So, anyone who disagrees with your opinions is insane? Your idea of fun is not mine and there are plenty of people who do agree with me, hence the constant posts about casual game play. You seem to think that just because there aren't 10,000 posts on a subject, that it somehow invalidates the argument? The same could be said for your delusional comments as well. We aren't asking for dumbed down games. A game can easily be casual and challenging at the same time, for you to say otherwise is truly delusional. We aren't asking them to stop making hardcore games. Its just insulting that every game out there currently has too much hardcore content. For once, we'd like to see a MMO cater to us from beginning to end, you can have all of the others and more power to you. You and others like you are so narrow minded that you can't even fathom any game being other than the way you feel it should be.
As far as your deluded idea of a business model, you cannot actually believe that any company in its right mind would be happy with the turnover rates that are fairly common to MMO's. Loss of revenue is something most businesses try to avoid at all costs. Customer retention is critical to profit margins and the larger the margin the better. Gaming companies are striving all the time to find ways to not only draw in customers, but to keep them for as long as possible. For you to believe that developers are willing to stick it to casuals as a matter of principle is beyond arrogance. They're here to do a job and make money, lots of it. Losing customers due to critical flaws in game design is not likely to sit well with them, especially if the turnover rate is in the millions.
Obviously Blizzard is worried about this very issue, otherwise why the sudden change in the expansion to include more casual content? If things are so fine and dandly with the old raiding paradigm, then why change the formula at all? It seems to me the facts speak for themselves. Hardcores ARE a niche market, that cannot be refuted, even by you. If gaming companies want to make some real money, then they're going to have to change the way they do business. Considering how greedy companies tend to be, you can bet your bottom dollar it will happen eventually. There's room for both types of games on the market. I fail to see why you hardcores feel so threatened by us requesting a MMO be put out that caters specifically to our wants.
By the way, this kind of discourse on bulletin boards is exactly how to be heard by these developing companies. They visit and read these boards just like any other computer enthusiast does. I mean for goodness sake, every game out there has its own board or sponsored board. There have been plenty of occassion even on this site of developers visiting and making comments on various posts. I find it strange that you seem to think we are wasting our time trying to get our point across, when its obvious that developers do take notes and have done so in the past.
With PvE raiding, it has never been a question of being "good enough". I play games to have fun, not to be a simpering toady sitting through hour after hour of mind numbing boredom and fawning over a guild master in the hopes that he will condescend to reward me with shiny bits of loot. But in games where those people get the highest progression, anyone who doesn't do that will just be a moving target for them and I'll be damned if I'm going to pay money for the privilege. - Neanderthal
Jon says hardcore, structured guilds can be elitist and look down at more casual players, however he's doing the same thing by mocking them for the work ethic, decrying that its not fun to attend meetings, raids etc.
why is the term "work ethic" being used to talk about a game?
7 out of 7 for you.
could we please get correspondent writers and moderators, on the eve forum at mmorpg.com, who are well-versed on eve-online and aren't just passersby pushing buttons? pretty please?
Jon says hardcore, structured guilds can be elitist and look down at more casual players, however he's doing the same thing by mocking them for the work ethic, decrying that its not fun to attend meetings, raids etc.
why is the term "work ethic" being used to talk about a game?
7 out of 7 for you.
LOL, because some people actually "work" at playing them... and enjoy doing so....
Some players spend hours looking up the locations for the best drops, can provide you very detailed mathmatics on the effect of crit gear versus damage gear, or how to best spec a protection tank for Naxx. Some will run though the same instance 60 times just to complete their set.... and its work just to try and stick with it.
"Work" doesnt mean income generating activity which you make you living one... it actually means any activity that you put effort into so that you achieve some sort of benefit back.... gaming can take work to achieve some goals...
Just trying to live long enough to play a new, released MMORPG, playing New Worlds atm
Fools find no pleasure in understanding but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV
Don't just play games, inhabit virtual worlds™
"This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon
"So, anyone who disagrees with your opinions is insane?"
Anyone who blatantly ignore everything I said and just loves hearing themselves type so much taht they make a fool out of themselves is insane, yes.
Your idea of fun is not mine and there are plenty of people who do agree with me, hence the constant posts about casual game play.
I hate raiding. You hate raiding. I only play for an hour and a half to two hours a nights and maybe 3 or 4 hours when I get a chance which is rare. Im going to assume you do the same. Ive REPEATEDLY stated that I hate raiding. Im not a hardcore player at all. For some reason, you have ignore me saying this over and over again.
You seem to think that just because there aren't 10,000 posts on a subject, that it somehow invalidates the argument? The same could be said for your delusional comments as well. We aren't asking for dumbed down games. A game can easily be casual and challenging at the same time, for you to say otherwise is truly delusional.
Casual means you can log in for a small amount of time and still get something done. The majority of MMOs let you do this. So what is your problem? I have played a ton of MMOs and I have always been perfectly fine playing the few hours I do. The only roadblock I ever hit is raiding... so I dont play games with raiding. It's very, VERY simple.
We aren't asking them to stop making hardcore games. Its just insulting that every game out there currently has too much hardcore content. For once, we'd like to see a MMO cater to us from beginning to end, you can have all of the others and more power to you. You and others like you are so narrow minded that you can't even fathom any game being other than the way you feel it should be.
Every game out there? Most of the MMOs out there are easily played casually. Again, Im not a hardcore player by any stretch of the imagination.
As far as your deluded idea of a business model, you cannot actually believe that any company in its right mind would be happy with the turnover rates that are fairly common to MMO's. Loss of revenue is something most businesses try to avoid at all costs. Customer retention is critical to profit margins and the larger the margin the better. Gaming companies are striving all the time to find ways to not only draw in customers, but to keep them for as long as possible. For you to believe that developers are willing to stick it to casuals as a matter of principle is beyond arrogance. They're here to do a job and make money, lots of it. Losing customers due to critical flaws in game design is not likely to sit well with them, especially if the turnover rate is in the millions.
