Most MMO's have level & item restrictions with new expansions. Its nothing new. Deal with it and quit whining.
Thanks for very a deep and constructive post.
Why does it need to be deep? Huh? You think you guys have a point here that needs detailed debate? You don't. What he says is completely true - doesn't need to have the pointless rhetoric you haters have when you have no real facts to back your whining up. The fact that so many people are blaming Blizzard for what is STANDARD PRACTISE for most level-based MMOs is a good reason for the BRICK IN THE FACE bluntness.
Welcome to MMOs, newbs. BRICK IN TEH FACE!
8000000 peeps have too much fun to argue yet they come and troll fora, trashtalk all they can without making any sensible argument, and feel all tough hiding behind they avatar/nickname/keyboard while polishing their oversized ego in the process.
/golfclap
Tip of the day: if you don't care, don't reply.
"Standard practice", "It's been done before"... Same all pointless junk again.
Meh, not gonna waste more time trying to educate you. So by your logic, anyone who makes a reply negative to yours is an ego maniac. Interesting...
I am glad that Blizzard does not emulate other companies when dealing with game updates. I have not yet explored the expansion to give you a proper representation on whether it was worth my money, but from the few information I managed to gather it seems that it is to excuse the money requested. Remains to be seen I guess.
I believe that with this expansion Blizzard is trying to return to the pre & early MC days. It's easily identifiable since the main focus is on the group instances again, not on the raid ones, and they did cut the raid size to half (if you consider that they also added an extra class in the equation).
PvP is no longer diminishing with lost time. That's a big plus. In the original game the GMs needed about 3 months of fully committed gameplay with a pre-made group to raise the victory ratio. Basically you were playing vs your own faction, or competing with your own faction if you like. That changed (for the better imo).
If the OP is only interested in PvP ( I got this impression), and if Blizzard allowed players to eventually reach the new cap level without the expansion, you would still be undergeared (more than today), due to both the superior enchants and the jewel-able armor. And this is the reason I mentioned jewels, sorry if I was not clear enough.
I am glad that Blizzard does not emulate other companies when dealing with game updates. I have not yet explored the expansion to give you a proper representation on whether it was worth my money, but from the few information I managed to gather it seems that it is to excuse the money requested. Remains to be seen I guess.
I believe that with this expansion Blizzard is trying to return to the pre & early MC days. It's easily identifiable since the main focus is on the group instances again, not on the raid ones, and they did cut the raid size to half (if you consider that they also added an extra class in the equation).
PvP is no longer diminishing with lost time. That's a big plus. In the original game the GMs needed about 3 months of fully committed gameplay with a pre-made group to raise the victory ratio. Basically you were playing vs your own faction, or competing with your own faction if you like. That changed (for the better imo).
If the OP is only interested in PvP ( I got this impression), and if Blizzard allowed players to eventually reach the new cap level without the expansion, you would still be undergeared (more than today), due to both the superior enchants and the jewel-able armor. And this is the reason I mentioned jewels, sorry if I was not clear enough.
very well put.
PVP will never be perfectly balanced or perfectly fair. Someone has to win. All the developers can do is try their absolute hardest to balance the classes and create the opportunity for equal standing. I say "create the opportunity for equal standing" meaning that all players can and should be able to have access to all content in the game if they so choose. to this extent, Blizzard has done an amazing job and as Xas said, "Blizzard is trying to return to the pre & early MC days. It's easily identifiable since the main focus is on the group instances again, not on the raid ones, and they did cut the raid size to half"
and the new way honor is calculated and spent, everyone has the opportunity to get the good pvp gear if they dedicate themselves to it. They have to make it hard/long process to get there, but at least now it is accessable rather then "Basically you were playing vs your own faction, or competing with your own faction if you like. That changed (for the better imo)"
Ummm its really not that unusual I mean you buy the expansion back and load it and it gives you all the materials and maps and access to the new areas, races, items and level ups. Its not about dedication / casual player its more about do you want to buy the expansion or not. Every game is that way if you don't buy the expansion you can't get to new areas, reach new levels, skills, and items.
Its completely normal and its not geared against casual players. Casual doesn't mean unable to buy the expansion pack, casual just means unable to put 5+ hours in Every single day.
Besides nothing in the original areas of the game is going to get you to 70 they don't offer enough exp or they start turning green fast.
Xasp :
Besides, if it's a matter of money, I'm glad WoW is not controlled by Sony, else you would pay for any tiny patch of land introduced in the game.
Sony did not make you pay for every single patch update. They added in alot of raid and guild content and more for free just like wow all the "big' stuff wow gave everyone for free like pvp battlegrounds etc were promised at launch so they couldnt' go and make you pay for it people would be P***ed off big time. You still paid for that patch of land WOW brought in so don't kid yourself, they've not added in any new conteninents for free that wasn't promised since before launch.
All the mini packs EQ2 has come out with and big expansions were not promised features of their launch and pretty game changing add ons in some cases. Besides their add ons and expansions are way cheaper than blizzards 1 new continent 2 new races and no new class expansion (although TBC is pretty awsome for the price)
Please Refer to Doom Cat with all conspiracies & evil corporation complaints. He'll give you the simple explination of..WE"RE ALL DOOMED!
