Well as usual I do not posty very often but read the forums and comments almost everyday. It took sensible and very good comments from a Member named Thamaris (I do not know him at all) to get me to actually post and comment from my desk at work!
Gratz Thamaris on all your comments. I am a casual player and have almost never participated in Guirl Raids due to my play time. I have 3 kids, a house, a full time job and after supper, dishes, and homework that may ony leave me about 1 -2 hours or interuppted play time per week day. So for me to actually have to get ready to go on a 5-6 Raid is absolutely impossible. Besides every Guild Hunt (not Raid) I have attended NEVER ever starts at the assigned time but usually like 1-2 hours late as peeps change toons go back to town to get better equipment etc.... No matter how much planning you do in advance if your biggest Tank or Healer is late, then you have to wait!!! I can't imagine a Raid of 3 or 4 guilds with like 40 toons in each Guild.
Heck I only play 1 Toon (no Aults) because I do not have the time to play more.....
Yea, I would tend to aggree that the casual player tends to keep his/her account active much longer then the Hard-Core player. Hard-Core players in my experience (as a Guild Leader) tend to be much more demanding, get upset quicker and usually quit or change servers or even games when they have done everything there is to do in a game. Our casual Guild moved from DAoC to WOW and we were small and had fun even though 98% of us were all casual family type people: then the Hard-Core players that had joined in the begining wanted more Raids and would get upset because us "casual" players could not attend "their" hours of Play..so they moved on to other guilds more suited to them. Saying that: there is nothing wrong with a Hard Core Guild or a Casual Guild but most definetely the 2 do not mix at all and I can assure you that I have the experience to back it up.
I play MMos' Fantasy based games to get that "escape" feeling from everyday life....that last thing I need is "Where the hell have you been" and "If you do not come you no longer in this Guild" thing when I log in. Well sorry Real Life happens!!!! I do not have my Mom uypstairs cooking supper and washing my close for me while I play 40 hours + of my Fav online Game. But I f I only log into my toon 2-3 times a week for like 1-2 hours per play session and I get to say Hello to my fellow "family" guild friends..then it is worth every single penny of my monthly subscription.....Heck on 2 occasions I have purchased a second account so my daughter or my wife can "casually" game with me and have some "fantasy" play time together...not a second acount to robot-heal my toon etc....
I do not play Mmorpgs for the money, the loot, the levels, the prestige...I play to have fun and if having fun with other players through a "casual" Guild is possible...then I am in!!!
BTW Thamoris, if I ever play Horizons or if you ever play EQ2, we need to connect...pees with your views and maturity in MMRoPGs are rare indeed.
Rad
Its worse to actually think about doing something then actually doing it!!!
Being somewhat new to the forums, I'd like to make a simple observation. The problem isn't the "elites" doing their own thing or even the "casuals" doing theirs. It seems to be the inability of both sides to respect eachother's play styles. Having been an officer in a wow guild for over a year and watching the guild go from 20-something mature 5-man dungeon runners to a 60-something "casual" raiding guild I have to say that the most of the contentous points that I had to mediate on a regular basis dealt with one member not respecting another member's play style or situation. I recall having to constantly look out for a first time mother who would frequently go away without notice in the middle of a raid to tend to her child. Did we whipe sometimes? You bet your socks, but all it took to resolve a potential personality conflict was to remind the members that we all have lives outside the game and we need to respect the fact that not everyone will be able to be 100% tuned into the game at all times. Those of us who can devote that much energy to our hobby should be greatfull that we can accomodate it in such a way.
...I have to say that the most of the contentous points that I had to mediate on a regular basis dealt with one member not respecting another member's play style or situation. My $.02...
Spot on Paidin! Been there, done that. I've been doing the the whole MMO thing since EQ launched back in the late 90s. EQ, DAoC, CoH/CoV, Guild Wars, EQ2, WoW, Conquerer Online, Runescape, and who knows how many other smaller budget games I've since forgotten. And respect is the number 1 problem plaguing play style. I've gone from literally playing 20 hours a day in my so-called ill-spent youth to playing on average 2 a day during the week and as much as I can cram in on the weekends. (I'll be the first to admit I've gone from hard-core to working slob!) A little respect towards our fellow humans goes a long way. I feel like preacher-chick right now, but ask yourselves - would you (and I say this as a sweeping generality) treat another person who is standing beside you in RL the same way you are willing to treat the guy standing next to you in-game?
First off the article wasn't written by Jon. Just wanted to point that out to those that address him as if it was.
In response to the article topic -
I think there will always be a varying degree to how seriously people take a game. Some people take it far too seriously in my opinion and others give it no respect at all to the point they ruin it for others. A happy medium like many things in life is always good. The thing with guilds is they bring together like minded people. So some guilds will be "hardcore" others "casual" and others still anywhere in between.
When looking for a guild you should ALWAYS check out their website especially guild forums. You can learn a lot about the people in a guild an thus their general feeling by reading their chat between one another. I also find it a good judge of maturity level also. Everyone looks for something different in the people they group with but usually that thing is they share your desires for a guild. So as long as the people are thinking like you about the game your likely to find it a good guild and enjoy the experience. All games have guilds or parties because the whole concept of MMO is to expose you too other players, against or with, the point is the exposure to other players. There will always be guilds in some shape or form. With guilds comes the desire to share in your achievements so yes guilds advertise their achievements and why not? How many people have college certificates on the wall? Or spots certificates? you do it in "real life" so don't expect anything different in fantasy. Some guilds just do it too a more obtusive degree and some guilds are far too elitist but again that is something you need to judge as an individual.
Guilds are essential for any MMO because it fosters fellowship to defeat the more difficult goals a game has too offer. Take WoW as an example the "end game" content is guild only content realisticly. You tend to find people do not join guilds straight away but much later in the game so it adds another layer and provides longer playability to a game. Once you have done all that you can do alone you join a guild and open up the next treasure chest of adventures. It's good game design and we like to play with other people. Experiences on the whole are generally far more enjoyable if you have someone to share them with. That is human nature we are naturally socialable and that is why you picked up an MMO in the first place as opposed to something single player.
I do often wonder why someone plays an MMO if they don't want to be socialable. Anyone who says they don't want to join a guild hasn't found the right guild yet. They just need to find one that fits their needs.
So Steve my advice to you is keep looking till you find the guild that fits your needs and see's things similarly to you. After all we surround ourselves with those who share our ideals, goals and feelings in "real life". Oh and just treat those with far too much e-ego with the same contempt you treat those you meet on a daily basis.