Everquest is one of the longest running MMOs in history. It's a great game and it's players love it. If you think a 25% retention rate over the course of that many years is bad... then you are just insane. Period. I personally dont like it, but that has nothing to do with it's quality, it's just not my type of game these days. This is mostly because of raiding.
If you regularly play 1 in 4 games that you have bought over the last SEVEN YEARS, then you deserve some kind of god damn award.
Obviously Blizzard is worried about this very issue, otherwise why the sudden change in the expansion to include more casual content? If things are so fine and dandly with the old raiding paradigm, then why change the formula at all?
HAHAHA! I played the Burning Crusade Beta and you have a serious wake up call waiting for you. I played all the way to level 70 and it's just as raidtastic, if not even MORE raidtastic than WoW originally was. Wake up. Unless your definition of "casual content" is insane rep grinds and raiding, you are in for a biiiiiiiiiiiig surprise.
It seems to me the facts speak for themselves. Hardcores ARE a niche market, that cannot be refuted, even by you. If gaming companies want to make some real money, then they're going to have to change the way they do business.
But they... ARE making real money. Do you think the 14 million people playing Lineage 2 are paying with cookie dough? That's the most insanely hardcore game on the market. It's a nonstop grindfest and it makes the number of WoW players look like a joke.
Considering how greedy companies tend to be, you can bet your bottom dollar it will happen eventually. There's room for both types of games on the market. I fail to see why you hardcores feel so threatened by us requesting a MMO be put out that caters specifically to our wants.
Because your "wants" are not the normal casual wants. Your "wants" are for a game to give YOU the same thing as it gives hardcore players and that's just unreasonable. You get as much out of the game as you put in and you arent putting as much in. You want to ruin their fun at the expense of your fun. What you are failing to realize is that most of the games on the market are PERFECTLY casual friendly.
Ill be playing Vanguard casually as soon as it comes out and later this year Ill be playing Warhammer casually. I played WoW casually since release until very recently. The endgame of WoW was all raiding and still is... so I didnt play the WoW endgame. Revolutionary concept, coming through.
By the way, this kind of discourse on bulletin boards is exactly how to be heard by these developing companies. They visit and read these boards just like any other computer enthusiast does. I mean for goodness sake, every game out there has its own board or sponsored board. There have been plenty of occassion even on this site of developers visiting and making comments on various posts. I find it strange that you seem to think we are wasting our time trying to get our point across, when its obvious that developers do take notes and have done so in the past.
Developers dont care because your aguments have been made since UO and the genre has continued to grow a massive worldwide customerbase since then at an unstoppable rate despite everyone ignoring you.
So mister know it all, you know for a fact that everyone but you is ignoring my posts. You also know for a fact that since MMO's are such a resounding success, they will continue with the status quo, this belief is in defiance of the fact that MMO's have been evolving slowly, but surely since their inception. I love how you state opinions as facts. Unless you work for Blizzard or any other MMO company, I will take everything you state as fact with several grains of salt. Neither will I discontinue my interest in any discourse where I might have my opinions heard, whether you think they're ignored or not.
As to the casual friendly games out there, could you please elucidate on that? If that were the case, why was WoW the first to bring in so many casual players while other games like AC, EQ, DAoC, SWG, Horizons, AO, EQ2, Eve, CoH are primarily considered hardcore games? All of them are extremely time consuming and all but CoH are quite raid focused. That you consider any of them to be perfectly casual friendly leads me to believe you are not a casual player at all.
You only seem interested in tearing apart posts and replacing them with your own opinions. It is evident that you have no desire to actually discuss the issue, but rather to insult and denegrate anyone of differing opinion. By your very statements, its obvious you think there is no room for a raidless game on the market, that its mere existence would somehow insult your intelligence. You call yourself a casual player and yet you infer that I want to dumb down a game by requesting it to be raid free. Either way, I'm done. You aren't worth arguing with and since no one else seems to be joining in the discussion, there is no point in continuing. I can only hope that developing companies will continue to evolve and eventually put other types of MMOs out on the market that are more casual friendly and completely raidless.
With PvE raiding, it has never been a question of being "good enough". I play games to have fun, not to be a simpering toady sitting through hour after hour of mind numbing boredom and fawning over a guild master in the hopes that he will condescend to reward me with shiny bits of loot. But in games where those people get the highest progression, anyone who doesn't do that will just be a moving target for them and I'll be damned if I'm going to pay money for the privilege. - Neanderthal
Hear! Hear! Vrazule. I don't like raids either. I don't want them elimated just because of that, but at least don't concentrate all the endgame on that. Or even make it so that's the only way to get good items.
The following games I have personally played casually with no problem:
Asheron's Call
Star Wars Galaxies
Everquest II
Dark Age of Camelot
Eve
Warcraft (until the endgame)
Everquest (until the endgame)
And plenty more. None of those games require you to invest more than a couple of hours at a time. Of course, I didnt go in expecting to achieve the same things as someone who plays 5 hours a day and has an organized guild. Only a jackass would do that. It's the same reason I dont expect me and my friends to be able to beat the Yankees.
There's games where you can get some things done in a couple of hours and there's games where you cant. The content itself is the same, it's just that people who play more are going to go through it faster and they will have time for raids. Anything that ISNT raids is casual.
You stil have never defined what you consider casual aside from the absurdity of scaled dungeons.
The team analogy was probably the best for making me consider the other side of the story.
I am a casual I suppose. It does seem weird to me that 10 hours a week at something makes me casual. I do about 8 hours a week of swing dancing and am considered Intermediate/Advanced. I also play tennis 10 hours a week when I skip WOW or work and I am definitely advanced.
I couldn't do any of those things when I was married, just didn't have time. Should have married an introvert I suppose.
For the guy who said he had three kids... I worked with kids for years, and I can say that any parent playing more than 12 hours a week who isn't playing with their kids is communicating a very clear and deeply wounding message to those kids about their value. The myth of quality time won't help them, they need quantity time - you know, the kind a guild requires of you. Strange that having children should require so much. Maybe there should be an application.
It all started with a lantern, a sword, and a trap door...
