I guess it depends what side of the isle you’re on. But having played WoW in Beta and since launch and BC Beta. I am not a real hardcore player but some one that plays enough to get EPIC rewards. I have never liked the fact that I had to spend hours and hours depending on other people to show up and stay for a RIADs. So I was always understood what casual player’s complaints were. This is a game for entertainment, not a sport. When you have to work at something like a job it looses its appeal. I could type 500 pages on what is wrong with this game and most of it is the people that play it. Not that people don't have the skill to play WoW, because it takes very little to do so, and they are little cry babies.
With the changes to the battlegrounds and rewards, and when BC come out. I feel that all the time and effort that I put into the game is going to be erased, not really erased but just go unnoticed. I will give it a try when it comes out, but my new x360 "Assassin's Creed" and other MMORPG like Warhammer Online : Age of Reckoning and Age of Conan look more appealing to me atm. Every single MMO has a end to it, and it is the same, if the fun factor ever is gone then the game is done, and doing the same stuff over and over and over, is not fun to me.
i quit wow along time ago, detested the pvp grind and its ignorant decay model, and with seething hatred cursed the sony employees that coninued the raid model development in wow.
that said, it does give me some bit of satisfaction to see the developers (HAVE) to cave in to the largest part of the demographic, the casual crowd. a business model modified so that wow will survive (they hope) when the other mmo's come out in 2007.
and what is with the mindset that to me is laughable at best, that if you spend the time (grind hours and hours) or get in the uber natzi (yes,yes complain to your congressman about the natzi remark) raid guild to farm for months, YOU, deserve the "stuff". let me tell you something that may come as a shock to some of you "hardcore leeters" playing that long or that many months for one item tells the majority of the folks playing one thing, and blizzard itself said it best on southpark................
i will clarify my next statement, to those that think they are casual, get lucky and get into a guild with some common sense and run raids regularly and you get lucky and get a bunch of whatever item, you are the exception, and you label yourself casual, your not, your lucky, and there isnt anything wrong with that, if you fail to show up, fail to do this you lose standing points and your spot in the item list. which is the case most of the time, again i do say there are exceptions. arguments are made on the boards "i only play an hour a day or 2 hours a week and have all the nax gear so its possible for casual players to do it" again, your simply lucky or milking your guild members.
back to the respect thing. to the folks that have a full time job, that actually spend time with family instead of closed off in the computer room for hours or days, you know who you are, balancing all of this and actually sticking with wow, you are finally being paid attention to by the developers and well deserved.
to the hardcore leeters that think this or anything else regarding a positive decision for casual players takes away from "their" accomplishments, regardless of your age, i say to you please, there is something other than mindless grinding, friends, family, and i am sure your work, if you have a job is at stellar levels. folks make commercials or embarrassing cartoons of this kind of behaviour for a reason, and its not to flatter you hardcore leeters, its to make fun of you, and let me tell you i laugh alot when i see one.
the simple fix for the grinders and raiders, have the developers make one of, never to be gotten again items, no matter how many times or with how many different people, should satisfy the uber guilds, take that raid party in there for a few months, 40 folks battling out it to finally get to the end (sounds like an epic struggle....get your blood pumping does it?!) , for one single piece of unique gear that will never ever drop again, one time, thats it, over! now thats a prize for you grind or raid fanatics to trash talk about to those casual folks................
can you smell that?!!...............there is nothing quite like it.....................the smell of troll in the morning............i love that smell.
It is people or kids like this this that ruin the game. Most people play the game to have fun. People think that being hardcore in a video game puts you up on the food chain. Wake up call. IT DOESNT. It just proves that you have nothing constructive to do with your time. AKA job or collage. Rewarding a hardcore gamer is only saying that having no life is good. But in the real life it doesnt mean nothing. I like the new changes. Even though I was exalted in all 3 before the patch. I couldnt invest enough time to get the rank gear. I laugh when a tier2 or tier3 warr charges and doest hamstring. Remember that WOW is pve first then PVP thrown in with no end game objectives. Wow has to counter that WAR is coming up later this year. As most of us know WAR is pvp first with endgame pvp obectives. Where the hardcore raider will not make it there. I have no problem dealing with tier2 or 3 players. Most of them do not know how to pvp but relie on the gear to make up for lack of skill.
It's casuals like you that know i speak the truth and get so upset at what i say. If i'm not so high on the food chain than what does it matter to you? Construction? I work 40-50+ hours a week and still find time to both raid, and own you in pvp as stated in my previous posts. You will come back saying that i am 10 years old and don't know what i am talking about and that i am some elitest jerk, which is fine because you mean nothing to me and most likely never will. "Hardcore' is not just raiding, it's a way of life. I'd wipe my floor with you in pvp and pve if it was not such a disgrace to my floor. I play the game to have fun aswell, but being a 'hardcore' player i get the added bonus of stomping on kids or people like you that think i am trying to prove something.
Lets recap: I play for #1 Fun, #2 Sense of accomplishment, #3 teamwork and close friends, #4 hanging out in hillsbrad feilds killing low lvl horde with 5000+pyroblast crits. You have fun your way, i will have fun mine, i dont' have to agree with you and can make my opinions about the game AND SO CAN YOU we both are neither are right or wrong because there is allways two sides you can look at it from.
You can beleave me or not, it makes little difference. but some of us have a life and job that is good enough to be able to not be high strung stressed out about a game
The changes made by Blizzard still require you to grind for tokens/ honor to get the gear. This helps the gamer who is not in guild that raids frequently or PvPs alot. Now, instead of going to raid and possibly getting a shot of something that drops between 39 other raiders, you now have a chance to at least get decent epic gear even if you are not in a guild. Does this diminish the fact that a player played/ grinded themselves to GM? Not at all. That's why you have the option of showing the last PvP rank attainted. The only problem I see (and it's really it's not a problem, more of an annoyance) is that your have PvE'ers joining BGs and having no clue of what's going on. No worries though, I'm going to check out Vanguard: SoH when it comes out.
Finally! An article by someone I can relate to! It even gave me some understanding of people I can't relate to (hard core gamers).
A hard core gamer is getting the same accomplishment out of his MMORPG experience that I get out of my job, family, and sports. No wonder they get so mad when they see someone spend a hundred bucks and buy a 1000g.
I play for fun and I am lucky to have 8 hours in a week to play. But its casual people who make something like WOW possible. I pay for three accounts every month (niece and brother-n-law), thats the money that pays for all this development.
Maybe I'll try the BG's out...after I get to 70. I won't have time to play before the expansion comes out because I have work, parties, and sports between now and then.