My first reaction was ...of course, select "Yes". But after reading the posts I can understand where the OP is coming from.
I'm not a fan of game expansions that raise the level caps, DAOC never did it (well, besides the left handed TOA exp) and even now I don't have their latest exp, labyrinth and I still feel competitive in the Battlegrounds and stuff. (heck, i can buy gear from the expansion and use it, without having it.)
But consider this... I think the OP said that Blizzard didnt have to develop any new content for the new levels...so they didn't need to charge for it. But remember, with each new level comes access to new spells, abilities and talents...and those most definitely took work to develop... so I can see why Blizzard restricted them to the expansion.
Let's be honest... Blizzard wants to make as much money as they can....and they want everyone to buy the expansion.... beside the initial money received...its much easier to support your customers if everyone is on the same code base. Limiting people to level 60 if they didn't buy the expansion is just one more way to 'encourage' you to buy it.. w/o actually forcing you to.
Just trying to live long enough to play a new, released MMORPG, playing New Worlds atm
Fools find no pleasure in understanding but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV
Don't just play games, inhabit virtual worlds™
"This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon
I'm just curious Kyleran where you think they should put all this new content needed to get people to level 70? I mean just throw on a few more dungeons to the old lands? What about items i mean obviously they only exist in the new world so whats the point of reaching 70 in the old lands if you have jack to show for it? From what I've seen you need a HELLA alot of XP to even get to 70 and the old mobs and a few sprinkled new ones in the old lands would never get you there.
Sure they could of charged alot less than they did (which I whole heartedly believe they are over charging) but they didn't. Lets face it with as many servers as wow has to keep adding on, which means paying for more server liscences, connections, more maintence people we're gonna have to keep shelling out bucks for expansions and monthly payments. Blizzard is a company, a business, they have employees and investors to pay expansions are a part of the business with MMOs want something new? Pay for it.
Please Refer to Doom Cat with all conspiracies & evil corporation complaints. He'll give you the simple explination of..WE"RE ALL DOOMED!
It's Blizzard's game alright, yet they'd be better off caring about the community, wouldn't they?
Unfortunately, my mains are on a PvP server. And running around in contested territory with a character wearing random blues vs a fully fledged T2 and what not wasn't a nice sight back then... I don't even want to imagine vs a lvl 70 in one of the new stuff.
This is what I hate about people like you. You come of as if you ARE the community. You are, supposedly, a member of the community. You are not representing the community here so don't try to pull that one off. I don't see how caring comes to play in this business.
asking for a moderately fair playground for everyone is great in theory but how do you do it? that's the big question. how do you not reward people for dedication? how do you not punish people for playing casually? these are the questions Blizzard had in mind when they created WoW, hence why you see the rest system, a MMO first. Hence you have raids/pvp content geared towards the more dedicated player, but an easier and more casual leveling system. what is your idea on how to make it better?
Errr you start by not locking something as simple as the level cap?
As far as equal footing in a broader way goes, Guild Wars is a good example for several reasons though I'm not here to advertise it nor would it be applicable in WoW's case (and if they were carbon copy of each other, it would be rather dull). Anyway, making it so that how well you play matters more than how much time you spend is far from an utopia.
Every game is that way if you don't buy the expansion you can't get to new areas, reach new levels, skills, and items.
Sorry wrong, as someone else mentioned, DAoC didn't raise the level cap. Back in the days of Shrouded Isles, it didn't prevent people from getting the x-pac.
I'm just curious Kyleran where you think they should put all this new content needed to get people to level 70? I mean just throw on a few more dungeons to the old lands? What about items i mean obviously they only exist in the new world so whats the point of reaching 70 in the old lands if you have jack to show for it? From what I've seen you need a HELLA alot of XP to even get to 70 and the old mobs and a few sprinkled new ones in the old lands would never get you there. Sure they could of charged alot less than they did (which I whole heartedly believe they are over charging) but they didn't. Lets face it with as many servers as wow has to keep adding on, which means paying for more server liscences, connections, more maintence people we're gonna have to keep shelling out bucks for expansions and monthly payments. Blizzard is a company, a business, they have employees and investors to pay expansions are a part of the business with MMOs want something new? Pay for it.
Unfortunately as it stands right, owners of the base game are stuck. Say you can't/don't want BC yet for reason XYZ... Your lvl 60 character won't evolve. Why keep playing them before you get BC?
Blizzard is a business whose main incomes come from subscriptions, and I bet no one's allowed to play WoW for free w/o BC right? Locking level cap that way is very lame business practice in my book, sorry. It's not even a cost issue. So please don't bring that in the matter.
Most MMO's have level & item restrictions with new expansions. Its nothing new. Deal with it and quit whining.
Thanks for very a deep and constructive post.
Why does it need to be deep? Huh? You think you guys have a point here that needs detailed debate? You don't. What he says is completely true - doesn't need to have the pointless rhetoric you haters have when you have no real facts to back your whining up. The fact that so many people are blaming Blizzard for what is STANDARD PRACTISE for most level-based MMOs is a good reason for the BRICK IN THE FACE bluntness.
Welcome to MMOs, newbs. BRICK IN TEH FACE!