I don't feel sympathy for casuals who play a raiding game. I hate raiding, and I don't play raid games. Seems to me like a pretty good plan. If you want a casual game don't play WoW! If you are a casual and you're subscribing to WoW you have no right to complain. Don't be a sucker, and then expect people to listen to you.
Originally posted by ThamorisIt's a valid discussion and he made several valid points. Stop using " emo " ..btw...you made a good post until you included that trendy and immature slang. Even my teenage daughter has stopped saying " emo" ..thank god.
Excellent article. It emphasizes how the MMORPG genre is changing after a decade of stagnaation under hardcore game mechanics.
"They also happen to be the audience that more and more games are retreating from, even the bastion of uber leetness that once was Vangaurd. Honestly, the entire genre will probably be better off."
Well said.
It's incredibly amusing how Vanguard is now vehemently denying the hardcore title they once claimed so proudly before reality or common sense splashed them in the face. But I doubt that just creating a new definition called'core player' is going to change the game from its roots.
It's past time MMORPGs evolve even though there will be those who refuse to accept the inevitable. Thery're the ones who loudly claim how previous MMORPGs made players 'earn' thier ubar skillz and complain just as loudly about the lack of tedious, timesink game mechnics in the new generation of games.
The rest of us will be walking over their fossilized remains.
This is in the eyes of a casual gamer remember that.
In many MMO's the casual and elitist gamers have a tendency of ending up fighting each others on forums. The casual player "ruin" the fun for the elit and the other way around. The only way to get a nice community is to brake these 2 factions into diffrent games or servers. Thing is that often the casual gamer want to do same thing as elitist people just that they want do it in their own time (PvE wise), PvP the elitist want to be #1 and casuals just want to "have fun".
Its hard to create a game for casuals only as you want to advance in the game or you quit. When you add something to advance in into the game the elitist players will have a goal also.
That's a good point.
Make a game for casual players and the elite types will " beat it " too fast.
Make a game for the Elite types and you will run off the casual player.
I would like to add though..your casual players tend to be the ones with jobs...and money. They subscribe for longer periods of time and hence....end up paying more money. Money they have because they have jobs. That is usually why they are casual to begin with. They have family and jobs. The casual player is more likely to have multiple accounts too to accomodate siblings and spouses.
The Elite types are often younger folks with more time on their hands or an adults still living in mom's basement...MAYBE holding down a part time job at 7-11. They burn through games faster and end money spent in game is often less than the casual player.
If I was creating a mmorpg...I would cater to the casual audience first. As a guild leader who prefers to have a good size guild...I cater to the casual player as well ....they continue their subs longer.
To each their own in the end...just the opinions of this here gamer dad.
You make an excellent point. For example: I am a full time employee, a manager at a local publishing company. I have been a subscriber to WoW since February of 2005. I have maintained an uninterrupted subscription to WoW now since I started. But I rarely have time to play more than 8-10 hours a week, and I have only 1 60th level character follower by a couple 40's.
In contrast, my girlfriend is a recent student, vascillates between jobs, and while she's been playing since April of 06, of the 9 odd months she has only paid for perhaps 5 of those months (the rest were interrupted due to limited funds). Nonetheless, with no job often during this time, she has managed to generate 2 level 60's and several 40+ characters. And yeah, lots of tier this and tier that crap. Of whcih I have nothing....not a single tier anything. I don't even really know what to do to get them....I haven't got the time to raid and until recently the pvp time investment was too vast (and the payout/fun factor too small).
This is in the eyes of a casual gamer remember that.
In many MMO's the casual and elitist gamers have a tendency of ending up fighting each others on forums. The casual player "ruin" the fun for the elit and the other way around. The only way to get a nice community is to brake these 2 factions into diffrent games or servers. Thing is that often the casual gamer want to do same thing as elitist people just that they want do it in their own time (PvE wise), PvP the elitist want to be #1 and casuals just want to "have fun".
Its hard to create a game for casuals only as you want to advance in the game or you quit. When you add something to advance in into the game the elitist players will have a goal also.
That's a good point.
Make a game for casual players and the elite types will " beat it " too fast.
Make a game for the Elite types and you will run off the casual player.
I would like to add though..your casual players tend to be the ones with jobs...and money. They subscribe for longer periods of time and hence....end up paying more money. Money they have because they have jobs. That is usually why they are casual to begin with. They have family and jobs. The casual player is more likely to have multiple accounts too to accomodate siblings and spouses.
The Elite types are often younger folks with more time on their hands or an adults still living in mom's basement...MAYBE holding down a part time job at 7-11. They burn through games faster and end money spent in game is often less than the casual player.
If I was creating a mmorpg...I would cater to the casual audience first. As a guild leader who prefers to have a good size guild...I cater to the casual player as well ....they continue their subs longer.
To each their own in the end...just the opinions of this here gamer dad.
You are stereotyping entirely too much. Before WoW, most MMORPG gamers were hardcore, if hardcore is defined by a person who puts in 20+ hours a week and takes the game seriously, which is fun for them). For example, I am 26 years old, married, have a son who is already in school, but I am also a hardcore gamer, because gaming is my chosen hobby. I've played MMORPG's for around 4.5 years now, starting with Motor City Online and DAoC. Guilds at that time, that were made up of people like me had a filtering process, which basically was that you had to group with them first, to make sure that you were a mature minded person, and you had to read the guild charter and agree to it on their forums. Yes you had to make an effort to join the guild, but most things worth having require some effort.
With WoW, casual gamers entered the market a lot more and now they dominate the market, however, they are mostly secluded to WoW, so the more hardcore games still retain their hardcore community and game makers are still churning out games for both communities. My point is this, hardcore gamers have existed since the dawn of MMORPG's and kids really didn't start flooding in until WoW made its appearance. Granted, I've never played with people with PhD's, but I have played with many people that has graduated college and has a good job, blue collar workers who learned a skill or trade, and of course people who are just working odd jobs to get through life. Many had families of their own, some were in college, very few were under 19yrs of age, and other may have been living with their parents still while going to school. The point is that hardcore gamers are also likely to have good jobs and families as well, it is just that we have different priorities than casual gamers.