It all started with a lantern, a sword, and a trap door...
I think this move was a great step in the right direction. Let's face it...you can't serve two masters... either a game is designed for casual players, with easy entry, simple controls and a more basic feel...or it contains extreme depth, long grinds (for some) and rewards long playing times over everything else.
WoW has always been for the causal player...the hardcore should really consider another game more to their favor. Many hardcores already have in fact, moving to games such as EvE and others. Let there be one game out there for casual players....
I always felt they should make a game where players could not play more than 4 hours in a 24 hour period, and no more than 20 hours in a week.... hardcore need not apply....
Yes, it will work. In the early days of MMORPG's..it was the harcore players, all 100, 000 or so per game of them who supported it. But with the coming of WoW, where I'd venture to say at least 1.5 million or more of their 2 million US membership (forget China) are casual players... so why not make the game more to their liking.
Its not about whether some hardcore player can wipe the field with everyone (like that one clown on this forum keeps posting) its about whether or not people will keep paying subscription fees. The more who do..the better it is for the developer..and the game itself. (BTW..claiming to be the best at WoW pvp.. lol... you suck... you'd be destroyed by people in other games)
Hardcore players are fickle...they move on pretty quickly to the next new thing... casuals are more likely to stay with a game to experience the content they've not completed/mastered..or hang with friends....
BTW... I consider myself somewhat hardcore, I play on average about 30 hours a week (my wife swears its much more) and I tired of Wow and decided to move on .... but I don't begrudge the causual players a chance to play a competitive game, have fun..and maintain some semblence of a normal life.
MMO's can be fun for the player who only has 12 hours a week too you know....
Just trying to live long enough to play a new, released MMORPG, playing New Worlds atm
Fools find no pleasure in understanding but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV
Don't just play games, inhabit virtual worlds™
"This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon
I don't PvP so where are my casual epics? One might say it is not real PvP at all, rather a massive honor farming fest, but still...
There is no part of WoW that does not require farming... so yea that should be nothing new to you. The issue here is what you have to DO while putting in your time. For those whose brain's go numb and eyes bleed when they see the same instance for the 20th time... but who don't mind running PvP instances (as they are at least a TOUCH different game to game), well this allows a more palletable grind.
I don't know if there is a way to remove WORK from REWARD, even in a game... and honestly I don't know if I would want to play such a game anyway. The important part is making the "work" side enjoyable enough to do and making the "reward" side worth the investment.
WORK | GRIND =/= Fun
Many people justify the need for hard work to get an epic item by saying "EPIC means EPIC effort".
I say that's bullshit. EPIC effort should mean EPIC FUN! EPIC should be EPIC difficulty, but difficulty =/= grinding. Grinding is a simple time sink that the companies put into their games to keep you subscribed. Designing something that is based on grinding for honor/reputation/items does not require creativity.
Ok, they designed an armor upgrade quest. It could have been fun if the results were worthy of the effort, but the upgraded stats are just slightly better than those of the old items.
I guess Blizzard is aware of the issue because - as far as I know (I may be wrong, I only say what a guildmate and friend told me about his experience in TBC beta) - some of the Burning Crusade quest items/drops are actually better than T2 items so player like me who don't like the grinding/pvp'ing aspect of the game (I'm a questing freak so bear with me) will have a chance to catch up with the raiding guys.
Btw, I agree this was a positive patch. The fact that it does not offer anything to non-PVP'ers does not detract from its positive effects.
Too bad, MMORPG's have not evolved to the point yet where dynamic content dominates the max level end-game, offering fun for all playstyles. Hell, people may argue that it is something that is nearly impossible to achieve, but the same could have been said about the MMO's of today just one decade ago.
It's posts like this that make me want to punch babies.
This kind of move by Blizzard does nothing but degrade the people who put in actual effort to attain the necessary faction to have earned epic rewards.
This casual vs. raider is a tired argument and ultimately, the direction of Blizzard currently will drive away hardcores because the poor, whiney casuals who think they're ENTITLED to the same rewards as those players who put in more effort, more hours, and undoubtedly more skill (read: have more experience) demand Blizzard cater to them exclusively.
You want a casual game, go play phucking Sim City and GTFO of my MMO. I'm trying to actually achieve something...unlike you.
So people who have families, jobs, and actual real lives don't deserve something for the time and effort they put in? I mean honestly WoW is heavily lopsided to people who have nothing but free time on their hands which is bad in the long term. Granted they should of done something for those that have been in it since the beginning such as offer some free points, or a free random item or enchantement but they didnt' and you can't blame that on the players that actually do something other than sit online all day. there's still going to be plenty of gear out there that the casual player can't get a hold of because they dont have the time or maybe even the want to go into the same 40 man dungeon 10 or 15 times to get it so whats the big boo hoo about honestly?
Please Refer to Doom Cat with all conspiracies & evil corporation complaints. He'll give you the simple explination of..WE"RE ALL DOOMED!
I really think that patch is the most stupid thing ever.
Why ?
I manage to play high end raid farming Mc,BWL,AQ40,Naax and now they give reward to anybody who just farm BG ...
I don't like PVP and i feel spoiled when i see my silithus shaman faction reward and the PVP R14 shaman weapons ...
So what is the problem, do it too ...
I don't like pvp as i say, and i will not do pvp just for a reward ...
And ...what Can think all the ppl who are really Rank 14 and proud of it and see any reroll able to have the same gears than them ?
I have a fell of "Deja vu" when i see those reward you can buy with honor and mark...
Where i saw that already ...hummm oh yes LDON for EQ1 one of the patch what killed EQ1
This is not a flam post, just ... somebody with a lot of deception than they give out epik high end gear just while farming BG few days.
That's why i decided to stop WOW now, before BC will come, and focus on Vanguard beta.
That game is great i have the gameplay back from EQ1 and when i log to WOW to say hello to some friend ... i just find it Ugly, very small and without interest anymore
(And sorry for my bad english it is not my native english)
Yes, it will work. In the early days of MMORPG's..it was the harcore players, all 100, 000 or so per game of them who supported it. But with the coming of WoW, where I'd venture to say at least 1.5 million or more of their 2 million US membership (forget China) are casual players... so why not make the game more to their liking.
K buddy if your gonna talk like you are than use the real numbers, 7million players, not: oh 1 million of these people, or oh lets not include mexico. the game is the same for all 7million. recompute.
I really think that patch is the most stupid thing ever.
Why ?
I manage to play high end raid farming Mc,BWL,AQ40,Naax and now they give reward to anybody who just farm BG ...