8000000 peeps have too much fun to argue yet they come and troll fora, trashtalk all they can without making any sensible argument, and feel all tough hiding behind they avatar/nickname/keyboard while polishing their oversized ego in the process.
/golfclap
Tip of the day: if you don't care, don't reply.
"Standard practice", "It's been done before"... Same all pointless junk again.
Meh, not gonna waste more time trying to educate you. So by your logic, anyone who makes a reply negative to yours is an ego maniac. Interesting...
Someone who disagrees and comes up with coherent and defendable arguments, nope.
Someone who comes up with all kind of mindless trash that leads nowhere, definitely.
It's Blizzard's game alright, yet they'd be better off caring about the community, wouldn't they?
Unfortunately, my mains are on a PvP server. And running around in contested territory with a character wearing random blues vs a fully fledged T2 and what not wasn't a nice sight back then... I don't even want to imagine vs a lvl 70 in one of the new stuff.
This is what I hate about people like you. You come of as if you ARE the community. You are, supposedly, a member of the community. You are not representing the community here so don't try to pull that one off. I don't see how caring comes to play in this business.
Nope, I'm but a customer who's part of an unfortunately minor portion of their player base apparently. Guys who don't like beeing seen as cash cows.
It's not even that I can't afford BC, but those decisions make me want to puke. Trials of Atlantis all over again.
I had to think hard to decide how to reply to you Secrom since you sort of troll replied to people.
Ok first off someone else brought up the money issue. So don't tell me where not to frigging go.
Second I already said (unless i accidently edited it out) said DAoC is an exception. I've played alot of MMO's and DAoC is the only one to do that and the way their world is set up it must of been completly pratical to get to the new level cap without the expansion, I don't see that happening in wow.
It is NOT pratical or fair to other players in wow. And here's my full reason why. Say you're very close to 60 and you need and or want to go to a praticular area that in the past (pre expansion) was filled with mostly level 60 players grinding faction or what not. Now because there is a new level cap but you can reach it without the expansion you still can't really get anything effectively done there because the mobs there are the only ones that offer someone say around 62 experience thats worth grinding on. Is that fair to a large newer player base? Absolutely not. The old areas of WOW are not made to get you to level 70 without disrupting play for lower level characters which those areas were designed for. Sure they could revamp the entire area but that would be extremely unheard of in any game as far as I know. Sure I've played games where they revamped an area to be harder because it was too easy or there was some world event going on but in this case that was not the story. If you look at the situation with the frame of mind of how does this work with WOW, how does this affect current lower level players, I see very little alternative actions that could happen that would be the closest to 'fair' as they could get. If you compare it to another game it doesn't work because said game is going to be set up different than other said game.
Now take that stuff it in your brain somewhere and find a better way to refute my opinion on the matter than telling me "don't go there" attitude or the well because DAoC did it crap. I think thats a lame excuse because 1 game. 1 game that has a WAY WAY WAY smaller player base did it. There's a large number of successful games that have done as WOW has done.
God i really hate it when people make feel like some fanbois poster when I'm far from considering I cancel my WOW account every 3 to 4 months because I get bored or pissed at how item important the game is over skill and brains, but there's always someone somewhere bound to tick me off.
Please Refer to Doom Cat with all conspiracies & evil corporation complaints. He'll give you the simple explination of..WE"RE ALL DOOMED!
My question is what would be the point of oppening the level cap to 70 for people without BC ? considering everything xp wise is designed to xp to 60 in the pre expansion areas. How long would it take you to xp to 70 in the pre expansion areas? And as far the statements about DAoC and the level cap etc. Is misleading. The fact is DAoC increases levels without calling them levels. With TOA expansions you got 10 Master Levels that could only be gotten with that expansion. Darkness rising introduced 5 Champion levels that you can only get with that expansion. The latest expansion for DAoC tacks on 5 more champ levels that again can only be obtained with that expansion as well. The only level increases in DAoC that have come with out an expansion that you had to pay for are Realm Ranks.
There are some rather startling assumptions being made in this thread.
1) [i]X-Pac players will be beating the hell out of non x-pac players via superior gear and levels.[/i] Those players with TBC will spend the bulk of thier time in the Outland or other new content areas. Zones like the Plaguelands, Winterspring, and Sithilis will have no appeal to those trying to reach level 70. I believe the mobs in those zones will be nearly worthless to anyone over 65. The xp and drops simply don't match up to TBC gear.
2) [i]X-Pac players will destroy non x-pac players in BG[/i] A new tier for all battlegrounds has been implemented for characters level 61+. There is a limit to what gear a TBC character can aquire without leveling to 61. And a large number of Outlands BoE drops for level 60's are beginning to appear on the auction houses usable by anyone.
The fact is that if you choose not to purchase TBC your game experience will not change that dramitacally. You simply will not be able to access the new content.
The most important part of reading is reading between the lines.
Well, I think Secrom has a point and I feel very much like he does. Blizzard is obviously blackmailing players into buying the expansion.
The lvl70 cap (plus uber-gear) practically forces the player to buy the addon, doesn't matter if he/she is actually interested in the content of the addon or even more important still satisfied with the original game (I was, but then again I quit a year ago and wanted to resubscribe, but with BC out I probably won't).
