How is pvp "done right"?

frown · April 2004

I've played a lot of rpgs, and the way they do pvp varies. Below is how I think pvp should be done "right". I encourage you to post what you think and how pvp should be "done right.

my idea of it done right: You can always attack other players, if you attack other players in a town you will die by automated defenses or guards. Theres a dueling ground in the towns which only two people may enter at a time, which is used for 1 vs. 1, with a time rotation for 2 vs. 2 and 3 vs. 3.

When you attack another player unless in a duel, or have a TEF, or (Temp. Enemy Flag), which means that everyone can attack you without getting a TEF.

Ezikeil · April 2004

Kinda like Lineage 2.

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Flying750 · April 2004

PvP should be unlike anything players have seen before. There should be great consequences for senselessly committing crimes. Players as well as NPCs should be able to report a crime and the offender will find himself on a wanted poster with a bounty for his capture or death. Once a character is branded a criminal, anyone can legally sign-up to hunt him down without retribution. Criminals with long histories should be transported to a prison where these voracious killers can exist. There they must serve out there term away from society where they can no longer wreak their havoc.

"TIME TO KICK ASS AND CHEW BUBBLE GUM!!!.....BUT I'M ALL OUTTA GUM!!!!!!!!

Mag1ster · April 2004

Whoa a lot of imagination heh

Sound like the Far West to me lol.

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By powergaming in an rpg games you are forgotting the true
essence of the rpg : Role. Playing. Game.

Keii · April 2004

I think I remember Dransik (it's called Ashen Online now, right?) having a system like that. I know there was a jail, and open PK, and city guards who would attack you when your criminal rating when up anyway...

Obiyer · April 2004

Originally posted by Flying750
P...There should be great consequences for senselessly committing crimes. Players as well as NPCs should be able to report a crime and the offender will find himself on a wanted poster with a bounty for his capture or death. Once a character is branded a criminal, anyone can legally sign-up to hunt him down without retribution. Criminals with long histories should be transported to a prison where these voracious killers can exist. There they must serve out there term away from society where they can no longer wreak their havoc....

There are many things wrong with this such as deciding when someone is a criminal etc. Maybe if there where legitimate player run syndicates which operated in legitimate crime, or and if the game suported this. Your suggestion is very rash, maybe it is appropriate if a game had perma-death but they will re spawn or can get their gold back and all they lost is some time, and pride. The guard idea is good but the guards level can't be ridiculously high, they should reflect the area. PC's have to be special, the npc's can be the normal people. Jail is a good idea, and maybe there can be a system in which people can break out of jail with the help of guild mates etc. It's easy to make 'good' aligned characters enjoyable, but there should be a place for pkers too. Perhaps make a town just for thieves/murderers, or they have the ability to form/join syndicates?

Deterrents are a necessity if the developers do not want a highly skilled player killing a random newbie. Perhaps make the highly skilled player too busy to waste their time on lowbies/newbies, if the skilled player is bored enough to simply go around and start massacring in groves then its the developers fault for not entertaining the player. Or if it is a roleplay element then so be it. Third generation MMORPG developers need to have their games based on mental fortitude rather than time sinks, without mimicking what WoW is doing

-Obiyer

Stereoviewer · April 2004

Read about PvP in Dragon Empires. Awesome!

Falcon213 · April 2004

Open PvP is essential to any game without Nation vs. Nation type PvP, but regulating it Lineage 2-style is the worst. Lineage 2 makes killing lowbies near unconsequential, while if you kill someone near your own level, you almost certainly will forfeit your hard-earned items.

The best open PvP system I've come across so far is the bounty system. If you kill another player, your bounty will be raised mostly by an amount based on level difference. Also, you may still gain bounty depending on the target's bounty and your level (for instance, a 40th level would gain a large portion of they bounty they would normally get for killing someone with a bounty of 100 gold, while if they killed someone with a bounty of 1 million gold, they're own bounty would not increase). This system is also exellent for roleplay. for example, someone who decides to go all-out on a tradeskill and becomes wealthy from it will likely not be able to kill a player-enemy who is high leveled. In most games, it would be difficult to find a mercenary, and even more difficult to be trusting of each other. With this system, the merchant simply posts their bounty (they money is put in safe-keeping in the bounty office vault), a mercenary sees the bounty, kills the offender, takes their head to the nearest bounty office, and claims their reward.