I don't like PVP and i feel spoiled when i see my silithus shaman faction reward and the PVP R14 shaman weapons ...
So what is the problem, do it too ...
I don't like pvp as i say, and i will not do pvp just for a reward ...
And ...what Can think all the ppl who are really Rank 14 and proud of it and see any reroll able to have the same gears than them ?
I have a fell of "Deja vu" when i see those reward you can buy with honor and mark...
Where i saw that already ...hummm oh yes LDON for EQ1 one of the patch what killed EQ1
This is not a flam post, just ... somebody with a lot of deception than they give out epik high end gear just while farming BG few days.
That's why i decided to stop WOW now, before BC will come, and focus on Vanguard beta.
That game is great i have the gameplay back from EQ1 and when i log to WOW to say hello to some friend ... i just find it Ugly, very small and without interest anymore
(And sorry for my bad english it is not my native english)
Hahaha, had some good laughs reading this thread...
I like the new patch thingie, but that aside, it was realy calling for this kind of vocal response... you can't realy hold it against HCers when they are mad, it's like you go to school and coledge and you bust your ass at work to afford a house and a car and when you finaly get it, there comes a new law where anyone who finishes comunity coledge gets (maybe not a mercedes like you) a lexus and an apartment for free...
Well, since I find the PvP boring both pre and post patch, I'm just going to keep hoping that WoW's new expansion caters to what made this game fun originally: The PvE experience. I'm seriously hoping the new expansion has a doubling of PvE content and regions, not just some 1-20 level questing options for the two new races and some 60-70 content for the high levels. If it doesn't, I am not continuing with this game; there are too many other new options looming on the horizon out there right now (Vanguard, Age of Conan, etc.)
But man, these hardcore players who get all worked up over their in-game accomplishments: I'll feel your pain while enjoying a pleasant evening with the opposite sex; if only I were willing to forego women, life, and self respect, I'd probably have some tier two epic gear, too. Darn that love of real life I have! More power to you guys who grind it in to oblivion....
It's posts like this that make me want to punch babies.
This kind of move by Blizzard does nothing but degrade the people who put in actual effort to attain the necessary faction to have earned epic rewards.
This casual vs. raider is a tired argument and ultimately, the direction of Blizzard currently will drive away hardcores because the poor, whiney casuals who think they're ENTITLED to the same rewards as those players who put in more effort, more hours, and undoubtedly more skill (read: have more experience) demand Blizzard cater to them exclusively.
You want a casual game, go play phucking Sim City and GTFO of my MMO. I'm trying to actually achieve something...unlike you.
I'm curious. What exactly are you trying to achieve? Cure cancer? Save mankind from aliens? Take over the world? Or gear a meaningless toon up in WoW? Get a grip, bud. I say good-riddance to the raiders, because they make up a very small population of any MMO.
I gotta admit you thinking you are achieving something by spending 40 hours a week in a game is pretty hillarious. You can do whatever you want, but don't be delusional by thinking anyone gives a rat's behind that you invest hundreds of hours into a game every month.
but nerfing the honor after all the "premades" got most of their stuff and after saying they wouldn't nerf it that made me not question my decision to cancel.
Sorry for the ignorance, but I keep hearing this term "premade". What is a "premade". I have an idea but I won't comment on it for fear of being entirely off center with it. Perhaps somebody can school me on this term?
It's posts like this that make me want to punch babies.
This kind of move by Blizzard does nothing but degrade the people who put in actual effort to attain the necessary faction to have earned epic rewards.
This casual vs. raider is a tired argument and ultimately, the direction of Blizzard currently will drive away hardcores because the poor, whiney casuals who think they're ENTITLED to the same rewards as those players who put in more effort, more hours, and undoubtedly more skill (read: have more experience) demand Blizzard cater to them exclusively.
You want a casual game, go play phucking Sim City and GTFO of my MMO. I'm trying to actually achieve something...unlike you.
I'm curious. What exactly are you trying to achieve? Cure cancer? Save mankind from aliens? Take over the world? Or gear a meaningless toon up in WoW? Get a grip, bud. I say good-riddance to the raiders, because they make up a very small population of any MMO.
I gotta admit you thinking you are achieving something by spending 40 hours a week in a game is pretty hillarious. You can do whatever you want, but don't be delusional by thinking anyone gives a rat's behind that you invest hundreds of hours into a game every month.
I agree with you on this.
So like, what if your computer crashes, or the WoW servers go down and the backups all burn up in some apocalyptic fire?! Well, this means now that you're not worth a hill of garbanzo beans to anybody because you don't really know who you're playing with anyway...it's not like RL friends and RL experiences. I’m sure some WoWers actually meet their fellow guild mates in RL, but the majority of folks do not nor do they even see their face for that matter. I'm not bagging on gamers or MMO gamers in particular for that matter, I'm a big one myself, but the bottom line is that we all game to have FUN and when gaming stops being FUN and turns into something like a job where you feel you need to ACHIEVE something and start having RL anxiety and depression spikes, I mean who’s playing who here…? MMO Devs want your money, that’s fine and even healthy for a good video game market, but don’t give them anything else……
Play the way you feel is appropriate, but try to remember that it's just a game.
I wonder what game you can name that gives an EPIC reward for anything less than an EPIC time commiment? Take... Football. What is the time commitment to win the SuperBowl? Heck, what is the time commitment to win a High School championship... or even one GAME? Basketball, Soccer, Baseball... yea just about any other game that is Multi-player is the same story. Even games like chess require a large time commitment in order to achieve any sort of good victory or skill. And some might consider playing chess a "grind", I mean you do just about the SAME THING every time you play right? The term "grind" should not be defined by the task alone, but by a measure of a) How enjoyable the task is, b) How MUCH of the task you have to do to achieve the reward, and c) The reward being significant enough. So, A + B = C means that I am not experiencing a grind. That means I would be willing to do an UNenjoyable task for a SHORT period of time to obtain a GOOD result, or a semi-enjoyable task for a longer period of time to obtain the same result. But, I would NOT be willing to do an unenjoyable task for a long period of time for said result. If you are looking for some story-book ending where a hardy group of adventurers go out and slay the dragon in a 1 in a million fight... then I can suggest LOTS of good books to read, perhaps even some singly player games that might work for you... but there has not been ONE mmo that has done this, and I don't even know if it fits the genre. If a game DID attempt it, then by default 1 million people would try the encounter and only ONE would succeed... giving them the epic story and the rest the natural defeat. It is just not so EPIC if everyone can do it every time without any work.
Bad example.