WoW and BC cost 52€ here, that's 7€ more than the original WoW cost two years ago, it also doesn't include a free month like it did back then, which thus totals in the game being 20€ more expensive than it's original release. The expansion itself is also rather expensive compared to the usual addon price of around 20-25€. Further more, back when subscription fees were introduced several years ago the main justification were server maintenance, anti-cheat funding and -noteably- content expansion. And while it may be common practice by now to offer purchasable expansions, Secrom is netherless correct when he argues 'only because other companies do it too, doesn't make it right' and it isn't right, it's quite simply a rip off in fact!
Some of you may not agree since you may love this game so much you'd spend your last dime on it, others might not agree because they're dedicated Blizzard/Warcraft fanboys who can't stand criticism anyhow but whatever the reason, I for my part have often felt ripped off by software companies in the past and I think that is what Blizzard is doing now. I'm not anti-Blizzard, I admired them for the way they distributed the Diablo/WC series, no online costs and a few expansions once in a while, I considered that fair towards the customer. Now we've got online fees, fair enough, expensive addons, fine also, but I'd still like to be able to play the game I originally bought without being forced to buy an expansion which I don't really want. Clearly this calls for non-BC realms imo and if Blizzard were the company they were back in the Diablo/WC day they would offer this possibility, but they don't and I think it's painfully obvious why not.
PS: Keep in mind that non-BC users like addon subscribers pay a monthly fee, they too have invested loads of time in this game and their characters, thus it's simply not done by saying 'quit playing'. Blizzard earned a lot of money from these non-BC players (aka all of us) in the past two years (in my case even back to the original Diablo/WC1) it's just not right to bust our balls like this.
Its a very normal marketing strategy meanwhile to do this.. think Funcom with Anarchy Online were the first that increased lvl caps and added a talent like system only available through an expansion. And yeah Blizzard does the same now and they damn well know many ppl that simply love the game will buy it and dont care much... its not like THAT expensive imo anyway. And when you really think its too expensive for your taste then simply wait a half year till you can get it for 9.99 $ dollar over the page with a few clicks (and no package) or wait for the next expansion that will contain BC for free... its just the way it goes meanwhile. Welcome to the marketing of MMORPGs
After reading all this whinging i wish blizzard would raise the level cap for non TBC subscribers just so i could come along and watch you kill 8 million boars to get from level 60-61.
Realistically all this would do would mean that people trying to get to 60 will have people tryign to get to 70 without the expansion just farming all the mobs they need to 60. IT becomes messy and horrible and people who arent even 60 yet quit becuase everything they need to level up is being farmed by people who have been 60 since before the cap was raised. And like someone else already said as soon as you reach level 66 you wont be able to get any xp from normal mobs in azeroth.
Its a very normal marketing strategy meanwhile to do this.. think Funcom with Anarchy Online were the first that increased lvl caps and added a talent like system only available through an expansion. And yeah Blizzard does the same now and they damn well know many ppl that simply love the game will buy it and dont care much... its not like THAT expensive imo anyway. And when you really think its too expensive for your taste then simply wait a half year till you can get it for 9.99 $ dollar over the page with a few clicks (and no package) or wait for the next expansion that will contain BC for free... its just the way it goes meanwhile. Welcome to the marketing of MMORPGs
Yes, you're correct, it has become common practice in MMORPG marketing. I'm aware of this process and my complaint mainly derives from the fact that I don't agree with what is happening, that's all really. Mind you, it's not really Funcom's fault, Sony is far more greedy when it comes to expansions. But the BC addon is actually more along the lines of Diablo HoE/LoD. Add some imba items, raise the lvl caps somewhat and voila the addon is finished (on a sidenote I loved the LoD expansion, so don't get me wrong).
But there were two substantial differences back then. First of all Diablo was free online play, thus it was only justified to charge money for an expansion (which btw cost about 50% of the original game, unlike BC which is more around 75% even though it 's not a standalone and comes without a free month). Another thing was (and this angers me most) classic Diablo and LoD expansion were played independent from one another. No one was forced to play LoD, the player aka customer had a choice! This doesn't apply in WoW, one is simply forced to buy the expansion if one wants to stay competitve. Seriously, as soon as your epic lvl60 char gets ganked over and over again by some lvl70 greenequiped guy there simply is no alternative to either buying the addon or quitting the game. What's more, LoD didn't trash hundreds of hours worth of gameplay like BC did. Sure the items aren't gone as such, but within a few weeks they'll be considered more or less worthless, no matter how rare or good the items were.
So, while I do think in comparison it is expensive (48€ for people like me, who've not subscribed in a while) it's less about the money but rather principle. I'm just sick of this constant moneygrabbing by the industry and how little they respect the wishes of their customers and the 'effort' we've put into our game/char whatever. Of course many people want an addon, but some of us simply want to play WoW again without going to such lengths. I don't want to ramble, but when we're not getting our efforts crushed by expansions or sudden alterations in gameplay/-rules, we get used as betatesters for bugged releases and if one hasn't got an internet connection or perhaps just a slow connection which can't handle a patch of 250MB's worth, well too bad -"fu and bb" or games like Max Payne eg. 6 hours worth of gameplay for 45€ (hardly any replayability, no mp) or games/audio cds which we've bought but don't work due to copy protection "haha, tough luck" etc.
