I think many of the people saying how 'uber' discs supposedly are have never played one, and just saw one solo something that they couldn't and immediately assume that the class is broken.
Do I think they were a little overpowered? I'm willing to admit that possibility. Do I think they were the MOST overpowered class and most in need of a nerf? Absolutely not. Do I think any nerfs should have been done this soon? Absolutely not. Do I think nerfs should be more important than fixing the 1000 other severe issues? Etc.
Gaming? That's not gaming! That's just people sat 'round in costumes drinking...
True, but nerfs would never be a problem if the developers used common sense instead of acting like gamers whent they make and play these classes.
In no game that has been released, no classes that we have been playing should be nerfed. these classes should be balanced from reelease. . .the Devs had about 4 years to test the class. . . you mean to tell me that in all they did no one on the dev team could spot that Disciples were doing crazy damage and not using their energy. . .
You would think that, but then you'd have to come to terms with the fact that Rogues are all kinds of gimped. Dread Knights lvl 8 self heal can't be used with out shadow step which is trained at lvl 10, and shadow step teleports you directly behind the mob you target. where the Rogue is supposed to be situated in order to take advantage of their lackluster DPS.
The class sinergy is somewhat off in alot fo cases. The classes don't gel well together.
Right now 70% of the players are rolling the closest thing to an I win solo class and running around trying to hit the lvl cap by soloing.
This isn't going to last. I forsee the nerf bat coming to a class near you.
It seems to me like they are making ham-fisted adjustments to individual classes, instead of taking in the big picture and how the classes should work together in a group environment.
Disciples were hardly a 'god character' I think many of the people saying how 'uber' discs supposedly are have never played one, and just saw one solo something that they couldn't and immediately assume that the class is broken. Do I think they were a little overpowered? I'm willing to admit that possibility.
Do I think they were the MOST overpowered class and most in need of a nerf? Absolutely not.
Do I think any nerfs should have been done this soon? Absolutely not.
Do I think nerfs should be more important than fixing the 1000 other severe issues? Etc.
You gotta give it up. I've played MMOs for over a decade and I've seen so many people that won't let themselves come to the realization that they played a class because it was over-powered and can't seem to grasp the fact that the playing field is somewhat more balanced.
Crying about it isn't going to change it. If you're that unhappy then play another class. Come back to your Disciple later, or just plain unplug and take a break from the game entirely for a day or so.
I have to agree here, that in 4+ years of development they never sat down and talked about class balance. In years of BETA they didn't address this. Now suddenly, 2 weeks in, something's wrong with it just in time to irritate paying customers.
Gaming? That's not gaming! That's just people sat 'round in costumes drinking...
you mean to tell me that in all they did no one on the dev team could spot that Disciples were doing crazy damage and not using their energy. . .
they totally revamed the class about a week before beta ended. before that, they were so bad that about 3 people played them(i was one).
thats why this wasn't addressed in the years before launch..it didn't exist until a week before launch.
they didn't just add something here and there, they totally revamed the class. before then they didn't even use jin.
but anyway, yes i played disciple for longer than about anyone. they were overpowered and if you actualy played one, then played a rogue/war/dk/druid/sorc/bm/bard/monk/ then you would agree, unless you are just mad you are not on ezmode anymore which seems to be the case with some..
disclaimer, i dont think disc were the most overpowered class but they were the 2nd. psis who actualy know how to play, rare as they are, are the most overpowered class.
put it this way, end of beta a lvl 43 5 dot dragon was spawned. a bunch of /lvl'd 35 toons were trying to take it down, got it to 97% once..in about 2 hours. finally i brough my lvl'd 35 psi and the dragon was down to 40% before i died, he regen'd to 100% and didnt get down past 98% again.
I have to agree here, that in 4+ years of development they never sat down and talked about class balance. In years of BETA they didn't address this. Now suddenly, 2 weeks in, something's wrong with it just in time to irritate paying customers.
Very true, but even in beta I saw nerf-dracula coming for the Disciple class, Bards, and Rangers.
The funny thing is... Bards get buffed almost every single patch, Rogues get shafted... every single patch, and I guess they think that Rangers are fine as is.
You know why there are so many Rangers running around in Vanguard?
Simple, the class is overpowered and aloughs people to solo extremely well... too well. I think that it's only a matter of time before they get nerfed as well.
I think that the Bard phenomina will fade too and get the nerf bat, but it's gonna take awhile for the devs to catch on to how people are using the class.
I saw a trio of bards all partied up and I guess they all had their run buffs up and either the buffs stacked or the standard Bard run buff is too fast. Anyway, these little bastards are outrunning people on horseback and they were aggroing 3 dots and leading them around and then running out of aggro range.