I for one like to Roleplay and MMORPG's is the only way for me to do that. I prefer to RP through adventure, not in a tavern, so I tend to look for guilds that support my playstyle and who are mature minded people. MMORPG's is like a second life for me, where I can be that Elf Wizard and fight powerful dragons, that I can't be in real life. For some, MMORPG's are a way to escape the tedium of life and their avatars are just tools to have fun. For others it is a hobby, to where it serves as a medium to live out another life, that we can't live out on Earth. And others look at MMORPG's as a competition sport, having to be the first or the best.
I am a hardcore gamer, but that is because I invest around 20 hours a week and I get involved with guilds that set themselves up like small governments. To each their own, but try not to stereotype people like me into something that is far from who I am in real life. It is insulting and I don't think you would appreciate it if I were to do it to you.
Thanks
You are not hardcore then mate. Maybe by your own standards...but not by mine. Perhaps you WANT to be hardcore..perhaps you play hard WHEN you play..but..20hrs a week is not hardcore..that is casual. I would define hardcore as someone that puts in 40+ hours a week and has only one objective...to be the best at any cost.
FYI...casual games existed before WoW...take Horizons as one example. That game would have taken off if it weren't for the terrible launch and terrible management later. Horizons was made specifically for the casual gamer.
I may stereotype anyone I please..tyvm. Stereotypes exist for a reason....they refer to a majority. IF you are an exception ( which I doubt from your post ) ...than you can disregard my post.
I am 35yrs old, a father of 3, have a full time job, have happy marriage, own a house, and consider myself casual even though I play 30+ hours a week and lead a guild with over 100 active members.
I find it a tragedy that we consider 20 hours a week to be "casual." In fact I've been told (at 8-10 hours a week) that I am very casual. Somehow, people, we have really screwed up our priorities in life when we consider it a badge fo honor to claim that we are hardcore if we spend as much time in a game as we do at work. Personally, I consider it like this:
Less than 8 hours a week: casual
8-16 hours a week: a hobbyist/gamer
16-24 hours a week: hardcore
24+ hours a week: obsessive compulsive, may have an addiction problem, could be affecting real life depending on circmustances
40+ hours a week: requiring therapy/reevaluating life goals; most likely failing at school/work/homelife.
But alas, most MMORGers, especially the "hardcore" ones, consider it a badge of honor to claim that they play 30+ hours a week in these games. That is not a badge of honor: it is a cry for help. You need to look at your life more carefully if so much of it is being invested in a game like this.
Edit/add:
This of it like this: If you play 30 hours a week, divided out over seven days, then you are averaging 4-5 hours a night. For a working person who spends 8 hours at work, with 1-2 hours a day of time spent showering, eating, and commuting (add an hour if you live in Seattle, LA or another big city) then you're looking at a full 14-15 hour day already; that leaves about 1-2 hours at the most for socializing with family, reading, engaging in other hobbiest and pursuits, cleaning, etc. That's assuming you sleep a full 8 hours, too....chances are you might be getting other things done, but sacrificing a good night's sleep to get the game time in.
So when someone speaks of 40+ hours of game play, it's pretty obvious that they are making major sacrifces with their real life circumstance to churn out experience and honor points in game.
Let's all keep this in perspective......this hobby is very dangerous to addictive and compulsive personalities, alas.
Not sure what the point is Jon. Of course there are different types of guilds for different sorts of players. You prefer casual guilds, I've had some good times in them as well, but of course, there are guilds formed that have more structured goals and purposes. Jon says hardcore, structured guilds can be elitist and look down at more casual players, however he's doing the same thing by mocking them for the work ethic, decrying that its not fun to attend meetings, raids etc. But for those players, who's primary goal in the game is to experience all of the end game PvE raiding content WoW or some other game has to offer, its not a bad trade off. As Jon said... his guild's never seen the inside of MC... fine.. but other people wanted to take down Naxx...and it really can't be done without a well organized team. Organization has its price sometimes...you put up with rigid raiding schedules, raid leaders getting a bit hysterical when we wipe, healers getting yelled at for not healing (like, what else are they doing?) or who was the idiot who just pulled the boss before everyone was ready. (and getting /gkicked) Sure, raiding isn't that fun for some folks, but I was in a raiding guild where the member really loved it... as long as they continued to make progress (and they got half way through Naxx before BC came along an invalidated it) so no reason to bang on them. They are willing to put up with the work, pain and suffereing to accomplish the games goals... you may not want to join them...but don't slam them either. (blame Blizzard for coming up with an end-game like this) As for pre-formed or guild PvP groups excluding the casuals, not surprising, PUG players are considered to be less skilled, and mostly useless in their eyes, so why should they let other players share in their honor points? They are trying to fight together as a team... and have no use for the casual pick up player. Again, their choice, they can play the game they want to, they pay their money like anyone else.
I can easily get that stuff without even trying hard where I work, and I work hard to avoid it.
Tell me where these hard-core folks work, and I'll be sure to talk to their bosses to give them the aggravation they need, so that they don't need to seek it out in their leisure time.
Needless to say, my preferences are aligned with Steve Wilson's (not the first time that has happened). In spite of the sarcasm, I don't begrudge folks who want to play a different way. I do begrudge them when they try to convert me to their lifestyle because they figure I might be the real deal, compared to all the wannabes looking to associate with them for bragging rights. It's exactly the same reaction I have had toward religious proselytizers: the fact that I happen to be unencumbered by companions does not indicate that I need your structures and strictures for companionship.
Have any of you ever considered that the whole hardcore / casual debate is really about mindset rather than time alotted? No matter how many hours you play or how many people are in your guild, if you are the kind of person who dislikes gathering 40 people for a raid, you are likely casual. If you hate the thought of sitting in front of a computer for 8 hours straight just for the slight chance at getting a single piece of loot, you are casual. If you despise progression at a snails pace, you are casual. If you hate meaningless time sinks, ridiculous game mechanics and eliticism in general, you are likely a casual player. If you like any and all of the above, you are obviously hardcore.
These two styles of play can never get along, because its a fundamental difference not only in philosophy, but in execution. A game cannot cater to both without stepping on the toes of another. Build a game hardcore and you alienate casuals. Build a game casual and you alienate hardcores. Build a game to cater to both and you alienate both equally. Players invest time and money into these games and it frustrates them to no end if they see a game cater more to a play style other than their own. They want to get their money's worth, but how can a casual do that if every single end game in the MMO market is specifically tailored for hardcore raiders? Even casual games like World of Warcraft and City of Heroes have end games that cater almost completely to hardcores. So its not to be unexepcted to see so many articles and complaints from so many casuals on this very topic. Historically, guilds have been in the forefront of the hardcore movement, so its to be expected that there will be negative feelings towards them from the casual community.
