Howdy, Stranger!
It looks like you're new here. If you want to get involved, click one of these buttons!
Quick Links
Instance : The good, the Bad
Munki
Member CommonPosts: 2,128
Okay, here it is, Ive spread this argument across many many posts, but everytime I end up arguing with sombody who resorts to silly one liners and faulty logic.
I dont understand the benifits of ignoring instancing. Infact I have a hard time seeing any good reason why having no instanceing is good. People always go "It kills immersion" and its "Anti-Social in a social game." But give no shroud of evidence, example or support for those statements and I frankly dont understand where they are comming from.
The way I look at it, it allows for much more control of encounters, prevents zergs and allows content to be created for specific numbers of people and specific levels of people. Its much less chaotic and leads to less greiving and drama. So please, could sombody give me a count argument with examples, and reasons longer than 1 sentence, I have been for a long time, very curious why people lead this crusade agasined instanced content.
I dont understand the benifits of ignoring instancing. Infact I have a hard time seeing any good reason why having no instanceing is good. People always go "It kills immersion" and its "Anti-Social in a social game." But give no shroud of evidence, example or support for those statements and I frankly dont understand where they are comming from.
The way I look at it, it allows for much more control of encounters, prevents zergs and allows content to be created for specific numbers of people and specific levels of people. Its much less chaotic and leads to less greiving and drama. So please, could sombody give me a count argument with examples, and reasons longer than 1 sentence, I have been for a long time, very curious why people lead this crusade agasined instanced content.
after 6 or so years, I had to change it a little...
Comments
What would be the point of playing a pvp game with instances when you dont even have to defend anything, would take away more of something that actaully has meaning to fight over *Cough* WOW *Cough*.
Theres not really a whole hell of alot that goes bad when its in a pve game but once it comes into pvp alot of the reason to pvp (Ownership of land and dungeons and even supremecy over parts of a map) pretty much gets taken away.
Which Final Fantasy Character Are You?
if I were to kill a titan tomorrow and no CCP employees showed up to say grats I would petition it.
Waiting for: the next MMO that lets me make this macro
if hp < 30 then CastSpell("heal") SpellTargetUnit("player") else CastSpell("smite") end
For PVP centric games or games with dedicated PVP server's instancing sucks. Back in the days when clans would have all out wars to control 'key' locations and dungeons is where it's at. Fighting for something of REAL value, not some 'resetable' goal. This is HUGE.
And why do you need evidence? I think it's quite clear than instancing eliminate the 'massively multiplayer' part of the experience. Personally I don't play (and pay for) MMORPG's to be able to play with a couple of people. I enjoy the 'massively multiplayer' part of it. If non instancing creates drama, then so be it - infact, more drama on PVP servers = more politics, more fighting and more fun! If i wanted instanced games where i play with a few people i'd play NWN2/BG multiplayer.
But this is coming from a PVP'ers perspective, I don't care much for PVE raiding or uber loot.
NGE Refugee.
"Freedom is just another name for nothing left to lose" - Janis Joplin
.jpg)
I think even then instances shouldnt be allowed IN A PVP ENVIRONMENT. Yet again darkfall is my dream game so that COULD be MY fault in YOUR eyes
Instancing done right can really add to the game's storyline. Guild Wars really makes it feel like you are the hero of the land with all the scripted instanced content and cut scenes. Conversely, GW doesn't feel very "massively" multiplayer at all most of the time, more like a LAN game. Personally, doesn't bother me too much I enjoy GW as a casual diversion.
I'm calling bullshit on this right now. That's not a True PvP'ers stance, that's a GANKERS stance. A Frag-Fest is just as meaningless as instanced PvP, infact it's more-so. True PvP'ers strive to have a clean match where neither side has huge clear-cut advantages going into it. Guildwars is the perfect example of this as it has Ladders which for the most part, REALLY DO MEAN SOMETHING to the thousands of players who watch the rankings and not just the people in one or two guilds. "King of the hill" monkey business over some dinky raidable little fort might mean something the to individual n00bs who are involved in that particular fight, but it's always going to be a fleeting victory that a buncha Australian Ninjas can put an end to just hours after it happens. More importantly, the "Tournament" style PvP formats usually award the winners tangible benefits, sometimes even cold hard cash.
And none of that is possible without using Instanced Combat scenarios.