And please don't complain that you won't get to see the high end content. You can't excel in anything without putting the time and energy into it. Would you really want to visit this high end content if it was so easy to get to that a jury-rigged, slapped-together bunch of strangers could waltz in? No, you want to go there because its tough to get there. Welcome to real life, take a number and wait your turn.
I don't ever post from work but this just left me gobsmacked.
I want to see the all the areas of the game because I PAY for it. ALL of it. I don't give a dingo's kidney how 'tough' you think it should be to get there, WoW is not a test of 'excelling' , it's an entertainment product. Just scale the bloody instances like they do in COH and allow people to access all portions of the game they're subscribing to. Do I need a group to see the end of a movie? Black Bloody Hell.
Perhaps I should ask for a discount for the percentage of game that is closed to me. OR maybe raiders should be paying extra for all the game content that only they can enjoy, and that has been designed specifically for them. I'd be curious to see what the percentage of the playerbase actually gets to go to these areas. Because they certainly get a lot of attention from the team.
Oh, and WoW is not 'Real Life'. Go outside.
mab
Old and Cranky
Ok, since this was posted many others have made my case (and beat it to death as well). The concept that entertainment doesn't involve some sort of emotional, intellectual, or physical involvement is faulty. Any entertainment, even the cheapest, takes time, which is actually the most valuable thing in the world. Even sitting and watching a movie takes time and at least a modicum of emotional and intellectual involvement to enjoy the movie. I consider my 40k hobby to be entertainment and it takes a significant amount of work in modelling and painting that would turn off alot of people. I know my friend enjoys his kung fu classes and it takes alot of time, money and work to improve. Neither my 40k or his kung fu should be just given to him because we shell out money for it.
Even non-mmos require a certain amount of work to access all the content. I had to spend time and effort (and some parts of it sucked) back in the day when Half-life was out to beat the game. I had to acquire the skills to beat they game. They weren't just granted to me when I bought the license. Don't think I would have enjoyed the game nearly as much if I could have waltzed through it. Scaling difficulty is part and parcel of all games and the satisfaction of overcoming the challenges is what makes beating the boss or succeeding in a raid worth it.
I quit playing EQ quite a while ago. I didn't get to do everything and see everything (honestly, if I could have, that would have just sucked the massive right out of the game, I like a game that has more content than I can possibly ever see or do). I didn't get to raid Sol Ro or visit the Plane of Time (yeah, dating myself, I know), but I don't let it get my boxers all in a knot. I knew it was going to be the case when I started playing the game and just accepted it. I still feel I got more than my money's worth from my EQ and SWG (now EVE) experience. 12.00-20.00 per month for unlimited access is a steal for a good time, no matter how much or little time you spend on it. I might agree somewhat on instances that are level scalable, but (for example) beating up on a dumbed down and neutered Lord Nagafen is NOT the same as taking on the full version and you should get neither the exp or the loot of the full. If that was the case, honestly, I'd have had no interest in killing him until he I could take on the full. If I never reached that point then oh well. This is the way these games are. There are rpgs out there that take much less time investment and aren't mmos but still alot of fun to play (NWN and NWN2 come to mind)
And as far as my real life comment, what I meant was that you have to work for things in life, job, home, family, health, it all takes work and you won't always enjoy it. I've never played (and won't ever) WoW. I'm a rare species of Blizzard anti-fanboi (not getting into it here). The point is...anything worth the end takes work to get there.
And to comment on the poster who was complaining that raids took so long. Gosh, that used to drive me up the freaking wall. Raid would be scheduled for a particular time and we wouldn't even leave the gathering point for at least an hour after that...every time... What needed to be done was make that time a hard and fast time. If you couldn't be on or couldn't be at the gathering point by the appointed time then you need to be left behind. If we can't get enough tanks or healers or whatever then postpone the raid and make it fully known who we needed or who was late and screwed the raid. People taking their sweet time and spending MY time by being late are some of the reasons I'm glad I don't do that crap anymore. Blowing an hour (of sleep usually) sitting around cause I got there on time and half the guild didn't is damn annoying...
Well said Thamoris!! That's what it's all about. I read some of these posts from these children that want to trash someone that doesn't think as they do, and I shake my head. After all the main objective is to just plain have fun. Everyone has a different perspective of how to accomplish that, but there's certainly no reason to spew hate at someone you don't agree with.
The point is...anything worth the end takes work to get there.
Thanks for such an articulate and thoughtful reply Jelanen, especially taking into account how cranky my original comment was.
But I think I've miscommunicated. I gave the example of not needing a group to watch the end of a DVD. I don't object to the amount of emotional and etc 'work' I have to do to get to the end of the movie, but I do object to not being able to get see the end at all, without the aid of 39 close personal friends/strangers. I don't mind the effort of hours of play at Monopoly, but I shouldn't need 39 people sitting next to me to enable me to buy a Hotel. I'm having a good time with my friends - do we need to haul in all these strangers?
I've though of an analogy:
I go to an Amusement Park. I buy a full price admission pass to go in and use the facilities.
I enjoy the initial area, and wish to go to a new one.
I’m told I have to play a game of ‘Whack 15 Moles” to access the new area.
I enjoy my mole whacking and enter.
I have to whack more moles and deliver a package to get into subsequent areas.
I gleefully whack and deliver, admiring the care put into each of the areas. I win little prizes.
And so on and so on for 60 more areas. I have immense fun in all of them.
BUT
At last I come to an area says I need 39 other people to accompany me, all at the same time, or no entry.
It doesn't matter how many hours I've spent in the park, nor how many moles I've whacked, or what I've learned, or how hard I've worked - all my experience is irrelevant. It's large groups only.
I look at my pass – I’ve paid for access to ALL the areas in the park. There is nothing stated about requiring a group of dozens of strangers in order to enter certain areas, and this has never happened before. ???
The park goes on and on, but I stop here.
I wouldn’t mind so much, but I’ve paid the same full price admission as the group on a bus tour that’s entering all together, and they get to play and whack things in the special restricted areas made just for them.