How much time you spend in a game does not determine your hardcore / casual status, its how you play the game or what you're willing to put up with in regards to game mechanics and content.
I think the gaming industry is only just beginning to pick up on this dynamic. In the past, they could make everything hardcore and it was all fine and dandy. Back then, they were happy with 200,000 to 450,000 subscribers. Its a completely differenct ballpark now. People aren't willing to put up with as much crap as they did back then. On top of that, companies want larger profits, which means they can't sit on old paradigms and expect to hit the jackpot. World of Warcraft has learned a valuable lesson recently. The casual community finally stood up for themselves and lashed out at Blizzard for changing a casual game into a hardcore raiding disaster post level 55. As a result, they've added significant non-raiding content in their expansion, but its my opinion that they've done too little too late. The industry can no longer take our loyalty for granted nor can they expect to succeed in future ventures while using outdated gaming paradigms.
They will have to create games that are more stream lined for specific target audiences, the all in one packages just aren't going to cut it anymore. Players expect to be entertained from beginning to end. They expect content to be accessible at all levels. They expect the money that they invest to be used on content that they enjoy. These are perfectly reasonable expectations, but they cannot be achieved if you daub and wattle in multiple play styles into a single game.
With PvE raiding, it has never been a question of being "good enough". I play games to have fun, not to be a simpering toady sitting through hour after hour of mind numbing boredom and fawning over a guild master in the hopes that he will condescend to reward me with shiny bits of loot. But in games where those people get the highest progression, anyone who doesn't do that will just be a moving target for them and I'll be damned if I'm going to pay money for the privilege. - Neanderthal
if you enjoyed baseball and you wanted to play baseball with other people, what would you do?
Perhaps... you would go join a team...
Now, after you went to try out for the team and they told you about the "mandatory practices" and the fact that you would need to be there for a scheduled games... would you throw a fit??? Well, maybe you wouldnt even make it that far because you would deny them as soon as they asked you to fill out an application...
My point is, if you want to be a casual baseball player, you go and play with the people that play on the local field. There's nothing wrong with that. But you dont sit around, pissing and moaning, about how big of losers the people on teams must be because they have scheduled meetings and games.
Baseball is a game, so are MMOs. Some people choose to take the game seriously because they ENJOY having a structuring to their playing. Maybe they LIKE getting together with the same large group of people and playing together. It may not be your thing, hell it isnt even MY thing. I hate raiding. I hate it with a seething passion. In effect, I stay away from games that focus on it (i.e. WoW). But if that's what they enjoy, well then so be it. My girlfriend loves to raid. I dont get it, and frankly I dont want to get it.
I was on the track team in high school, and not once was I ever running and someone came running by yelling "YOU LOSERS WITH YOUR ORGANIZED RUNNING TIMES! GET A LIFE! I RUN TO HAVE FUN!"
My main point for now 5 years, is that WEAK DESIGN support and enforce this type of behavior. Group uberness have to be earned in groups, not in raids. I can't repeat that often enought. These persons harms soloing and grouping a LOT more than the devs seem to understand...and they also make for a poor raiding experience if you try it.
See, true hardcores players would love the idea of doing PUG groups, it is the ultimate challenge, to do with less efficient peoples. But no, they scorn on them and have to show their ego. If grouping uberness was earned in groups, these players COULD earn it, but they would not have an exclusive right over group uberness!
I am sure the OP would find it nice to progress toward uberness, even if he can't commit the total effort for it...I am also sure that the OP would find it great to meet peoples that complete it and are happy to group PUGs folks and take extra challenges. This can only happen if group uberness is earned...by grouping!
- "If I understand you well, you are telling me until next time. " - Ren
This is in the eyes of a casual gamer remember that.
In many MMO's the casual and elitist gamers have a tendency of ending up fighting each others on forums. The casual player "ruin" the fun for the elit and the other way around. The only way to get a nice community is to brake these 2 factions into diffrent games or servers. Thing is that often the casual gamer want to do same thing as elitist people just that they want do it in their own time (PvE wise), PvP the elitist want to be #1 and casuals just want to "have fun".
Its hard to create a game for casuals only as you want to advance in the game or you quit. When you add something to advance in into the game the elitist players will have a goal also.
I support these "casuals". I am by no mean a casual, I am a hardcore grouper who rebell at the fact that grouping doesn't have the keys to itselfs. Best groupers have to earn it by grouping; period.
- "If I understand you well, you are telling me until next time. " - Ren
Some people want to grow up to be doctors and lawyers, others perhaps dream of being able to play online game all day long and be the best in that virtual world. No doubt many will jump at the chance if there is such job as professional MMORPG player.
Sounds like a fantasy world? Well, in Korea there is a pro circuit for online gamers. Game makers will sponsor online competitions in the game world and reward winners or winning group prize money. Some of the elite gamers are celebrities and even have fan clubs. Their websites earns advertisement revenue. All it takes is for a couple second tier game makers desperate to capture the market to use similar ideas to promote their games and same thing could happen elsewhere.
Well said, friend. Guilds have their place, and that place is for fun - when it stops being fun, I have to leave. Life is too short to work at an in game job.
That's "your" perception... For me, life is too short to loose my time with tourist who can't focus on a common guild goal that they consider as a job, while i consider it as a sport...
What deserves to be done, deserves to be "well" done...
Excellent column...these are games, not life choices. I am often online, probably more than 20 hours a week, but I move from character to character in short bursts of time. I have been leader in two guilds and senior officer in at least seven more. They all devolved into the 'inner circle' concept, where the many helped the few. Not for me...and I gave the guilds a fair chance...I don't need someone to hold my hand...
On more serious note... C'mon. Get real here. Some people like taking their entertainment more seriously than others. Bottom line really IS that simple. Some people like a relaxed, casual atmosphere. Others don't enjoy their entertainment unless they are pushing themselves to compete against something.
The thing is - there are guilds out there for BOTH types of people. Join the kind you like playing with.
If you like a "hardcore" play atmosphere, join the sort of guild that encourages such. If you're a die-hard roleplayer, join a guild that pushes ingame roleplay. If you're a very laid back player, join a casual bunch of folks. It's sorta like comparing people who enjoy chess, and play a few games a week with friends at home or at a local club, to those who compete at chess, read dozens of books and play hard to excel.
NEITHER is superior to the other. If we were talking about life or death, then the more devoted or skilled person is obviously superior. In a real world sword fight, you want to be the guy who spent the last ten years with a sword in hand ten hours a day, not the casual fencer. But these are games, and people are free to play them however they want.