Vassago · April 2004

I'll not assume to know the best way to integrate PvP, but I can say that trial and error is the only way to find out for sure. Setting parameters on humans and hoping it works out is a tough problem. The bounty system sounds fun, I'd play a game with that in it.

Keep in mind though that any amount of retribution that might befall someone's digital avatar might not even bother the person playing. Some people might just be having fun for the last two weeks before they move onto a different MMORPG and go around randomly killing anyone regardless of the consequences. In that case, the bounty system would be a way to enact revenge upon them, but would most likely not stop them from mindlessly killing after respawning. In the case where extremely proficient PvPers all have that same mindset and only play to kill are working together and wiping out hunting parties, it's very difficult for other PC's to kill them. Even then, dying won't stop them since they don't care about the penalties, no matter how drastic they are.

So I guess the answer lies somewhere in the limited PvP style ala DaoC. Dark Age is a little too limited for what a true PvP game needs IMHO, so a more open style would be more fun, similar to what I've read about in Dragon Empires.

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Genetics loads the gun; lifestyle pulls the trigger.

numatic · April 2004

Personally, i think DAoC had one of the best PvP systems. Lvl in safety, and go PvP when you want. Lets face it, some of us only have an hour or 2 a day to play, and we dont want that time spent being pkd over and over. No matter how many people say they like full on hardcore PvP, the majority willl disagree. I see it in every game.

The only problem with DAoC PvP, was that there was no point to it. After you hit 50, the only thing to do was PvP non stop which got repetative after awhile.

Meip · April 2004

Yea I liked the RvR aka DAOC PvP. I've yet to see another game with this sort of PvP. But alas like it have been said after lvl 50 it becomes sorta boring. Ok you had to earn few Realm point and such to get new abilities but thats it. Future MMOs need some sort of new content for PvP after reaching lvl cap. And focusing on either PvP or PvE.

I liked as well the UO faction system where you had to protect your castle when you had sigils or raid another to take theirs. You could setup traps with your earned silver coins or buy some special gear and items.

And one last thing there will be always greifers in others MMOs (ie. Lineage 2). So new games have to figure how to build the "Perfect" PvP system witch is not an easy task.

Vassago · April 2004

I think one of the reasons that DaoC became boring after level 50 is that there wasn't a good enough ratio of risk/reward. Risk/reward is a touchy subject in it's own right, but it's necessary to keep the gameplay exciting. In some games, the risk of killing people or going to war is that they might come burn down your city (Shadowbane). That's a pretty big risk along with the fact that you lose anything in your inventory. Maybe a mixture of RvR and Shadowbane(sorry for using this game as an example, many people hate it... though it serves a purpose as an example).

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Genetics loads the gun; lifestyle pulls the trigger.

Viridia · April 2004

I like the idea of a bounty system, but there does need to be more than that to really deter PKers, A mud I used to play had a nice touch that when you killed someone you could behead them and stick their head on a stake somewhere around the game. This certainly gave a warm glow to the newbies who could pass a PKers head on a stake at a major crossroads and laugh.

However one possible extension, (which I must admit would probably not work) Would be that maybe the PKer would have to live as a ghost till a friend or guildmate took the head of the aforementioned spike. That might deter people from going out of their way to annoy absolutely everyone, or at least force them to pay for two accounts.

The main problem that I can see with this is that with the number of griefers out there most places would get pretty crowded with all the stakes, but I could live with that

Falcon213 · April 2004

I was just mentioning that this was probably the best "open" pvp system I've come across, so far, as I would definately vouch for Nation vs. Nation pvp being my favorite. There were a couple problems with DaoC though IMO. For one, nothing to do with the pvp, but when you have such an awkward control system like DaoC (and most other "first generation" MMOs), it's tough to continue to want to play a game very long. The other thing is that the pvp zones were based on level. This may seem OK for balance, but I would definately prefer zones where nearly everyone could enter and brawl it out.

