Actually, if you don't use voicechat, then you are inferior to players who use it. That's why guilds that focus on raiding or PvP (the most challenging IN-GAME tasks in MMOs) tend to require it. I'd even want it in a game that requires more medding because it is still more efficient and I get better socialization.
A tank can't hit his skills to keep the main pull on him while telling the back-up tank to get an add that he has spotted. If you are running along through an area and someone is about to run over a cliff or into an epic spawn, you can't type Stop!!! emphatically enough to get everyone to stop within the 3 seconds you have before the group gets wiped. I could go on and on with examples of how this effects gameplay and socialization (hearing people's tone allows you to know what they are saying is funny whereas it might read as simply silly if you typed it).
Still, if you don't want to use voice chat then that's your decision. I just wanted to point out to you some reasons why it is superior to text-chat.
Actually, if you don't use voicechat, then you are inferior to players who use it. That's why guilds that focus on raiding or PvP (the most challenging IN-GAME tasks in MMOs) tend to require it. I'd even want it in a game that requires more medding because it is still more efficient and I get better socialization.
A tank can't hit his skills to keep the main pull on him while telling the back-up tank to get an add that he has spotted. If you are running along through an area and someone is about to run over a cliff or into an epic spawn, you can't type Stop!!! emphatically enough to get everyone to stop within the 3 seconds you have before the group gets wiped. I could go on and on with examples of how this effects gameplay and socialization (hearing people's tone allows you to know what they are saying is funny whereas it might read as simply silly if you typed it).
Still, if you don't want to use voice chat then that's your decision. I just wanted to point out to you some reasons why it is superior to text-chat.
You seem to have a knack of accusing some of us of mounting an "erroneous argument" because you don't happen to agree with what some of us are saying. I would point out that your POV is not necessarily the "right" one. If I were you I would stick to WoW. Vanguard is not a game you will enjoy based on the things you are saying. And as far as the voice chat thing goes, it's got nothing to do with inferiority. I get a headache when I've been on voice comms for too long, it's also unimmersive when you can hear someone's baby crying in the background etc. In some cases I would rather be subjected to the flames of hell than use TS (especially when you have 20 or 30 people all trying to talk at the same time).
If you had experienced the kind of socialization we are talking about, you would instantly understand it, but because you come from a game that is based on "teh ub3r twink" and "I pwned j00" and (Leeeeeerrroooooyyyyy Jeeeeeeennnnnnnkiiiiiiiiiinnnnssss), I don't expect you to understand the nuances of proper in-game communication. I'm not being nasty, just pointing out that you have to have experienced the things we are talking about here to be able empathize and you won't experience these aspects of MMO gameplay in WoW. It just was not developed with that in mind. It's the McDonalds of MMOs (Millions served with generic content)
I group with the same people all the time in the MMO world and I never need voice comms to do raids/instances. We have played together long enough to know that one must manage DPS, allow hate gain et al. Thats what comes of building up alliances through communication that exists in down time/travelling. I have no need to talk to them on voice whatsoever. We know the instance/RZ and we know how to play our characters.
@Peacedog : Thank GOD or whoever (I'm not religious) Sigil does not think the same way you do. You can keep your "revolutionary" MMO /vomits
Actually, if you don't use voicechat, then you are inferior to players who use it. That's why guilds that focus on raiding or PvP (the most challenging IN-GAME tasks in MMOs) tend to require it. I'd even want it in a game that requires more medding because it is still more efficient and I get better socialization.
A tank can't hit his skills to keep the main pull on him while telling the back-up tank to get an add that he has spotted. If you are running along through an area and someone is about to run over a cliff or into an epic spawn, you can't type Stop!!! emphatically enough to get everyone to stop within the 3 seconds you have before the group gets wiped. I could go on and on with examples of how this effects gameplay and socialization (hearing people's tone allows you to know what they are saying is funny whereas it might read as simply silly if you typed it).
Still, if you don't want to use voice chat then that's your decision. I just wanted to point out to you some reasons why it is superior to text-chat.
again..I never had any problems lol..And I was a raid puller for a major guild on my server..I don't know what to say, I'm glad the new headsets make it easier on you guys hehe..I understand where its more efficient..that goes without saying..like comparing a bicycle to a car..but even though one is slower that the other, you still get to point B with both. I see what you mean about it taking longer to get things across in chat, but even in some of the best groups and raids..I never had a problem...and neither did the guild because they never expressed interest into going to it. Not afraid to use one...I just don't need one..I could line up side by side with you in Plane of Time, you on a headset running a guild and me in text running a guild..and I feel confident enough to say I could smoke you as far as efficiency of the raid..and I know I could pull just as fast. As I said, I tried EQ2 with Ventrillo on a decent guild..and besides hearing other people's groups..the ones I were actually in that were using it, I'd hear "mob behind you!!"..everyone turns around in unison then the mental motor begins and actions ensue...I got a hotkey that says "Add" in chat...lets see...you press a button to talk, utter three words, then begin action...I press one button, then begin action. Funny, I don't FEEL inferior if that's the golden rule lol.
If you had experienced the kind of socialization we are talking about, you would instantly understand it, but because you come from a game that is based on "teh ub3r twink" and "I pwned j00" and (Leeeeeerrroooooyyyyy Jeeeeeeennnnnnnkiiiiiiiiiinnnnssss), I don't expect you to understand the nuances of proper in-game communication. I'm not being nasty, just pointing out that you have to have experienced the things we are talking about here to be able empathize and you won't experience these aspects of MMO gameplay in WoW. It just was not developed with that in mind. It's the McDonalds of MMOs (Millions served with generic content)
Wow that was hateful. And wrong.
I've played at least 90% of every MMO ever made and that includes a great number of the crazy independent games like Seed, train wrecks like Horizons, and many of the extremely niche Eastern MMOs. I've also played many group-dependent, harsh death penalty MMOs because that's all that was available in the first generation of MMOs, and I even played FF XI (arguably a 2nd generation MMO though it also had long travel times, group dependency, and harsh death penalties).
Back in the day when you used to sit in place and med between pulls and grind together in groups, there was some degree of socializing, but not very much honestly as even back then you only had about a minute until your healer and mages gained back MP. However, you still couldn't talk as much as you can and as easily while using Teamspeak. . . If you joined a channel with 20 people talking over each other then you should move to another channel (or, if it is for a raid, then you need to change to an adult guild where people are polite enough to not talk over each other -except for the raid leader who can interrupt to give directives or call for silence during difficult pulls and boss battles, etc.) Also, if people have babies screaming in the background then you are in a guild that doesn't require that people use push-to-talk (VERY important).
Play with voice-chat in a good guild for a month and you'll recognize that it is better both for running groups and socializing. That's why serious raid and PvP guilds require it. You've obviously never been that successful in any of the games you've played past the first generation if you refuse to use voice chat.
Back in the day when you used to sit in place and med between pulls and grind together in groups, there was some degree of socializing, but not very much honestly as even back then you only had about a minute until your healer and mages gained back MP. However, you still couldn't talk as much as you can and as easily while using Teamspeak. . . If you joined a channel with 20 people talking over each other then you should move to another channel (or, if it is for a raid, then you need to change to an adult guild where people are polite enough to not talk over each other -except for the raid leader who can interrupt to give directives or call for silence during difficult pulls and boss battles, etc.) Also, if people have babies screaming in the background then you are in a guild that doesn't require that people use push-to-talk (VERY important).
Play with voice-chat in a good guild for a month and you'll recognize that it is better both for running groups and socializing. That's why serious raid and PvP guilds require it. You've obviously never been that successful in any of the games you've played past the first generation if you refuse to use voice chat.
I will advocate the main argument why peoples would tell you voice-chat is inferior:
It bring lag.
Lag kills group. Of course, there is a choice to make, do you prefer to lag and socialise more or you prefer to have a cleaner gaming experience and less socialisation?
The main troubles with voice chat will always be: LAG.
Also, voice-chat tend to allow easy talking to everyone, while lack of it usually leave it to the cleric. What is better, to have everyone talking or to have the cleric been having 50% of the options to talk as he have to med anyway, and can type quite well while medding.
- "If I understand you well, you are telling me until next time. " - Ren
well in the end, we can debate the features until the moon turns green..but in the end it is comforting to know that no matter how much you complain..WoW has already been created and this game isn't gonna be made into that because people feel it is too harsh or too group oriented. I like Brad's stance on it, and if you have failed to read it time and time again, its quite simple..This may not be the game for you. I love the fact that it almost seems like if you protest enough and condemn the game's fate as a success that some dev is gonna hear you and start making WoWVanguard. And I love that that is not going to happen. It's going to be tougher, regardless of whether you think it is wrong as to WHY it is tough (CR runs-exp loss-long traveling-not being able to solo past lvl 10). And the simple society that thinks getting a smack on the wrist when you die is the worst that needs to happen to them in WoW will be excited to know that WoW has an expansion coming out!!! So go play it!! Enjoy it!!!..shoo...git
If this game fails it wont be due to weak willed people complaining about the penalties..it'll be due to buggy quests and not being stable as an engine...if it can pull those things off without a hitch, it'll do just fine
With raid-free servers, it would be just perfect and sweet. Without raid-free servers; indeed it isn't a game for me. Yet, it isn't too late to bring raid-free server at release. I honestly hope that the folk(s) at Sigil will come to their senses and make raid-free servers, just like EQ mades PvE servers in it time.
EQ was successfull because of PvE servers. Vanguard need such an edge, atm it doesn't have it. Raid-free server could be that edge...
- "If I understand you well, you are telling me until next time. " - Ren
well from what I've read they talked as if it was going to concentrate more on the group experience..thats not to say they won't add raid stuff later..but I took it as mainly just groups, which Im fine either way really..as long as they keep it tough..Cause 1. I like it that way and 2. For some reason it keeps the WoWsers in a frenzy for some reason..which is comical and providing good entertainment right along with watching the Sugar Bowl tonight lol
I could talk all day about the things I have read that I agree and disagree with, but from a gamer's perspective that enjoys the idea of truly investing into a game but doesn't HAVE 60 hours a week to spend playing a game, (nor will I ever, hopefully...) this is my opinion. Being able to socialize ingame should not mean there needs to be a penalty to do so. I can't tell you how many MMO's I have quit because I want to play, not sit. And when you are starting out in most MMO's, such as FFXI, GW, WoW, there is little to no grouping, mainly because there is no point. You lose XP and items and money from sharing it with party members, and there isn't a great deal of time to talk to the random groupy anyway. I played GW since release, and I understand it isn't a "TRUE" MMORPG, but I still had time to have fun adventures running around with a random stranger, talk with funny, boring, and flat out mean people, and actually play the game without having to stop but for 30 seconds to regenerate my health bar. If all you do is say "Need rez" and "heal tank," it's probably because you are bored with the game (whether you realize it or not), and see no point doing more than what is absolutely necessary. I've had ridiculously hilarious conversations in the middle of intense battles in many MMO's, so it can be done.
Anyone can pull the "Go play WoW" card or the "It gives time to regroup and socialize," bit, but is that not what RL is for? Either make time for socializing ingame that doesn't require my ingame character to sit on a stump and reflect for 7 minutes, or just concede to the easy way out, and make us wait to play this vast and epic title. I'm not hating on Vanguard. Personally, I'm more excited about it than any other title at this point, but don't make me wait. A quick download from teamspeak, and I can talk about anything freely WHILE fighting orcs. And don't tell me your computer lags while talking and playing, if this is the case, your computer will not be able to handle Vanguard. Don't take the social aspect out of an MMO, just make it possible without having to stop playing. That is all I can say for now, and no I haven't played Vanguard yet, I'm just hoping that tomorrow when the Open Beta SUPPOSEDLY opens, it will live up to the title of a 3rd Gen MMO.
If you had experienced the kind of socialization we are talking about, you would instantly understand it, but because you come from a game that is based on "teh ub3r twink" and "I pwned j00" and (Leeeeeerrroooooyyyyy Jeeeeeeennnnnnnkiiiiiiiiiinnnnssss), I don't expect you to understand the nuances of proper in-game communication. I'm not being nasty, just pointing out that you have to have experienced the things we are talking about here to be able empathize and you won't experience these aspects of MMO gameplay in WoW. It just was not developed with that in mind. It's the McDonalds of MMOs (Millions served with generic content)
Wow that was hateful. And wrong.
I've played at least 90% of every MMO ever made and that includes a great number of the crazy independent games like Seed, train wrecks like Horizons, and many of the extremely niche Eastern MMOs. I've also played many group-dependent, harsh death penalty MMOs because that's all that was available in the first generation of MMOs, and I even played FF XI (arguably a 2nd generation MMO though it also had long travel times, group dependency, and harsh death penalties).
Back in the day when you used to sit in place and med between pulls and grind together in groups, there was some degree of socializing, but not very much honestly as even back then you only had about a minute until your healer and mages gained back MP. However, you still couldn't talk as much as you can and as easily while using Teamspeak. . . If you joined a channel with 20 people talking over each other then you should move to another channel (or, if it is for a raid, then you need to change to an adult guild where people are polite enough to not talk over each other -except for the raid leader who can interrupt to give directives or call for silence during difficult pulls and boss battles, etc.) Also, if people have babies screaming in the background then you are in a guild that doesn't require that people use push-to-talk (VERY important).
Play with voice-chat in a good guild for a month and you'll recognize that it is better both for running groups and socializing. That's why serious raid and PvP guilds require it. You've obviously never been that successful in any of the games you've played past the first generation if you refuse to use voice chat.
ROFLMFAO, I won't bother to tell you which EQ2 guild I was in as I'm not going to name drop but they required voice for raids and I used it. Read my post again for a better understanding. Secondly, it was far from hateful, but whatever you say. I've been plenty succesful in the MMOs I've played, I just don't feel the need to brag it all over the forums. If you NEED voice chat to succeed, I would say that it is you that have never been particularly successful within the realm of MMOs.
Well I honestly dont think the downtime is going to be as bad and people are seemingly scared of. From what I have read they are trying to make it a perfect medium..nothing as slow as EQ1 and nothing as fast as EQ2...One thing you gotta realize is that as you level you are gonna gain more hp and mana (no duh) but couple that with the fact that the mobs arent going to be like EQ2 and go down like that...more like EQ1..where you might have to fight something for 4 or 5 minutes before bringing it down..thus using more of you abilities, thus draining your mana.etc.