Join the guild that suits your needs. Don't expect others to conform their playstyle to yours, and don't cry when you run into a guild whose members tastes differ from yours.
It all come down to what the guild goals are (set by usually the guild leader and officers) and how much they deviate from any potential member's goals.
If you plan to join a guild with completely different goals and a completely different approach to the game, it is obvious that you (and them) will not get the same rewarding experience out of it. And this holds true for any group is running a quest, it doesn't necessarily have to be a raid activity.
As far as I'm concerned, I don't mind people that are not yet proficient with their character (but at least try to learn how to), are undergeared, don't know their way around the world, make mistakes (sometimes fatal), etc. I do mind when they disregard any prior experience other members of the team have and ignore advice, run off to do their own thing, go afk for prolonged periods without prior warning (leaving the rest of the team waiting for them, I do have limited play time and I do intend to make the most out of it). Then again, my fellow guild-mates call me weird for running quests and instances with people I hardly know and are usually very fresh into the game.
Bottom line, all types of players can co-exist in the same game, just not in the same guild(s). And I would like the companies to try and cater to both groups if possible. I know it's hard, but it does broaden the horizons of the things we can do in a game. Alot of my friends that left my (goal progressing) guild, returned into the casual game. Others left their past guilds and join mine, because they wanted a more "serious" approach to the game. Life is ever-changing and the circumstances can change a casual to hardcore and vice versa. I don't want to lose the friends I made out there because the game becomes meaningless once the play-style changes.
Comments
Well as usual I do not posty very often but read the forums and comments almost everyday. It took sensible and very good comments from a Member named Thamaris (I do not know him at all) to get me to actually post and comment from my desk at work!
Gratz Thamaris on all your comments. I am a casual player and have almost never participated in Guirl Raids due to my play time. I have 3 kids, a house, a full time job and after supper, dishes, and homework that may ony leave me about 1 -2 hours or interuppted play time per week day. So for me to actually have to get ready to go on a 5-6 Raid is absolutely impossible. Besides every Guild Hunt (not Raid) I have attended NEVER ever starts at the assigned time but usually like 1-2 hours late as peeps change toons go back to town to get better equipment etc.... No matter how much planning you do in advance if your biggest Tank or Healer is late, then you have to wait!!! I can't imagine a Raid of 3 or 4 guilds with like 40 toons in each Guild.
Heck I only play 1 Toon (no Aults) because I do not have the time to play more.....
Yea, I would tend to aggree that the casual player tends to keep his/her account active much longer then the Hard-Core player. Hard-Core players in my experience (as a Guild Leader) tend to be much more demanding, get upset quicker and usually quit or change servers or even games when they have done everything there is to do in a game. Our casual Guild moved from DAoC to WOW and we were small and had fun even though 98% of us were all casual family type people: then the Hard-Core players that had joined in the begining wanted more Raids and would get upset because us "casual" players could not attend "their" hours of Play..so they moved on to other guilds more suited to them. Saying that: there is nothing wrong with a Hard Core Guild or a Casual Guild but most definetely the 2 do not mix at all and I can assure you that I have the experience to back it up.
I play MMos' Fantasy based games to get that "escape" feeling from everyday life....that last thing I need is "Where the hell have you been" and "If you do not come you no longer in this Guild" thing when I log in. Well sorry Real Life happens!!!! I do not have my Mom uypstairs cooking supper and washing my close for me while I play 40 hours + of my Fav online Game. But I f I only log into my toon 2-3 times a week for like 1-2 hours per play session and I get to say Hello to my fellow "family" guild friends..then it is worth every single penny of my monthly subscription.....Heck on 2 occasions I have purchased a second account so my daughter or my wife can "casually" game with me and have some "fantasy" play time together...not a second acount to robot-heal my toon etc....
I do not play Mmorpgs for the money, the loot, the levels, the prestige...I play to have fun and if having fun with other players through a "casual" Guild is possible...then I am in!!!
BTW Thamoris, if I ever play Horizons or if you ever play EQ2, we need to connect...pees with your views and maturity in MMRoPGs are rare indeed.
Rad
Its worse to actually think about doing something then actually doing it!!!
Being somewhat new to the forums, I'd like to make a simple observation. The problem isn't the "elites" doing their own thing or even the "casuals" doing theirs. It seems to be the inability of both sides to respect eachother's play styles. Having been an officer in a wow guild for over a year and watching the guild go from 20-something mature 5-man dungeon runners to a 60-something "casual" raiding guild I have to say that the most of the contentous points that I had to mediate on a regular basis dealt with one member not respecting another member's play style or situation. I recall having to constantly look out for a first time mother who would frequently go away without notice in the middle of a raid to tend to her child. Did we whipe sometimes? You bet your socks, but all it took to resolve a potential personality conflict was to remind the members that we all have lives outside the game and we need to respect the fact that not everyone will be able to be 100% tuned into the game at all times. Those of us who can devote that much energy to our hobby should be greatfull that we can accomodate it in such a way.
My $.02.
Spot on Paidin! Been there, done that. I've been doing the the whole MMO thing since EQ launched back in the late 90s. EQ, DAoC, CoH/CoV, Guild Wars, EQ2, WoW, Conquerer Online, Runescape, and who knows how many other smaller budget games I've since forgotten. And respect is the number 1 problem plaguing play style. I've gone from literally playing 20 hours a day in my so-called ill-spent youth to playing on average 2 a day during the week and as much as I can cram in on the weekends. (I'll be the first to admit I've gone from hard-core to working slob!) A little respect towards our fellow humans goes a long way. I feel like preacher-chick right now, but ask yourselves - would you (and I say this as a sweeping generality) treat another person who is standing beside you in RL the same way you are willing to treat the guy standing next to you in-game?
Done preaching now.
Well said, friend. Guilds have their place, and that place is for fun - when it stops being fun, I have to leave.
Life is too short to work at an in game job.
"Life is too short to play nerfed characters."
First off the article wasn't written by Jon. Just wanted to point that out to those that address him as if it was.
In response to the article topic -
I think there will always be a varying degree to how seriously people take a game. Some people take it far too seriously in my opinion and others give it no respect at all to the point they ruin it for others. A happy medium like many things in life is always good. The thing with guilds is they bring together like minded people. So some guilds will be "hardcore" others "casual" and others still anywhere in between.
