Monasax its just a game but its 8 million ( so they say ) strong.
Of course people are going to blame something mainstream for the way their child acts. To do other wise would show some responsibility on the parents part.
But my politics are being determined by my race. Who is to say that all Orcs hate Night Elves (aka asian girls).
That's just the way they set it up, really. Because I see the cooperation between races of different factions at the higher levels of the game, I don't really see it as "racist", although the way the factions are organized is "racial". I mean, that's kind of a baseline design of the game -- races have their own capitals and the like, and there is lore about why the races that cooperate with each other do so -- based on history and lore and not racism.
And certainly not all NEs hate Orcs or vice-versa. I've been on RP "Peace Walks" through Ashenvale Forest with characters from all races who felt like RPing as Peaceniks. The game is what you make of it.
First up, I'm not upset. I just like to think about things and this is one thing I thought was worth posting, if nothing less than to while away the time.
Second, I'm not saying that playing WoW means you ARE a racist.
I'll I'm saying is that the game itself takes away a player's freedom of choice once he chooses his race. Once that happens, your politics are chosen for you and you are encouraged to combat those from an opposing faction.
The arguement no one has made yet (and I was hoping to hear) was that the player chooses his politics when he chooses his race, therefore choice was still a factor.
But race is still determining a character's values and his politics.
I have been concerned about this for a LONG time in video games. Race always had a factor in good and evil and it often pisses me off (if the story don't folly good reasons to why). Even when on either side, they are not necessarly evil. There are too many games incorperating racial issues. Yeah I can't say WoW is the only game out there doing this. Now when it comes to the Warcraft saga, there was times and are still times when Orcs and Humans reside together, yet the MMORPG WoW obviously is missing that factor. The World of Warcraft timeline is not all that on track with the actual story. If you want the actual facts, play the RTS Warcraft games.
Sure it's a game, but games DO change most people and I know that is what the author poster is getting at.
At first glance I always figured that its no big deal the way they turn players against each other...
But if you have ever played WoW, its just ridiculous. People ACTUALLY THINK that the enemy faction are all foolish, that something is actually wrong with them, that they are actually less mature or less able than their own faction. This is one of the biggest reasons why I had trouble enjoying WoW. Just the way people behave concerning the opposing faction, its terrible.
Players are always saying how the enemy faction are dishonorable and lame for ganking, teaming up on them, ect... Then those same players turn around and do it to them! If you ask them why they gank the enemy, they are just like 'oh its only bad when they gank us, its okay to do it to them because they are jerks'... It is really frustrating.
I think it steams mainly from the lack of communication.... They dont let horde and alliance chat at all, and it just makes people act less honorably. Its like the internetx2: People know they can get away with bad things online so they are more likely to do those bad things... Well in WoW, no one can get mad at you for behaving rudely/dishonorably because whenever they type something to you it comes out as gibberish.
So does this teach kids racism? Well, I dont think it necessarily teaches them racism. It does encourage them to hate others though, and teaches them that its okay to treat others however you please as long as youre more powerful than them... Not exactly the greatest lessons. I think if factions could communicate people would treat each other with a bit more dignity.
In the infamous SWG, a player chose what ever race he wanted...then he chose which faction he wanted to belong to. I liked that.
It meant you didn't just kill someone because he was a Rodian. You actually had to know which side he was on. You were allowed to hate the character for who he was, not what he was.
If you're an elf and you're walking through a PvP zone and see an orc, do you ask the orc what his politics are before you kill him? Do you care about his politics? No, because all orcs are the enemy.
Okay, so it's a bit inconceivable that playing WoW will turn you into a skinhead. But if you look at the gameplay mechanics, there is definately racism there. Orcs, Trolls, Undead, and Tauren are evil if you're with the Alliance. Humans, Dwarves, Elves, and Gnomes are evil if you're with the Horde. Good and evil is being determined by race, not by values. You have to admit that's pretty racist. I don't even have the option of playing an Orc that agrees with and supports the alliance's aims. If I did I would be a "traitor to the species" (sound familiar?). Of course, if WoW did let species intermingle they might just end up with World of Peacecraft.
orcs, trolls, undead, tauren and Blood Elves are not all the same race. In fact, they come from a a variety of different background, each with a unique backstory that tells why they are aligned with the Horde.
humans, dwarves, elves, gnomes and Draenei are likewise a diverse coalition of races banded together both for common goals and self-interest.