I ask management if there’s an equivalent area for me, and the many other unaccompanied people around.
They say not at present because they’re putting most of their effort into making the special group areas.
Somewhat disgruntled I return to the park areas I can access, and continue to enjoy myself there, but I don’t stop complaining about the inequity of the park design. Because sometimes The Management listens.
p.s.
Scaleable instances also = scaleable loot. I shouldn’t get OMGLE3TPURPLZ drops on a 'FunRun', nor do I expect to (I would consider that exploiting). Possibly epic balloon drops. Or ice cream for everyone. Whatever. But I want to somehow be able to go in and explore and play in that part of the sandbox, because it’s my sandbox too.
Ok somehow this thread went from guild management and restriction, to raiding, end game content, and casual vs hardcore.(As Always) I will attempt to stay on topic and put in my opinion on guilds.
Disclaimer: The views expressed in this post are property of Doc Octane. You are allowed to have your own.
Guild Management: (the Orginal intent)
If you don't want to be part of an organized/restricted guild then don't. It's that simple. There are no grounds in which to brow beat those who choose to do that. I can understand why someone would want to play casual and not "apply." However whats the point of complaining about others who do? This article is just a jab to stir the pot, which it has done. I personally don't like going through a website or some fashion of online application process either. I do, if I join a guild, want to be a part of an organized group. I can fully understand why guilds do such things. I was a guild leader and it's tough. I suggest anyone claiming to be a casual gamer, just looking to have a good time, start a guild and run it. I'm not saying it wasn't "fun". I enjoyed being a guild leader. You have to consider these guild leaders and what they are providing for your entertainment. A lot of guilds only ask that you act mature, donate a few credits, and help out in group activities. In return they manage resources to make sure the guild members are provided with weapons, munitions, player housing, cities, outpost, scheduled events, and all grades of in game luxeries that players often take for granted. I ran a very successful guild (I will spare naming the mmo) and our members were hand picked, eIther by myself or other founding members. Not because we wanted "elite" players. On the contrary we had lots of "casual" players. I just never saw the point in "zerg" guilds with 300 people you don't even know. Spamming in player hubs just to get big numbers and such makes no sense to me. If a guild is well organized and becomes "elite" on a server and has a reputation, have you ever thought that they deserve it. Why be jealous and blame it on hardcore vs. casual game play. Nothing obtained by one guild is unattainable by any other. The fact that some guild stands out above others and happens to be a restricted, organized, apply only organization, is a testiment to the method. Just like you can have a bad pick-up group you can have a bad guild.
Stating that these guilds are no fun to be in is assinine. Organized guilds are super fun to be in and operate. If you don't like that type of guild then just start your own dis-organized play and say however guild. I won't join it and we'll both be happy.
Casual Versus Hardcore:(The Other Topic) This arguement is old. I'm tired of the debate. I'm also tired of the stereotype. "Time in Game" does not dictate whether I am a hardcore gamer or casual. If you believe otherwise you have a lot of proving your point to do. I have a full time job M-F 8 to 5. I have a side business I operate after 5 when I get home. I have a girlfriend. I have dogs. I like to bowl. I like to play music. I have tons of things in my life that take up *time*. These days I don't have much time to spend in game but I think I'm a hardcore gamer. When I'm in game I push myself to accomplish as much as a can. I have fun doing it. If I spent 12 hours a day in game chatting and using emotes versus 2 hours a day in game gearing up and knocking out mission content which is more hardcore? To be honest I'm both hardcore and casual. Sometimes I feel like being strictly business and sometimes I'd just assume spend my time Role Playing. What's the point of arguing over it? Why be upset over accomplished players and claim "Oh this game is casual gamer unfriendly."Bull$hit.ALL CONTENT IN EVERY GAME IS ACCESSIBLE BY EVERYONE WHO PLAYS IT. It is up to you to get it. Period. If someone is using the rule set and guidelines in game to accomplish themselves you have the same means as they do. The arguement of "Well I pay 15 dollars a month to I should get the super uber fire sword with the DOT". Why? DId you do the quest for it? Did you earn the credits to buy it? If so, yes you are entitled to it. If not why be jealous? A lot of games I suck at. That's just life. I'm not the best PvP'er in the gaming world. Some levels, or missions I just can't figure out. I'm not gonna let myself be envious of someone who did. You know the smart thing would be to ask more accomplished players to .....help you out? I imagine that would get you alot further in game then complaining that content is out of your means.....You know to get back to the original topic. Perhaps if you joined an organized guild the lines of casual versus hardcore would blur....
PS: I'm 30 years old. I hate cheating in games and never use any type of cheat code even for single player games. I do not support griefing, exploiting, and I choose to play with mature gamers. I don't support in game smack talk harrassment and if I'm not having fun in a game I hit cancel.
I'd like to say that this is one of the best and most important articles I have read on the subject.
I for one think that private gaming clubs detract from the games far more than they enhance the games. They are a relic from UO that developers just refuse to part with, even though the presence of a strong guild system causes problems that are beyond the ability of the developers to correct.
In fact, I'd have to say that if there was one "feature" that causes more trouble in the games from a play and development stadpoint, it would be the centrality of the private gaming club, or guild, as a means of organizing players. For some reason, guilds have been able to convince developers and players alike that guilds are fundamental to enjoying an MMO, but to be quite honest, we could just as easily do away with them, and the games would still be just as accessable and fun. Possibly even more fun, and more accessable.
I've been in this genre a long time, and it has yet to be proven to me that private gaming clubs:
--Provide a greater social atmosphere.
--Make games more accessable.
--Keep players in games.
--Make games more friendly.
--Enhances roleplay.
--Increases subscriber revenue.
--Expand player content.
--Provide greater help to n00bs.
--Prevent hacks, exploits, and cheating.
--Prevent grief.
These are the sorts of reasons developers and guild bosses keep on justifying guilds, but I'd have to say that the necessity of private gaming clubs for players and for games is more an assertion, rather than a fact.