Just to sum it up, I'm not asking to play content I've not bought, I simply want to play the game I bought two years ago, but that'll be a practical impossibility soon. I'll never get why people like the one beneath your post laughs at alleged 'whiners' like myself or Secrom simply for opposing this f'd up policy by the industry. If anyone is laughing it's most likely Blizzard -at all of us.
But you are playing the game you bought. You bought a game that had a level cap of 60 with the content to match that cap. And that's what you still have. You can still roll numerous other characters, play through all the level 60 content and instances and the like ... but the game you bought didn't feature a level cap of 70, and new zones designed to get to that cap. That's part of an expanded game: an expansion in zones, and expansion in races, and an expansion in levels. If you want to do any part of that expansion (zones, races, levels), you need to buy the expansion. It's really very logical.
Great move by Bliz if you ask me, they've got some many people hooked why not gouge some more cash out of them, I'd be over the moon if I was a shareholder.
And if you don't like what they've done then leave the game, if enough people suddenly stop subscribing they'll know they've done something wrong.
I know how greedy SOE is with expansions and dont forget they also sold items as package. But i learned my lesson and dont touch any SOE products anymore.. i am done with SOE.. they can make Pooguards and what ever game i simply wont pick up their games anymore. But unlike SOE i know Blizzard at least puts in quality work and not some quickly assembled garbage and thats why i can deal with BC.
Most MMO's have level & item restrictions with new expansions. Its nothing new. Deal with it and quit whining.
Thanks for very a deep and constructive post.
Why does it need to be deep? Huh? You think you guys have a point here that needs detailed debate? You don't. What he says is completely true - doesn't need to have the pointless rhetoric you haters have when you have no real facts to back your whining up. The fact that so many people are blaming Blizzard for what is STANDARD PRACTISE for most level-based MMOs is a good reason for the BRICK IN THE FACE bluntness.
Welcome to MMOs, newbs. BRICK IN TEH FACE!
8000000 peeps have too much fun to argue yet they come and troll fora, trashtalk all they can without making any sensible argument, and feel all tough hiding behind they avatar/nickname/keyboard while polishing their oversized ego in the process.
/golfclap
Tip of the day: if you don't care, don't reply.
"Standard practice", "It's been done before"... Same all pointless junk again.
Meh, not gonna waste more time trying to educate you.So by your logic, anyone who makes a reply negative to yours is an ego maniac. Interesting...
Comments
Why does it need to be deep? Huh? You think you guys have a point here that needs detailed debate? You don't. What he says is completely true - doesn't need to have the pointless rhetoric you haters have when you have no real facts to back your whining up. The fact that so many people are blaming Blizzard for what is STANDARD PRACTISE for most level-based MMOs is a good reason for the BRICK IN THE FACE bluntness.
Welcome to MMOs, newbs. BRICK IN TEH FACE!
8000000 peeps have too much fun to argue yet they come and troll fora, trashtalk all they can without making any sensible argument, and feel all tough hiding behind they avatar/nickname/keyboard while polishing their oversized ego in the process.
/golfclap
Tip of the day: if you don't care, don't reply.
"Standard practice", "It's been done before"... Same all pointless junk again.
Meh, not gonna waste more time trying to educate you. So by your logic, anyone who makes a reply negative to yours is an ego maniac. Interesting...
---
I believe that with this expansion Blizzard is trying to return to the pre & early MC days. It's easily identifiable since the main focus is on the group instances again, not on the raid ones, and they did cut the raid size to half (if you consider that they also added an extra class in the equation).
PvP is no longer diminishing with lost time. That's a big plus. In the original game the GMs needed about 3 months of fully committed gameplay with a pre-made group to raise the victory ratio. Basically you were playing vs your own faction, or competing with your own faction if you like. That changed (for the better imo).
If the OP is only interested in PvP ( I got this impression), and if Blizzard allowed players to eventually reach the new cap level without the expansion, you would still be undergeared (more than today), due to both the superior enchants and the jewel-able armor. And this is the reason I mentioned jewels, sorry if I was not clear enough.
very well put.
PVP will never be perfectly balanced or perfectly fair. Someone has to win. All the developers can do is try their absolute hardest to balance the classes and create the opportunity for equal standing. I say "create the opportunity for equal standing" meaning that all players can and should be able to have access to all content in the game if they so choose. to this extent, Blizzard has done an amazing job and as Xas said, "Blizzard is trying to return to the pre & early MC days. It's easily identifiable since the main focus is on the group instances again, not on the raid ones, and they did cut the raid size to half"
and the new way honor is calculated and spent, everyone has the opportunity to get the good pvp gear if they dedicate themselves to it. They have to make it hard/long process to get there, but at least now it is accessable rather then "Basically you were playing vs your own faction, or competing with your own faction if you like. That changed (for the better imo)"
Ummm its really not that unusual I mean you buy the expansion back and load it and it gives you all the materials and maps and access to the new areas, races, items and level ups. Its not about dedication / casual player its more about do you want to buy the expansion or not. Every game is that way if you don't buy the expansion you can't get to new areas, reach new levels, skills, and items.