I can't hate on Teamspeak too much, Im sure one day I'll have to get used to it..my point is..there hasnt been anything I have accomplished that I am proud of that I needed it for so far..two lvl 70's in eq1..4 epics..almost completely flagged..didn't have to use it there...EQ2, havent seen a need for it in groups yet..everyone seems to be just fine typing..I do see where tone of voice can really help though...I just dont want to get in a pick up group..have to configure some outside software just to get away from all the crafting guildies talking...to make a new channel for the pickup. We could have already been fighting by me saying "Pulling..ready?"...yeah go ahead...lol
But Im sure I'll pick it up eventually..I guess I still have bad occassions playing with one on xbox and hearing nothing but emmy award winners on the other end..burping..farting...saying jokes that simply ARE NOT funny..lol...yeah, somethings CAN simply remain on the chat bar.
Hey, everyone is entitled to their opinion. That's what a forum is for afterall.
Teamspeak and Ventrilo are great. I couldn't tell you how many times it had saved my (faction's) bacon on the battlegrounds of WoW. However, some of the most memorable times I had in the game were actually from text (especially from some of the broadcast text our raid leader would give after downing bosses for the first time).
Furthermore, as a 'Roleplayer', I've played just about every kind character under(and orbiting) the virtual suns. Honestly, my vocal cords just can't convey the range of voices (well, a mute or two isn't hard, but...) over voice communication without seriously breaking the immersion (or break out in laughing fits).
I guess the sum of my opinion is: Yes, an Audio medium of communication is great. Yet, a visual(or better yet instinctual) medium more than holds it's own weight.
These WoW players are use to one cheif telling all the BBQ indians what to do... because its bad enuff that they have all these third party tools.... that tell them when to voke... or when to cast a spell but they also need some big indian to tell them lol when to pick up an add or when to heal... i mean shit why not, not play. just stick a bot in front of your char and go to sleep lol.
If you dont know how to act on certain encounters in certain situations you need to GTFO. IMO this whole voice chat thing took off with WoW because the player base is so stupid that they need have there hand held through every single detail... they are unable to function.
O yeah, im in one of the best guilds in one of the hardest MMO's on the market... GUESS WHAT WE DONT NEED VOICE CHAT.
Ok, first of all, I had read that it's hard to have a debate in any Vanguard forum without other's telling you to go back to WoW. There is definitely some truth to that. Where the hell did I say WoW was my main game? Actually I play DAOC as my main game and WoW only occasionally when I need a break. While DAOC is much more like EQ than any other game out there, as someone so aptly if not redundantly put, WoW is the McDonalds of MMO's. I agree 100%. But like the real McDonalds we all admit the food is not that great but it fills a spot when we need a quick fix. So I would kindly ask that it would be nice if we could have a conversation without someone dropping that tired cliche (yes it is now cliche to say "Go back to your ezmodez WoW).
First Wyzwun, I'm well aware of what Sigil is doing about spawn camping (btw are the Titan guild of EQ fame?). I was making a point to all those that are drooling about going back to the EQ days that things weren't always as great as they used to be. I don't believe instancing has totally "ruined" mmo's. I do believe it has been detrimental to the "packed" dungeon feeling you used to get from the EQ days (Guk anyone?). I understand how Sigil is planning on addressing the issue so that you have the best of both worlds and I think it's a great idea.
Now to address you SeriphinX...
1. The wife and I alternated staying awake for a week so that no one would try and ninja her chance at getting Ragefire for the cleric epic. Yes I said a week and yes I did go to work on her shift. There is no worse game design in the entire history of gaming in my opinion than the EQ Cleric epic. This was sick, sadistic, and in NO way whatsoever challenging from a game perspective. When the challenge comes from me trying to stay awake so no one will steal the mob, that's not a challenge. We quit the game shortly afterwards. The sense of accomplishment, strangely enough, did not come to us. Just a deep sense of wasting a lot of fricking time. By the way, this is when I realized spending hours for a pixel was not worth it.
Why would it be an Epic if anyone could get one every 3 minutes? Epics were optional..no one asked you to go after it lol. Besides, don't you have to raid the same place over and over in WoW to get pieces of armor? Doesn't sound much different to me. I played WoW but I got bored with too easily...started when I made my first character when it first came out and made a Priest...then discovered for the next 20 levels that no one really needs me to heal lol. I just think EQ brought a sense of feeling important whatever class you were you had a certain niche that made you nice for a group. And necros were cool just because they were necros.
First of all, we're not talking one every 3 minutes. We're talking one cleric epic entering the server every 1-2 weeks. We spent 3 weeks helping other's in our alliance camp theirs. Not to mention the preliminary parts of the quest also required camping items days at a time. Yes, they were optional, hell playing the whole game is optional, what's your point? I told you I used to raid, and anyone who played EQ knew how important the cleric epic was to epic raiding. Could raiding happen without it? Sure. Did a lot of guilds require it? You bet they did. Once again, what does WoW have to do with this? I was discussing problems with the original EQ that people tend to forget in their blathering about how they want things to be "tough" again. You guys for all your bellyaching sure do have a lot of "WoW"-envy. I still stand by my statement that this quest was probably the worst designed in the history of MMO's. The bad blood this quest generated on all servers could probably set a record. You ever wonder why someone at SOE finally woke up and changed the damn thing?
2. 11pm, you die deep in the bowels of somewhere. You have to be at work at 7am. Choices are:
a. Stay up until you get your corpse, looking at at least another 2 hours.
b. Try to find a necro to summon corpse sometime before your corpse rots.
c. Try to find a rogue to stealth carry your corpse sometime before your corpse rots.
d. Let your corpse rot.
Once again, people may find this challenging but I agree with Dink that the challenge should be in the encounter and not the cleanup.
If you want the challenge in just the encounter..then what IS the challenge if you don't want to really die in any harmfull way. By challenge, do you mean super fast? strong? evil caster? hard to catch? other than that last one, how can any of these be a 'challenge' if you don't have to worry about what happens to you? It's like someone trying to feel good about themselves beating a game with a gameshark attached to the console.
Actually like Dink said the challenge should be the encounter. Why don't we start a thread on "Ways to make mob AI and encounters more challenging" instead of "Encounters are only tough if you fear death". That would definitely be more productive. I understand you may want the thrill of losing everything your character has because some jackass caused a wipe and you can't get your corpse (yes I'm putting implied words in your mouth) but to me the penalty is failure to complete the task. Let's face it, in every game I played once a group of people figure out how to kill something it becomes "farm status mode". For all intents and purposes this encounter is now old news and even dieing is not a problem no matter the penalty. Like Dink said, how about let people have the opportunity to test their mettle against the encounter instead of against the death penalty which he rightly said promotes the heavy use of external sources to complete (in my garage I have a file cabinet full of EQ printouts).
Finally, I'm not sure how your gameshark analogy matches what I'm even trying to say. Nobody is actually cheating trying to figure out an encounter just because the death penalty doesn't require you to spend the next 3 hours to retrieve your corpse. I mean if you didn't kill the damn thing it's still gonna be there no matter when you get your corpse back, waiting to be attempted again.
All you crows that keep caw-cawing "Socialize, Socialize". It's called Ventrilo or Teamspeak, ok? My wife sits next to me and she has more fun chatting with the guild on Vent than she ever did in chat text. She can be anywhere in the game, doing whatever and have, yep, you guessed it, FULL BLOWN CONVERSATIONS with people from around the globe. We currently have two brothers from Great Britain that currently live in Spain that are our two favorite people we ever met in a game. She loves the accents and they love ours. One of their sons about 8 years old or so my wife just adores because of his cute little accent and his unheard of in America manners. She is experience cultures, mannerisms and accents that a normal country girl would never have in the first place. Now that's socializing.
Headsets are neat..but don't try to pass gas as a rational thought such as if you use one then there is no need for down time..Sorry but I like planning and I like talking tactics before going at it...If Im grinding experience no of course not, but if we are grouped to take down something very fierce like Vindy...yeah I sort of want to get everyone together and discuss the plan. Whether you do it by typing or headset you are still gonna be stopped for a moment..but I go back to my 'instant gratification' arguement as to the reason that even this bothers people..hell even Leeroy Jenkins stood by to listen before running in
Plus I havent had a problem using the software (i.e. the chatbars) that the game came with without needing to download anything else or having any extra hardware to go along with it...I socialized just fine and am in no way inferior to someone using a headset lol. Nice try on that one but you need to sell that one free of charge.
Ok, we get the WoW references again. Like I said not really warranted. Playing smarter and using tools readily available is not "instant gratification". Let me give you an analogy that has nothing to do with WoW...
My father grew up poor, the middle of nowhere, and had one pair of shoes a year. He actually had to cross a river on a small bridge that flooded quite often just to get to school. Many times crossing the flooded river with his beloved shoes on his head. Then they invented this thing called a "bus" that finally was able to come to his remote home. My dad has the perfect "back in my day" story. He could sit around at family gatherings and told people how he wasn't going to use no "new-fangled" bus when he had perfectly good feet to cross that river with. I think you see where this is going.
Planning and strategy involve everyone in "real time" and "simultaneously". We all know that a lot can be lost in translation in text chat. If you enjoy text chat and absolutely hate the downsides of voice chat then I'm sure nothing I can say will change your mind. I think it's a handy tool that offers more in the lines of "convenience" rather than "instant gratification". Your not inferior by any means for using text chat. You may have taken some kind of implication that I said you were. If that I apologize. Once again I mentioned it as a tool for clarity and overall ease of communication. Not sure how that can be denied.
Then you have the Chatty Cathy's. Every guild I have been in on every game had at least one of these. These people so pestered by the dead space in guild chat when people are, you know, not wanting to chat but to play, that they can't stand it. They start spewing any and every kind of problem, whine, or general drudgery about their lives just because they believe they have a stage to grandstand on. Much easier to kindly tell these people by your voice inflections that you just don't give a shit than to say "Hey I don't give a shit" in text chat.
I like your point on this one...but there are guild whores wherever you go..especially those 'female' characters that like to be center of attention..and I've heard my fair share of it when I tried Ventrillo once..sorry but if Im in a group and communicating just fine via text..I don't need to constantly hear what some other group in my guild is doing at the time..which also includes the drama queens you spoke of. Then just turn it off while you are doing that, you say? Then what's the point of having it? lol
Vent has ignore features the same as regular chat. Some I'm not understanding where your going with this.
So no, I'm sorry, I don't need to be sitting on my ass watching a bar slowly fill up to actually socialize. We are way beyond that folks. I want to be playing the game not watching it. If you can't get to Bestbuy and get a $15-$30 headset then you maybe your not as serious about socializing as you pretend to be.
And it goes back to what I have said before..this game may not be for you then...but I refuse to hear "WoW is the way combat needs to be therefore I want it in any other game I play and if it's not there..I'm gonna post up Nostradamus style and say that the game will fail because I have to get a corpse or two....or three
Once again, WoW is brought into the conversation. The "sit for 5 minutes to med" game mechanic in my opinion is over with, done, period. It was tired "back in the day" and it's tired now. We all realized back in 2000-2001 that it was nothing more than a "timesink" meant to keep you subscribing longer. Look at the next patch for DAOC, they are reducing med time by 50%. This old-school game is adapting and it's not because of WoW. I would venture to say most people enjoy DAOC PvP way more than DAOC PvE. They were annoyed that this outdated "timesink" was still being used. Meaning DAOC PvE is not the most exciting (Although my wife does love the new Labyrinth zone added, but it is a PvE/PvP zone).
To make matters worse, every, and I mean every MMO I have played always had the classes that had the ability to bypass the med downtimes. Play a necro in DAOC, play a bard in EQ and you'll see what I mean. That's the problem with this game mechanic. With the various classes and skills a normal game has it makes it almost impossible to "balance" the game mechanics so that all classes share the same "timesink". So basically you end up with everyone having a power-leveling class. My mercenary in DAOC would take at least 30-45 minutes in a task dungeon that my necro could do in a third of the time.
Once again, I'm not bashing Vanguard and I'm actually keeping open eyes and mind on it's progress. I hope it succeeds. I'm skeptical that if it implements a lot of the things that people in this thread are rose-coloredly giving as examples of the perfect MMO, then it will be destined to fail. You may not like WoW, whatever, but we've definitely moved past EQ.
Case in point.
What case? My point with that last sentence was what I've been harping this entire post. Most responses here on about any subject always have someone tossing a jab to WoW. My post was discussing EQ and it's flawed mechanics, but you and several others keep acting like I want to make World of Vancraft. Let me help, the phrase "You may not like Wow"="I'm tired of this as a rebuttal". Neither of us want WoW part deux. If I want WoW I will play WoW. There sure as hell nothing wrong with taking stuff that works from any game and using it. How do you think WoW was so well done? For me the main thing I would love to see come from WoW would be the mail/auction system, anything else, whatever.
written by Sharkypal
@Peacedog : Thank GOD or whoever (I'm not religious) Sigil does not think the same way you do. You can keep your "revolutionary" MMO /vomits
I have no idea what the hell you are talking about. I'm assuming your using my post to make another whine about WoW with emotes and everything. Sure I'd like Sigil to listen to every idea I have so I could charge them for consulting. But who the hell is stupid enough to think their "opinions" are what an entire development team should listen too verbatim. It's called "looking for options" on how to make a better product that satisfies a relevant portion of your potential customer base. What's so "Revolutionary" about using game mechanics from a game nearly a decade old just to satisfy the "back in my day" crowd. As a developer, you now have a smorgasbord of ideas to pick and choose from to enhance your own unique game mechanics. Only a fool would not take advantage of that.
Once again thanks for taking the time to read this if you did. I enjoy having these little debates and my intentions were not to flame. If I did I apologize beforehand. But, If you want to respond with another "Go back to WoW" then my only response will basically be "Go to hell" and I'll continue to have discussions with people that actually have something important to say.
thanks for education..I'll make sure to buy a huge crate of your 'knowledge' if I'm ever driving by the bullshit factory and have nothing to do.