In basketball, soccer, baseball.... you win because you are BETTER than the other team, and not because you invested more time. In chess, you win because your brain works better than your opponent's. If two teams are equally skilled, then of course the one that put more time into practicing will have a better chance to win. Those people and teams deserve their rewards because, yeah, they were actually better than the rest.
But also, many people do sports because they enjoy the activity itself and their goal is not necessarily the World Championship. I know many people who play football, basketball, table-tennis, volley-ball and so on just for the fun of it. In chess the game seems to be repetitive, because all they seem to do is pushing chess-pieces - in reality it is the mental challenge they crave for, the challenge of outwitting the opponent, to figure out from the moves he made what he is up to. So the activity is rewarding in itself. Should not it be the same with MMO's?
With all MMO games, the developers are forced to make a decision early: which group of players they want to cater to? Those who say: skillz > time invested? Then they'll lose a bunch of players who say 'Bah, I do not have the reflexes of a hyperactive 10-year old kid, gimme something to grind'. Blizzard opted for the time sink based gameplay (which is good for them business-wise). They thought if we gave epics only to those who are the most skilled then after a while we would cry over dwindling subscriber numbers because many people would quit due to frustration. What is our goal? To keep people going, to convince them that it is worth renewing their subscription month after month, to assure them that if they invest enough time they can get the epics they want.
However, such business logic does not make time sinks more fun. And fun is the reason why people are playing games. You brought the a), b) and c) examples. I say no matter how worthy the reward of "C" is, it does not justify forcing the players to do something that is utterly boring and repetitive. If a game start to evolve in that direction, it won't be very much different from real life, and most people do not want real life mechanisms in a game that is played for fun. Gaming companies should redefine the meaning of "work" - "effort" would be a more appropriate term, because "effort" could mean something interesting, something challenging. This is why I suggested epic quest lines for epic items that do not involve mindless reputation grinding and such. I say putting hundreds of hours into grinding does not justify your getting an epic item, and does not represent any kind of achievement. A bot program can do the same.
Getting epic items should be a rewarding experience in itself. They could do it - but it requires creativity. They could do it as an option - they could keep the grinding for those who prefer getting them that way. I say, epic quest series that present an epic challenge and epic fun could be an alternative.
Right now, the game is epic boredom while you are grinding for your epic, a short period of enjoyment when you grab it, and enjoy your improved skills, and the the epic boredom starts again for the next item. What fun it is!
It is people or kids like this this that ruin the game. Most people play the game to have fun. People think that being hardcore in a video game puts you up on the food chain. Wake up call. IT DOESNT. It just proves that you have nothing constructive to do with your time. AKA job or collage. Rewarding a hardcore gamer is only saying that having no life is good. But in the real life it doesnt mean nothing. I like the new changes. Even though I was exalted in all 3 before the patch. I couldnt invest enough time to get the rank gear. I laugh when a tier2 or tier3 warr charges and doest hamstring. Remember that WOW is pve first then PVP thrown in with no end game objectives. Wow has to counter that WAR is coming up later this year. As most of us know WAR is pvp first with endgame pvp obectives. Where the hardcore raider will not make it there. I have no problem dealing with tier2 or 3 players. Most of them do not know how to pvp but relie on the gear to make up for lack of skill.
It's casuals like you that know i speak the truth and get so upset at what i say. If i'm not so high on the food chain than what does it matter to you? Construction? I work 40-50+ hours a week and still find time to both raid, and own you in pvp as stated in my previous posts. You will come back saying that i am 10 years old and don't know what i am talking about and that i am some elitest jerk, which is fine because you mean nothing to me and most likely never will. "Hardcore' is not just raiding, it's a way of life. I'd wipe my floor with you in pvp and pve if it was not such a disgrace to my floor. I play the game to have fun aswell, but being a 'hardcore' player i get the added bonus of stomping on kids or people like you that think i am trying to prove something.
Lets recap: I play for #1 Fun, #2 Sense of accomplishment, #3 teamwork and close friends, #4 hanging out in hillsbrad feilds killing low lvl horde with 5000+pyroblast crits. You have fun your way, i will have fun mine, i dont' have to agree with you and can make my opinions about the game AND SO CAN YOU we both are neither are right or wrong because there is allways two sides you can look at it from.
You can beleave me or not, it makes little difference. but some of us have a life and job that is good enough to be able to not be high strung stressed out about a game
For just saying that you like to wipe low lvl horde tells me you do suck at pvp and like you said 10 year old elitest prick. For you to assume that you can wipe the floor with me also tells me you still suck at pvp and have to relie on gear then skill and trash talk. I doubt it very much that you do have a job. Bring it fanboi. Doubt very much you will come back after you taking your dirt nap. Great thing about internet is that even 10 year old elitest pricks can be tough. You have no idea of my pvp skill but you did tell me yours. Camping tauren mill ganking lowbies is your top end of your hardcore skill.
Get a job, move out of your parents basement and pay your own bills. Paper routes do not count. Like I said Hardcore in a game does not make you Hardcore in life.
Get over your childish self and move on.
For the others. I do like what blizzard is taking the pvp. Dont know for a fact but ZG runs can get some decent epics to. Great thing about ZG is do it at your own pace and rep doesnt decay. But the nature of mmo is the grind pvp or pve. It is all based on time longer you play more they make.
The formula works just fine for you. YOu have just said that the Task A is SOOO unbearable that there is no amount of Time B or Reward C that justifies you doing it.
That is cool, find a different game or enjoy a different part of that one, but don't try to say that the equation is broken or that the game is broken. I think the spike in numbers speaks for itself.
As to Sports teams being about better skill = more wins... I wonder just how closely you follow sports. I say that because EVERY week I know of teams with less talent but more determination (read TIME SPENT) that win over their opponents. Less talent/better coaching wins out over better talent all the time too. And... I don't care HOW many skills you have, if you are not spending hours upon hours of conditioning EVERY WEEK, then all your skills amount to squat.
You might find it hard to believe... but I can find enjoyment in the WoW BGs for the same reason I find enjoyment in Chess. (well mostly just AB, but the others to a lesser extent). It is not the running around and killing people and claiming points that is fun, because that is the same EVERY game (much like the moving of pieces on a chess board). The fun comes in from the fact that I play vs different people every time. They may send 5 people to the smith this game and 10 the next... how do I adapt our guild's strategy to counter that?
Perhaps you are a solo player in MMOs, or maybe just a grunt in the guild... I dunno, but PvP has a strategy level to it that goes beyond the actual gameplay.