These alliances are not racially based, if anything they are political alliances. Think NATO vs. Warsaw Pact... Think Axis vs. Allies...
There are also complex political relationships at play between the Horde and Alliance when confronted with mutual enemies like the Scourge, Burning Crusade and other malcontents.
Saying that it's a matter of race is an over-simplification of a dynamic and complex political arrangement.
At first glance I always figured that its no big deal the way they turn players against each other... But if you have ever played WoW, its just ridiculous. People ACTUALLY THINK that the enemy faction are all foolish, that something is actually wrong with them, that they are actually less mature or less able than their own faction. This is one of the biggest reasons why I had trouble enjoying WoW. Just the way people behave concerning the opposing faction, its terrible. Players are always saying how the enemy faction are dishonorable and lame for ganking, teaming up on them, ect... Then those same players turn around and do it to them! If you ask them why they gank the enemy, they are just like 'oh its only bad when they gank us, its okay to do it to them because they are jerks'... It is really frustrating. I think it steams mainly from the lack of communication.... They dont let horde and alliance chat at all, and it just makes people act less honorably. Its like the internetx2: People know they can get away with bad things online so they are more likely to do those bad things... Well in WoW, no one can get mad at you for behaving rudely/dishonorably because whenever they type something to you it comes out as gibberish. So does this teach kids racism? Well, I dont think it necessarily teaches them racism. It does encourage them to hate others though, and teaches them that its okay to treat others however you please as long as youre more powerful than them... Not exactly the greatest lessons. I think if factions could communicate people would treat each other with a bit more dignity.
Yeah a lot of people behave stupidly, I agree.
There are ways to communicate between factions using emotes, however. And I've also had quite a few good experiences, for example, helping others of the other faction (and vice versa) in hard kills. I remember well when a group of Horde helped us bring down the Princess in Arathi Highlands -- must have been January or February 2005 or so -- just by piling onto the kills, and how they cheered when she died. Some people *do* know how to treat other players, regardless of faction.
In the infamous SWG, a player chose what ever race he wanted...then he chose which faction he wanted to belong to. I liked that. It meant you didn't just kill someone because he was a Rodian. You actually had to know which side he was on. You were allowed to hate the character for who he was, not what he was. If you're an elf and you're walking through a PvP zone and see an orc, do you ask the orc what his politics are before you kill him? Do you care about his politics? No, because all orcs are the enemy.
What if you're a night elf walking through a pvp zone and see a blood elf. Yes, the way pvp is set up you CAN attack and possibly kill them, but the decision to do it is up to YOU. Just because you CAN do something doesn't mean you HAVE to, or should...
Who cares if it teaches racism? It's a GAME. Racism is here to stay. You can't stop it. Sure, you can say that countries like Canada are more tolerant than some others (like Russia ), but it exists in all of us to some extent. Btw, I live in Toronto, proudly proclaimed as the most multicultural city in the world, and a looot of people are racist here.
Though I can't say I'm more racist because of WoW lol, I admit, some immature kids COULD get the idea of their race in WoW being better or cooler than another and transposing that idea into RL with the understanding/pride of their RL race being better than others.
Lol, sadly, I don't see what the fuss about asian girls is. German/Russian girls PST!
Also, for the ignorant, Russians are Europeans, and only the uncivilized Russians who live in their shitty Soviet-built cities hate Europeans, and that is because of their wealth and culture. The ones in say, Moscow or St. Petersburg or other cultural, pre-Communist cities do not, cuz they're the same really, lol.
Nor do Europeans hate Russians. We provide 33% of their natural gas, and can nuke them to shreds if they say otherwise .
These alliances are not racially based, if anything they are political alliances. Think NATO vs. Warsaw Pact... Think Axis vs. Allies...
There are also complex political relationships at play between the Horde and Alliance when confronted with mutual enemies like the Scourge, Burning Crusade and other malcontents.
Saying that it's a matter of race is an over-simplification of a dynamic and complex political arrangement.
The alliances are racially based. If not, then Orcs could be alliance and gnomes could be Horde.
I am fully aware of the backstory to WoW, and the political differences involved. However, those politics are still based on the race the player chooses (not racism as a foundation). Which is the point I've been trying to make.
Yes there is a dynamic and complex political arrangement, but I'm not the one who over-simplified it. That was the game designers fault when they said "all orcs are horde, all humans are alliance". In every sense, it was that over-simplification that became the root of the problem.