When looking for a guild you should ALWAYS check out their website especially guild forums. You can learn a lot about the people in a guild an thus their general feeling by reading their chat between one another. I also find it a good judge of maturity level also. Everyone looks for something different in the people they group with but usually that thing is they share your desires for a guild. So as long as the people are thinking like you about the game your likely to find it a good guild and enjoy the experience. All games have guilds or parties because the whole concept of MMO is to expose you too other players, against or with, the point is the exposure to other players. There will always be guilds in some shape or form. With guilds comes the desire to share in your achievements so yes guilds advertise their achievements and why not? How many people have college certificates on the wall? Or spots certificates? you do it in "real life" so don't expect anything different in fantasy. Some guilds just do it too a more obtusive degree and some guilds are far too elitist but again that is something you need to judge as an individual.
Guilds are essential for any MMO because it fosters fellowship to defeat the more difficult goals a game has too offer. Take WoW as an example the "end game" content is guild only content realisticly. You tend to find people do not join guilds straight away but much later in the game so it adds another layer and provides longer playability to a game. Once you have done all that you can do alone you join a guild and open up the next treasure chest of adventures. It's good game design and we like to play with other people. Experiences on the whole are generally far more enjoyable if you have someone to share them with. That is human nature we are naturally socialable and that is why you picked up an MMO in the first place as opposed to something single player.
I do often wonder why someone plays an MMO if they don't want to be socialable. Anyone who says they don't want to join a guild hasn't found the right guild yet. They just need to find one that fits their needs.
So Steve my advice to you is keep looking till you find the guild that fits your needs and see's things similarly to you. After all we surround ourselves with those who share our ideals, goals and feelings in "real life". Oh and just treat those with far too much e-ego with the same contempt you treat those you meet on a daily basis.
If all else fails /ignore :-)
Excellent article. It emphasizes how the MMORPG genre is changing after a decade of stagnaation under hardcore game mechanics.
"They also happen to be the audience that more and more games are retreating from, even the bastion of uber leetness that once was Vangaurd. Honestly, the entire genre will probably be better off."
Well said.
It's incredibly amusing how Vanguard is now vehemently denying the hardcore title they once claimed so proudly before reality or common sense splashed them in the face. But I doubt that just creating a new definition called'core player' is going to change the game from its roots.
It's past time MMORPGs evolve even though there will be those who refuse to accept the inevitable. Thery're the ones who loudly claim how previous MMORPGs made players 'earn' thier ubar skillz and complain just as loudly about the lack of tedious, timesink game mechnics in the new generation of games.
The rest of us will be walking over their fossilized remains.
That's a good point.
Make a game for casual players and the elite types will " beat it " too fast.
Make a game for the Elite types and you will run off the casual player.
I would like to add though..your casual players tend to be the ones with jobs...and money. They subscribe for longer periods of time and hence....end up paying more money. Money they have because they have jobs. That is usually why they are casual to begin with. They have family and jobs. The casual player is more likely to have multiple accounts too to accomodate siblings and spouses.
The Elite types are often younger folks with more time on their hands or an adults still living in mom's basement...MAYBE holding down a part time job at 7-11. They burn through games faster and end money spent in game is often less than the casual player.
If I was creating a mmorpg...I would cater to the casual audience first. As a guild leader who prefers to have a good size guild...I cater to the casual player as well ....they continue their subs longer.
To each their own in the end...just the opinions of this here gamer dad.
You make an excellent point. For example: I am a full time employee, a manager at a local publishing company. I have been a subscriber to WoW since February of 2005. I have maintained an uninterrupted subscription to WoW now since I started. But I rarely have time to play more than 8-10 hours a week, and I have only 1 60th level character follower by a couple 40's.
In contrast, my girlfriend is a recent student, vascillates between jobs, and while she's been playing since April of 06, of the 9 odd months she has only paid for perhaps 5 of those months (the rest were interrupted due to limited funds). Nonetheless, with no job often during this time, she has managed to generate 2 level 60's and several 40+ characters. And yeah, lots of tier this and tier that crap. Of whcih I have nothing....not a single tier anything. I don't even really know what to do to get them....I haven't got the time to raid and until recently the pvp time investment was too vast (and the payout/fun factor too small).
Current MMOs: Rift, GW2, Defiance
Blog: http://realmsofchirak.blogspot.com (old school tabletop gaming and more)
That's a good point.
Make a game for casual players and the elite types will " beat it " too fast.
Make a game for the Elite types and you will run off the casual player.
I would like to add though..your casual players tend to be the ones with jobs...and money. They subscribe for longer periods of time and hence....end up paying more money. Money they have because they have jobs. That is usually why they are casual to begin with. They have family and jobs. The casual player is more likely to have multiple accounts too to accomodate siblings and spouses.
The Elite types are often younger folks with more time on their hands or an adults still living in mom's basement...MAYBE holding down a part time job at 7-11. They burn through games faster and end money spent in game is often less than the casual player.
If I was creating a mmorpg...I would cater to the casual audience first. As a guild leader who prefers to have a good size guild...I cater to the casual player as well ....they continue their subs longer.
To each their own in the end...just the opinions of this here gamer dad.
You are stereotyping entirely too much. Before WoW, most MMORPG gamers were hardcore, if hardcore is defined by a person who puts in 20+ hours a week and takes the game seriously, which is fun for them). For example, I am 26 years old, married, have a son who is already in school, but I am also a hardcore gamer, because gaming is my chosen hobby. I've played MMORPG's for around 4.5 years now, starting with Motor City Online and DAoC. Guilds at that time, that were made up of people like me had a filtering process, which basically was that you had to group with them first, to make sure that you were a mature minded person, and you had to read the guild charter and agree to it on their forums. Yes you had to make an effort to join the guild, but most things worth having require some effort.
With WoW, casual gamers entered the market a lot more and now they dominate the market, however, they are mostly secluded to WoW, so the more hardcore games still retain their hardcore community and game makers are still churning out games for both communities. My point is this, hardcore gamers have existed since the dawn of MMORPG's and kids really didn't start flooding in until WoW made its appearance. Granted, I've never played with people with PhD's, but I have played with many people that has graduated college and has a good job, blue collar workers who learned a skill or trade, and of course people who are just working odd jobs to get through life. Many had families of their own, some were in college, very few were under 19yrs of age, and other may have been living with their parents still while going to school. The point is that hardcore gamers are also likely to have good jobs and families as well, it is just that we have different priorities than casual gamers.