To focus on 'i dont play WoW' just drives my point home even further in the 'you just do not get it' department. You try to get it..and it's a valiant effort, but still to no avail.
I was using WoW as an example in my reply, bro...Not trying to physically PLACE you into that game or call you a WoW'r..HOWEVER the things you are asking for are as far as reduced penalties, etc. are FOUND in WoW.. The things that you want to see that are NOT a hinderance to your gaming style are found in WoW. So if you not playing, then....why aren't you?
As for the reply to my reply of challenging mobs..well..that is just where I basically had to take a triple take on this one. I'm gonna take you quote that you made..that you obviously don't agree with and just look at it for a second:
"Encounters are only tough if you fear death."
wow...so let me try to understand this...you want a mob to be challenging..tough to beat...but the fear of losing or death shouldn't play a MAJOR role in a COMBAT situation?...I'm just gonna let that one go as the fact that there is waaaay too many avenues I go down to verbally pick apart everything that is wrong with that mentality as to it not making any sense whatsoever. Not to mention the lack of comprehension involved for even thinking that which leads to my gameshark analogy..and if you don't get that..I don't know what to tell ya man (I'll give you a hint.it wasn't implying cheating) It was a reflective statement suggesting that a majority of people don't want to play anything that might cause a little bit of frustration or...RISK. Has society really gotten this weak that not only does life has to always be easy with no problems but now the frick'n video games have to follow suit as well?
Now as for the teamspeak statement that you said you didn't know where I was going..it's called "I was agreeing with you." No frills, just..a good point!! Why does everything have to have a fuck'n catch with some of you people.
Now dont get me wrong, I know you obviously do not play WoW..I guess the reason I am bringing into the mix is because it has all that which you seek..Just trying to help..And I'll reiterate that Vanguard may not be for you then...that is what everyone is failing to accept and I think it is comical..I doubt the med times will be a pain so no worries there..but yeah, it'll have corpse runs unless you pay a toll I think..but be warned, the mobs will be mor elike in eq1 where taking one down takes several minutes..instead of like,say, EQ2 where you can take several down in one minute hehe. Thus using more abilities, more mana, and the possibility of more med time. If it is a bother to you, then the golden rule applies...This may not be a game for you. The whole "no med times are the modern way to do it and that's how it should be" just simply will not be the complete mentality of this game. And as wrong as you think it is, nothing is likely to change that. I agree with harsher penalties..you don't..but dont try to play me into thinking "the idea of this game mechanic" or somewhat who supports a certain mechanic is just "wrong" gaming wise. Your point is made on that, but I'm not buying it at all..nothing personal.
Maybe you don't play WoW but it sure sounds like you are advocating for a game LIKE WoW. That was the whole point of my previous comment. We don't need another game like WoW!
they have a brand new expansion coming out, glider is adding new tools and apps by the day to help you in playyyy err NOT play the game! kkthnxbye
Originally posted by Peacedog
Ok, first of all, I had read that it's hard to have a debate in any Vanguard forum without other's telling you to go back to WoW. There is definitely some truth to that. Where the hell did I say WoW was my main game? Actually I play DAOC as my main game and WoW only occasionally when I need a break. While DAOC is much more like EQ than any other game out there, as someone so aptly if not redundantly put, WoW is the McDonalds of MMO's. I agree 100%. But like the real McDonalds we all admit the food is not that great but it fills a spot when we need a quick fix. So I would kindly ask that it would be nice if we could have a conversation without someone dropping that tired cliche (yes it is now cliche to say "Go back to your ezmodez WoW).
First Wyzwun, I'm well aware of what Sigil is doing about spawn camping (btw are the Titan guild of EQ fame?). I was making a point to all those that are drooling about going back to the EQ days that things weren't always as great as they used to be. I don't believe instancing has totally "ruined" mmo's. I do believe it has been detrimental to the "packed" dungeon feeling you used to get from the EQ days (Guk anyone?). I understand how Sigil is planning on addressing the issue so that you have the best of both worlds and I think it's a great idea.
Now to address you SeriphinX...
1. The wife and I alternated staying awake for a week so that no one would try and ninja her chance at getting Ragefire for the cleric epic. Yes I said a week and yes I did go to work on her shift. There is no worse game design in the entire history of gaming in my opinion than the EQ Cleric epic. This was sick, sadistic, and in NO way whatsoever challenging from a game perspective. When the challenge comes from me trying to stay awake so no one will steal the mob, that's not a challenge. We quit the game shortly afterwards. The sense of accomplishment, strangely enough, did not come to us. Just a deep sense of wasting a lot of fricking time. By the way, this is when I realized spending hours for a pixel was not worth it.
Why would it be an Epic if anyone could get one every 3 minutes? Epics were optional..no one asked you to go after it lol. Besides, don't you have to raid the same place over and over in WoW to get pieces of armor? Doesn't sound much different to me. I played WoW but I got bored with too easily...started when I made my first character when it first came out and made a Priest...then discovered for the next 20 levels that no one really needs me to heal lol. I just think EQ brought a sense of feeling important whatever class you were you had a certain niche that made you nice for a group. And necros were cool just because they were necros.
First of all, we're not talking one every 3 minutes. We're talking one cleric epic entering the server every 1-2 weeks. We spent 3 weeks helping other's in our alliance camp theirs. Not to mention the preliminary parts of the quest also required camping items days at a time. Yes, they were optional, hell playing the whole game is optional, what's your point? I told you I used to raid, and anyone who played EQ knew how important the cleric epic was to epic raiding. Could raiding happen without it? Sure. Did a lot of guilds require it? You bet they did. Once again, what does WoW have to do with this? I was discussing problems with the original EQ that people tend to forget in their blathering about how they want things to be "tough" again. You guys for all your bellyaching sure do have a lot of "WoW"-envy. I still stand by my statement that this quest was probably the worst designed in the history of MMO's. The bad blood this quest generated on all servers could probably set a record. You ever wonder why someone at SOE finally woke up and changed the damn thing?
2. 11pm, you die deep in the bowels of somewhere. You have to be at work at 7am. Choices are:
a. Stay up until you get your corpse, looking at at least another 2 hours.
b. Try to find a necro to summon corpse sometime before your corpse rots.
c. Try to find a rogue to stealth carry your corpse sometime before your corpse rots.
d. Let your corpse rot.
Once again, people may find this challenging but I agree with Dink that the challenge should be in the encounter and not the cleanup.
If you want the challenge in just the encounter..then what IS the challenge if you don't want to really die in any harmfull way. By challenge, do you mean super fast? strong? evil caster? hard to catch? other than that last one, how can any of these be a 'challenge' if you don't have to worry about what happens to you? It's like someone trying to feel good about themselves beating a game with a gameshark attached to the console.
Actually like Dink said the challenge should be the encounter. Why don't we start a thread on "Ways to make mob AI and encounters more challenging" instead of "Encounters are only tough if you fear death". That would definitely be more productive. I understand you may want the thrill of losing everything your character has because some jackass caused a wipe and you can't get your corpse (yes I'm putting implied words in your mouth) but to me the penalty is failure to complete the task. Let's face it, in every game I played once a group of people figure out how to kill something it becomes "farm status mode". For all intents and purposes this encounter is now old news and even dieing is not a problem no matter the penalty. Like Dink said, how about let people have the opportunity to test their mettle against the encounter instead of against the death penalty which he rightly said promotes the heavy use of external sources to complete (in my garage I have a file cabinet full of EQ printouts).
Finally, I'm not sure how your gameshark analogy matches what I'm even trying to say. Nobody is actually cheating trying to figure out an encounter just because the death penalty doesn't require you to spend the next 3 hours to retrieve your corpse. I mean if you didn't kill the damn thing it's still gonna be there no matter when you get your corpse back, waiting to be attempted again.
All you crows that keep caw-cawing "Socialize, Socialize". It's called Ventrilo or Teamspeak, ok? My wife sits next to me and she has more fun chatting with the guild on Vent than she ever did in chat text. She can be anywhere in the game, doing whatever and have, yep, you guessed it, FULL BLOWN CONVERSATIONS with people from around the globe. We currently have two brothers from Great Britain that currently live in Spain that are our two favorite people we ever met in a game. She loves the accents and they love ours. One of their sons about 8 years old or so my wife just adores because of his cute little accent and his unheard of in America manners. She is experience cultures, mannerisms and accents that a normal country girl would never have in the first place. Now that's socializing.
Headsets are neat..but don't try to pass gas as a rational thought such as if you use one then there is no need for down time..Sorry but I like planning and I like talking tactics before going at it...If Im grinding experience no of course not, but if we are grouped to take down something very fierce like Vindy...yeah I sort of want to get everyone together and discuss the plan. Whether you do it by typing or headset you are still gonna be stopped for a moment..but I go back to my 'instant gratification' arguement as to the reason that even this bothers people..hell even Leeroy Jenkins stood by to listen before running in
Plus I havent had a problem using the software (i.e. the chatbars) that the game came with without needing to download anything else or having any extra hardware to go along with it...I socialized just fine and am in no way inferior to someone using a headset lol. Nice try on that one but you need to sell that one free of charge.
Ok, we get the WoW references again. Like I said not really warranted. Playing smarter and using tools readily available is not "instant gratification". Let me give you an analogy that has nothing to do with WoW...
My father grew up poor, the middle of nowhere, and had one pair of shoes a year. He actually had to cross a river on a small bridge that flooded quite often just to get to school. Many times crossing the flooded river with his beloved shoes on his head. Then they invented this thing called a "bus" that finally was able to come to his remote home. My dad has the perfect "back in my day" story. He could sit around at family gatherings and told people how he wasn't going to use no "new-fangled" bus when he had perfectly good feet to cross that river with. I think you see where this is going.
Planning and strategy involve everyone in "real time" and "simultaneously". We all know that a lot can be lost in translation in text chat. If you enjoy text chat and absolutely hate the downsides of voice chat then I'm sure nothing I can say will change your mind. I think it's a handy tool that offers more in the lines of "convenience" rather than "instant gratification". Your not inferior by any means for using text chat. You may have taken some kind of implication that I said you were. If that I apologize. Once again I mentioned it as a tool for clarity and overall ease of communication. Not sure how that can be denied.
Then you have the Chatty Cathy's. Every guild I have been in on every game had at least one of these. These people so pestered by the dead space in guild chat when people are, you know, not wanting to chat but to play, that they can't stand it. They start spewing any and every kind of problem, whine, or general drudgery about their lives just because they believe they have a stage to grandstand on. Much easier to kindly tell these people by your voice inflections that you just don't give a shit than to say "Hey I don't give a shit" in text chat.
I like your point on this one...but there are guild whores wherever you go..especially those 'female' characters that like to be center of attention..and I've heard my fair share of it when I tried Ventrillo once..sorry but if Im in a group and communicating just fine via text..I don't need to constantly hear what some other group in my guild is doing at the time..which also includes the drama queens you spoke of. Then just turn it off while you are doing that, you say? Then what's the point of having it? lol
Vent has ignore features the same as regular chat. Some I'm not understanding where your going with this.
So no, I'm sorry, I don't need to be sitting on my ass watching a bar slowly fill up to actually socialize. We are way beyond that folks. I want to be playing the game not watching it. If you can't get to Bestbuy and get a $15-$30 headset then you maybe your not as serious about socializing as you pretend to be.
And it goes back to what I have said before..this game may not be for you then...but I refuse to hear "WoW is the way combat needs to be therefore I want it in any other game I play and if it's not there..I'm gonna post up Nostradamus style and say that the game will fail because I have to get a corpse or two....or three
Once again, WoW is brought into the conversation. The "sit for 5 minutes to med" game mechanic in my opinion is over with, done, period. It was tired "back in the day" and it's tired now. We all realized back in 2000-2001 that it was nothing more than a "timesink" meant to keep you subscribing longer. Look at the next patch for DAOC, they are reducing med time by 50%. This old-school game is adapting and it's not because of WoW. I would venture to say most people enjoy DAOC PvP way more than DAOC PvE. They were annoyed that this outdated "timesink" was still being used. Meaning DAOC PvE is not the most exciting (Although my wife does love the new Labyrinth zone added, but it is a PvE/PvP zone).
To make matters worse, every, and I mean every MMO I have played always had the classes that had the ability to bypass the med downtimes. Play a necro in DAOC, play a bard in EQ and you'll see what I mean. That's the problem with this game mechanic. With the various classes and skills a normal game has it makes it almost impossible to "balance" the game mechanics so that all classes share the same "timesink". So basically you end up with everyone having a power-leveling class. My mercenary in DAOC would take at least 30-45 minutes in a task dungeon that my necro could do in a third of the time.
Once again, I'm not bashing Vanguard and I'm actually keeping open eyes and mind on it's progress. I hope it succeeds. I'm skeptical that if it implements a lot of the things that people in this thread are rose-coloredly giving as examples of the perfect MMO, then it will be destined to fail. You may not like WoW, whatever, but we've definitely moved past EQ.
Case in point.
What case? My point with that last sentence was what I've been harping this entire post. Most responses here on about any subject always have someone tossing a jab to WoW. My post was discussing EQ and it's flawed mechanics, but you and several others keep acting like I want to make World of Vancraft. Let me help, the phrase "You may not like Wow"="I'm tired of this as a rebuttal". Neither of us want WoW part deux. If I want WoW I will play WoW. There sure as hell nothing wrong with taking stuff that works from any game and using it. How do you think WoW was so well done? For me the main thing I would love to see come from WoW would be the mail/auction system, anything else, whatever.
written by Sharkypal
@Peacedog : Thank GOD or whoever (I'm not religious) Sigil does not think the same way you do. You can keep your "revolutionary" MMO /vomits
I have no idea what the hell you are talking about. I'm assuming your using my post to make another whine about WoW with emotes and everything. Sure I'd like Sigil to listen to every idea I have so I could charge them for consulting. But who the hell is stupid enough to think their "opinions" are what an entire development team should listen too verbatim. It's called "looking for options" on how to make a better product that satisfies a relevant portion of your potential customer base. What's so "Revolutionary" about using game mechanics from a game nearly a decade old just to satisfy the "back in my day" crowd. As a developer, you now have a smorgasbord of ideas to pick and choose from to enhance your own unique game mechanics. Only a fool would not take advantage of that.