Azzazzimon · April 2004

IMO PvP is done right if it isn't forced on anyone.

PvP should have a reward that is so good so you want to PvP to gain it, but not so good so you are forced to get it to have any chance in PvM.

Best IMO is if the reward is guildwise and not personal, it make guilds want to fight together and help eachother out and even those that doesn't really like PvP (or play a profession that not good in 1v1 pvp) want to try to help out.

A game should also have a dueling option, without any gain or loss if you win/lose so you can practise with friends for fun without having to think about who win/lose.

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Azzazzimon

Oakstead · April 2004

The game that promises to do PvP right is "Dark and Light" and here is why:

PvP battles can occur anywhere at anyscale with no lag due to dynamic loading on a cluster server (one big world for the game) - This is a first for a seamless MMOG. The developers (Farlan entertainment) tried to develop this technology themselves but apparently were not completely successful so they recently licensed a new proven game engine from BigWorld technologies ([url]http:www.bigworldtech.com[/url]) that can do this. This is probably why the game has been delayed and no release date set.

PvPers are not branded as evil - This is because PvP takes place in a realm vs. realm context. Each side (the Dark, and the Light) will fight for resources and territory but charactersof the same alignment cannot attack each other. Each alignment's territory is defined by the influence of its mana fountains since the opposite alignment character's will be severely nerfed if under the influence of his enemy's mana.

PvP is expected only in certain places - If your character is in unclaimed land or near the border you can expect PvP. If you do not want to do PvP then stay deep within your alignment's territory and help feed resources to the mana fountains to keep that territory.

All levels can participate in PvP from the start - The game has 10 kingdoms of increasing difficulty. If a high level player comes down to a low level kingdom to do some easy PKing he risks being attacked by the low level player's god (assuming that low level player has taken care to keep his god faction up).

PvP with a purpose - Clans will carve out and settle their own regions within the broader alignments in order to claim rich resource area and vital trade chokepoints. The kingdom political organization is feudal. The game has a player based economy to give motivation to the fighting. Clans may tax the economy within their region of control to keep their fighters well supplied.

Intigrated PvP roleplay - Players cannot avoid the roleplay of the Dark vs Light factions. While a player may have several characters the devs have promised to make changing between Dark and Light characters almost impossible. In additions the clans can specialize and get bonuses for crafting, exploration, and fighting. Since certain races also have bonuses in these areas these specialized clan will tend to be populated by certain races. In most PvP games the demands of clan power subordinate the roleplay of the games backstory but that does not seem to be the case here.

Fighting experience points for PvP - If your character wins a fight you gain fighting experience just as if you had beaten an NPC character. You also get some gold from the losing player (but no items).

No grind (hopefully) - Players can automate bringing resources into town via NPC caravans (just make sure that trade route is safe from raids from the opposite alignment). Probably one can even automate the mining process. As mentioned fighting experience comes from both PvP and PvE fights. Social experience comes from other activities such as filling mana fountains and crafting. MOBs will drop loot that can be sold on a central market. (MOBs are not supposed to drop finished items though since that would ruin the player based economy and thus take away motivation for fighting). But NPC merchants will exist if players don't keep the markets stocked.

Phrozt · April 2004

You wonder how PvP is done right?? Take a look at Asheron's Call. I know the graphics suck, and the lag can get bad at times, but basically you have a bunch of characters ranging from the lower 70s to 200+ that have an equal chance (kind of) of killing each other.

It was even better when you could runcast, because that SERIOUSLY took skill. The reason I say AC did it right, is becaue there is no light or dark.. it's based purely off of guilds and friendships. Some people in your guild might not kill those of another guild because they are freinds.. and that's how it works. It's basically FFA, but the more you organize it, the better results you will have... the more skill you have, the better people will know you. On Darktide on AC, the only way you will be noticed is by your PK skill, and THAT is how pk is "done right"

Anofalye · April 2004

Well...

You all seem to forget 1 aspect...