As for your analogy to Nato vs Warsaw Pact- If the real world was like WoW, then all Russians would be a member of Warsaw Pact. But that isn't true, as many russians defected to the US and vice versa. Races changed sides because they chose to. That's a choice that WoW does not offer.
Originally posted by Vinzent Races changed sides because they chose to. That's a choice that WoW does not offer.
I actually think this would be a neat feature to add if it were done like EQ2 did it: let people "defect" if they want to, but make it hard on them to prevent *too* many from doing it and creating imbalances as a result.
I'm seriously done with this racism subject, I keep seeing people discussing that type of stuff and it just doesn't make any sense.
Saying that a two-factions race-based game teaches racism is the same as saying that pvp enforces a murderous behavior.
The first time someone complained about in-game racism to me was on FFXI when an elvan bm wanted to join my party and I said sorry but I'm going to wait a little longer and see if I can find a taru taru BM, and he kept calling me racist for the whole day, and even tried to give me "life lesson" or something like that.
Games are games, lives are lives, period.
If someone plays Diablo and then starts doing satanic rituals and tries to kill someone then it's the guy's fault, not the game's.
When I was younger I had two friends who played D&D and Vampire: The Mask with me, but both of them started to develop double personality behaviors (they left school after a certain point), three months later they raped a girl and killed her in the middle of a game (this happened in the city of Teresopolis, in Brazil, the case was called something like O Crime dos Garotos de Preto: The Crime of the Boys in Black, since most Rplayers of this town weared black clothes). It was their fault that they started playing Vampire 15 hours per day, not the game's fault, if a person gets influencied by a game, that's just the person's fault not to keep in mind that it's just a game (same happens with movies sometimes).
Ultima Online 98~04 Dark Age of Camelot 03~07 Final Fantasy XI 04~06 Guild Wars 05~08 World of Warcraft 04~05 Unsuccessful Tries: DFO/EQ2/DRaja/Rag/Req/RYL/9D/Cabal/KO/PSU/RF/GE/TO/TR/DDO/EVE/LoTRO/L2/RZ/SWG/VG
The idea of being able to change sides would be interesting in WoW. It might serve to address the imbalances often found between Horde and Alliance numbers on the various servers. I think what would be more in tune with the WoW universe would be if factional control of certain territories or landmarks could sway a particular "race", say the Blood Elves, from the Horde to the Alliance. Or make each playbe race its own faction, and make the entire WoW map conquerable in factional warfare. If Alliance forces capture and hold silvermoon city, then the Blood Elves join the Alliance and likewise if the Horde sacks Stormwind. This could result in the ultimate goal of global conquest for either horde or alliance through territorial conquest and subjugation of the various vying factions. So instead of Horde vs. Alliance you could have a Human-Undead-Blood Elf - dwarf coalition vs. an Orc-Tauren-Troll-Draenei-gnome coaltion. Well, you probably couldn't split the dwarves-gnomes, unless Ironforge becomes a civil war zone, kinda like the Gaza Strip or Beiruit...
Allowing a player to switch factions regardless of Race would solve the issue. Perhaps the character might have to take a quest to "prove" he is willing to switch sides. After all, so many years of bad blood...
I'd also like to see two more factions. A true nuetral faction like the goblins and a lawless faction (Bloodsails) that counts as an enemy to both the Horde and the Alliance.
I think all this talk of racism because of Alliance v. Horde is a bunch of bull. Ever since the first fantasy video game Orcs have been bad and elves have been good, and humans have been both. Why disrupt the balance?
What I think would be cool was if there was a neutral side added to all the good v. evil games. I don't know if anyone else but me has read the Dragonlance series. But if you have, you would know that there are 3 orders of magic in the series. There is the order of white robes, which practice good magic and worship the good god. There is the order of the red robes, which practices neutral magic and worships the neutral god, and there is the order of the black robes which practices evil magic and worships the evil god. I would like to see something like this in WoW or a WoW like game. They should create a neutral alliance as well as good and evil and some new races and classes to go along with it. I would guess all the human type characters would go in it. Anyone else thinks this is a cool idea?
WoW is letting people play against each other,and giving people the ability to pick a race of their liking, split up in two teams. it doesn't teach racism, in fact, it doesn't teach children anything.
Comments
Of course people are going to blame something mainstream for the way their child acts. To do other wise would show some responsibility on the parents part.
We cant have that.
looool !