Once again thanks for taking the time to read this if you did. I enjoy having these little debates and my intentions were not to flame. If I did I apologize beforehand. But, If you want to respond with another "Go back to WoW" then my only response will basically be "Go to hell" and I'll continue to have discussions with people that actually have something important to say.
A quick download from teamspeak, and I can talk about anything freely WHILE fighting orcs. And don't tell me your computer lags while talking and playing, if this is the case, your computer will not be able to handle Vanguard. Don't take the social aspect out of an MMO, just make it possible without having to stop playing.
It isn't my computer that is lagging, but when peoples are using teamspeak, they experience LAG. Denying it doesn't change that fact. I also rather socialise with the peoples in the house here while I play a MMO, than to whichever geek using teamspeak (aka, I rather socialise with peoples I CHOOSE to live with, then with some geek sharing my past time). See, life doesn't stop when you play a MMO, and unless you are soooo very lonely, you are going to talk with peoples and answer the phone while playing your MMO. Now, having someone that tell a joke about whatever nonsense on teamspeak, while you are answering the phone, that is annoying, so you turn the teamspeak volume off, then back on...all while substaining more lag?
Ridiculising peoples who complain about the LAG teamspeak add to a game isn't going to help your get your point accross. Lag can be due to several factor, and automatically attacking the computer of someone who is talking about VANGUARD is quite silly indeed, did you even bother to read the specs to play Vanguard? Than what make you think it would be the user computer that will bring lag? Fact is, 99% of the lag I experience is either linked with my internet provider, with the server in california or some other external source. See, a good MMO only exchange minimal amount of info with a user computer anyway, so the user computer is running the game from a crude sketch, the server should pretty much run bland stuff and indicate their facing, like a brown vertical line, a green vertical line and so on for the players...that is what a server does, a player computer convert all this into a sweet looking environment. As shown by CoH, it doesn't matter if there are slight distinctions between what player A and player B sees, as long as the monster is in the same spot, using the same spells and having the same facing, can't care less if it is actually different models of monsters.
IF I would choose to play Vanguard (not the case atm), I would go buy a new computer, and I would still refuse teamspeak, for LAG reason. Not to forget, that it is easier to upload a virus and affect a player computer throught teamspeak, than throught Vanguard. I am sure it is possible throught Vanguard...but heck, that is extremely complicated...throught teamspeak? Errr, go away evil virus bringer! It is almost as bad as Messenger, almost...
Teamspeak add a 3rd party software, not included in the MMO, with it own "servers/routers"...and you tell me it doesn't bring any lag? The power gamer I am tell you to: STFU NOOB! I will use a "teamspeak" when it is INCLUDED into the MMO, not a 3rd party that will bring lag on my gaming session. Can I be any more direct?
- "If I understand you well, you are telling me until next time. " - Ren
thanks for education..I'll make sure to buy a huge crate of your 'knowledge' if I'm ever driving by the bullshit factory and have nothing to do.
That right there is even why Brad has commented on Vanbois in a negative light. I'm trying to discuss a subject where I don't believe I have made any points that were either incoherent , extraordinary or non-viable and this is what I get. Look, if this is your idea of how you want to discuss making a better game then I can leave you guys to it and you can pretend I never said anything. Blind faith usually deals with it's proponents in a most deliciously wicked way so I could give two shits. If you want to have a discussion, then I'm all ears.
To focus on 'i dont play WoW' just drives my point home even further in the 'you just do not get it' department. You try to get it..and it's a valiant effort, but still to no avail.
I was using WoW as an example in my reply, bro...Not trying to physically PLACE you into that game or call you a WoW'r..HOWEVER the things you are asking for are as far as reduced penalties, etc. are FOUND in WoW.. The things that you want to see that are NOT a hinderance to your gaming style are found in WoW. So if you not playing, then....why aren't you?
You guys think WoW invented catering to the masses??? Really do you? EQ, DAOC, AO, COH, ah hell pretty much every MMO ever made has made concessions to make their customer's happy. It's called running a business, and blizzard doesn't corner the market. People in EQ bitched about travel times, we got Plane of Knowledge. People in DAOC bitched about starting over from level 1 on alts. They got /level 20. The successful companies like I said adapt. You may not like it, but if you quit and 10 more replace you because they like it guess what, you lose.
Lets try this...
Somewhere in the world there is somebody that likes permanent death in their MMO's. I bet you don't. So how come your idea is so much more viable than the permanent death dude. Matter of fact he thinks your a pussy for not wanting permanent death. He thinks your a lousy ezmoder because you have all those fancy corpse runs. You'd think this guy was off his rocker and I guarantee you would argue with him that your right and he's wrong and tell him about your visits to bullshit factories and whatnot. Guess what he's not wrong, nor are you, nor am I. That is none of us are wrong unless we are the business in question trying to figure out which mechanic to use to stay afloat and not some armchairanians trading insults on a message board.
Let's get one thing straight. I'll place good money that Brad understands the WoW phenomena and is working as hard as he can to make sure that his product appeals to those who are currently playing WoW as much as those that don't. And I don't mean those who just pop on message boards and talk McWoW smack. I'm talking the "majority". Those who just want a fun experience without the tedium of either old school EQ or boring as hell raid-until-you-drop WoW endgame.
So basically whether you want hardcore, or I want casual, or some other dude wants extreme hardcore, Brad and Co. I guarantee you are working hard on trying to appease all of us and I commend them for that. I can also guarantee you they wince everytime some extremist tells a potential customer to go play another game because they mistakenly think the game is being designed in "their" vision.
wow...so let me try to understand this...you want a mob to be challenging..tough to beat...but the fear of losing or death
First of all don't change your tune now. Your not talking fear of losing OR death, you've just been talking death. I've made it perfectly clear that trying to conquer the encounter should be the main focus, not the artificial "timesink" of a corpse run. Losing and corpse runs are not the same thing.
shouldn't play a MAJOR role in a COMBAT situation?...I'm just gonna let that one go as the fact that there is waaaay too many avenues I go down to verbally pick apart everything that is wrong with that mentality as to it not making any sense whatsoever.
Then my friend that is your problem if it's not making any sense. Because it makes sense to Sigil since they have options for death besides the old EQ corpse run. You've only went down one avenue that I've seen and that is corpse runs=challenge, no corpse runs=carebear. Hell, doesn't EQ now have options for corpses that they didn't have back in 2002? Did I ever specifically say that "EVERYBODY TURNS TO A GHOST AND RUNS TO THEIR CORPSE" is the only frickin' option? No, but you guys like I said butter every damn Vanguard-contrary comment with a big dollop of WoW hate.
To focus on 'i dont play WoW' just drives my point home even further in the 'you just do not get it' department. You try to get it..and it's a valiant effort, but still to no avail.
I get it just fine, go patronize someone who can't handle it, because as a debate tactic it's laughable at best. Espescially when Oh, and by the way, if you re-read I said "that I play WoW when I feel like it". Which last week I felt like, I had fun, now I'm playing DAOC again mixed in with WoW. Next week I might re-up my Eve account. You see the one true lesson I learned from EQ and SOE is don't get too attached to your characters. Have fun, when you stop having fun, move on. Come back if you feel like you can have fun again. All three of the above mentioned games provide both fun at times and boredom at times. I suspect Vanguard will be no different.
Now dont get me wrong, I know you obviously do not play WoW..I guess the reason I am bringing into the mix is because it has all that which you seek..Just trying to help..And I'll reiterate that Vanguard may not be for you then...that is what everyone is failing to accept and I think it is comical..I doubt the med times will be a pain so no worries there..but yeah, it'll have corpse runs unless you pay a toll I think..but be warned, the mobs will be mor elike in eq1 where taking one down takes several minutes..instead of like,say, EQ2 where you can take several down in one minute hehe. Thus using more abilities, more mana, and the possibility of more med time. If it is a bother to you, then the golden rule applies...This may not be a game for you. The whole "no med times are the modern way to do it and that's how it should be" just simply will not be the complete mentality of this game. And as wrong as you think it is, nothing is likely to change that. I agree with harsher penalties..you don't..but dont try to play me into thinking "the idea of this game mechanic" or somewhat who supports a certain mechanic is just "wrong" gaming wise. Your point is made on that, but I'm not buying it at all..nothing personal.
Nothing personal taken. I'm thinking though your going to be in for a bigger suprise than I am. See you guys think that Vanguard is going to replace your virtual hymen that got popped back in the EQ days. Once again I'm willing to bet that I'll be closer to right than you guys are in the long run. And this is not saying that Brad is caving in to the WoW hand-holders. It's called learning from past experience and I'm sure he recognizes mechanics that people "as a whole" don't particularly care for. Because if he doesn't then he definitely has a long row to hoe. Yes they game may even become another WoW clone, I hope not, but if this ever happens I will offer you the same advice, "This game may not be for you".
Also the golden rule is "treat others as you want to be treated" not "This game may not be for you". For the record, I'm not for instant med times and constant killing. I'm against the med times of Old EQ that everyone is harping about being the glory days. I'm going so far as to say people did not enjoy those long ass med times as much as they like to say they did. For all the words being crammed into my mouth, sadly, this is the one point I wanted to get across so I'll just end it with this....
In a long time coming nutshell, In my opinion, the glory days of EQ are not as glorious as our jaded memories would like us to believe. Serious mistakes were made and the worst thing Sigil could ever do, in my opinion, is make the same mistakes again.
Thanks for taking the time to debate this with me. While I agree I may be wrong and you also may be wrong I do appreciate the low-level amount of namecalling these things usually stir up.
P.S. I have no idea why I decided to use an orange font.
Edit: Nicely stated Wyzwun. You do realize that your dreams of appearing as the sophisticated gamer to the legions of drooling wow mouth breathers just took the hypocritical turn from hell?
Going over their FAQ, it seems like their making a few mistakes design-wise. They wanted to look back over the 2-generations of MMO's and build off of those, yet they mainly made a 1st generation MMO. Downtime in between battles, taking a large amount of time to find a group, etc - were the PLAGUES of games like Everquest.
They stated that they wanted to remove the tedium, yet I find, downtime in between battles especially, tedious as can be. Their reasons for it is the most outrageous thing I've ever heard = "Downtime should exist between battles to rest up, talk about the previous encounter, plan for the next one, use the restroom, grab a soda, etc"
Why? Isn't that the exact thing we've been trying to avoid for years? The whole sandwich logic (Sit down for health and go make a sandwich). For a game thats trying to immerse me, and is offering such a rich world, why make me sit around bored in it?
Then the 2nd plague comes to mind, spending hours finding a silly group. Not only do you have to find a group for a quest like in various other MMO's, you have to find a group full of people flagged for that exact step of the quest your on. However, I didn't truly understand how integral questing is going to be in Vanguard, so I'll cut them some slack on that for now. Either way, waiting for a group, similar to that of resting in between battles, is extremely tedious and isn't FUN! The fun factor is what it comes down to in the end.
They should of looked back at Ultima Online, which had further depth then EQ ever did, yet lacked all of the tedium. Ultima Online is the game that Vanguard is actually trying to be. Open world, death penalties, and dungeon crawling.
yeah thats what I loved bout guild wars. There's always tons of other people working on the main storyline. In City of heroes they also handled this well I thought - I never had much trouble getting help for my missions. yeah I guess it could suck if they dont have a good LFG tool. however, I'd wait til they release before prejudging them
I have been reading Peacedog's intelligent posts and lamenting the fact that no game developer will ever read them and take them to heart. He is 100% correct in everything he has said so far, and the only people I see in opposition to him are the same people that think time = skill.
Also, TeamSpeak or Vent causing lag? Please. Anyone that says Voice comms. are not needed has obviously never competed against a guild or team that uses them.
We don't need another. Having to research things online etc forced one to use ones BRAIN! I like having to work for things, there is nothing wrong with it.
Errr, I think I use my brain more when I TRY something, then when I read on FoH forums. When I SOLO a rune (for a level 65 spell) on my own and figure a place to camp them, I was happy...and someone couldn't have read that on the net and benefit from it long enough before they "nerf it".
Either way, personnally I find the XP penalty in EQ to be laughable. Yet, it seems to be killing the casuals, I hardly see what it brings. I will run ahead and try something impossible, XP penalty or not. I will use my brain FAR more than if I would search the internet...searching the internet is refusing to go throught the intellectual process of actually understanding the game mechanic yourself. Some days in old EQ I died 20 times, and I still make over 10 AAs these days, way back in early 2003, when I was still playing EQ. 20 deaths without a rez would have meant losing like 4 levels, but with rez it was losing a yellow, which is a joke considering that each AA is also a yellow. Haha, at peaks moment, I refuse rez because they would have made me OOM and I was earning XP faster anyway than I could lose, at PEAKS moments only, still...Understanding YOURSELF, with the tools you have, THAT is using your brain...reading FoH website...errr...that is killing everything between your ears!
In some groups I was main puller and chain pulling, main CC, main DPS, main slower, and it was FUN. I like been the shining star and figure new way to face the challenges in a game. I ain't exactly a pocket chanter some peoples would expect from a chanter having half the hps of any other group member because I didn't raid, and I honestly won't sit by. Not my type, I am a hero, I am a shining beacon, I am a star...or I try to at least! Peoples are welcome to group and join the fun, and I will accept to share some duties, reluctantly somedays however, depend on the mood. Pocket chanters are sweet and kinds and they often site on twice the hps I have, however, I don't envy them, not 1 single moment. Often I hear: "Please sit back and handle CC and buffs", somedays I may do it...depend on my mood, but I wouldn't count on that if I were you, I am far more likely to go open that door and run back behind the group and/or kite while I will mez/charm the adds, then proceed with AE tash and follow with slow! Clerics better be alerts! Noobs may perish! And if the mobs are stunnable and we have a wizard, I may very well bring 10-15 mobs despite the fact there are no other AE stunner and get the wizard in a happy nuking mood...first and foremost, the game has to be FUN. Careful snail progressers doesn't exactly enjoy my presence, but again, EQ was so harsh that the alternative was to wait...so I convert a few one to a more daredevil type of group. Harsh penalties may remove most risk from the game.