Its completely normal and its not geared against casual players. Casual doesn't mean unable to buy the expansion pack, casual just means unable to put 5+ hours in Every single day.
Besides nothing in the original areas of the game is going to get you to 70 they don't offer enough exp or they start turning green fast.
Xasp :
Besides, if it's a matter of money, I'm glad WoW is not controlled by Sony, else you would pay for any tiny patch of land introduced in the game.
Sony did not make you pay for every single patch update. They added in alot of raid and guild content and more for free just like wow all the "big' stuff wow gave everyone for free like pvp battlegrounds etc were promised at launch so they couldnt' go and make you pay for it people would be P***ed off big time. You still paid for that patch of land WOW brought in so don't kid yourself, they've not added in any new conteninents for free that wasn't promised since before launch.
All the mini packs EQ2 has come out with and big expansions were not promised features of their launch and pretty game changing add ons in some cases. Besides their add ons and expansions are way cheaper than blizzards 1 new continent 2 new races and no new class expansion (although TBC is pretty awsome for the price)
Please Refer to Doom Cat with all conspiracies & evil corporation complaints. He'll give you the simple explination of..WE"RE ALL DOOMED!
My first reaction was ...of course, select "Yes". But after reading the posts I can understand where the OP is coming from.
I'm not a fan of game expansions that raise the level caps, DAOC never did it (well, besides the left handed TOA exp) and even now I don't have their latest exp, labyrinth and I still feel competitive in the Battlegrounds and stuff. (heck, i can buy gear from the expansion and use it, without having it.)
But consider this... I think the OP said that Blizzard didnt have to develop any new content for the new levels...so they didn't need to charge for it. But remember, with each new level comes access to new spells, abilities and talents...and those most definitely took work to develop... so I can see why Blizzard restricted them to the expansion.
Let's be honest... Blizzard wants to make as much money as they can....and they want everyone to buy the expansion.... beside the initial money received...its much easier to support your customers if everyone is on the same code base. Limiting people to level 60 if they didn't buy the expansion is just one more way to 'encourage' you to buy it.. w/o actually forcing you to.
"True friends stab you in the front." | Oscar Wilde
"I need to finish" - Christian Wolff: The Accountant
Just trying to live long enough to play a new, released MMORPG, playing New Worlds atm
Fools find no pleasure in understanding but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV
Don't just play games, inhabit virtual worlds™
"This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon
I'm just curious Kyleran where you think they should put all this new content needed to get people to level 70? I mean just throw on a few more dungeons to the old lands? What about items i mean obviously they only exist in the new world so whats the point of reaching 70 in the old lands if you have jack to show for it? From what I've seen you need a HELLA alot of XP to even get to 70 and the old mobs and a few sprinkled new ones in the old lands would never get you there.
Sure they could of charged alot less than they did (which I whole heartedly believe they are over charging) but they didn't. Lets face it with as many servers as wow has to keep adding on, which means paying for more server liscences, connections, more maintence people we're gonna have to keep shelling out bucks for expansions and monthly payments. Blizzard is a company, a business, they have employees and investors to pay expansions are a part of the business with MMOs want something new? Pay for it.
Please Refer to Doom Cat with all conspiracies & evil corporation complaints. He'll give you the simple explination of..WE"RE ALL DOOMED!
This is what I hate about people like you. You come of as if you ARE the community. You are, supposedly, a member of the community. You are not representing the community here so don't try to pull that one off. I don't see how caring comes to play in this business.
Errr you start by not locking something as simple as the level cap?
As far as equal footing in a broader way goes, Guild Wars is a good example for several reasons though I'm not here to advertise it nor would it be applicable in WoW's case (and if they were carbon copy of each other, it would be rather dull). Anyway, making it so that how well you play matters more than how much time you spend is far from an utopia.
__________
Ever wondered what a hardcore WoW raider looked like?
R.I.P. Laura "Taera" Genender
Sorry wrong, as someone else mentioned, DAoC didn't raise the level cap. Back in the days of Shrouded Isles, it didn't prevent people from getting the x-pac.
ToA is a different story.
__________
Ever wondered what a hardcore WoW raider looked like?
R.I.P. Laura "Taera" Genender
Explicitely not forced to, that's true. Implicitely though (that's still with PvP in mind)...
__________
Ever wondered what a hardcore WoW raider looked like?
R.I.P. Laura "Taera" Genender
Unfortunately as it stands right, owners of the base game are stuck. Say you can't/don't want BC yet for reason XYZ... Your lvl 60 character won't evolve. Why keep playing them before you get BC?
Blizzard is a business whose main incomes come from subscriptions, and I bet no one's allowed to play WoW for free w/o BC right? Locking level cap that way is very lame business practice in my book, sorry. It's not even a cost issue. So please don't bring that in the matter.
__________
Ever wondered what a hardcore WoW raider looked like?
R.I.P. Laura "Taera" Genender
Why does it need to be deep? Huh? You think you guys have a point here that needs detailed debate? You don't. What he says is completely true - doesn't need to have the pointless rhetoric you haters have when you have no real facts to back your whining up. The fact that so many people are blaming Blizzard for what is STANDARD PRACTISE for most level-based MMOs is a good reason for the BRICK IN THE FACE bluntness.