Yeah Right ! :P
topic Closed ^^
That's just the way they set it up, really. Because I see the cooperation between races of different factions at the higher levels of the game, I don't really see it as "racist", although the way the factions are organized is "racial". I mean, that's kind of a baseline design of the game -- races have their own capitals and the like, and there is lore about why the races that cooperate with each other do so -- based on history and lore and not racism.
And certainly not all NEs hate Orcs or vice-versa. I've been on RP "Peace Walks" through Ashenvale Forest with characters from all races who felt like RPing as Peaceniks. The game is what you make of it.
First up, I'm not upset. I just like to think about things and this is one thing I thought was worth posting, if nothing less than to while away the time.
Second, I'm not saying that playing WoW means you ARE a racist.
I'll I'm saying is that the game itself takes away a player's freedom of choice once he chooses his race. Once that happens, your politics are chosen for you and you are encouraged to combat those from an opposing faction.
The arguement no one has made yet (and I was hoping to hear) was that the player chooses his politics when he chooses his race, therefore choice was still a factor.
But race is still determining a character's values and his politics.
BTW, I play both Horde and Alliance.
Which Final Fantasy Character Are You?
Final Fantasy 7
Sure it's a game, but games DO change most people and I know that is what the author poster is getting at.
-In memory of Laura "Taera" Genender. Passed away on Aug/13/08-
|
RISING DRAGOON ~AION US ONLINE LEGION for Elyos
Or the senseless violence against our woodland creaters.
Differences exist in both real life and video games. To even assume/ imply different shows ignorance.
At first glance I always figured that its no big deal the way they turn players against each other...
But if you have ever played WoW, its just ridiculous. People ACTUALLY THINK that the enemy faction are all foolish, that something is actually wrong with them, that they are actually less mature or less able than their own faction. This is one of the biggest reasons why I had trouble enjoying WoW. Just the way people behave concerning the opposing faction, its terrible.
Players are always saying how the enemy faction are dishonorable and lame for ganking, teaming up on them, ect... Then those same players turn around and do it to them! If you ask them why they gank the enemy, they are just like 'oh its only bad when they gank us, its okay to do it to them because they are jerks'...
It is really frustrating.
I think it steams mainly from the lack of communication.... They dont let horde and alliance chat at all, and it just makes people act less honorably. Its like the internetx2: People know they can get away with bad things online so they are more likely to do those bad things... Well in WoW, no one can get mad at you for behaving rudely/dishonorably because whenever they type something to you it comes out as gibberish.
So does this teach kids racism? Well, I dont think it necessarily teaches them racism. It does encourage them to hate others though, and teaches them that its okay to treat others however you please as long as youre more powerful than them... Not exactly the greatest lessons. I think if factions could communicate people would treat each other with a bit more dignity.
Play as your fav retro characters: cnd-online.net. My site: www.lysle.net. Blog: creatingaworld.blogspot.com.
In the infamous SWG, a player chose what ever race he wanted...then he chose which faction he wanted to belong to. I liked that.
It meant you didn't just kill someone because he was a Rodian. You actually had to know which side he was on. You were allowed to hate the character for who he was, not what he was.
If you're an elf and you're walking through a PvP zone and see an orc, do you ask the orc what his politics are before you kill him? Do you care about his politics? No, because all orcs are the enemy.
Which Final Fantasy Character Are You?
Final Fantasy 7
humans, dwarves, elves, gnomes and Draenei are likewise a diverse coalition of races banded together both for common goals and self-interest.
These alliances are not racially based, if anything they are political alliances. Think NATO vs. Warsaw Pact... Think Axis vs. Allies...
There are also complex political relationships at play between the Horde and Alliance when confronted with mutual enemies like the Scourge, Burning Crusade and other malcontents.
Saying that it's a matter of race is an over-simplification of a dynamic and complex political arrangement.
Yeah a lot of people behave stupidly, I agree.
There are ways to communicate between factions using emotes, however. And I've also had quite a few good experiences, for example, helping others of the other faction (and vice versa) in hard kills. I remember well when a group of Horde helped us bring down the Princess in Arathi Highlands -- must have been January or February 2005 or so -- just by piling onto the kills, and how they cheered when she died. Some people *do* know how to treat other players, regardless of faction.
Though I can't say I'm more racist because of WoW lol, I admit, some immature kids COULD get the idea of their race in WoW being better or cooler than another and transposing that idea into RL with the understanding/pride of their RL race being better than others.
Lol, sadly, I don't see what the fuss about asian girls is. German/Russian girls PST!