I for one like to Roleplay and MMORPG's is the only way for me to do that. I prefer to RP through adventure, not in a tavern, so I tend to look for guilds that support my playstyle and who are mature minded people. MMORPG's is like a second life for me, where I can be that Elf Wizard and fight powerful dragons, that I can't be in real life. For some, MMORPG's are a way to escape the tedium of life and their avatars are just tools to have fun. For others it is a hobby, to where it serves as a medium to live out another life, that we can't live out on Earth. And others look at MMORPG's as a competition sport, having to be the first or the best.
I am a hardcore gamer, but that is because I invest around 20 hours a week and I get involved with guilds that set themselves up like small governments. To each their own, but try not to stereotype people like me into something that is far from who I am in real life. It is insulting and I don't think you would appreciate it if I were to do it to you.
Thanks
You are not hardcore then mate. Maybe by your own standards...but not by mine. Perhaps you WANT to be hardcore..perhaps you play hard WHEN you play..but..20hrs a week is not hardcore..that is casual. I would define hardcore as someone that puts in 40+ hours a week and has only one objective...to be the best at any cost.
FYI...casual games existed before WoW...take Horizons as one example. That game would have taken off if it weren't for the terrible launch and terrible management later. Horizons was made specifically for the casual gamer.
I may stereotype anyone I please..tyvm. Stereotypes exist for a reason....they refer to a majority. IF you are an exception ( which I doubt from your post ) ...than you can disregard my post.
I am 35yrs old, a father of 3, have a full time job, have happy marriage, own a house, and consider myself casual even though I play 30+ hours a week and lead a guild with over 100 active members.
I find it a tragedy that we consider 20 hours a week to be "casual." In fact I've been told (at 8-10 hours a week) that I am very casual. Somehow, people, we have really screwed up our priorities in life when we consider it a badge fo honor to claim that we are hardcore if we spend as much time in a game as we do at work. Personally, I consider it like this:
Less than 8 hours a week: casual
8-16 hours a week: a hobbyist/gamer
16-24 hours a week: hardcore
24+ hours a week: obsessive compulsive, may have an addiction problem, could be affecting real life depending on circmustances
40+ hours a week: requiring therapy/reevaluating life goals; most likely failing at school/work/homelife.
But alas, most MMORGers, especially the "hardcore" ones, consider it a badge of honor to claim that they play 30+ hours a week in these games. That is not a badge of honor: it is a cry for help. You need to look at your life more carefully if so much of it is being invested in a game like this.
Edit/add:
This of it like this: If you play 30 hours a week, divided out over seven days, then you are averaging 4-5 hours a night. For a working person who spends 8 hours at work, with 1-2 hours a day of time spent showering, eating, and commuting (add an hour if you live in Seattle, LA or another big city) then you're looking at a full 14-15 hour day already; that leaves about 1-2 hours at the most for socializing with family, reading, engaging in other hobbiest and pursuits, cleaning, etc. That's assuming you sleep a full 8 hours, too....chances are you might be getting other things done, but sacrificing a good night's sleep to get the game time in.
So when someone speaks of 40+ hours of game play, it's pretty obvious that they are making major sacrifces with their real life circumstance to churn out experience and honor points in game.
Let's all keep this in perspective......this hobby is very dangerous to addictive and compulsive personalities, alas.
Current MMOs: Rift, GW2, Defiance
Blog: http://realmsofchirak.blogspot.com (old school tabletop gaming and more)
I can easily get that stuff without even trying hard where I work, and I work hard to avoid it.
Tell me where these hard-core folks work, and I'll be sure to talk to their bosses to give them the aggravation they need, so that they don't need to seek it out in their leisure time.
Needless to say, my preferences are aligned with Steve Wilson's (not the first time that has happened). In spite of the sarcasm, I don't begrudge folks who want to play a different way. I do begrudge them when they try to convert me to their lifestyle because they figure I might be the real deal, compared to all the wannabes looking to associate with them for bragging rights. It's exactly the same reaction I have had toward religious proselytizers: the fact that I happen to be unencumbered by companions does not indicate that I need your structures and strictures for companionship.
Have any of you ever considered that the whole hardcore / casual debate is really about mindset rather than time alotted? No matter how many hours you play or how many people are in your guild, if you are the kind of person who dislikes gathering 40 people for a raid, you are likely casual. If you hate the thought of sitting in front of a computer for 8 hours straight just for the slight chance at getting a single piece of loot, you are casual. If you despise progression at a snails pace, you are casual. If you hate meaningless time sinks, ridiculous game mechanics and eliticism in general, you are likely a casual player. If you like any and all of the above, you are obviously hardcore.
These two styles of play can never get along, because its a fundamental difference not only in philosophy, but in execution. A game cannot cater to both without stepping on the toes of another. Build a game hardcore and you alienate casuals. Build a game casual and you alienate hardcores. Build a game to cater to both and you alienate both equally. Players invest time and money into these games and it frustrates them to no end if they see a game cater more to a play style other than their own. They want to get their money's worth, but how can a casual do that if every single end game in the MMO market is specifically tailored for hardcore raiders? Even casual games like World of Warcraft and City of Heroes have end games that cater almost completely to hardcores. So its not to be unexepcted to see so many articles and complaints from so many casuals on this very topic. Historically, guilds have been in the forefront of the hardcore movement, so its to be expected that there will be negative feelings towards them from the casual community.
How much time you spend in a game does not determine your hardcore / casual status, its how you play the game or what you're willing to put up with in regards to game mechanics and content.
I think the gaming industry is only just beginning to pick up on this dynamic. In the past, they could make everything hardcore and it was all fine and dandy. Back then, they were happy with 200,000 to 450,000 subscribers. Its a completely differenct ballpark now. People aren't willing to put up with as much crap as they did back then. On top of that, companies want larger profits, which means they can't sit on old paradigms and expect to hit the jackpot. World of Warcraft has learned a valuable lesson recently. The casual community finally stood up for themselves and lashed out at Blizzard for changing a casual game into a hardcore raiding disaster post level 55. As a result, they've added significant non-raiding content in their expansion, but its my opinion that they've done too little too late. The industry can no longer take our loyalty for granted nor can they expect to succeed in future ventures while using outdated gaming paradigms.
They will have to create games that are more stream lined for specific target audiences, the all in one packages just aren't going to cut it anymore. Players expect to be entertained from beginning to end. They expect content to be accessible at all levels. They expect the money that they invest to be used on content that they enjoy. These are perfectly reasonable expectations, but they cannot be achieved if you daub and wattle in multiple play styles into a single game.