I don't think the genre can grow in any meaningful way unless we get rid of the concept of players organizing themselves through privately organized clubs. There are far better ways of organizing players, without all the interpersonal drama, hazing, and trash that is bound to occur in a guild system.
__________________________ "Its sad when people use religion to feel superior, its even worse to see people using a video game to do it." --Arcken
"...when it comes to pimping EVE I have little restraints." --Hellmar, CEO of CCP.
"It's like they took a gun, put it to their nugget sack and pulled the trigger over and over again, each time telling us how great it was that they were shooting themselves in the balls." --Exar_Kun on SWG's NGE
Comments
So, anyone who disagrees with your opinions is insane? Your idea of fun is not mine and there are plenty of people who do agree with me, hence the constant posts about casual game play. You seem to think that just because there aren't 10,000 posts on a subject, that it somehow invalidates the argument? The same could be said for your delusional comments as well. We aren't asking for dumbed down games. A game can easily be casual and challenging at the same time, for you to say otherwise is truly delusional. We aren't asking them to stop making hardcore games. Its just insulting that every game out there currently has too much hardcore content. For once, we'd like to see a MMO cater to us from beginning to end, you can have all of the others and more power to you. You and others like you are so narrow minded that you can't even fathom any game being other than the way you feel it should be.
As far as your deluded idea of a business model, you cannot actually believe that any company in its right mind would be happy with the turnover rates that are fairly common to MMO's. Loss of revenue is something most businesses try to avoid at all costs. Customer retention is critical to profit margins and the larger the margin the better. Gaming companies are striving all the time to find ways to not only draw in customers, but to keep them for as long as possible. For you to believe that developers are willing to stick it to casuals as a matter of principle is beyond arrogance. They're here to do a job and make money, lots of it. Losing customers due to critical flaws in game design is not likely to sit well with them, especially if the turnover rate is in the millions.
Obviously Blizzard is worried about this very issue, otherwise why the sudden change in the expansion to include more casual content? If things are so fine and dandly with the old raiding paradigm, then why change the formula at all? It seems to me the facts speak for themselves. Hardcores ARE a niche market, that cannot be refuted, even by you. If gaming companies want to make some real money, then they're going to have to change the way they do business. Considering how greedy companies tend to be, you can bet your bottom dollar it will happen eventually. There's room for both types of games on the market. I fail to see why you hardcores feel so threatened by us requesting a MMO be put out that caters specifically to our wants.
By the way, this kind of discourse on bulletin boards is exactly how to be heard by these developing companies. They visit and read these boards just like any other computer enthusiast does. I mean for goodness sake, every game out there has its own board or sponsored board. There have been plenty of occassion even on this site of developers visiting and making comments on various posts. I find it strange that you seem to think we are wasting our time trying to get our point across, when its obvious that developers do take notes and have done so in the past.
With PvE raiding, it has never been a question of being "good enough". I play games to have fun, not to be a simpering toady sitting through hour after hour of mind numbing boredom and fawning over a guild master in the hopes that he will condescend to reward me with shiny bits of loot. But in games where those people get the highest progression, anyone who doesn't do that will just be a moving target for them and I'll be damned if I'm going to pay money for the privilege. - Neanderthal
why is the term "work ethic" being used to talk about a game?
could we please get correspondent writers and moderators, on the eve forum at mmorpg.com, who are well-versed on eve-online and aren't just passersby pushing buttons? pretty please?
why is the term "work ethic" being used to talk about a game?
7 out of 7 for you.
LOL, because some people actually "work" at playing them... and enjoy doing so....Some players spend hours looking up the locations for the best drops, can provide you very detailed mathmatics on the effect of crit gear versus damage gear, or how to best spec a protection tank for Naxx. Some will run though the same instance 60 times just to complete their set.... and its work just to try and stick with it.
"Work" doesnt mean income generating activity which you make you living one... it actually means any activity that you put effort into so that you achieve some sort of benefit back.... gaming can take work to achieve some goals...
"True friends stab you in the front." | Oscar Wilde
"I need to finish" - Christian Wolff: The Accountant
Just trying to live long enough to play a new, released MMORPG, playing New Worlds atm
Fools find no pleasure in understanding but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV
Don't just play games, inhabit virtual worlds™
"This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon
Anyone who blatantly ignore everything I said and just loves hearing themselves type so much taht they make a fool out of themselves is insane, yes.
Your idea of fun is not mine and there are plenty of people who do agree with me, hence the constant posts about casual game play.
I hate raiding. You hate raiding. I only play for an hour and a half to two hours a nights and maybe 3 or 4 hours when I get a chance which is rare. Im going to assume you do the same. Ive REPEATEDLY stated that I hate raiding. Im not a hardcore player at all. For some reason, you have ignore me saying this over and over again.
You seem to think that just because there aren't 10,000 posts on a subject, that it somehow invalidates the argument? The same could be said for your delusional comments as well. We aren't asking for dumbed down games. A game can easily be casual and challenging at the same time, for you to say otherwise is truly delusional.
Casual means you can log in for a small amount of time and still get something done. The majority of MMOs let you do this. So what is your problem? I have played a ton of MMOs and I have always been perfectly fine playing the few hours I do. The only roadblock I ever hit is raiding... so I dont play games with raiding. It's very, VERY simple.
We aren't asking them to stop making hardcore games. Its just insulting that every game out there currently has too much hardcore content. For once, we'd like to see a MMO cater to us from beginning to end, you can have all of the others and more power to you. You and others like you are so narrow minded that you can't even fathom any game being other than the way you feel it should be.
Every game out there? Most of the MMOs out there are easily played casually. Again, Im not a hardcore player by any stretch of the imagination.
As far as your deluded idea of a business model, you cannot actually believe that any company in its right mind would be happy with the turnover rates that are fairly common to MMO's. Loss of revenue is something most businesses try to avoid at all costs. Customer retention is critical to profit margins and the larger the margin the better. Gaming companies are striving all the time to find ways to not only draw in customers, but to keep them for as long as possible. For you to believe that developers are willing to stick it to casuals as a matter of principle is beyond arrogance. They're here to do a job and make money, lots of it. Losing customers due to critical flaws in game design is not likely to sit well with them, especially if the turnover rate is in the millions.