Also, for the ignorant, Russians are Europeans, and only the uncivilized Russians who live in their shitty Soviet-built cities hate Europeans, and that is because of their wealth and culture. The ones in say, Moscow or St. Petersburg or other cultural, pre-Communist cities do not, cuz they're the same really, lol.
Nor do Europeans hate Russians. We provide 33% of their natural gas, and can nuke them to shreds if they say otherwise
Which Final Fantasy Character Are You?
Final Fantasy 7
The alliances are racially based. If not, then Orcs could be alliance and gnomes could be Horde.
I am fully aware of the backstory to WoW, and the political differences involved. However, those politics are still based on the race the player chooses (not racism as a foundation). Which is the point I've been trying to make.
Yes there is a dynamic and complex political arrangement, but I'm not the one who over-simplified it. That was the game designers fault when they said "all orcs are horde, all humans are alliance". In every sense, it was that over-simplification that became the root of the problem.
As for your analogy to Nato vs Warsaw Pact- If the real world was like WoW, then all Russians would be a member of Warsaw Pact. But that isn't true, as many russians defected to the US and vice versa. Races changed sides because they chose to. That's a choice that WoW does not offer.
Which Final Fantasy Character Are You?
Final Fantasy 7
I actually think this would be a neat feature to add if it were done like EQ2 did it: let people "defect" if they want to, but make it hard on them to prevent *too* many from doing it and creating imbalances as a result.
Oh my god..
I'm seriously done with this racism subject, I keep seeing people discussing that type of stuff and it just doesn't make any sense.
Saying that a two-factions race-based game teaches racism is the same as saying that pvp enforces a murderous behavior.
The first time someone complained about in-game racism to me was on FFXI when an elvan bm wanted to join my party and I said sorry but I'm going to wait a little longer and see if I can find a taru taru BM, and he kept calling me racist for the whole day, and even tried to give me "life lesson" or something like that.
Games are games, lives are lives, period.
If someone plays Diablo and then starts doing satanic rituals and tries to kill someone then it's the guy's fault, not the game's.
When I was younger I had two friends who played D&D and Vampire: The Mask with me, but both of them started to develop double personality behaviors (they left school after a certain point), three months later they raped a girl and killed her in the middle of a game (this happened in the city of Teresopolis, in Brazil, the case was called something like O Crime dos Garotos de Preto: The Crime of the Boys in Black, since most Rplayers of this town weared black clothes). It was their fault that they started playing Vampire 15 hours per day, not the game's fault, if a person gets influencied by a game, that's just the person's fault not to keep in mind that it's just a game (same happens with movies sometimes).
Ultima Online 98~04
Dark Age of Camelot 03~07
Final Fantasy XI 04~06
Guild Wars 05~08
World of Warcraft 04~05
Unsuccessful Tries: DFO/EQ2/DRaja/Rag/Req/RYL/9D/Cabal/KO/PSU/RF/GE/TO/TR/DDO/EVE/LoTRO/L2/RZ/SWG/VG
mee loves you loong time
lol!
parents teach racism.
rather than blame a childs behavior on every new trend.. perhaps many should try doing some parenting first.
Allowing a player to switch factions regardless of Race would solve the issue. Perhaps the character might have to take a quest to "prove" he is willing to switch sides. After all, so many years of bad blood...
I'd also like to see two more factions. A true nuetral faction like the goblins and a lawless faction (Bloodsails) that counts as an enemy to both the Horde and the Alliance.
Which Final Fantasy Character Are You?
Final Fantasy 7
I think all this talk of racism because of Alliance v. Horde is a bunch of bull. Ever since the first fantasy video game Orcs have been bad and elves have been good, and humans have been both. Why disrupt the balance?
What I think would be cool was if there was a neutral side added to all the good v. evil games. I don't know if anyone else but me has read the Dragonlance series. But if you have, you would know that there are 3 orders of magic in the series. There is the order of white robes, which practice good magic and worship the good god. There is the order of the red robes, which practices neutral magic and worships the neutral god, and there is the order of the black robes which practices evil magic and worships the evil god. I would like to see something like this in WoW or a WoW like game. They should create a neutral alliance as well as good and evil and some new races and classes to go along with it. I would guess all the human type characters would go in it. Anyone else thinks this is a cool idea?
Oh and yes, I do also like asian girls.
Wow made me racist against humans in general.
Blood and teeth baby!
LMFAO!!!!!