To be done right, the PvP aspect must not be enforced on every player, and folks that dont intend to PvP should have absolutely no reason to go in the PvP area. There is no gain to enforce PvP on anyone, and if someone care only about PvP, that person will remain in PvP areas and should have no PvP motivation to exit it, if that person care about non-PvP stuff, then they have to abide to non-PvP rules in the non-PvP areas no matter how much they dislike that and wish to abuse others.

In RL the only reason non-PvP *zones* expend that much is that we care, as a society to make it so, and dont say folks can PvP anywhere LOL, there is so many measure and laws and enforcers...now in a limited game, you cant have all those measure that bring down the PvP abusers easily, thereby why it is easier to just prevent it and focus on what the non-PvP players care for, the game itself, not on how to contain PvP outside of PvP areas. It is a matter of Logic VS fun, of course logic would say to work on those barriers to limit PvP, but fun make us play game with clerics, elfs and dragons, and fun also say to just forbid PvP in some zones and work on the game itself since the devs ressources are limited no matter how bad we want it otherwise.

I know, it would be better if the game would allow a player to attack another player and then go in jail and get a depleted toon from jail raping(like the negative levels in the new D&D rules), but that is to much work for the little fun it bring, so enforcing PvP in the non-PvP zones is not something the best PvP games should focus to much on. Now, there is no reason someone could earn PvP edges outside of PvP zones but very trivial stuff, and for some reasons games no work that way, which is lame to see a carebear come and rule because he earn tons of non-PvP stuff and then go in the PvP area for the first time...

- "Coercing? No no, I assure you, they are willing to bring my bags and pay public transportation just to help me, it is true!''

Phrozt · April 2004

I highly disagree with that. If you don't want to pvp, don't play the game, or don't play the server. I understand people just want to level, or just want to quest, but that is part of what an all-PvP based server is all about... you have to FIGHT for your places to hunt, or go somewhere else.. which, I'm sorry, but that is how RL is. Do you think that in RL you coudl just go party at whatever club you wanted to in any city you wanted to if you were a bum off the street? No.. you would have to confront them and get in your own way, or go somewhere else... this "transaction" is replicated in an all-PvP server via PvP.

I'm sorry, but if you don't like pvp, you're a O.o and need to go somewhere else. The only thing I DONT like about RYL (the game I'm playing now) is that it's not an all-PvP game.. I also play Asheron's Call on the server Darktide, which IS all pvp.. and I can tell you that made the game 5000 times more fun. Why do you think it's rated #1 on this site?

To cut to the chase, all-PvP servers invoke one thing that ***NO GAME DEVELOPER CAN CREATE ON THEIR OWN: dynamic politics. Politics that change due to guilds formed based on pvp skills.. Politics that determines what group has access to what. Politics that determine what ends people work for. Through guild structure and all-PvP, Darktide is the most political server Asheron's Call has to offer, which is why AC is rated as high as it is.

Phrozt - level 128 Battle Mage on Asheron's call DT
Aros de Phrozt - level 57 Bow
Dio dell'ascia - TANK axe
Lo Lo told you, You are play PK is Pig

++ Now playing Risk Your Life

Anofalye · April 2004

Well...

If you make PvP servers and non-PvP servers only instead of making PvP zones and non-PvP zones like I suggest you have the following consequences: (and each zones have they own game system that are not compatibles, so 2 games)

- A world with only hard seasoned, bloodthirsty, maniac killers, PvP players.

And

- A world of pink, love bearing, singing about the peace of the lord.

Both worlds are doomed to a miserable failure exactly like in-breeding thin the blood to a point where it is insane. A world, to be complete, gain from having both aspects, no?

Like it or not, PvP players want to be able to go take a break in a pink garden with non-PvP players and see how lames they all are surrounded by the tons of levels to much gay paladins in pink armor that prevent any thought of PvP! Carebears love to go once in a while and come back running and see how savage the outside world is.

Dividing like now is possible althought.

It is a mistake.

A PvP player should not have to change server in order to take a break from the PvP aspect, just zone to another continent or something.