Everquest is one of the longest running MMOs in history. It's a great game and it's players love it. If you think a 25% retention rate over the course of that many years is bad... then you are just insane. Period. I personally dont like it, but that has nothing to do with it's quality, it's just not my type of game these days. This is mostly because of raiding.
If you regularly play 1 in 4 games that you have bought over the last SEVEN YEARS, then you deserve some kind of god damn award.
Obviously Blizzard is worried about this very issue, otherwise why the sudden change in the expansion to include more casual content? If things are so fine and dandly with the old raiding paradigm, then why change the formula at all?
HAHAHA! I played the Burning Crusade Beta and you have a serious wake up call waiting for you. I played all the way to level 70 and it's just as raidtastic, if not even MORE raidtastic than WoW originally was. Wake up. Unless your definition of "casual content" is insane rep grinds and raiding, you are in for a biiiiiiiiiiiig surprise.
It seems to me the facts speak for themselves. Hardcores ARE a niche market, that cannot be refuted, even by you. If gaming companies want to make some real money, then they're going to have to change the way they do business.
But they... ARE making real money. Do you think the 14 million people playing Lineage 2 are paying with cookie dough? That's the most insanely hardcore game on the market. It's a nonstop grindfest and it makes the number of WoW players look like a joke.
Considering how greedy companies tend to be, you can bet your bottom dollar it will happen eventually. There's room for both types of games on the market. I fail to see why you hardcores feel so threatened by us requesting a MMO be put out that caters specifically to our wants.
Because your "wants" are not the normal casual wants. Your "wants" are for a game to give YOU the same thing as it gives hardcore players and that's just unreasonable. You get as much out of the game as you put in and you arent putting as much in. You want to ruin their fun at the expense of your fun. What you are failing to realize is that most of the games on the market are PERFECTLY casual friendly.
Ill be playing Vanguard casually as soon as it comes out and later this year Ill be playing Warhammer casually. I played WoW casually since release until very recently. The endgame of WoW was all raiding and still is... so I didnt play the WoW endgame. Revolutionary concept, coming through.
By the way, this kind of discourse on bulletin boards is exactly how to be heard by these developing companies. They visit and read these boards just like any other computer enthusiast does. I mean for goodness sake, every game out there has its own board or sponsored board. There have been plenty of occassion even on this site of developers visiting and making comments on various posts. I find it strange that you seem to think we are wasting our time trying to get our point across, when its obvious that developers do take notes and have done so in the past.
Developers dont care because your aguments have been made since UO and the genre has continued to grow a massive worldwide customerbase since then at an unstoppable rate despite everyone ignoring you.
So mister know it all, you know for a fact that everyone but you is ignoring my posts. You also know for a fact that since MMO's are such a resounding success, they will continue with the status quo, this belief is in defiance of the fact that MMO's have been evolving slowly, but surely since their inception. I love how you state opinions as facts. Unless you work for Blizzard or any other MMO company, I will take everything you state as fact with several grains of salt. Neither will I discontinue my interest in any discourse where I might have my opinions heard, whether you think they're ignored or not.
As to the casual friendly games out there, could you please elucidate on that? If that were the case, why was WoW the first to bring in so many casual players while other games like AC, EQ, DAoC, SWG, Horizons, AO, EQ2, Eve, CoH are primarily considered hardcore games? All of them are extremely time consuming and all but CoH are quite raid focused. That you consider any of them to be perfectly casual friendly leads me to believe you are not a casual player at all.
You only seem interested in tearing apart posts and replacing them with your own opinions. It is evident that you have no desire to actually discuss the issue, but rather to insult and denegrate anyone of differing opinion. By your very statements, its obvious you think there is no room for a raidless game on the market, that its mere existence would somehow insult your intelligence. You call yourself a casual player and yet you infer that I want to dumb down a game by requesting it to be raid free. Either way, I'm done. You aren't worth arguing with and since no one else seems to be joining in the discussion, there is no point in continuing. I can only hope that developing companies will continue to evolve and eventually put other types of MMOs out on the market that are more casual friendly and completely raidless.
With PvE raiding, it has never been a question of being "good enough". I play games to have fun, not to be a simpering toady sitting through hour after hour of mind numbing boredom and fawning over a guild master in the hopes that he will condescend to reward me with shiny bits of loot. But in games where those people get the highest progression, anyone who doesn't do that will just be a moving target for them and I'll be damned if I'm going to pay money for the privilege. - Neanderthal
Asheron's Call
Star Wars Galaxies
Everquest II
Dark Age of Camelot
Eve
Warcraft (until the endgame)
Everquest (until the endgame)
And plenty more. None of those games require you to invest more than a couple of hours at a time. Of course, I didnt go in expecting to achieve the same things as someone who plays 5 hours a day and has an organized guild. Only a jackass would do that. It's the same reason I dont expect me and my friends to be able to beat the Yankees.
There's games where you can get some things done in a couple of hours and there's games where you cant. The content itself is the same, it's just that people who play more are going to go through it faster and they will have time for raids. Anything that ISNT raids is casual.
You stil have never defined what you consider casual aside from the absurdity of scaled dungeons.
The team analogy was probably the best for making me consider the other side of the story.
I am a casual I suppose. It does seem weird to me that 10 hours a week at something makes me casual. I do about 8 hours a week of swing dancing and am considered Intermediate/Advanced. I also play tennis 10 hours a week when I skip WOW or work and I am definitely advanced.
I couldn't do any of those things when I was married, just didn't have time. Should have married an introvert I suppose.
For the guy who said he had three kids... I worked with kids for years, and I can say that any parent playing more than 12 hours a week who isn't playing with their kids is communicating a very clear and deeply wounding message to those kids about their value. The myth of quality time won't help them, they need quantity time - you know, the kind a guild requires of you. Strange that having children should require so much. Maybe there should be an application.
It all started with a lantern, a sword, and a trap door...