Blizzard is attempting to even the playfield a bit (and make it so people are not just PWNED by the BC mobs) and I think it is a step in the right direction. If you can't get into PvE raids OR PvP fights... then I just wonder why in the world you would give Blizz your money every month.
For just saying that you like to wipe low lvl horde tells me you do suck at pvp and like you said 10 year old elitest prick. For you to assume that you can wipe the floor with me also tells me you still suck at pvp and have to relie on gear then skill and trash talk. I doubt it very much that you do have a job. Bring it fanboi. Doubt very much you will come back after you taking your dirt nap. Great thing about internet is that even 10 year old elitest pricks can be tough. You have no idea of my pvp skill but you did tell me yours. Camping tauren mill ganking lowbies is your top end of your hardcore skill. Get a job, move out of your parents basement and pay your own bills. Paper routes do not count. Like I said Hardcore in a game does not make you Hardcore in life. Get over your childish self and move on. For the others. I do like what blizzard is taking the pvp. Dont know for a fact but ZG runs can get some decent epics to. Great thing about ZG is do it at your own pace and rep doesnt decay. But the nature of mmo is the grind pvp or pve. It is all based on time longer you play more they make.
I don't have to prove anything to you and nothing i can say will make you beleave that i do in fact work, which is ok, i allready established that does not matter. However... moving on, i have nothing more to add to this I'm going to let you have the illusion of winning this discussion Come see me on Eredar if you want to really prove something.
[edit] See you in Mount Hyjal.... sometime 5 years from now
First of all i WAS a harcore player... spent alot of time in WoW everyday... made several lvl 60s
Only did random raids now and then call me a casual harcore player then. I did some PvP but lacked the interest to get the big grind and have all the respect to all who did make it all the way to the end THE OLD STYLE! Today any 9 yr old newbie can get same stuff within a week if he wanted to.
But worst of all (for me) the free epix killed crafting. Who wants to buy crafted gear when you can get it for free. With all my chars i got alotta 300 skill crafting in allmost all crafting classes. Stocked up MATs for a year and its all useless now. All the time and efford wasted over a night. Same story was told when SOE killed crafting in SWG and see how that ended up. (And everything else in the game.. i know)
I feel high end rewards/drops/gear in MMO are MEANT to be hard to get! Thats what so awesome about it. In SWG it took up to a year to become a jedi... it was "the carrot" most players where all hunting for and kept loggin on to get.
The people that whined, and in the end, made the developers change the game to please. Was the casuals!
I truly feel that if people dont wanna work for it... they dont deserve it!
Theres room for all of us, but changing a game for the casual "1 hour a day"-gamer, ruins it for everyone else.
Wumi - EU-Kazzak (Havnt been on since the free epix... but whats 1 guy with 5mill. players around *sigh*)
Comments
I guess it depends what side of the isle you’re on. But having played WoW in Beta and since launch and BC Beta. I am not a real hardcore player but some one that plays enough to get EPIC rewards. I have never liked the fact that I had to spend hours and hours depending on other people to show up and stay for a RIADs. So I was always understood what casual player’s complaints were. This is a game for entertainment, not a sport. When you have to work at something like a job it looses its appeal. I could type 500 pages on what is wrong with this game and most of it is the people that play it. Not that people don't have the skill to play WoW, because it takes very little to do so, and they are little cry babies.
With the changes to the battlegrounds and rewards, and when BC come out. I feel that all the time and effort that I put into the game is going to be erased, not really erased but just go unnoticed. I will give it a try when it comes out, but my new x360 "Assassin's Creed" and other MMORPG like Warhammer Online : Age of Reckoning and Age of Conan look more appealing to me atm. Every single MMO has a end to it, and it is the same, if the fun factor ever is gone then the game is done, and doing the same stuff over and over and over, is not fun to me.
UO-EQ1-SWG-DAOC-WOW-EQ2-WAR-GW2-RIFT
i quit wow along time ago, detested the pvp grind and its ignorant decay model, and with seething hatred cursed the sony employees that coninued the raid model development in wow.
that said, it does give me some bit of satisfaction to see the developers (HAVE) to cave in to the largest part of the demographic, the casual crowd. a business model modified so that wow will survive (they hope) when the other mmo's come out in 2007.
and what is with the mindset that to me is laughable at best, that if you spend the time (grind hours and hours) or get in the uber natzi (yes,yes complain to your congressman about the natzi remark) raid guild to farm for months, YOU, deserve the "stuff". let me tell you something that may come as a shock to some of you "hardcore leeters" playing that long or that many months for one item tells the majority of the folks playing one thing, and blizzard itself said it best on southpark................
i will clarify my next statement, to those that think they are casual, get lucky and get into a guild with some common sense and run raids regularly and you get lucky and get a bunch of whatever item, you are the exception, and you label yourself casual, your not, your lucky, and there isnt anything wrong with that, if you fail to show up, fail to do this you lose standing points and your spot in the item list. which is the case most of the time, again i do say there are exceptions. arguments are made on the boards "i only play an hour a day or 2 hours a week and have all the nax gear so its possible for casual players to do it" again, your simply lucky or milking your guild members.
back to the respect thing. to the folks that have a full time job, that actually spend time with family instead of closed off in the computer room for hours or days, you know who you are, balancing all of this and actually sticking with wow, you are finally being paid attention to by the developers and well deserved.
to the hardcore leeters that think this or anything else regarding a positive decision for casual players takes away from "their" accomplishments, regardless of your age, i say to you please, there is something other than mindless grinding, friends, family, and i am sure your work, if you have a job is at stellar levels. folks make commercials or embarrassing cartoons of this kind of behaviour for a reason, and its not to flatter you hardcore leeters, its to make fun of you, and let me tell you i laugh alot when i see one.
the simple fix for the grinders and raiders, have the developers make one of, never to be gotten again items, no matter how many times or with how many different people, should satisfy the uber guilds, take that raid party in there for a few months, 40 folks battling out it to finally get to the end (sounds like an epic struggle....get your blood pumping does it?!) , for one single piece of unique gear that will never ever drop again, one time, thats it, over! now thats a prize for you grind or raid fanatics to trash talk about to those casual folks................
can you smell that?!!...............there is nothing quite like it.....................the smell of troll in the morning............i love that smell.