In another message I read that someone dislike ZONING but enjoys meditating? WTF, gimme zoning, I can cope with that, it is a lesser evil, medding? ROFL, I can cope with that, but it is definitely boring and draining away from the game. I was doing something else while my toon was meditating, if I play another game while I play your game, doesn't that mean that YOU fail? If to be entertained, I have to play another game at the SAME time, rofl, isn't that the WORST possible insult I can do to a designer?
And some peoples put a LOT of focus on CHALLENGE, personnally I like challenges, a LOT. If there is none, I will find some by doing something harder, that wasn't intended, that lowbies might think is stupid or rash, and often they are right, but sometimes it turns out that I UNDERSTAND and learn more about the game by succeeding at something new. But challenge is a side aspect, an addition, not the reason someone play a RPG. Someone who play a RPG is achieving, progressing, developping...challenges are welcome, but secondaries.
thanks for education..I'll make sure to buy a huge crate of your 'knowledge' if I'm ever driving by the bullshit factory and have nothing to do.
That right there is even why Brad has commented on Vanbois in a negative light. I'm trying to discuss a subject where I don't believe I have made any points that were either incoherent , extraordinary or non-viable and this is what I get. Look, if this is your idea of how you want to discuss making a better game then I can leave you guys to it and you can pretend I never said anything. Blind faith usually deals with it's proponents in a most deliciously wicked way so I could give two shits. If you want to have a discussion, then I'm all ears.
To focus on 'i dont play WoW' just drives my point home even further in the 'you just do not get it' department. You try to get it..and it's a valiant effort, but still to no avail. I was using WoW as an example in my reply, bro...Not trying to physically PLACE you into that game or call you a WoW'r..HOWEVER the things you are asking for are as far as reduced penalties, etc. are FOUND in WoW.. The things that you want to see that are NOT a hinderance to your gaming style are found in WoW. So if you not playing, then....why aren't you?
You guys think WoW invented catering to the masses??? Really do you? EQ, DAOC, AO, COH, ah hell pretty much every MMO ever made has made concessions to make their customer's happy. It's called running a business, and blizzard doesn't corner the market. People in EQ bitched about travel times, we got Plane of Knowledge. People in DAOC bitched about starting over from level 1 on alts. They got /level 20. The successful companies like I said adapt. You may not like it, but if you quit and 10 more replace you because they like it guess what, you lose. Lets try this... Somewhere in the world there is somebody that likes permanent death in their MMO's. I bet you don't. So how come your idea is so much more viable than the permanent death dude. Matter of fact he thinks your a pussy for not wanting permanent death. He thinks your a lousy ezmoder because you have all those fancy corpse runs. You'd think this guy was off his rocker and I guarantee you would argue with him that your right and he's wrong and tell him about your visits to bullshit factories and whatnot. Guess what he's not wrong, nor are you, nor am I. That is none of us are wrong unless we are the business in question trying to figure out which mechanic to use to stay afloat and not some armchairanians trading insults on a message board. Let's get one thing straight. I'll place good money that Brad understands the WoW phenomena and is working as hard as he can to make sure that his product appeals to those who are currently playing WoW as much as those that don't. And I don't mean those who just pop on message boards and talk McWoW smack. I'm talking the "majority". Those who just want a fun experience without the tedium of either old school EQ or boring as hell raid-until-you-drop WoW endgame.
So basically whether you want hardcore, or I want casual, or some other dude wants extreme hardcore, Brad and Co. I guarantee you are working hard on trying to appease all of us and I commend them for that. I can also guarantee you they wince everytime some extremist tells a potential customer to go play another game because they mistakenly think the game is being designed in "their" vision. wow...so let me try to understand this...you want a mob to be challenging..tough to beat...but the fear of losing or death
First of all don't change your tune now. Your not talking fear of losing OR death, you've just been talking death. I've made it perfectly clear that trying to conquer the encounter should be the main focus, not the artificial "timesink" of a corpse run. Losing and corpse runs are not the same thing.
shouldn't play a MAJOR role in a COMBAT situation?...I'm just gonna let that one go as the fact that there is waaaay too many avenues I go down to verbally pick apart everything that is wrong with that mentality as to it not making any sense whatsoever. Then my friend that is your problem if it's not making any sense. Because it makes sense to Sigil since they have options for death besides the old EQ corpse run. You've only went down one avenue that I've seen and that is corpse runs=challenge, no corpse runs=carebear. Hell, doesn't EQ now have options for corpses that they didn't have back in 2002? Did I ever specifically say that "EVERYBODY TURNS TO A GHOST AND RUNS TO THEIR CORPSE" is the only frickin' option? No, but you guys like I said butter every damn Vanguard-contrary comment with a big dollop of WoW hate.
To focus on 'i dont play WoW' just drives my point home even further in the 'you just do not get it' department. You try to get it..and it's a valiant effort, but still to no avail.
I get it just fine, go patronize someone who can't handle it, because as a debate tactic it's laughable at best. Espescially when Oh, and by the way, if you re-read I said "that I play WoW when I feel like it". Which last week I felt like, I had fun, now I'm playing DAOC again mixed in with WoW. Next week I might re-up my Eve account. You see the one true lesson I learned from EQ and SOE is don't get too attached to your characters. Have fun, when you stop having fun, move on. Come back if you feel like you can have fun again. All three of the above mentioned games provide both fun at times and boredom at times. I suspect Vanguard will be no different.
Now dont get me wrong, I know you obviously do not play WoW..I guess the reason I am bringing into the mix is because it has all that which you seek..Just trying to help..And I'll reiterate that Vanguard may not be for you then...that is what everyone is failing to accept and I think it is comical..I doubt the med times will be a pain so no worries there..but yeah, it'll have corpse runs unless you pay a toll I think..but be warned, the mobs will be mor elike in eq1 where taking one down takes several minutes..instead of like,say, EQ2 where you can take several down in one minute hehe. Thus using more abilities, more mana, and the possibility of more med time. If it is a bother to you, then the golden rule applies...This may not be a game for you. The whole "no med times are the modern way to do it and that's how it should be" just simply will not be the complete mentality of this game. And as wrong as you think it is, nothing is likely to change that. I agree with harsher penalties..you don't..but dont try to play me into thinking "the idea of this game mechanic" or somewhat who supports a certain mechanic is just "wrong" gaming wise. Your point is made on that, but I'm not buying it at all..nothing personal.
Nothing personal taken. I'm thinking though your going to be in for a bigger suprise than I am. See you guys think that Vanguard is going to replace your virtual hymen that got popped back in the EQ days. Once again I'm willing to bet that I'll be closer to right than you guys are in the long run. And this is not saying that Brad is caving in to the WoW hand-holders. It's called learning from past experience and I'm sure he recognizes mechanics that people "as a whole" don't particularly care for. Because if he doesn't then he definitely has a long row to hoe. Yes they game may even become another WoW clone, I hope not, but if this ever happens I will offer you the same advice, "This game may not be for you".
Also the golden rule is "treat others as you want to be treated" not "This game may not be for you". For the record, I'm not for instant med times and constant killing. I'm against the med times of Old EQ that everyone is harping about being the glory days. I'm going so far as to say people did not enjoy those long ass med times as much as they like to say they did. For all the words being crammed into my mouth, sadly, this is the one point I wanted to get across so I'll just end it with this....
In a long time coming nutshell, In my opinion, the glory days of EQ are not as glorious as our jaded memories would like us to believe. Serious mistakes were made and the worst thing Sigil could ever do, in my opinion, is make the same mistakes again.
Thanks for taking the time to debate this with me. While I agree I may be wrong and you also may be wrong I do appreciate the low-level amount of namecalling these things usually stir up.
P.S. I have no idea why I decided to use an orange font.
Edit: Nicely stated Wyzwun. You do realize that your dreams of appearing as the sophisticated gamer to the legions of drooling wow mouth breathers just took the hypocritical turn from hell?
I'll start with the "changing tunes" thing first. I'm sorry I didn;t be more specific..I thought just mentioning death would provide the fore thought of everything involved with the mechanic..when I mentioned it, I'm think of how all those formulas come together to fuse a combat system. If you can't see how challenge..fear of death..and the death penalty itself all come together to set up the preface that mentally goes through your mind when you are about to tackle something huge..then without being a smartass..let me explain where I am coming from on this:
You play an mmo. you get in a group..group gets wiped. It dawns on you that that just sucked! lol Happens, right? But where the magic of the system, for me, comes in, is now you have a preface set..you know in the back of your mind that fighting this tough mob (tough meaning more hp+more mana if applicable+more damage+more damage it can absorb) or any tough mob is a tall task..the preface in your mind sets an ominous tone..for me, the feelings were fear to go into an unknown place far away from the cities, knowing that if I die here..its REALLLLY going to suck. But to me that was the beauty of it. Yeah sometimes the death came at a most unfortunate time (level after the hell level) or what have you. But I believe it was there for a reason. And apparently Im not the only one that feels this way because Brad has made statements similar to Vanguard. I know, it has it set up so you dont have to do a corpse run, you just lose exp if you don't do it . And I support that..and there isn't any Winston Churchill speech that is going to convince me that one element (lighter death penalty) is greater than another (harsher one).
These were the things running through my mind when I said death only. Im sorry, I thought with your good ability to debate you would have gotten what I was driving at..That's not a knock..just, sorry I lost ya on that one
As you can tell, Im trying to be more civil because I love talking about stuff like this.
So anyway on to my next point:
I played WoW, I really REALLY tried to give a fair shot 3 different times. And the main thing I noticed was this:
Your in a group, you die lol..everyone pops back in front of the life avatar and pay a toll and poof, you're golden. Heres the kicker, I'd lay money down right now if I could take you to a lan party center downtown where I live and let you watch the groups..They are similar to what happens in my groups..which is at least 7 times out of 10..group pops back up after paying toll...group notices they are back near the convenient city..no CR required..so what do you think happens next? If you guessed, group disbands to do other things because they quickly lost interest after dieing, you would be correct.
Now for what I noticed back in EQ1 days..Your in a group, you die lol...Depending on if any type of corpse gathering classes were in your group (monk, thief, Necro, anyone with invis..unless in Kael or anyone that can see through invis its either monk or necro to the rescue) Which is another side point real quick..I enjoyed how some of the classes that would otherwise be seen as just dps or solo classes were thrown a bone to help with group/guild wipes..To me, a good death penalty just gives more opportunities for certain classes to feel important. Anyway, back to the main point...corpses are gather after the wipe, if cleric, then rezz..everyone is assembled once again..but heres the kicker for this comparison..everyone is assembled...in close vicinity where they died...and roughly 8 times out of 10 guess what happened? If you guessed, grouped decided to stay and give it another go to at least recover exp and extract revenge on mob that caused wipe, then you would be correct.
The point is, the run back gives you yet another chance to band together once your stuff is back in order and give it another run. And more times than NOT, most groups succeeded on the 2nd try. Especially in vindy raids and epic quest battles.
Im a deep thinker..so when I say death penalty..ALL of that runs through my mind as to why I think its important that it is in there..if you took my words at phase value and didn't try to comprehend where I am coming from, then I should have broke it down a little better..sorry
My problem with this issue comes from the "if good things are working in a game like WoW then its bad business not to include those in games that want to go a different direction" debate. And yes different direction, because in this world where no one wants to endure long traveling, cr's, and exp loss..including those actually are a breath of fresh air (once again I am thinking from the standpoint of what I said up top and think its important and worth the effort for fun groups). I'll go on record and say I have never bought into the "exp DEBT" feature...its just rearranged exp loss, plain and simple(you don't lose a whole lot of exp!!! but dont worry we are going to reduce your exp intake for a while; Translation: Exp Loss!)..ever made a Fire Blaster on CoH? You'll know what I mean lol. I think if you are looking for originality and outside the box effort to make games "challenging" and mobs "tough" then you have to do things that haven't been done yet. And since you in so many words conform to the idea that light slaps on the wrist when you make a mistake (as found in games like WoW) are "the norm" and "the best way to make an mmo right now" then thinking outside the box MAY just mean NOT doing any of that and going a different way. And before you seize the opportunity to say "I never said that"..yes you basically are until you clarify differently.
And Im sure you will counter this with the bad experiences you've had in the EQ1 scenario..but be honest with yourself..unless you just truelly had a run of bad luck while trying EQ (hey some people do..I can't count how many 'Asheron's Call is way better..Im glad I switched..'althought I am really not because I just had a bad experience in EQ or got yelled at in a group and am holding an eternal grudge over EQ and quickly found Asheron's Call to use as retaliation' threads I have seen ) Not saying that is you, it just reminded me of that all of a sudden. But anyway, be honest with yourself before you start tossing up "well thats not how it went down with my groups!" how many of those bads compare to the ones like I was just talking about? You know you have had those scenarios if you have played EQ for any length of time.
p.s. not to play Corrector, but the /level 20 thing in DAOC was introduced in a thread under the idea forum waaaay before most people were ever complaining about it..Oh Im sure there were some to justify your point, but not enough to where that THAT is what spawned the feature..it was a free bone toss, then once people got a hold of the news, THEN people starting bitching. I know I was there (surprisingly EQ isn't the only one I have ever played either ) It's like if you went around and said someone is getting a free gold ring...EVENTUALLY someone is gonna say "good cause the ring i have now sucks cause its dirty" that in turn spawns a bunch of "Hey I got a dirty ring, are you guys ever gonna give us a free one???!!" and the reply from the Dev is "yeah we are working on something just give us time" lol which was what they said in so many words....Peace
Comments
Actually, if you don't use voicechat, then you are inferior to players who use it. That's why guilds that focus on raiding or PvP (the most challenging IN-GAME tasks in MMOs) tend to require it. I'd even want it in a game that requires more medding because it is still more efficient and I get better socialization.
A tank can't hit his skills to keep the main pull on him while telling the back-up tank to get an add that he has spotted. If you are running along through an area and someone is about to run over a cliff or into an epic spawn, you can't type Stop!!! emphatically enough to get everyone to stop within the 3 seconds you have before the group gets wiped. I could go on and on with examples of how this effects gameplay and socialization (hearing people's tone allows you to know what they are saying is funny whereas it might read as simply silly if you typed it).