I don't ever post from work but this just left me gobsmacked.
I want to see the all the areas of the game because I PAY for it. ALL of it. I don't give a dingo's kidney how 'tough' you think it should be to get there, WoW is not a test of 'excelling' , it's an entertainment product. Just scale the bloody instances like they do in COH and allow people to access all portions of the game they're subscribing to. Do I need a group to see the end of a movie? Black Bloody Hell.
Perhaps I should ask for a discount for the percentage of game that is closed to me. OR maybe raiders should be paying extra for all the game content that only they can enjoy, and that has been designed specifically for them. I'd be curious to see what the percentage of the playerbase actually gets to go to these areas. Because they certainly get a lot of attention from the team.
Oh, and WoW is not 'Real Life'. Go outside.
mab
Ok, since this was posted many others have made my case (and beat it to death as well). The concept that entertainment doesn't involve some sort of emotional, intellectual, or physical involvement is faulty. Any entertainment, even the cheapest, takes time, which is actually the most valuable thing in the world. Even sitting and watching a movie takes time and at least a modicum of emotional and intellectual involvement to enjoy the movie. I consider my 40k hobby to be entertainment and it takes a significant amount of work in modelling and painting that would turn off alot of people. I know my friend enjoys his kung fu classes and it takes alot of time, money and work to improve. Neither my 40k or his kung fu should be just given to him because we shell out money for it.Old and Cranky
Even non-mmos require a certain amount of work to access all the content. I had to spend time and effort (and some parts of it sucked) back in the day when Half-life was out to beat the game. I had to acquire the skills to beat they game. They weren't just granted to me when I bought the license. Don't think I would have enjoyed the game nearly as much if I could have waltzed through it. Scaling difficulty is part and parcel of all games and the satisfaction of overcoming the challenges is what makes beating the boss or succeeding in a raid worth it.
I quit playing EQ quite a while ago. I didn't get to do everything and see everything (honestly, if I could have, that would have just sucked the massive right out of the game, I like a game that has more content than I can possibly ever see or do). I didn't get to raid Sol Ro or visit the Plane of Time (yeah, dating myself, I know), but I don't let it get my boxers all in a knot. I knew it was going to be the case when I started playing the game and just accepted it. I still feel I got more than my money's worth from my EQ and SWG (now EVE) experience. 12.00-20.00 per month for unlimited access is a steal for a good time, no matter how much or little time you spend on it. I might agree somewhat on instances that are level scalable, but (for example) beating up on a dumbed down and neutered Lord Nagafen is NOT the same as taking on the full version and you should get neither the exp or the loot of the full. If that was the case, honestly, I'd have had no interest in killing him until he I could take on the full. If I never reached that point then oh well. This is the way these games are. There are rpgs out there that take much less time investment and aren't mmos but still alot of fun to play (NWN and NWN2 come to mind)
And as far as my real life comment, what I meant was that you have to work for things in life, job, home, family, health, it all takes work and you won't always enjoy it. I've never played (and won't ever) WoW. I'm a rare species of Blizzard anti-fanboi (not getting into it here). The point is...anything worth the end takes work to get there.
And to comment on the poster who was complaining that raids took so long. Gosh, that used to drive me up the freaking wall. Raid would be scheduled for a particular time and we wouldn't even leave the gathering point for at least an hour after that...every time... What needed to be done was make that time a hard and fast time. If you couldn't be on or couldn't be at the gathering point by the appointed time then you need to be left behind. If we can't get enough tanks or healers or whatever then postpone the raid and make it fully known who we needed or who was late and screwed the raid. People taking their sweet time and spending MY time by being late are some of the reasons I'm glad I don't do that crap anymore. Blowing an hour (of sleep usually) sitting around cause I got there on time and half the guild didn't is damn annoying...
</rant>
Thanks for such an articulate and thoughtful reply Jelanen, especially taking into account how cranky my original comment was.
But I think I've miscommunicated. I gave the example of not needing a group to watch the end of a DVD. I don't object to the amount of emotional and etc 'work' I have to do to get to the end of the movie, but I do object to not being able to get see the end at all, without the aid of 39 close personal friends/strangers. I don't mind the effort of hours of play at Monopoly, but I shouldn't need 39 people sitting next to me to enable me to buy a Hotel. I'm having a good time with my friends - do we need to haul in all these strangers?
I've though of an analogy:
I go to an Amusement Park. I buy a full price admission pass to go in and use the facilities.
I enjoy the initial area, and wish to go to a new one.
I’m told I have to play a game of ‘Whack 15 Moles” to access the new area.
I enjoy my mole whacking and enter.
I have to whack more moles and deliver a package to get into subsequent areas.
I gleefully whack and deliver, admiring the care put into each of the areas. I win little prizes.
And so on and so on for 60 more areas. I have immense fun in all of them.
BUT
At last I come to an area says I need 39 other people to accompany me, all at the same time, or no entry.
It doesn't matter how many hours I've spent in the park, nor how many moles I've whacked, or what I've learned, or how hard I've worked - all my experience is irrelevant. It's large groups only.
I look at my pass – I’ve paid for access to ALL the areas in the park. There is nothing stated about requiring a group of dozens of strangers in order to enter certain areas, and this has never happened before. ???
The park goes on and on, but I stop here.
I wouldn’t mind so much, but I’ve paid the same full price admission as the group on a bus tour that’s entering all together, and they get to play and whack things in the special restricted areas made just for them.
I ask management if there’s an equivalent area for me, and the many other unaccompanied people around.
They say not at present because they’re putting most of their effort into making the special group areas.
Somewhat disgruntled I return to the park areas I can access, and continue to enjoy myself there, but I don’t stop complaining about the inequity of the park design. Because sometimes The Management listens.
p.s.
Scaleable instances also = scaleable loot. I shouldn’t get OMGLE3TPURPLZ drops on a 'FunRun', nor do I expect to (I would consider that exploiting). Possibly epic balloon drops. Or ice cream for everyone. Whatever. But I want to somehow be able to go in and explore and play in that part of the sandbox, because it’s my sandbox too.