It is people or kids like this this that ruin the game. Most people play the game to have fun. People think that being hardcore in a video game puts you up on the food chain. Wake up call. IT DOESNT. It just proves that you have nothing constructive to do with your time. AKA job or collage. Rewarding a hardcore gamer is only saying that having no life is good. But in the real life it doesnt mean nothing. I like the new changes. Even though I was exalted in all 3 before the patch. I couldnt invest enough time to get the rank gear. I laugh when a tier2 or tier3 warr charges and doest hamstring. Remember that WOW is pve first then PVP thrown in with no end game objectives. Wow has to counter that WAR is coming up later this year. As most of us know WAR is pvp first with endgame pvp obectives. Where the hardcore raider will not make it there. I have no problem dealing with tier2 or 3 players. Most of them do not know how to pvp but relie on the gear to make up for lack of skill.It's casuals like you that know i speak the truth and get so upset at what i say. If i'm not so high on the food chain than what does it matter to you? Construction? I work 40-50+ hours a week and still find time to both raid, and own you in pvp as stated in my previous posts. You will come back saying that i am 10 years old and don't know what i am talking about and that i am some elitest jerk, which is fine because you mean nothing to me and most likely never will. "Hardcore' is not just raiding, it's a way of life. I'd wipe my floor with you in pvp and pve if it was not such a disgrace to my floor. I play the game to have fun aswell, but being a 'hardcore' player i get the added bonus of stomping on kids or people like you that think i am trying to prove something.
Lets recap: I play for #1 Fun, #2 Sense of accomplishment, #3 teamwork and close friends, #4 hanging out in hillsbrad feilds killing low lvl horde with 5000+pyroblast crits. You have fun your way, i will have fun mine, i dont' have to agree with you and can make my opinions about the game AND SO CAN YOU we both are neither are right or wrong because there is allways two sides you can look at it from.
You can beleave me or not, it makes little difference. but some of us have a life and job that is good enough to be able to not be high strung stressed out about a game
Finally! An article by someone I can relate to! It even gave me some understanding of people I can't relate to (hard core gamers).
A hard core gamer is getting the same accomplishment out of his MMORPG experience that I get out of my job, family, and sports. No wonder they get so mad when they see someone spend a hundred bucks and buy a 1000g.
I play for fun and I am lucky to have 8 hours in a week to play. But its casual people who make something like WOW possible. I pay for three accounts every month (niece and brother-n-law), thats the money that pays for all this development.
Maybe I'll try the BG's out...after I get to 70. I won't have time to play before the expansion comes out because I have work, parties, and sports between now and then.
It all started with a lantern, a sword, and a trap door...
Sounds great to me
I thought it was bad seeing every Tauren running around in Might ...
I think this move was a great step in the right direction. Let's face it...you can't serve two masters... either a game is designed for casual players, with easy entry, simple controls and a more basic feel...or it contains extreme depth, long grinds (for some) and rewards long playing times over everything else.
WoW has always been for the causal player...the hardcore should really consider another game more to their favor. Many hardcores already have in fact, moving to games such as EvE and others. Let there be one game out there for casual players....
I always felt they should make a game where players could not play more than 4 hours in a 24 hour period, and no more than 20 hours in a week.... hardcore need not apply....
Yes, it will work. In the early days of MMORPG's..it was the harcore players, all 100, 000 or so per game of them who supported it. But with the coming of WoW, where I'd venture to say at least 1.5 million or more of their 2 million US membership (forget China) are casual players... so why not make the game more to their liking.
Its not about whether some hardcore player can wipe the field with everyone (like that one clown on this forum keeps posting) its about whether or not people will keep paying subscription fees. The more who do..the better it is for the developer..and the game itself. (BTW..claiming to be the best at WoW pvp.. lol... you suck... you'd be destroyed by people in other games)
Hardcore players are fickle...they move on pretty quickly to the next new thing... casuals are more likely to stay with a game to experience the content they've not completed/mastered..or hang with friends....
BTW... I consider myself somewhat hardcore, I play on average about 30 hours a week (my wife swears its much more) and I tired of Wow and decided to move on .... but I don't begrudge the causual players a chance to play a competitive game, have fun..and maintain some semblence of a normal life.
MMO's can be fun for the player who only has 12 hours a week too you know....
"True friends stab you in the front." | Oscar Wilde
"I need to finish" - Christian Wolff: The Accountant
Just trying to live long enough to play a new, released MMORPG, playing New Worlds atm
Fools find no pleasure in understanding but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV
Don't just play games, inhabit virtual worlds™
"This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon
There is no part of WoW that does not require farming... so yea that should be nothing new to you. The issue here is what you have to DO while putting in your time. For those whose brain's go numb and eyes bleed when they see the same instance for the 20th time... but who don't mind running PvP instances (as they are at least a TOUCH different game to game), well this allows a more palletable grind.
I don't know if there is a way to remove WORK from REWARD, even in a game... and honestly I don't know if I would want to play such a game anyway. The important part is making the "work" side enjoyable enough to do and making the "reward" side worth the investment.
WORK | GRIND =/= Fun
Many people justify the need for hard work to get an epic item by saying "EPIC means EPIC effort".
I say that's bullshit. EPIC effort should mean EPIC FUN! EPIC should be EPIC difficulty, but difficulty =/= grinding. Grinding is a simple time sink that the companies put into their games to keep you subscribed. Designing something that is based on grinding for honor/reputation/items does not require creativity.
Ok, they designed an armor upgrade quest. It could have been fun if the results were worthy of the effort, but the upgraded stats are just slightly better than those of the old items.
I guess Blizzard is aware of the issue because - as far as I know (I may be wrong, I only say what a guildmate and friend told me about his experience in TBC beta) - some of the Burning Crusade quest items/drops are actually better than T2 items so player like me who don't like the grinding/pvp'ing aspect of the game (I'm a questing freak so bear with me) will have a chance to catch up with the raiding guys.
Btw, I agree this was a positive patch. The fact that it does not offer anything to non-PVP'ers does not detract from its positive effects.
Too bad, MMORPG's have not evolved to the point yet where dynamic content dominates the max level end-game, offering fun for all playstyles. Hell, people may argue that it is something that is nearly impossible to achieve, but the same could have been said about the MMO's of today just one decade ago.
It's posts like this that make me want to punch babies.
This kind of move by Blizzard does nothing but degrade the people who put in actual effort to attain the necessary faction to have earned epic rewards.
This casual vs. raider is a tired argument and ultimately, the direction of Blizzard currently will drive away hardcores because the poor, whiney casuals who think they're ENTITLED to the same rewards as those players who put in more effort, more hours, and undoubtedly more skill (read: have more experience) demand Blizzard cater to them exclusively.
You want a casual game, go play phucking Sim City and GTFO of my MMO. I'm trying to actually achieve something...unlike you.