Anyway,

I dont mind a life alone on a pink server far away from all the PvP, but the option to zone in a PvP zone and be a level 1 there(like PvP players are level 1 when they come to non-PvP zones) is just an addition.

Why completely prevent each side to see each other? Just an OPINION althought. Developping a zone and then flagging it PvP on a server and flagging it Non-PvP on another usually dont work well, it was design for 1 way, not both. Why 100% prevent someone from jumping from 1 time to another to the other world. Have no fear, zoning and been level 1 and in a dangerous world is not appealing to me, yet, who know, maybe I would give it a try after been KS 10 times in a row or whatever, just to learn that KS is not that bad even if only that.

- "Coercing? No no, I assure you, they are willing to bring my bags and pay public transportation just to help me, it is true!''

Wardrop · April 2004

no limits, i mean dead men dont talk.

how do you know i killed someone, 30 min away near a rock behind a waterfall.

nobody.

it should have a strong foundation.

UO had faction, 9 stones 9 towns war 24hours a day. defending and assulting. 3 days rest one each stone, and they can be stolen before they setup after 24 hours. making it action packed all the time day or night.

seems games as of late like to make everything organised. well not everything organised, especially in pvping.

everyone wants to place lables on things.

player V's player, is me against you, your not ready you say?

to bad. i dont care it aint my problem.

thanks for the gold.

be ready next time. and bring a fatter purse.

dont like pvpers then post a reward for me. ill read about it as i walk into town.

why should the guards care, if i havent done anything in town.

ahh there sold your sword and shield. now i can buy some desent daggers.

so i can be ready the next time a bounty is placed and i am on the run.

Note* if you place bounties they should be taking straight from your bank account at the time of making one. with that , bountyhunters know thier going to make a profit. and ther system means something.

No limits.

Phrozt · April 2004

can you try that in english now?

i didnt understand a word that you said... ??

Phrozt - level 128 Battle Mage on Asheron's call DT
Aros de Phrozt - level 57 Bow
Dio dell'ascia - TANK axe
Lo Lo told you, You are play PK is Pig

++ Now playing Risk Your Life

GEOHDE · April 2004

i think there should be A place to get the best exp ingame.. but it also has pvp.. and other then that A dueling system where both members would have to say yes to the fight..and a big open space where guilds/teams can hold there own battles i love pvp..in my mind its the best part of playing mmorpg's

Killer 100%
Achiever 53%
Explorer 33%
Socializer 13%
sounds about right... with my passion for killing and my hate for people

GEOHDE · April 2004

I think helbreath has the best PvP system.. they hold huge wars!.. two towns fighting one another .. half the town go's the the middlelands * common traning place for boths towns*.. to fight and take mana collecters so they can bomb the others buildings .. and half the town staysin town blocking the buildings mana shields from attackers..once the mana shields are gone the buildings are open to the main attack of the mana collecters...and there are the other smaller fights trying to take over the others towns bas camp.. setting up cannon's and other weapons.. setting lose your town gaurds..and the best part ... killing others player .. you get one point for every player you kill and when you get enuff point you can spend them and get Hero armor sporting your towns color..... all and all very fun game.. cuz its all about pvp.. so if you like/love pvp you gotta try this game out.. sorry kind off topic here

Killer 100%
Achiever 53%
Explorer 33%
Socializer 13%
sounds about right... with my passion for killing and my hate for people

Phrozt · April 2004

ooo that sounds rather interesting

.. got a link?

Phrozt - level 128 Battle Mage on Asheron's call DT
Aros de Phrozt - level 57 Bow
Dio dell'ascia - TANK axe
Lo Lo told you, You are play PK is Pig

++ Now playing Risk Your Life

Falcon213 · April 2004

My general ideals on PvP seem to have been reflected well in this thread. Things that have been mentioned include:
- Open Nation vs. Nation combat (or RvR as DAoC fans call it).
- PvP not being solely based on level, rather requiring some skill.
- The ability to avoid PvP somewhat if one would be so inclined.
These are some of the ideas, along with many others that define the MMORPG game I am currently developing privately. In other words, it seems as if we are on the right track. ::::20::

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