And it is, after all, just a game.
mab
not so cranky but still damned old
Ok somehow this thread went from guild management and restriction, to raiding, end game content, and casual vs hardcore.(As Always) I will attempt to stay on topic and put in my opinion on guilds.
Disclaimer: The views expressed in this post are property of Doc Octane. You are allowed to have your own.
Guild Management: (the Orginal intent)
If you don't want to be part of an organized/restricted guild then don't. It's that simple. There are no grounds in which to brow beat those who choose to do that. I can understand why someone would want to play casual and not "apply." However whats the point of complaining about others who do? This article is just a jab to stir the pot, which it has done. I personally don't like going through a website or some fashion of online application process either. I do, if I join a guild, want to be a part of an organized group. I can fully understand why guilds do such things. I was a guild leader and it's tough. I suggest anyone claiming to be a casual gamer, just looking to have a good time, start a guild and run it. I'm not saying it wasn't "fun". I enjoyed being a guild leader. You have to consider these guild leaders and what they are providing for your entertainment. A lot of guilds only ask that you act mature, donate a few credits, and help out in group activities. In return they manage resources to make sure the guild members are provided with weapons, munitions, player housing, cities, outpost, scheduled events, and all grades of in game luxeries that players often take for granted. I ran a very successful guild (I will spare naming the mmo) and our members were hand picked, eIther by myself or other founding members. Not because we wanted "elite" players. On the contrary we had lots of "casual" players. I just never saw the point in "zerg" guilds with 300 people you don't even know. Spamming in player hubs just to get big numbers and such makes no sense to me. If a guild is well organized and becomes "elite" on a server and has a reputation, have you ever thought that they deserve it. Why be jealous and blame it on hardcore vs. casual game play. Nothing obtained by one guild is unattainable by any other. The fact that some guild stands out above others and happens to be a restricted, organized, apply only organization, is a testiment to the method. Just like you can have a bad pick-up group you can have a bad guild.
Stating that these guilds are no fun to be in is assinine. Organized guilds are super fun to be in and operate. If you don't like that type of guild then just start your own dis-organized play and say however guild. I won't join it and we'll both be happy.
Casual Versus Hardcore:(The Other Topic)
This arguement is old. I'm tired of the debate. I'm also tired of the stereotype. "Time in Game" does not dictate whether I am a hardcore gamer or casual. If you believe otherwise you have a lot of proving your point to do. I have a full time job M-F 8 to 5. I have a side business I operate after 5 when I get home. I have a girlfriend. I have dogs. I like to bowl. I like to play music. I have tons of things in my life that take up *time*. These days I don't have much time to spend in game but I think I'm a hardcore gamer. When I'm in game I push myself to accomplish as much as a can. I have fun doing it. If I spent 12 hours a day in game chatting and using emotes versus 2 hours a day in game gearing up and knocking out mission content which is more hardcore? To be honest I'm both hardcore and casual. Sometimes I feel like being strictly business and sometimes I'd just assume spend my time Role Playing. What's the point of arguing over it? Why be upset over accomplished players and claim "Oh this game is casual gamer unfriendly."Bull$hit.ALL CONTENT IN EVERY GAME IS ACCESSIBLE BY EVERYONE WHO PLAYS IT. It is up to you to get it. Period. If someone is using the rule set and guidelines in game to accomplish themselves you have the same means as they do. The arguement of "Well I pay 15 dollars a month to I should get the super uber fire sword with the DOT". Why? DId you do the quest for it? Did you earn the credits to buy it? If so, yes you are entitled to it. If not why be jealous? A lot of games I suck at. That's just life. I'm not the best PvP'er in the gaming world. Some levels, or missions I just can't figure out. I'm not gonna let myself be envious of someone who did. You know the smart thing would be to ask more accomplished players to .....help you out? I imagine that would get you alot further in game then complaining that content is out of your means.....You know to get back to the original topic. Perhaps if you joined an organized guild the lines of casual versus hardcore would blur....
PS: I'm 30 years old. I hate cheating in games and never use any type of cheat code even for single player games. I do not support griefing, exploiting, and I choose to play with mature gamers. I don't support in game smack talk harrassment and if I'm not having fun in a game I hit cancel.
I'd like to say that this is one of the best and most important articles I have read on the subject.
I for one think that private gaming clubs detract from the games far more than they enhance the games. They are a relic from UO that developers just refuse to part with, even though the presence of a strong guild system causes problems that are beyond the ability of the developers to correct.
In fact, I'd have to say that if there was one "feature" that causes more trouble in the games from a play and development stadpoint, it would be the centrality of the private gaming club, or guild, as a means of organizing players. For some reason, guilds have been able to convince developers and players alike that guilds are fundamental to enjoying an MMO, but to be quite honest, we could just as easily do away with them, and the games would still be just as accessable and fun. Possibly even more fun, and more accessable.
I've been in this genre a long time, and it has yet to be proven to me that private gaming clubs:
--Provide a greater social atmosphere.
--Make games more accessable.
--Keep players in games.
--Make games more friendly.
--Enhances roleplay.
--Increases subscriber revenue.
--Expand player content.
--Provide greater help to n00bs.
--Prevent hacks, exploits, and cheating.
--Prevent grief.
These are the sorts of reasons developers and guild bosses keep on justifying guilds, but I'd have to say that the necessity of private gaming clubs for players and for games is more an assertion, rather than a fact.
I don't think the genre can grow in any meaningful way unless we get rid of the concept of players organizing themselves through privately organized clubs. There are far better ways of organizing players, without all the interpersonal drama, hazing, and trash that is bound to occur in a guild system.
__________________________
"Its sad when people use religion to feel superior, its even worse to see people using a video game to do it."
--Arcken
"...when it comes to pimping EVE I have little restraints."
--Hellmar, CEO of CCP.
"It's like they took a gun, put it to their nugget sack and pulled the trigger over and over again, each time telling us how great it was that they were shooting themselves in the balls."
--Exar_Kun on SWG's NGE