So people who have families, jobs, and actual real lives don't deserve something for the time and effort they put in? I mean honestly WoW is heavily lopsided to people who have nothing but free time on their hands which is bad in the long term. Granted they should of done something for those that have been in it since the beginning such as offer some free points, or a free random item or enchantement but they didnt' and you can't blame that on the players that actually do something other than sit online all day. there's still going to be plenty of gear out there that the casual player can't get a hold of because they dont have the time or maybe even the want to go into the same 40 man dungeon 10 or 15 times to get it so whats the big boo hoo about honestly?
Please Refer to Doom Cat with all conspiracies & evil corporation complaints. He'll give you the simple explination of..WE"RE ALL DOOMED!
Why ?
I manage to play high end raid farming Mc,BWL,AQ40,Naax and now they give reward to anybody who just farm BG ...
I don't like PVP and i feel spoiled when i see my silithus shaman faction reward and the PVP R14 shaman weapons ...
So what is the problem, do it too ...
I don't like pvp as i say, and i will not do pvp just for a reward ...
And ...what Can think all the ppl who are really Rank 14 and proud of it and see any reroll able to have the same gears than them ?
I have a fell of "Deja vu" when i see those reward you can buy with honor and mark...
Where i saw that already ...hummm oh yes LDON for EQ1 one of the patch what killed EQ1
This is not a flam post, just ... somebody with a lot of deception than they give out epik high end gear just while farming BG few days.
That's why i decided to stop WOW now, before BC will come, and focus on Vanguard beta.
That game is great
(And sorry for my bad english it is not my native english)
K buddy if your gonna talk like you are than use the real numbers, 7million players, not: oh 1 million of these people, or oh lets not include mexico. the game is the same for all 7million. recompute.
Hahaha, had some good laughs reading this thread...
I like the new patch thingie, but that aside, it was realy calling for this kind of vocal response... you can't realy hold it against HCers when they are mad, it's like you go to school and coledge and you bust your ass at work to afford a house and a car and when you finaly get it, there comes a new law where anyone who finishes comunity coledge gets (maybe not a mercedes like you) a lexus and an apartment for free...
But still, those HCers can be realy funny
Well, since I find the PvP boring both pre and post patch, I'm just going to keep hoping that WoW's new expansion caters to what made this game fun originally: The PvE experience. I'm seriously hoping the new expansion has a doubling of PvE content and regions, not just some 1-20 level questing options for the two new races and some 60-70 content for the high levels. If it doesn't, I am not continuing with this game; there are too many other new options looming on the horizon out there right now (Vanguard, Age of Conan, etc.)
But man, these hardcore players who get all worked up over their in-game accomplishments: I'll feel your pain while enjoying a pleasant evening with the opposite sex; if only I were willing to forego women, life, and self respect, I'd probably have some tier two epic gear, too. Darn that love of real life I have! More power to you guys who grind it in to oblivion....
Current MMOs: Rift, GW2, Defiance
Blog: http://realmsofchirak.blogspot.com (old school tabletop gaming and more)
It's posts like this that make me want to punch babies.
This kind of move by Blizzard does nothing but degrade the people who put in actual effort to attain the necessary faction to have earned epic rewards.
This casual vs. raider is a tired argument and ultimately, the direction of Blizzard currently will drive away hardcores because the poor, whiney casuals who think they're ENTITLED to the same rewards as those players who put in more effort, more hours, and undoubtedly more skill (read: have more experience) demand Blizzard cater to them exclusively.
You want a casual game, go play phucking Sim City and GTFO of my MMO. I'm trying to actually achieve something...unlike you.
I'm curious. What exactly are you trying to achieve? Cure cancer? Save mankind from aliens? Take over the world? Or gear a meaningless toon up in WoW? Get a grip, bud. I say good-riddance to the raiders, because they make up a very small population of any MMO.I gotta admit you thinking you are achieving something by spending 40 hours a week in a game is pretty hillarious. You can do whatever you want, but don't be delusional by thinking anyone gives a rat's behind that you invest hundreds of hours into a game every month.
Sorry for the ignorance, but I keep hearing this term "premade". What is a "premade". I have an idea but I won't comment on it for fear of being entirely off center with it. Perhaps somebody can school me on this term?
Trellot
It's posts like this that make me want to punch babies.
This kind of move by Blizzard does nothing but degrade the people who put in actual effort to attain the necessary faction to have earned epic rewards.
This casual vs. raider is a tired argument and ultimately, the direction of Blizzard currently will drive away hardcores because the poor, whiney casuals who think they're ENTITLED to the same rewards as those players who put in more effort, more hours, and undoubtedly more skill (read: have more experience) demand Blizzard cater to them exclusively.
You want a casual game, go play phucking Sim City and GTFO of my MMO. I'm trying to actually achieve something...unlike you.
I'm curious. What exactly are you trying to achieve? Cure cancer? Save mankind from aliens? Take over the world? Or gear a meaningless toon up in WoW? Get a grip, bud. I say good-riddance to the raiders, because they make up a very small population of any MMO.I gotta admit you thinking you are achieving something by spending 40 hours a week in a game is pretty hillarious. You can do whatever you want, but don't be delusional by thinking anyone gives a rat's behind that you invest hundreds of hours into a game every month.
In basketball, soccer, baseball.... you win because you are BETTER than the other team, and not because you invested more time. In chess, you win because your brain works better than your opponent's. If two teams are equally skilled, then of course the one that put more time into practicing will have a better chance to win. Those people and teams deserve their rewards because, yeah, they were actually better than the rest.
But also, many people do sports because they enjoy the activity itself and their goal is not necessarily the World Championship. I know many people who play football, basketball, table-tennis, volley-ball and so on just for the fun of it. In chess the game seems to be repetitive, because all they seem to do is pushing chess-pieces - in reality it is the mental challenge they crave for, the challenge of outwitting the opponent, to figure out from the moves he made what he is up to. So the activity is rewarding in itself. Should not it be the same with MMO's?
With all MMO games, the developers are forced to make a decision early: which group of players they want to cater to? Those who say: skillz > time invested? Then they'll lose a bunch of players who say 'Bah, I do not have the reflexes of a hyperactive 10-year old kid, gimme something to grind'. Blizzard opted for the time sink based gameplay (which is good for them business-wise). They thought if we gave epics only to those who are the most skilled then after a while we would cry over dwindling subscriber numbers because many people would quit due to frustration. What is our goal? To keep people going, to convince them that it is worth renewing their subscription month after month, to assure them that if they invest enough time they can get the epics they want.