Welcome to MMOs, newbs. BRICK IN TEH FACE!
8000000 peeps have too much fun to argue yet they come and troll fora, trashtalk all they can without making any sensible argument, and feel all tough hiding behind they avatar/nickname/keyboard while polishing their oversized ego in the process.
/golfclap
Tip of the day: if you don't care, don't reply.
"Standard practice", "It's been done before"... Same all pointless junk again.
Meh, not gonna waste more time trying to educate you. So by your logic, anyone who makes a reply negative to yours is an ego maniac. Interesting...
Someone who disagrees and comes up with coherent and defendable arguments, nope.
Someone who comes up with all kind of mindless trash that leads nowhere, definitely.
__________
Ever wondered what a hardcore WoW raider looked like?
R.I.P. Laura "Taera" Genender
This is what I hate about people like you. You come of as if you ARE the community. You are, supposedly, a member of the community. You are not representing the community here so don't try to pull that one off. I don't see how caring comes to play in this business.
Nope, I'm but a customer who's part of an unfortunately minor portion of their player base apparently. Guys who don't like beeing seen as cash cows.
It's not even that I can't afford BC, but those decisions make me want to puke. Trials of Atlantis all over again.
__________
Ever wondered what a hardcore WoW raider looked like?
R.I.P. Laura "Taera" Genender
I had to think hard to decide how to reply to you Secrom since you sort of troll replied to people.
Ok first off someone else brought up the money issue. So don't tell me where not to frigging go.
Second I already said (unless i accidently edited it out) said DAoC is an exception. I've played alot of MMO's and DAoC is the only one to do that and the way their world is set up it must of been completly pratical to get to the new level cap without the expansion, I don't see that happening in wow.
It is NOT pratical or fair to other players in wow. And here's my full reason why. Say you're very close to 60 and you need and or want to go to a praticular area that in the past (pre expansion) was filled with mostly level 60 players grinding faction or what not. Now because there is a new level cap but you can reach it without the expansion you still can't really get anything effectively done there because the mobs there are the only ones that offer someone say around 62 experience thats worth grinding on. Is that fair to a large newer player base? Absolutely not. The old areas of WOW are not made to get you to level 70 without disrupting play for lower level characters which those areas were designed for. Sure they could revamp the entire area but that would be extremely unheard of in any game as far as I know. Sure I've played games where they revamped an area to be harder because it was too easy or there was some world event going on but in this case that was not the story. If you look at the situation with the frame of mind of how does this work with WOW, how does this affect current lower level players, I see very little alternative actions that could happen that would be the closest to 'fair' as they could get. If you compare it to another game it doesn't work because said game is going to be set up different than other said game.
Now take that stuff it in your brain somewhere and find a better way to refute my opinion on the matter than telling me "don't go there" attitude or the well because DAoC did it crap. I think thats a lame excuse because 1 game. 1 game that has a WAY WAY WAY smaller player base did it. There's a large number of successful games that have done as WOW has done.
God i really hate it when people make feel like some fanbois poster when I'm far from considering I cancel my WOW account every 3 to 4 months because I get bored or pissed at how item important the game is over skill and brains, but there's always someone somewhere bound to tick me off.
Please Refer to Doom Cat with all conspiracies & evil corporation complaints. He'll give you the simple explination of..WE"RE ALL DOOMED!
1) [i]X-Pac players will be beating the hell out of non x-pac players via superior gear and levels.[/i] Those players with TBC will spend the bulk of thier time in the Outland or other new content areas. Zones like the Plaguelands, Winterspring, and Sithilis will have no appeal to those trying to reach level 70. I believe the mobs in those zones will be nearly worthless to anyone over 65. The xp and drops simply don't match up to TBC gear.
2) [i]X-Pac players will destroy non x-pac players in BG[/i] A new tier for all battlegrounds has been implemented for characters level 61+. There is a limit to what gear a TBC character can aquire without leveling to 61. And a large number of Outlands BoE drops for level 60's are beginning to appear on the auction houses usable by anyone.
The fact is that if you choose not to purchase TBC your game experience will not change that dramitacally. You simply will not be able to access the new content.
The most important part of reading is reading between the lines.
The lvl70 cap (plus uber-gear) practically forces the player to buy the addon, doesn't matter if he/she is actually interested in the content of the addon or even more important still satisfied with the original game (I was, but then again I quit a year ago and wanted to resubscribe, but with BC out I probably won't).
WoW and BC cost 52€ here, that's 7€ more than the original WoW cost two years ago, it also doesn't include a free month like it did back then, which thus totals in the game being 20€ more expensive than it's original release. The expansion itself is also rather expensive compared to the usual addon price of around 20-25€. Further more, back when subscription fees were introduced several years ago the main justification were server maintenance, anti-cheat funding and -noteably- content expansion. And while it may be common practice by now to offer purchasable expansions, Secrom is netherless correct when he argues 'only because other companies do it too, doesn't make it right' and it isn't right, it's quite simply a rip off in fact!