Still, if you don't want to use voice chat then that's your decision. I just wanted to point out to you some reasons why it is superior to text-chat.
You seem to have a knack of accusing some of us of mounting an "erroneous argument" because you don't happen to agree with what some of us are saying. I would point out that your POV is not necessarily the "right" one. If I were you I would stick to WoW. Vanguard is not a game you will enjoy based on the things you are saying. And as far as the voice chat thing goes, it's got nothing to do with inferiority. I get a headache when I've been on voice comms for too long, it's also unimmersive when you can hear someone's baby crying in the background etc. In some cases I would rather be subjected to the flames of hell than use TS (especially when you have 20 or 30 people all trying to talk at the same time).
If you had experienced the kind of socialization we are talking about, you would instantly understand it, but because you come from a game that is based on "teh ub3r twink" and "I pwned j00" and (Leeeeeerrroooooyyyyy Jeeeeeeennnnnnnkiiiiiiiiiinnnnssss), I don't expect you to understand the nuances of proper in-game communication. I'm not being nasty, just pointing out that you have to have experienced the things we are talking about here to be able empathize and you won't experience these aspects of MMO gameplay in WoW. It just was not developed with that in mind. It's the McDonalds of MMOs (Millions served with generic content)
I group with the same people all the time in the MMO world and I never need voice comms to do raids/instances. We have played together long enough to know that one must manage DPS, allow hate gain et al. Thats what comes of building up alliances through communication that exists in down time/travelling. I have no need to talk to them on voice whatsoever. We know the instance/RZ and we know how to play our characters.
@Peacedog : Thank GOD or whoever (I'm not religious) Sigil does not think the same way you do. You can keep your "revolutionary" MMO /vomits
Wow that was hateful. And wrong.
I've played at least 90% of every MMO ever made and that includes a great number of the crazy independent games like Seed, train wrecks like Horizons, and many of the extremely niche Eastern MMOs. I've also played many group-dependent, harsh death penalty MMOs because that's all that was available in the first generation of MMOs, and I even played FF XI (arguably a 2nd generation MMO though it also had long travel times, group dependency, and harsh death penalties).
Back in the day when you used to sit in place and med between pulls and grind together in groups, there was some degree of socializing, but not very much honestly as even back then you only had about a minute until your healer and mages gained back MP. However, you still couldn't talk as much as you can and as easily while using Teamspeak. . . If you joined a channel with 20 people talking over each other then you should move to another channel (or, if it is for a raid, then you need to change to an adult guild where people are polite enough to not talk over each other -except for the raid leader who can interrupt to give directives or call for silence during difficult pulls and boss battles, etc.) Also, if people have babies screaming in the background then you are in a guild that doesn't require that people use push-to-talk (VERY important).
Play with voice-chat in a good guild for a month and you'll recognize that it is better both for running groups and socializing. That's why serious raid and PvP guilds require it. You've obviously never been that successful in any of the games you've played past the first generation if you refuse to use voice chat.
I will advocate the main argument why peoples would tell you voice-chat is inferior:
It bring lag.
Lag kills group. Of course, there is a choice to make, do you prefer to lag and socialise more or you prefer to have a cleaner gaming experience and less socialisation?
The main troubles with voice chat will always be: LAG.
Also, voice-chat tend to allow easy talking to everyone, while lack of it usually leave it to the cleric. What is better, to have everyone talking or to have the cleric been having 50% of the options to talk as he have to med anyway, and can type quite well while medding.
- "If I understand you well, you are telling me until next time. " - Ren
well in the end, we can debate the features until the moon turns green..but in the end it is comforting to know that no matter how much you complain..WoW has already been created and this game isn't gonna be made into that because people feel it is too harsh or too group oriented. I like Brad's stance on it, and if you have failed to read it time and time again, its quite simple..This may not be the game for you. I love the fact that it almost seems like if you protest enough and condemn the game's fate as a success that some dev is gonna hear you and start making WoWVanguard. And I love that that is not going to happen. It's going to be tougher, regardless of whether you think it is wrong as to WHY it is tough (CR runs-exp loss-long traveling-not being able to solo past lvl 10). And the simple society that thinks getting a smack on the wrist when you die is the worst that needs to happen to them in WoW will be excited to know that WoW has an expansion coming out!!! So go play it!! Enjoy it!!!..shoo...git
If this game fails it wont be due to weak willed people complaining about the penalties..it'll be due to buggy quests and not being stable as an engine...if it can pull those things off without a hitch, it'll do just fine
With raid-free servers, it would be just perfect and sweet. Without raid-free servers; indeed it isn't a game for me. Yet, it isn't too late to bring raid-free server at release. I honestly hope that the folk(s) at Sigil will come to their senses and make raid-free servers, just like EQ mades PvE servers in it time.
EQ was successfull because of PvE servers. Vanguard need such an edge, atm it doesn't have it. Raid-free server could be that edge...
- "If I understand you well, you are telling me until next time. " - Ren
Anyone can pull the "Go play WoW" card or the "It gives time to regroup and socialize," bit, but is that not what RL is for? Either make time for socializing ingame that doesn't require my ingame character to sit on a stump and reflect for 7 minutes, or just concede to the easy way out, and make us wait to play this vast and epic title. I'm not hating on Vanguard. Personally, I'm more excited about it than any other title at this point, but don't make me wait. A quick download from teamspeak, and I can talk about anything freely WHILE fighting orcs. And don't tell me your computer lags while talking and playing, if this is the case, your computer will not be able to handle Vanguard. Don't take the social aspect out of an MMO, just make it possible without having to stop playing. That is all I can say for now, and no I haven't played Vanguard yet, I'm just hoping that tomorrow when the Open Beta SUPPOSEDLY opens, it will live up to the title of a 3rd Gen MMO.
Wow that was hateful. And wrong.
I've played at least 90% of every MMO ever made and that includes a great number of the crazy independent games like Seed, train wrecks like Horizons, and many of the extremely niche Eastern MMOs. I've also played many group-dependent, harsh death penalty MMOs because that's all that was available in the first generation of MMOs, and I even played FF XI (arguably a 2nd generation MMO though it also had long travel times, group dependency, and harsh death penalties).
Back in the day when you used to sit in place and med between pulls and grind together in groups, there was some degree of socializing, but not very much honestly as even back then you only had about a minute until your healer and mages gained back MP. However, you still couldn't talk as much as you can and as easily while using Teamspeak. . . If you joined a channel with 20 people talking over each other then you should move to another channel (or, if it is for a raid, then you need to change to an adult guild where people are polite enough to not talk over each other -except for the raid leader who can interrupt to give directives or call for silence during difficult pulls and boss battles, etc.) Also, if people have babies screaming in the background then you are in a guild that doesn't require that people use push-to-talk (VERY important).
Play with voice-chat in a good guild for a month and you'll recognize that it is better both for running groups and socializing. That's why serious raid and PvP guilds require it. You've obviously never been that successful in any of the games you've played past the first generation if you refuse to use voice chat.
ROFLMFAO, I won't bother to tell you which EQ2 guild I was in as I'm not going to name drop but they required voice for raids and I used it. Read my post again for a better understanding. Secondly, it was far from hateful, but whatever you say. I've been plenty succesful in the MMOs I've played, I just don't feel the need to brag it all over the forums. If you NEED voice chat to succeed, I would say that it is you that have never been particularly successful within the realm of MMOs.
Well I honestly dont think the downtime is going to be as bad and people are seemingly scared of. From what I have read they are trying to make it a perfect medium..nothing as slow as EQ1 and nothing as fast as EQ2...One thing you gotta realize is that as you level you are gonna gain more hp and mana (no duh) but couple that with the fact that the mobs arent going to be like EQ2 and go down like that...more like EQ1..where you might have to fight something for 4 or 5 minutes before bringing it down..thus using more of you abilities, thus draining your mana.etc.
I can't hate on Teamspeak too much, Im sure one day I'll have to get used to it..my point is..there hasnt been anything I have accomplished that I am proud of that I needed it for so far..two lvl 70's in eq1..4 epics..almost completely flagged..didn't have to use it there...EQ2, havent seen a need for it in groups yet..everyone seems to be just fine typing..I do see where tone of voice can really help though...I just dont want to get in a pick up group..have to configure some outside software just to get away from all the crafting guildies talking...to make a new channel for the pickup. We could have already been fighting by me saying "Pulling..ready?"...yeah go ahead...lol
But Im sure I'll pick it up eventually..I guess I still have bad occassions playing with one on xbox and hearing nothing but emmy award winners on the other end..burping..farting...saying jokes that simply ARE NOT funny..lol...yeah, somethings CAN simply remain on the chat bar.
Teamspeak and Ventrilo are great. I couldn't tell you how many times it had saved my (faction's) bacon on the battlegrounds of WoW. However, some of the most memorable times I had in the game were actually from text (especially from some of the broadcast text our raid leader would give after downing bosses for the first time).
Furthermore, as a 'Roleplayer', I've played just about every kind character under(and orbiting) the virtual suns. Honestly, my vocal cords just can't convey the range of voices (well, a mute or two isn't hard, but...) over voice communication without seriously breaking the immersion (or break out in laughing fits).
I guess the sum of my opinion is: Yes, an Audio medium of communication is great. Yet, a visual(or better yet instinctual) medium more than holds it's own weight.
- Hold not your expectations.
Lol its rather simple.
These WoW players are use to one cheif telling all the BBQ indians what to do... because its bad enuff that they have all these third party tools.... that tell them when to voke... or when to cast a spell but they also need some big indian to tell them lol when to pick up an add or when to heal... i mean shit why not, not play. just stick a bot in front of your char and go to sleep lol.
If you dont know how to act on certain encounters in certain situations you need to GTFO. IMO this whole voice chat thing took off with WoW because the player base is so stupid that they need have there hand held through every single detail... they are unable to function.
O yeah, im in one of the best guilds in one of the hardest MMO's on the market... GUESS WHAT WE DONT NEED VOICE CHAT.
http://nuke.ominous-ls.net/index.php
Rites of the Four Horsemen
http://www.rotfh.com
First Wyzwun, I'm well aware of what Sigil is doing about spawn camping (btw are the Titan guild of EQ fame?). I was making a point to all those that are drooling about going back to the EQ days that things weren't always as great as they used to be. I don't believe instancing has totally "ruined" mmo's. I do believe it has been detrimental to the "packed" dungeon feeling you used to get from the EQ days (Guk anyone?). I understand how Sigil is planning on addressing the issue so that you have the best of both worlds and I think it's a great idea.
Now to address you SeriphinX...
1. The wife and I alternated staying awake for a week so that no one would try and ninja her chance at getting Ragefire for the cleric epic. Yes I said a week and yes I did go to work on her shift. There is no worse game design in the entire history of gaming in my opinion than the EQ Cleric epic. This was sick, sadistic, and in NO way whatsoever challenging from a game perspective. When the challenge comes from me trying to stay awake so no one will steal the mob, that's not a challenge. We quit the game shortly afterwards. The sense of accomplishment, strangely enough, did not come to us. Just a deep sense of wasting a lot of fricking time. By the way, this is when I realized spending hours for a pixel was not worth it.
Why would it be an Epic if anyone could get one every 3 minutes? Epics were optional..no one asked you to go after it lol. Besides, don't you have to raid the same place over and over in WoW to get pieces of armor? Doesn't sound much different to me. I played WoW but I got bored with too easily...started when I made my first character when it first came out and made a Priest...then discovered for the next 20 levels that no one really needs me to heal lol. I just think EQ brought a sense of feeling important whatever class you were you had a certain niche that made you nice for a group. And necros were cool just because they were necros.
First of all, we're not talking one every 3 minutes. We're talking one cleric epic entering the server every 1-2 weeks. We spent 3 weeks helping other's in our alliance camp theirs. Not to mention the preliminary parts of the quest also required camping items days at a time. Yes, they were optional, hell playing the whole game is optional, what's your point? I told you I used to raid, and anyone who played EQ knew how important the cleric epic was to epic raiding. Could raiding happen without it? Sure. Did a lot of guilds require it? You bet they did. Once again, what does WoW have to do with this? I was discussing problems with the original EQ that people tend to forget in their blathering about how they want things to be "tough" again. You guys for all your bellyaching sure do have a lot of "WoW"-envy. I still stand by my statement that this quest was probably the worst designed in the history of MMO's. The bad blood this quest generated on all servers could probably set a record. You ever wonder why someone at SOE finally woke up and changed the damn thing?
2. 11pm, you die deep in the bowels of somewhere. You have to be at work at 7am. Choices are:
a. Stay up until you get your corpse, looking at at least another 2 hours.
b. Try to find a necro to summon corpse sometime before your corpse rots.
c. Try to find a rogue to stealth carry your corpse sometime before your corpse rots.
d. Let your corpse rot.
Once again, people may find this challenging but I agree with Dink that the challenge should be in the encounter and not the cleanup.
If you want the challenge in just the encounter..then what IS the challenge if you don't want to really die in any harmfull way. By challenge, do you mean super fast? strong? evil caster? hard to catch? other than that last one, how can any of these be a 'challenge' if you don't have to worry about what happens to you? It's like someone trying to feel good about themselves beating a game with a gameshark attached to the console.
Actually like Dink said the challenge should be the encounter. Why don't we start a thread on "Ways to make mob AI and encounters more challenging" instead of "Encounters are only tough if you fear death". That would definitely be more productive. I understand you may want the thrill of losing everything your character has because some jackass caused a wipe and you can't get your corpse (yes I'm putting implied words in your mouth) but to me the penalty is failure to complete the task. Let's face it, in every game I played once a group of people figure out how to kill something it becomes "farm status mode". For all intents and purposes this encounter is now old news and even dieing is not a problem no matter the penalty. Like Dink said, how about let people have the opportunity to test their mettle against the encounter instead of against the death penalty which he rightly said promotes the heavy use of external sources to complete (in my garage I have a file cabinet full of EQ printouts).
Finally, I'm not sure how your gameshark analogy matches what I'm even trying to say. Nobody is actually cheating trying to figure out an encounter just because the death penalty doesn't require you to spend the next 3 hours to retrieve your corpse. I mean if you didn't kill the damn thing it's still gonna be there no matter when you get your corpse back, waiting to be attempted again.