However, such business logic does not make time sinks more fun. And fun is the reason why people are playing games. You brought the a), b) and c) examples. I say no matter how worthy the reward of "C" is, it does not justify forcing the players to do something that is utterly boring and repetitive. If a game start to evolve in that direction, it won't be very much different from real life, and most people do not want real life mechanisms in a game that is played for fun. Gaming companies should redefine the meaning of "work" - "effort" would be a more appropriate term, because "effort" could mean something interesting, something challenging. This is why I suggested epic quest lines for epic items that do not involve mindless reputation grinding and such. I say putting hundreds of hours into grinding does not justify your getting an epic item, and does not represent any kind of achievement. A bot program can do the same.
Getting epic items should be a rewarding experience in itself. They could do it - but it requires creativity. They could do it as an option - they could keep the grinding for those who prefer getting them that way. I say, epic quest series that present an epic challenge and epic fun could be an alternative.
Right now, the game is epic boredom while you are grinding for your epic, a short period of enjoyment when you grab it, and enjoy your improved skills, and the the epic boredom starts again for the next item. What fun it is!
Let me join those who are asking the question: who will reward those who don't play PVP and have relatively little time to play....?
(you can guess my gamer stereotpye, a true casual
Denial makes one look a lot dumber than he/she actually is.
It's casuals like you that know i speak the truth and get so upset at what i say. If i'm not so high on the food chain than what does it matter to you? Construction? I work 40-50+ hours a week and still find time to both raid, and own you in pvp as stated in my previous posts. You will come back saying that i am 10 years old and don't know what i am talking about and that i am some elitest jerk, which is fine because you mean nothing to me and most likely never will. "Hardcore' is not just raiding, it's a way of life. I'd wipe my floor with you in pvp and pve if it was not such a disgrace to my floor. I play the game to have fun aswell, but being a 'hardcore' player i get the added bonus of stomping on kids or people like you that think i am trying to prove something.
Lets recap: I play for #1 Fun, #2 Sense of accomplishment, #3 teamwork and close friends, #4 hanging out in hillsbrad feilds killing low lvl horde with 5000+pyroblast crits. You have fun your way, i will have fun mine, i dont' have to agree with you and can make my opinions about the game AND SO CAN YOU we both are neither are right or wrong because there is allways two sides you can look at it from.
You can beleave me or not, it makes little difference. but some of us have a life and job that is good enough to be able to not be high strung stressed out about a game
For just saying that you like to wipe low lvl horde tells me you do suck at pvp and like you said 10 year old elitest prick. For you to assume that you can wipe the floor with me also tells me you still suck at pvp and have to relie on gear then skill and trash talk. I doubt it very much that you do have a job. Bring it fanboi. Doubt very much you will come back after you taking your dirt nap. Great thing about internet is that even 10 year old elitest pricks can be tough. You have no idea of my pvp skill but you did tell me yours. Camping tauren mill ganking lowbies is your top end of your hardcore skill.
Get a job, move out of your parents basement and pay your own bills. Paper routes do not count. Like I said Hardcore in a game does not make you Hardcore in life.
Get over your childish self and move on.
For the others. I do like what blizzard is taking the pvp. Dont know for a fact but ZG runs can get some decent epics to. Great thing about ZG is do it at your own pace and rep doesnt decay. But the nature of mmo is the grind pvp or pve. It is all based on time longer you play more they make.
@ Milla...
The formula works just fine for you. YOu have just said that the Task A is SOOO unbearable that there is no amount of Time B or Reward C that justifies you doing it.
That is cool, find a different game or enjoy a different part of that one, but don't try to say that the equation is broken or that the game is broken. I think the spike in numbers speaks for itself.
As to Sports teams being about better skill = more wins... I wonder just how closely you follow sports. I say that because EVERY week I know of teams with less talent but more determination (read TIME SPENT) that win over their opponents. Less talent/better coaching wins out over better talent all the time too. And... I don't care HOW many skills you have, if you are not spending hours upon hours of conditioning EVERY WEEK, then all your skills amount to squat.
You might find it hard to believe... but I can find enjoyment in the WoW BGs for the same reason I find enjoyment in Chess. (well mostly just AB, but the others to a lesser extent). It is not the running around and killing people and claiming points that is fun, because that is the same EVERY game (much like the moving of pieces on a chess board). The fun comes in from the fact that I play vs different people every time. They may send 5 people to the smith this game and 10 the next... how do I adapt our guild's strategy to counter that?
Perhaps you are a solo player in MMOs, or maybe just a grunt in the guild... I dunno, but PvP has a strategy level to it that goes beyond the actual gameplay.
Blizzard is attempting to even the playfield a bit (and make it so people are not just PWNED by the BC mobs) and I think it is a step in the right direction. If you can't get into PvE raids OR PvP fights... then I just wonder why in the world you would give Blizz your money every month.
I don't have to prove anything to you and nothing i can say will make you beleave that i do in fact work, which is ok, i allready established that does not matter. However... moving on, i have nothing more to add to this
I'm going to let you have the illusion of winning this discussion 
Come see me on Eredar if you want to really prove something.
[edit] See you in Mount Hyjal.... sometime 5 years from now
First of all i WAS a harcore player... spent alot of time in WoW everyday... made several lvl 60s
Only did random raids now and then call me a casual harcore player then. I did some PvP but lacked the interest to get the big grind and have all the respect to all who did make it all the way to the end THE OLD STYLE! Today any 9 yr old newbie can get same stuff within a week if he wanted to.
But worst of all (for me) the free epix killed crafting. Who wants to buy crafted gear when you can get it for free. With all my chars i got alotta 300 skill crafting in allmost all crafting classes. Stocked up MATs for a year and its all useless now. All the time and efford wasted over a night. Same story was told when SOE killed crafting in SWG and see how that ended up. (And everything else in the game.. i know)
I feel high end rewards/drops/gear in MMO are MEANT to be hard to get! Thats what so awesome about it. In SWG it took up to a year to become a jedi... it was "the carrot" most players where all hunting for and kept loggin on to get.
The people that whined, and in the end, made the developers change the game to please. Was the casuals!
I truly feel that if people dont wanna work for it... they dont deserve it!
Theres room for all of us, but changing a game for the casual "1 hour a day"-gamer, ruins it for everyone else.
Wumi - EU-Kazzak (Havnt been on since the free epix... but whats 1 guy with 5mill. players around *sigh*)
Wumi - SWG - Bloodfin - Cancelled
Wumi - WoW - Eu-Kazzak - Cancelled
Bulldozer - Aion - Eu-Kahrun - Cancelled
Wumi - Rift - EU-Riptalon - Cancelled