I'm calling bullshit on this right now. That's not a True PvP'ers stance, that's a GANKERS stance. A Frag-Fest is just as meaningless as instanced PvP, infact it's more-so. True PvP'ers strive to have a clean match where neither side has huge clear-cut advantages going into it. Guildwars is the perfect example of this as it has Ladders which for the most part, REALLY DO MEAN SOMETHING to the thousands of players who watch the rankings and not just the people in one or two guilds. "King of the hill" monkey business over some dinky raidable little fort might mean something the to individual n00bs who are involved in that particular fight, but it's always going to be a fleeting victory that a buncha Australian Ninjas can put an end to just hours after it happens. More importantly, the "Tournament" style PvP formats usually award the winners tangible benefits, sometimes even cold hard cash.
And none of that is possible without using Instanced Combat scenarios.
Oh really, and you would know this because? Sounds to me like your MMORPG experience is limited to WOW and GW, possibly SWG? Ever tried UO pre tram, how about Darktide?
Firstly, I used to play Quake (1) World competitively and won quite a few large tournaments from doing so and all the prizes that went with it.
And on that note, sorry, but if all you want from PVP is a small scale, instanced, clean, clear cut match with no penalties in death then maybe you should stick with FPS games. A lot of them have ladders as well - YIPEE!
Half of the fun of PVP in MMORPG's with FFA PVP is that PVP can happen anywhere, anytime... You have to be on your toes, watching your back, playing smart. You actually have to THINK and LEARN from your experiences. You have friends you can trust that you know you have you back, then you have those deceiptful players who you will KOS. Then there's the politics - alliances - wars! None of this static crap of: heres your team, heres your enemy - attack!
I enjoyed the RUSH from PVP in games like UO, AC1. Even boring tasks like shopping were exciting because you never knew what was going to happen next - all because these areas weren't instanced.
Meaningless? You mean taking over and holding a town that has the best NPC sell rates in the game. Has the best leveling spots in the game and best and most wide spread portal setup in the game is meaningless? It affects the whole damn server, and some guilds hold towns for MONTHS.
Sorry, but guildwars fights are so boring, predictable and repetitive – they are more comparable to a FPS than a RPG. Another good reason why GW isn't classifed as a MMORPG in the first place.
Guildwars PvP suits people who want to know they won due to skill, not uber gear or being 20 levels higher than the people they are fighting. I think there is room for all sorts of pvp without putting down people who like other types.
"Instancing kills emmersion and is anti-social in a social game."
First, no one socializes with everyone in an MMO. You only quest with a select few so lets throw that anti-social thing out right now. Kills immersion? How about this for killing emmersion. In AC2 there were vaults you could enter that, if completed, would unlock information about what happened to the world. These vaults were not instanced. I solo'd every one of them. The vaults were so full of other characters, everything was dead. You had to kill the boss before you could portal into the info area. I waited in line. Yeah, that's emmersive. Emmersive in something brown and stinky.
Full instancing is bad because it is anti-social. But instancing special dungeons enhances emmersion, letting the player feel he is on a special quest. There's planty of time to socialize in town.
Which Final Fantasy Character Are You?
Final Fantasy 7
Waiting hours for that one boss to spawn to complete a quest alongside with 30-40 people is just ridiculous and bad game design.
I don't have a problem with instancing, I have a high enough intelligence and good enough imagination to fill in the 10 seconds or so most games instances seem to last while transitioning! I would take more stock in people who say instancing breaks immersion if they turned all phones off, msn, never went to the toilet while playing and had absolutely no contact with the real world in any way shape or form. Instancing in my opinion is just another yardstick for people to bash this that and the other with.
I think it's also how you approach instancing in terms of gameplay, in DDO, going into a dungeon, I see it as going thru some entrance, into a tavern, going thru a door. Instancing works well in DDO as it is about you and the party you are with at that time completing the dungeon. In a pnp game, people sitting around their table in their house wouldn't expect some random stranger to kick the door in armed with dice and the game's manuals, start rolling the dice he has and proceeding to kill those originally playing, then get up and leave again! Now that would be silly!
You must not leave until you free Arlos and have gathered your party safely in this hallway.
Well if you approve it - it must be true - lol
If I wanted instancing I'd play Oblivion
I think what needs to be done (and should of been done) is true dev-player interraction. If devs would gather player ideas and actualy implement them (instead of coming up with those ideas on their own) then those games would be deep with content and become extremely popular. It would be great if games adjusted to players, and not the other way around.
I am the type of player where I like to do everything and anything from time to time.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Holodomor - pre-WW2 genocide.
You are assuming two thing, both of which are not necesarily true:
A.) That instancing is everywhere in a game, as opposed to being in specific areas only.