All you crows that keep caw-cawing "Socialize, Socialize". It's called Ventrilo or Teamspeak, ok? My wife sits next to me and she has more fun chatting with the guild on Vent than she ever did in chat text. She can be anywhere in the game, doing whatever and have, yep, you guessed it, FULL BLOWN CONVERSATIONS with people from around the globe. We currently have two brothers from Great Britain that currently live in Spain that are our two favorite people we ever met in a game. She loves the accents and they love ours. One of their sons about 8 years old or so my wife just adores because of his cute little accent and his unheard of in America manners. She is experience cultures, mannerisms and accents that a normal country girl would never have in the first place. Now that's socializing.
Headsets are neat..but don't try to pass gas as a rational thought such as if you use one then there is no need for down time..Sorry but I like planning and I like talking tactics before going at it...If Im grinding experience no of course not, but if we are grouped to take down something very fierce like Vindy...yeah I sort of want to get everyone together and discuss the plan. Whether you do it by typing or headset you are still gonna be stopped for a moment..but I go back to my 'instant gratification' arguement as to the reason that even this bothers people..hell even Leeroy Jenkins stood by to listen before running in
Plus I havent had a problem using the software (i.e. the chatbars) that the game came with without needing to download anything else or having any extra hardware to go along with it...I socialized just fine and am in no way inferior to someone using a headset lol. Nice try on that one but you need to sell that one free of charge.
Ok, we get the WoW references again. Like I said not really warranted. Playing smarter and using tools readily available is not "instant gratification". Let me give you an analogy that has nothing to do with WoW...
My father grew up poor, the middle of nowhere, and had one pair of shoes a year. He actually had to cross a river on a small bridge that flooded quite often just to get to school. Many times crossing the flooded river with his beloved shoes on his head. Then they invented this thing called a "bus" that finally was able to come to his remote home. My dad has the perfect "back in my day" story. He could sit around at family gatherings and told people how he wasn't going to use no "new-fangled" bus when he had perfectly good feet to cross that river with. I think you see where this is going.
Planning and strategy involve everyone in "real time" and "simultaneously". We all know that a lot can be lost in translation in text chat. If you enjoy text chat and absolutely hate the downsides of voice chat then I'm sure nothing I can say will change your mind. I think it's a handy tool that offers more in the lines of "convenience" rather than "instant gratification". Your not inferior by any means for using text chat. You may have taken some kind of implication that I said you were. If that I apologize. Once again I mentioned it as a tool for clarity and overall ease of communication. Not sure how that can be denied.
Then you have the Chatty Cathy's. Every guild I have been in on every game had at least one of these. These people so pestered by the dead space in guild chat when people are, you know, not wanting to chat but to play, that they can't stand it. They start spewing any and every kind of problem, whine, or general drudgery about their lives just because they believe they have a stage to grandstand on. Much easier to kindly tell these people by your voice inflections that you just don't give a shit than to say "Hey I don't give a shit" in text chat.
I like your point on this one...but there are guild whores wherever you go..especially those 'female' characters that like to be center of attention..and I've heard my fair share of it when I tried Ventrillo once..sorry but if Im in a group and communicating just fine via text..I don't need to constantly hear what some other group in my guild is doing at the time..which also includes the drama queens you spoke of. Then just turn it off while you are doing that, you say? Then what's the point of having it? lol
Vent has ignore features the same as regular chat. Some I'm not understanding where your going with this.
So no, I'm sorry, I don't need to be sitting on my ass watching a bar slowly fill up to actually socialize. We are way beyond that folks. I want to be playing the game not watching it. If you can't get to Bestbuy and get a $15-$30 headset then you maybe your not as serious about socializing as you pretend to be.
And it goes back to what I have said before..this game may not be for you then...but I refuse to hear "WoW is the way combat needs to be therefore I want it in any other game I play and if it's not there..I'm gonna post up Nostradamus style and say that the game will fail because I have to get a corpse or two....or three
Once again, WoW is brought into the conversation. The "sit for 5 minutes to med" game mechanic in my opinion is over with, done, period. It was tired "back in the day" and it's tired now. We all realized back in 2000-2001 that it was nothing more than a "timesink" meant to keep you subscribing longer. Look at the next patch for DAOC, they are reducing med time by 50%. This old-school game is adapting and it's not because of WoW. I would venture to say most people enjoy DAOC PvP way more than DAOC PvE. They were annoyed that this outdated "timesink" was still being used. Meaning DAOC PvE is not the most exciting (Although my wife does love the new Labyrinth zone added, but it is a PvE/PvP zone).
To make matters worse, every, and I mean every MMO I have played always had the classes that had the ability to bypass the med downtimes. Play a necro in DAOC, play a bard in EQ and you'll see what I mean. That's the problem with this game mechanic. With the various classes and skills a normal game has it makes it almost impossible to "balance" the game mechanics so that all classes share the same "timesink". So basically you end up with everyone having a power-leveling class. My mercenary in DAOC would take at least 30-45 minutes in a task dungeon that my necro could do in a third of the time.
Once again, I'm not bashing Vanguard and I'm actually keeping open eyes and mind on it's progress. I hope it succeeds. I'm skeptical that if it implements a lot of the things that people in this thread are rose-coloredly giving as examples of the perfect MMO, then it will be destined to fail. You may not like WoW, whatever, but we've definitely moved past EQ.
Case in point.
What case? My point with that last sentence was what I've been harping this entire post. Most responses here on about any subject always have someone tossing a jab to WoW. My post was discussing EQ and it's flawed mechanics, but you and several others keep acting like I want to make World of Vancraft. Let me help, the phrase "You may not like Wow"="I'm tired of this as a rebuttal". Neither of us want WoW part deux. If I want WoW I will play WoW. There sure as hell nothing wrong with taking stuff that works from any game and using it. How do you think WoW was so well done? For me the main thing I would love to see come from WoW would be the mail/auction system, anything else, whatever.
written by Sharkypal
@Peacedog : Thank GOD or whoever (I'm not religious) Sigil does not think the same way you do. You can keep your "revolutionary" MMO /vomits
I have no idea what the hell you are talking about. I'm assuming your using my post to make another whine about WoW with emotes and everything. Sure I'd like Sigil to listen to every idea I have so I could charge them for consulting. But who the hell is stupid enough to think their "opinions" are what an entire development team should listen too verbatim. It's called "looking for options" on how to make a better product that satisfies a relevant portion of your potential customer base. What's so "Revolutionary" about using game mechanics from a game nearly a decade old just to satisfy the "back in my day" crowd. As a developer, you now have a smorgasbord of ideas to pick and choose from to enhance your own unique game mechanics. Only a fool would not take advantage of that.
Once again thanks for taking the time to read this if you did. I enjoy having these little debates and my intentions were not to flame. If I did I apologize beforehand. But, If you want to respond with another "Go back to WoW" then my only response will basically be "Go to hell" and I'll continue to have discussions with people that actually have something important to say.
Thanks.thanks for education..I'll make sure to buy a huge crate of your 'knowledge' if I'm ever driving by the bullshit factory and have nothing to do.
To focus on 'i dont play WoW' just drives my point home even further in the 'you just do not get it' department. You try to get it..and it's a valiant effort, but still to no avail.
I was using WoW as an example in my reply, bro...Not trying to physically PLACE you into that game or call you a WoW'r..HOWEVER the things you are asking for are as far as reduced penalties, etc. are FOUND in WoW.. The things that you want to see that are NOT a hinderance to your gaming style are found in WoW. So if you not playing, then....why aren't you?
As for the reply to my reply of challenging mobs..well..that is just where I basically had to take a triple take on this one. I'm gonna take you quote that you made..that you obviously don't agree with and just look at it for a second:
"Encounters are only tough if you fear death."
wow...so let me try to understand this...you want a mob to be challenging..tough to beat...but the fear of losing or death shouldn't play a MAJOR role in a COMBAT situation?...I'm just gonna let that one go as the fact that there is waaaay too many avenues I go down to verbally pick apart everything that is wrong with that mentality as to it not making any sense whatsoever. Not to mention the lack of comprehension involved for even thinking that which leads to my gameshark analogy..and if you don't get that..I don't know what to tell ya man (I'll give you a hint.it wasn't implying cheating) It was a reflective statement suggesting that a majority of people don't want to play anything that might cause a little bit of frustration or...RISK. Has society really gotten this weak that not only does life has to always be easy with no problems but now the frick'n video games have to follow suit as well?
Now as for the teamspeak statement that you said you didn't know where I was going..it's called "I was agreeing with you." No frills, just..a good point!! Why does everything have to have a fuck'n catch with some of you people.
Now dont get me wrong, I know you obviously do not play WoW..I guess the reason I am bringing into the mix is because it has all that which you seek..Just trying to help..And I'll reiterate that Vanguard may not be for you then...that is what everyone is failing to accept and I think it is comical..I doubt the med times will be a pain so no worries there..but yeah, it'll have corpse runs unless you pay a toll I think..but be warned, the mobs will be mor elike in eq1 where taking one down takes several minutes..instead of like,say, EQ2 where you can take several down in one minute hehe. Thus using more abilities, more mana, and the possibility of more med time. If it is a bother to you, then the golden rule applies...This may not be a game for you. The whole "no med times are the modern way to do it and that's how it should be" just simply will not be the complete mentality of this game. And as wrong as you think it is, nothing is likely to change that. I agree with harsher penalties..you don't..but dont try to play me into thinking "the idea of this game mechanic" or somewhat who supports a certain mechanic is just "wrong" gaming wise. Your point is made on that, but I'm not buying it at all..nothing personal.
@ Peacedog
Maybe you don't play WoW but it sure sounds like you are advocating for a game LIKE WoW. That was the whole point of my previous comment. We don't need another game like WoW!
Nuff said!
S T A Y I N W O W
HTTP://WWW.WORLDOFWARCRAFT.COM
they have a brand new expansion coming out, glider is adding new tools and apps by the day to help you in playyyy err NOT play the game! kkthnxbye
Rites of the Four Horsemen
http://www.rotfh.com
It isn't my computer that is lagging, but when peoples are using teamspeak, they experience LAG. Denying it doesn't change that fact. I also rather socialise with the peoples in the house here while I play a MMO, than to whichever geek using teamspeak (aka, I rather socialise with peoples I CHOOSE to live with, then with some geek sharing my past time). See, life doesn't stop when you play a MMO, and unless you are soooo very lonely, you are going to talk with peoples and answer the phone while playing your MMO. Now, having someone that tell a joke about whatever nonsense on teamspeak, while you are answering the phone, that is annoying, so you turn the teamspeak volume off, then back on...all while substaining more lag?
Ridiculising peoples who complain about the LAG teamspeak add to a game isn't going to help your get your point accross. Lag can be due to several factor, and automatically attacking the computer of someone who is talking about VANGUARD is quite silly indeed, did you even bother to read the specs to play Vanguard? Than what make you think it would be the user computer that will bring lag? Fact is, 99% of the lag I experience is either linked with my internet provider, with the server in california or some other external source. See, a good MMO only exchange minimal amount of info with a user computer anyway, so the user computer is running the game from a crude sketch, the server should pretty much run bland stuff and indicate their facing, like a brown vertical line, a green vertical line and so on for the players...that is what a server does, a player computer convert all this into a sweet looking environment. As shown by CoH, it doesn't matter if there are slight distinctions between what player A and player B sees, as long as the monster is in the same spot, using the same spells and having the same facing, can't care less if it is actually different models of monsters.
IF I would choose to play Vanguard (not the case atm), I would go buy a new computer, and I would still refuse teamspeak, for LAG reason. Not to forget, that it is easier to upload a virus and affect a player computer throught teamspeak, than throught Vanguard. I am sure it is possible throught Vanguard...but heck, that is extremely complicated...throught teamspeak? Errr, go away evil virus bringer! It is almost as bad as Messenger, almost...
Teamspeak add a 3rd party software, not included in the MMO, with it own "servers/routers"...and you tell me it doesn't bring any lag? The power gamer I am tell you to: STFU NOOB!
I will use a "teamspeak" when it is INCLUDED into the MMO, not a 3rd party that will bring lag on my gaming session. Can I be any more direct?
- "If I understand you well, you are telling me until next time. " - Ren
That right there is even why Brad has commented on Vanbois in a negative light. I'm trying to discuss a subject where I don't believe I have made any points that were either incoherent , extraordinary or non-viable and this is what I get. Look, if this is your idea of how you want to discuss making a better game then I can leave you guys to it and you can pretend I never said anything. Blind faith usually deals with it's proponents in a most deliciously wicked way so I could give two shits. If you want to have a discussion, then I'm all ears.
To focus on 'i dont play WoW' just drives my point home even further in the 'you just do not get it' department. You try to get it..and it's a valiant effort, but still to no avail.
I was using WoW as an example in my reply, bro...Not trying to physically PLACE you into that game or call you a WoW'r..HOWEVER the things you are asking for are as far as reduced penalties, etc. are FOUND in WoW.. The things that you want to see that are NOT a hinderance to your gaming style are found in WoW. So if you not playing, then....why aren't you?
You guys think WoW invented catering to the masses??? Really do you? EQ, DAOC, AO, COH, ah hell pretty much every MMO ever made has made concessions to make their customer's happy. It's called running a business, and blizzard doesn't corner the market. People in EQ bitched about travel times, we got Plane of Knowledge. People in DAOC bitched about starting over from level 1 on alts. They got /level 20. The successful companies like I said adapt. You may not like it, but if you quit and 10 more replace you because they like it guess what, you lose.
Lets try this...
Somewhere in the world there is somebody that likes permanent death in their MMO's. I bet you don't. So how come your idea is so much more viable than the permanent death dude. Matter of fact he thinks your a pussy for not wanting permanent death. He thinks your a lousy ezmoder because you have all those fancy corpse runs. You'd think this guy was off his rocker and I guarantee you would argue with him that your right and he's wrong and tell him about your visits to bullshit factories and whatnot. Guess what he's not wrong, nor are you, nor am I. That is none of us are wrong unless we are the business in question trying to figure out which mechanic to use to stay afloat and not some armchairanians trading insults on a message board.
