it started to get dark, you knew you were in for it. I liked the fact that EQ was DARK at night. There were a lot of places you just couldn't go without a torch because you couldn't see 2 feet in front of you. Like you said, you really felt like you were there and that there was something at stake.
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As you have said, there are plenty of games for casual gamers. I am very happy that Sigil are breaking the mould of current MMOs. I played WoW for about 2 weeks and I thought it was appauling. There was absolutely no challenge at all and I hate that graphics style. It looks like the Smurfs. I didnt start going on the WoW forums and telling Blizzard to make the game harder etc, I simply cancelled my subscription because I knew it wasn't for me. That's what people who don't like Vanguard need to be doing. Don't bitch and moan and try to ruin it for others, simply cancel your subscription and move along.
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