B.) That instancing limits the involved players to one team or even one person.
For example, lets take a look at the instancing done in Anarchy Online, and the Temple of Three Winds in particular:
TOTW is a popular static dungeon for players around levels 25-60, in any given day, you might have between 50 to 300 people inside of it. The place is not that big, without instancing, you'd be tripping over other players every step of the way, and getting the chance to loot Aztur the Immortal? forget it, even if with so many people he'll go down fast.
The instancing done in TOTW allows for 30-40 people before diverting incoming players to a different one, enough for about 6-10 teams of varying size.
No man is an island, entire of itself; every man is a piece of the continent, a part of the main. any man's death diminishes me, because I am involved in mankind, and therefore never send to know for whom the bell tolls; it tolls for thee.
Hemingway
I'm calling bullshit on this right now. That's not a True PvP'ers stance, that's a GANKERS stance. A Frag-Fest is just as meaningless as instanced PvP, infact it's more-so. True PvP'ers strive to have a clean match where neither side has huge clear-cut advantages going into it. Guildwars is the perfect example of this as it has Ladders which for the most part, REALLY DO MEAN SOMETHING to the thousands of players who watch the rankings and not just the people in one or two guilds. "King of the hill" monkey business over some dinky raidable little fort might mean something the to individual n00bs who are involved in that particular fight, but it's always going to be a fleeting victory that a buncha Australian Ninjas can put an end to just hours after it happens. More importantly, the "Tournament" style PvP formats usually award the winners tangible benefits, sometimes even cold hard cash.
And none of that is possible without using Instanced Combat scenarios.
Oh really, and you would know this because? Sounds to me like your MMORPG experience is limited to WOW and GW, possibly SWG? Ever tried UO pre tram, how about Darktide?
Ok I dont really care for quake 1 that much i dont think it has much to do with MMORPGS other then some sort of REP that a player can get. But I realize old school UO was pretty damn harsh. And GD was old school darktide not the best damn place ot be in for a pvper?
Instancing is a cataliser, it will accentuated a good or bad design.
If the game is good, it will benefit from well though instancing, as it open opportunities for players; players are PLAYING the game. If the game is bad, then instancing will be it's grave, as the game can't hide behind other aspects, the players see it for what it is.
- "If I understand you well, you are telling me until next time. " - Ren
I like instanced PvP.
Objectives based maps.
Concentration of PvP players all in the same place.
Limited numbers of players so that each player has a personal role to play. The match is dependant on their abilities and teamwork. Rather than being a tiny slice of DPS in a giant zerg.
The PvP zones are not dual purpose but dedicated PvP arenas. Designed specifically for that purpose, so that the enviroment is well thought out and suited for battle.
Like in chess, the players can learn the moves in a limited enviroment allowing for true skill to become apparent. You can find your best camper spots etc.
I also enjoyed the non instance PvP in games such as Planetside. But it was never personal. No intricate teamwork was ever required. Nothing more complimentry than all zerging the same target or arriving at the sametime together in a dropship.
Too many players is teamwork deficient. An instance is more rewarding and more personally involved.
Anyway pvp arenas, sure fine they're alittle more personal and you only have 4v4 maybe at most sometimes. But whats the point of it? To gain points or to go up ina ranking system? Whats the pleasure in that? Theres no sense of danger and im certain there would probably be no chance of loss in a controlled environment such as that.
That system isnt true PVP. You guys are pretty intelligent make up some kinda word for o.0 pvp. True PVP is when your running for your life (Old school darktide, UO).
One of my favorite chats i had aboutinstances, for example with a WoW player. "Whats the point of defending a dungeon in order to hunt in it, that would mean that I would have to stop fighting monsters and fight players and possibly die and respawn at my cemetary and run all the way back there"
Although yes it can be annoying, if done right PVP can also help you gain levels (shadowbane just implemented pvp EXP even though i know shadowbane is too far gone to fix lol. Darkfall also has this implemented). I dont understand why you would play a game and talk about how crazy the pvp is when all it is, is in certain controlled environement.
Now directly towards your post about that arena style. I know theres games like COH and what not that arent really ment to pin player vs player so they add in the arena just to allow players to test their skills. Being a pvper I hate the idea of it, but i understand not everyone likes it.
And although we hate zergs and what not it would still be awesome looking over your castle walls to see about 300 men charging your castle, then looking back to your 300 soldiers and telling them to press beyond thwa lls while your 70 archers fire over the walls (think of lord of the rings). Thats my dream of an uber pvp game *cough* Darkfall *cough*