Let's get one thing straight. I'll place good money that Brad understands the WoW phenomena and is working as hard as he can to make sure that his product appeals to those who are currently playing WoW as much as those that don't. And I don't mean those who just pop on message boards and talk McWoW smack. I'm talking the "majority". Those who just want a fun experience without the tedium of either old school EQ or boring as hell raid-until-you-drop WoW endgame.
So basically whether you want hardcore, or I want casual, or some other dude wants extreme hardcore, Brad and Co. I guarantee you are working hard on trying to appease all of us and I commend them for that. I can also guarantee you they wince everytime some extremist tells a potential customer to go play another game because they mistakenly think the game is being designed in "their" vision.
wow...so let me try to understand this...you want a mob to be challenging..tough to beat...but the fear of losing or death
First of all don't change your tune now. Your not talking fear of losing OR death, you've just been talking death. I've made it perfectly clear that trying to conquer the encounter should be the main focus, not the artificial "timesink" of a corpse run. Losing and corpse runs are not the same thing.
shouldn't play a MAJOR role in a COMBAT situation?...I'm just gonna let that one go as the fact that there is waaaay too many avenues I go down to verbally pick apart everything that is wrong with that mentality as to it not making any sense whatsoever.
Then my friend that is your problem if it's not making any sense. Because it makes sense to Sigil since they have options for death besides the old EQ corpse run. You've only went down one avenue that I've seen and that is corpse runs=challenge, no corpse runs=carebear. Hell, doesn't EQ now have options for corpses that they didn't have back in 2002? Did I ever specifically say that "EVERYBODY TURNS TO A GHOST AND RUNS TO THEIR CORPSE" is the only frickin' option? No, but you guys like I said butter every damn Vanguard-contrary comment with a big dollop of WoW hate.To focus on 'i dont play WoW' just drives my point home even further in the 'you just do not get it' department. You try to get it..and it's a valiant effort, but still to no avail.
I get it just fine, go patronize someone who can't handle it, because as a debate tactic it's laughable at best. Espescially when Oh, and by the way, if you re-read I said "that I play WoW when I feel like it". Which last week I felt like, I had fun, now I'm playing DAOC again mixed in with WoW. Next week I might re-up my Eve account. You see the one true lesson I learned from EQ and SOE is don't get too attached to your characters. Have fun, when you stop having fun, move on. Come back if you feel like you can have fun again. All three of the above mentioned games provide both fun at times and boredom at times. I suspect Vanguard will be no different.
Now dont get me wrong, I know you obviously do not play WoW..I guess the reason I am bringing into the mix is because it has all that which you seek..Just trying to help..And I'll reiterate that Vanguard may not be for you then...that is what everyone is failing to accept and I think it is comical..I doubt the med times will be a pain so no worries there..but yeah, it'll have corpse runs unless you pay a toll I think..but be warned, the mobs will be mor elike in eq1 where taking one down takes several minutes..instead of like,say, EQ2 where you can take several down in one minute hehe. Thus using more abilities, more mana, and the possibility of more med time. If it is a bother to you, then the golden rule applies...This may not be a game for you. The whole "no med times are the modern way to do it and that's how it should be" just simply will not be the complete mentality of this game. And as wrong as you think it is, nothing is likely to change that. I agree with harsher penalties..you don't..but dont try to play me into thinking "the idea of this game mechanic" or somewhat who supports a certain mechanic is just "wrong" gaming wise. Your point is made on that, but I'm not buying it at all..nothing personal.
Nothing personal taken. I'm thinking though your going to be in for a bigger suprise than I am. See you guys think that Vanguard is going to replace your virtual hymen that got popped back in the EQ days. Once again I'm willing to bet that I'll be closer to right than you guys are in the long run. And this is not saying that Brad is caving in to the WoW hand-holders. It's called learning from past experience and I'm sure he recognizes mechanics that people "as a whole" don't particularly care for. Because if he doesn't then he definitely has a long row to hoe. Yes they game may even become another WoW clone, I hope not, but if this ever happens I will offer you the same advice, "This game may not be for you".
Also the golden rule is "treat others as you want to be treated" not "This game may not be for you". For the record, I'm not for instant med times and constant killing. I'm against the med times of Old EQ that everyone is harping about being the glory days. I'm going so far as to say people did not enjoy those long ass med times as much as they like to say they did. For all the words being crammed into my mouth, sadly, this is the one point I wanted to get across so I'll just end it with this....
In a long time coming nutshell, In my opinion, the glory days of EQ are not as glorious as our jaded memories would like us to believe. Serious mistakes were made and the worst thing Sigil could ever do, in my opinion, is make the same mistakes again.
Thanks for taking the time to debate this with me. While I agree I may be wrong and you also may be wrong I do appreciate the low-level amount of namecalling these things usually stir up.
P.S. I have no idea why I decided to use an orange font.
Edit: Nicely stated Wyzwun. You do realize that your dreams of appearing as the sophisticated gamer to the legions of drooling wow mouth breathers just took the hypocritical turn from hell?
I have been reading Peacedog's intelligent posts and lamenting the fact that no game developer will ever read them and take them to heart. He is 100% correct in everything he has said so far, and the only people I see in opposition to him are the same people that think time = skill.
Also, TeamSpeak or Vent causing lag? Please. Anyone that says Voice comms. are not needed has obviously never competed against a guild or team that uses them.
Errr, I think I use my brain more when I TRY something, then when I read on FoH forums. When I SOLO a rune (for a level 65 spell) on my own and figure a place to camp them, I was happy...and someone couldn't have read that on the net and benefit from it long enough before they "nerf it".
Either way, personnally I find the XP penalty in EQ to be laughable. Yet, it seems to be killing the casuals, I hardly see what it brings. I will run ahead and try something impossible, XP penalty or not. I will use my brain FAR more than if I would search the internet...searching the internet is refusing to go throught the intellectual process of actually understanding the game mechanic yourself. Some days in old EQ I died 20 times, and I still make over 10 AAs these days, way back in early 2003, when I was still playing EQ. 20 deaths without a rez would have meant losing like 4 levels, but with rez it was losing a yellow, which is a joke considering that each AA is also a yellow. Haha, at peaks moment, I refuse rez because they would have made me OOM and I was earning XP faster anyway than I could lose, at PEAKS moments only, still...Understanding YOURSELF, with the tools you have, THAT is using your brain...reading FoH website...errr...that is killing everything between your ears!
In some groups I was main puller and chain pulling, main CC, main DPS, main slower, and it was FUN. I like been the shining star and figure new way to face the challenges in a game. I ain't exactly a pocket chanter some peoples would expect from a chanter having half the hps of any other group member because I didn't raid, and I honestly won't sit by. Not my type, I am a hero, I am a shining beacon, I am a star...or I try to at least! Peoples are welcome to group and join the fun, and I will accept to share some duties, reluctantly somedays however, depend on the mood. Pocket chanters are sweet and kinds and they often site on twice the hps I have, however, I don't envy them, not 1 single moment. Often I hear: "Please sit back and handle CC and buffs", somedays I may do it...depend on my mood, but I wouldn't count on that if I were you, I am far more likely to go open that door and run back behind the group and/or kite while I will mez/charm the adds, then proceed with AE tash and follow with slow! Clerics better be alerts! Noobs may perish! And if the mobs are stunnable and we have a wizard, I may very well bring 10-15 mobs despite the fact there are no other AE stunner and get the wizard in a happy nuking mood...first and foremost, the game has to be FUN. Careful snail progressers doesn't exactly enjoy my presence, but again, EQ was so harsh that the alternative was to wait...so I convert a few one to a more daredevil type of group. Harsh penalties may remove most risk from the game.
In another message I read that someone dislike ZONING but enjoys meditating? WTF, gimme zoning, I can cope with that, it is a lesser evil, medding? ROFL, I can cope with that, but it is definitely boring and draining away from the game. I was doing something else while my toon was meditating, if I play another game while I play your game, doesn't that mean that YOU fail? If to be entertained, I have to play another game at the SAME time, rofl, isn't that the WORST possible insult I can do to a designer?
And some peoples put a LOT of focus on CHALLENGE, personnally I like challenges, a LOT. If there is none, I will find some by doing something harder, that wasn't intended, that lowbies might think is stupid or rash, and often they are right, but sometimes it turns out that I UNDERSTAND and learn more about the game by succeeding at something new. But challenge is a side aspect, an addition, not the reason someone play a RPG. Someone who play a RPG is achieving, progressing, developping...challenges are welcome, but secondaries.
Fansie...Is that you....
I'll start with the "changing tunes" thing first. I'm sorry I didn;t be more specific..I thought just mentioning death would provide the fore thought of everything involved with the mechanic..when I mentioned it, I'm think of how all those formulas come together to fuse a combat system. If you can't see how challenge..fear of death..and the death penalty itself all come together to set up the preface that mentally goes through your mind when you are about to tackle something huge..then without being a smartass..let me explain where I am coming from on this:
You play an mmo. you get in a group..group gets wiped. It dawns on you that that just sucked! lol Happens, right? But where the magic of the system, for me, comes in, is now you have a preface set..you know in the back of your mind that fighting this tough mob (tough meaning more hp+more mana if applicable+more damage+more damage it can absorb) or any tough mob is a tall task..the preface in your mind sets an ominous tone..for me, the feelings were fear to go into an unknown place far away from the cities, knowing that if I die here..its REALLLLY going to suck. But to me that was the beauty of it. Yeah sometimes the death came at a most unfortunate time (level after the hell level) or what have you. But I believe it was there for a reason. And apparently Im not the only one that feels this way because Brad has made statements similar to Vanguard. I know, it has it set up so you dont have to do a corpse run, you just lose exp if you don't do it
. And I support that..and there isn't any Winston Churchill speech that is going to convince me that one element (lighter death penalty) is greater than another (harsher one).
These were the things running through my mind when I said death only. Im sorry, I thought with your good ability to debate you would have gotten what I was driving at..That's not a knock..just, sorry I lost ya on that one
As you can tell, Im trying to be more civil because I love talking about stuff like this.
So anyway on to my next point:
I played WoW, I really REALLY tried to give a fair shot 3 different times. And the main thing I noticed was this:
Your in a group, you die lol..everyone pops back in front of the life avatar and pay a toll and poof, you're golden. Heres the kicker, I'd lay money down right now if I could take you to a lan party center downtown where I live and let you watch the groups..They are similar to what happens in my groups..which is at least 7 times out of 10..group pops back up after paying toll...group notices they are back near the convenient city..no CR required..so what do you think happens next? If you guessed, group disbands to do other things because they quickly lost interest after dieing, you would be correct.
Now for what I noticed back in EQ1 days..Your in a group, you die lol...Depending on if any type of corpse gathering classes were in your group (monk, thief, Necro, anyone with invis..unless in Kael or anyone that can see through invis its either monk or necro to the rescue) Which is another side point real quick..I enjoyed how some of the classes that would otherwise be seen as just dps or solo classes were thrown a bone to help with group/guild wipes..To me, a good death penalty just gives more opportunities for certain classes to feel important. Anyway, back to the main point...corpses are gather after the wipe, if cleric, then rezz..everyone is assembled once again..but heres the kicker for this comparison..everyone is assembled...in close vicinity where they died...and roughly 8 times out of 10 guess what happened? If you guessed, grouped decided to stay and give it another go to at least recover exp and extract revenge on mob that caused wipe, then you would be correct.
The point is, the run back gives you yet another chance to band together once your stuff is back in order and give it another run. And more times than NOT, most groups succeeded on the 2nd try. Especially in vindy raids and epic quest battles.
Im a deep thinker..so when I say death penalty..ALL of that runs through my mind as to why I think its important that it is in there..if you took my words at phase value and didn't try to comprehend where I am coming from, then I should have broke it down a little better..sorry
My problem with this issue comes from the "if good things are working in a game like WoW then its bad business not to include those in games that want to go a different direction" debate. And yes different direction, because in this world where no one wants to endure long traveling, cr's, and exp loss..including those actually are a breath of fresh air (once again I am thinking from the standpoint of what I said up top and think its important and worth the effort for fun groups). I'll go on record and say I have never bought into the "exp DEBT" feature...its just rearranged exp loss, plain and simple(you don't lose a whole lot of exp!!! but dont worry we are going to reduce your exp intake for a while; Translation: Exp Loss!)..ever made a Fire Blaster on CoH? You'll know what I mean lol. I think if you are looking for originality and outside the box effort to make games "challenging" and mobs "tough" then you have to do things that haven't been done yet. And since you in so many words conform to the idea that light slaps on the wrist when you make a mistake (as found in games like WoW) are "the norm" and "the best way to make an mmo right now" then thinking outside the box MAY just mean NOT doing any of that and going a different way. And before you seize the opportunity to say "I never said that"..yes you basically are until you clarify differently.
And Im sure you will counter this with the bad experiences you've had in the EQ1 scenario..but be honest with yourself..unless you just truelly had a run of bad luck while trying EQ (hey some people do..I can't count how many 'Asheron's Call is way better..Im glad I switched..'althought I am really not because I just had a bad experience in EQ or got yelled at in a group and am holding an eternal grudge over EQ and quickly found Asheron's Call to use as retaliation' threads I have seen
) Not saying that is you, it just reminded me of that all of a sudden. But anyway, be honest with yourself before you start tossing up "well thats not how it went down with my groups!" how many of those bads compare to the ones like I was just talking about? You know you have had those scenarios if you have played EQ for any length of time.
p.s. not to play Corrector, but the /level 20 thing in DAOC was introduced in a thread under the idea forum waaaay before most people were ever complaining about it..Oh Im sure there were some to justify your point, but not enough to where that THAT is what spawned the feature..it was a free bone toss, then once people got a hold of the news, THEN people starting bitching. I know I was there (surprisingly EQ isn't the only one I have ever played either
) It's like if you went around and said someone is getting a free gold ring...EVENTUALLY someone is gonna say "good cause the ring i have now sucks cause its dirty" that in turn spawns a bunch of "Hey I got a dirty ring, are you guys ever gonna give us a free one???!!" and the reply from the Dev is "yeah we are working on something just give us time" lol which was what they said in so many words....Peace