Some of you may not agree since you may love this game so much you'd spend your last dime on it, others might not agree because they're dedicated Blizzard/Warcraft fanboys who can't stand criticism anyhow but whatever the reason, I for my part have often felt ripped off by software companies in the past and I think that is what Blizzard is doing now. I'm not anti-Blizzard, I admired them for the way they distributed the Diablo/WC series, no online costs and a few expansions once in a while, I considered that fair towards the customer. Now we've got online fees, fair enough, expensive addons, fine also, but I'd still like to be able to play the game I originally bought without being forced to buy an expansion which I don't really want. Clearly this calls for non-BC realms imo and if Blizzard were the company they were back in the Diablo/WC day they would offer this possibility, but they don't and I think it's painfully obvious why not.
PS: Keep in mind that non-BC users like addon subscribers pay a monthly fee, they too have invested loads of time in this game and their characters, thus it's simply not done by saying 'quit playing'. Blizzard earned a lot of money from these non-BC players (aka all of us) in the past two years (in my case even back to the original Diablo/WC1) it's just not right to bust our balls like this.
Its a very normal marketing strategy meanwhile to do this.. think Funcom with Anarchy Online were the first that increased lvl caps and added a talent like system only available through an expansion. And yeah Blizzard does the same now and they damn well know many ppl that simply love the game will buy it and dont care much... its not like THAT expensive imo anyway. And when you really think its too expensive for your taste then simply wait a half year till you can get it for 9.99 $ dollar over the page with a few clicks (and no package) or wait for the next expansion that will contain BC for free... its just the way it goes meanwhile. Welcome to the marketing of MMORPGs
Realistically all this would do would mean that people trying to get to 60 will have people tryign to get to 70 without the expansion just farming all the mobs they need to 60. IT becomes messy and horrible and people who arent even 60 yet quit becuase everything they need to level up is being farmed by people who have been 60 since before the cap was raised. And like someone else already said as soon as you reach level 66 you wont be able to get any xp from normal mobs in azeroth.
But there were two substantial differences back then. First of all Diablo was free online play, thus it was only justified to charge money for an expansion (which btw cost about 50% of the original game, unlike BC which is more around 75% even though it 's not a standalone and comes without a free month). Another thing was (and this angers me most) classic Diablo and LoD expansion were played independent from one another. No one was forced to play LoD, the player aka customer had a choice! This doesn't apply in WoW, one is simply forced to buy the expansion if one wants to stay competitve. Seriously, as soon as your epic lvl60 char gets ganked over and over again by some lvl70 greenequiped guy there simply is no alternative to either buying the addon or quitting the game. What's more, LoD didn't trash hundreds of hours worth of gameplay like BC did. Sure the items aren't gone as such, but within a few weeks they'll be considered more or less worthless, no matter how rare or good the items were.
So, while I do think in comparison it is expensive (48€ for people like me, who've not subscribed in a while) it's less about the money but rather principle. I'm just sick of this constant moneygrabbing by the industry and how little they respect the wishes of their customers and the 'effort' we've put into our game/char whatever. Of course many people want an addon, but some of us simply want to play WoW again without going to such lengths. I don't want to ramble, but when we're not getting our efforts crushed by expansions or sudden alterations in gameplay/-rules, we get used as betatesters for bugged releases and if one hasn't got an internet connection or perhaps just a slow connection which can't handle a patch of 250MB's worth, well too bad -"fu and bb" or games like Max Payne eg. 6 hours worth of gameplay for 45€ (hardly any replayability, no mp) or games/audio cds which we've bought but don't work due to copy protection "haha, tough luck" etc.
Just to sum it up, I'm not asking to play content I've not bought, I simply want to play the game I bought two years ago, but that'll be a practical impossibility soon. I'll never get why people like the one beneath your post laughs at alleged 'whiners' like myself or Secrom simply for opposing this f'd up policy by the industry. If anyone is laughing it's most likely Blizzard -at all of us.
And if you don't like what they've done then leave the game, if enough people suddenly stop subscribing they'll know they've done something wrong.
-Semper ubi sub ubi!
always wear underwear
@sposocke
I know how greedy SOE is with expansions and dont forget they also sold items as package. But i learned my lesson and dont touch any SOE products anymore.. i am done with SOE.. they can make Pooguards and what ever game i simply wont pick up their games anymore. But unlike SOE i know Blizzard at least puts in quality work and not some quickly assembled garbage and thats why i can deal with BC.
Why does it need to be deep? Huh? You think you guys have a point here that needs detailed debate? You don't. What he says is completely true - doesn't need to have the pointless rhetoric you haters have when you have no real facts to back your whining up. The fact that so many people are blaming Blizzard for what is STANDARD PRACTISE for most level-based MMOs is a good reason for the BRICK IN THE FACE bluntness.
Welcome to MMOs, newbs. BRICK IN TEH FACE!
8000000 peeps have too much fun to argue yet they come and troll fora, trashtalk all they can without making any sensible argument, and feel all tough hiding behind they avatar/nickname/keyboard while polishing their oversized ego in the process.
/golfclap
Tip of the day: if you don't care, don't reply.
"Standard practice", "It's been done before"... Same all pointless junk again.
Meh, not gonna waste more time trying to educate you.So by your logic, anyone who makes a reply negative to yours is an ego maniac. Interesting...
I always have fun with strawman arguments too.