With PvE raiding, it has never been a question of being "good enough". I play games to have fun, not to be a simpering toady sitting through hour after hour of mind numbing boredom and fawning over a guild master in the hopes that he will condescend to reward me with shiny bits of loot. But in games where those people get the highest progression, anyone who doesn't do that will just be a moving target for them and I'll be damned if I'm going to pay money for the privilege. - Neanderthal
I like the way the writer puts it. That's almost exactly my feelings and experiences dealing with such guilds and individuals.
If anyone's in for fun guild of friendly, casual and capable of self-derision, please drop Fyrr an email/tell on a VG server near you
Perhaps... you would go join a team...
Now, after you went to try out for the team and they told you about the "mandatory practices" and the fact that you would need to be there for a scheduled games... would you throw a fit??? Well, maybe you wouldnt even make it that far because you would deny them as soon as they asked you to fill out an application...
My point is, if you want to be a casual baseball player, you go and play with the people that play on the local field. There's nothing wrong with that. But you dont sit around, pissing and moaning, about how big of losers the people on teams must be because they have scheduled meetings and games.
Baseball is a game, so are MMOs. Some people choose to take the game seriously because they ENJOY having a structuring to their playing. Maybe they LIKE getting together with the same large group of people and playing together. It may not be your thing, hell it isnt even MY thing. I hate raiding. I hate it with a seething passion. In effect, I stay away from games that focus on it (i.e. WoW). But if that's what they enjoy, well then so be it. My girlfriend loves to raid. I dont get it, and frankly I dont want to get it.
I was on the track team in high school, and not once was I ever running and someone came running by yelling "YOU LOSERS WITH YOUR ORGANIZED RUNNING TIMES! GET A LIFE! I RUN TO HAVE FUN!"
I agree with the OP.
My main point for now 5 years, is that WEAK DESIGN support and enforce this type of behavior. Group uberness have to be earned in groups, not in raids. I can't repeat that often enought. These persons harms soloing and grouping a LOT more than the devs seem to understand...and they also make for a poor raiding experience if you try it.
See, true hardcores players would love the idea of doing PUG groups, it is the ultimate challenge, to do with less efficient peoples. But no, they scorn on them and have to show their ego. If grouping uberness was earned in groups, these players COULD earn it, but they would not have an exclusive right over group uberness!
I am sure the OP would find it nice to progress toward uberness, even if he can't commit the total effort for it...I am also sure that the OP would find it great to meet peoples that complete it and are happy to group PUGs folks and take extra challenges. This can only happen if group uberness is earned...by grouping!
- "If I understand you well, you are telling me until next time. " - Ren
I support these "casuals". I am by no mean a casual, I am a hardcore grouper who rebell at the fact that grouping doesn't have the keys to itselfs. Best groupers have to earn it by grouping; period.
- "If I understand you well, you are telling me until next time. " - Ren
Hardly matter, we will lose 5% of the player base.
And they can add more grouping-challenges and you will gain some other "hardcores" who happen to not be necessarily raiders.
Screwing the whole game for a minority of 5% or less of players, that is ill-thinked.
- "If I understand you well, you are telling me until next time. " - Ren
Some people want to grow up to be doctors and lawyers, others perhaps dream of being able to play online game all day long and be the best in that virtual world. No doubt many will jump at the chance if there is such job as professional MMORPG player.
Sounds like a fantasy world?
Well, in Korea there is a pro circuit for online gamers. Game makers will sponsor online competitions in the game world and reward winners or winning group prize money. Some of the elite gamers are celebrities and even have fan clubs. Their websites earns advertisement revenue. All it takes is for a couple second tier game makers desperate to capture the market to use similar ideas to promote their games and same thing could happen elsewhere. 
I'm right there with Anofayle. I don't think I've ever disagreed with this guy. He is just fair better at articulating why raiding is a complete joke.
What deserves to be done, deserves to be "well" done...
"Cry more, newb"?
On more serious note... C'mon. Get real here. Some people like taking their entertainment more seriously than others. Bottom line really IS that simple. Some people like a relaxed, casual atmosphere. Others don't enjoy their entertainment unless they are pushing themselves to compete against something.
The thing is - there are guilds out there for BOTH types of people. Join the kind you like playing with.
If you like a "hardcore" play atmosphere, join the sort of guild that encourages such. If you're a die-hard roleplayer, join a guild that pushes ingame roleplay. If you're a very laid back player, join a casual bunch of folks. It's sorta like comparing people who enjoy chess, and play a few games a week with friends at home or at a local club, to those who compete at chess, read dozens of books and play hard to excel.
NEITHER is superior to the other. If we were talking about life or death, then the more devoted or skilled person is obviously superior. In a real world sword fight, you want to be the guy who spent the last ten years with a sword in hand ten hours a day, not the casual fencer.
But these are games, and people are free to play them however they want.
Join the guild that suits your needs. Don't expect others to conform their playstyle to yours, and don't cry when you run into a guild whose members tastes differ from yours.
Owyn
Commander, Defenders of Order
http://www.defendersoforder.com
Currently Playing: Metal Gear Online, Call of Duty 4, Grand Theft Auto 4, Oblivion. (Taking a break from MMO's)
If you plan to join a guild with completely different goals and a completely different approach to the game, it is obvious that you (and them) will not get the same rewarding experience out of it. And this holds true for any group is running a quest, it doesn't necessarily have to be a raid activity.
As far as I'm concerned, I don't mind people that are not yet proficient with their character (but at least try to learn how to), are undergeared, don't know their way around the world, make mistakes (sometimes fatal), etc. I do mind when they disregard any prior experience other members of the team have and ignore advice, run off to do their own thing, go afk for prolonged periods without prior warning (leaving the rest of the team waiting for them, I do have limited play time and I do intend to make the most out of it). Then again, my fellow guild-mates call me weird for running quests and instances with people I hardly know and are usually very fresh into the game.
Bottom line, all types of players can co-exist in the same game, just not in the same guild(s). And I would like the companies to try and cater to both groups if possible. I know it's hard, but it does broaden the horizons of the things we can do in a game. Alot of my friends that left my (goal progressing) guild, returned into the casual game. Others left their past guilds and join mine, because they wanted a more "serious" approach to the game. Life is ever-changing and the circumstances can change a casual to hardcore and vice versa. I don't want to lose the friends I made out there because the game becomes meaningless once the play-style changes.