I laugh at the people in this post implying that because of this disciple 'balance' that the rest of the classes weren't well thought out. Are you seriously saying that no other MMO nerfs/balances classes throughout the game's history?
The disciple class in Beta was broke they were actually very weak(melee dps) with some decent heals, after their last minute revamp right upon release their dps increased as did their heal power. It had now become just plain overpowered with Disciples soloing 4 dot mobs that were a level or a couple levels above them.
For those of you that rolled Disciples because they were overpowered you may now move on to the next 'overpowered' class for those that enjoy the class because its a very unique class, continue to have fun but you may actually have to take a partner with you to grind.
What do you people expect? most of the people that complain, Knew before buying the game, That it is Far from finished, It was your choice to Pay SOE for another beta/game I am glad I didn't do the same hehe.
I have seen posts elsewhere where disciples... who are open minded and are not going to give up the FoTM because they cant solo 4 dotters.
They are stating, that they actually have to THINK and use tactics when playing. They are saying they are having to use skills that were never used because they used the same attacks and heals because they would just decimate.
SOME classes need to be tweaked to work as intended.
Lets see, DK solo a 4 dotter... nope, BM... nope.. Rogue.. nope.. Warrior... nope.. Pally... maybe probably nope... . etc etc
Yeah I'd be mad if i got "nerfed" but dont be mad because you have to play like alot of other classes, and stop exaggerating saying omg now i can only solo same level 3 dotters like MOST EVERYONE ELSE.
I'm a DK, a TANK and can only solo one +1 level 3 dotter, any more than that and I'm dead. a disciple is a HEALER for F*cks sake not a monk with healing.
Stop whining because your class is now working how the dev's intended... NOT.. how you want it to work. They may tweak it a little in your favor, but they have to start somewhere and do final touches. If you reroll because you now have to play like the rest of us you obviously are an extremely finicky person. And I guarantee if you hadn't started your class before hand and rolled after the changes you wouldent even care, your just used to being an exceptionally powerful damage dealer rather than healing
---------------------- Played (In order of favorite first to least): DAOC, EQ2, EVE, WOW, Vanguard, AC2, City of __, Guild Wars, LOTRO, EQ, Sword of New World, FFXI, Lineage 2, Second Life, DDO, Anarchy Online, RF Online, Archlord, Uru, Ragnarok Online, Shadowbane, Planetside, Auto Assault, Ryzom, Matrix Online, Horizons, Entropia, Sims, Runescape, Lineage 1, AC1, Dungeon Runners
you mean to tell me that in all they did no one on the dev team could spot that Disciples were doing crazy damage and not using their energy. . .
they totally revamed the class about a week before beta ended. before that, they were so bad that about 3 people played them(i was one).
Ahhh yeah, I remember those revamps. . .and I do remember a bunch of "Disciple" lists. . .good point. We cannot forget though, that for all of the time that Disciples were in place and Beta 2 was locked. . .those changes still came in too ham fisted?
Maybe its me, maybe it is harder to make those changes than I know? But 4 years is a looooong time - 3 years is a loooooong time. . . .somebody, screwed up. . .
This is really no surprise, all of the people that I know playing discs said, without question, they were overpowered and were just awaiting the impending nerf. This is also a classic MUD/MMO manuver by the devs, a knee-jerk overnerf (which the overnerf may very well have been intentional) and then they will tweak them from there to bring them in line to where they think they should be. I've seen this happen a million times. Discs are not the only class in need of adjustments, and yes there are plenty of other things that need developer attention, but it was a very high visibility issue. High visibility issues always get the attention first.
What do you people expect? most of the people that complain, Knew before buying the game, That it is Far from finished, It was your choice to Pay SOE for another beta/game I am glad I didn't do the same hehe.
You have no place in here, go back to the Pong forums. . .LOL.
Although, this is standard fare with MMOs, all Developers still need hardcore criticism. . .I wouldnt criticize the Devs for making things right. . .I criticize the devs for making things right so damn late. . .
Whoever developed whatever game, there are still tons of stupid things done, and no developer should not be called out on those stupid things.
This is really no surprise, all of the people that I know playing discs said, without question, they were overpowered and were just awaiting the impending nerf. This is also a classic MUD/MMO manuver by the devs, a knee-jerk overnerf (which the overnerf may very well have been intentional) and then they will tweak them from there to bring them in line to where they think they should be. I've seen this happen a million times. Discs are not the only class in need of adjustments, and yes there are plenty of other things that need developer attention, but it was a very high visibility issue. High visibility issues always get the attention first.
I don't think it's an "over-nerf" at all. Healing classes shouldn't be DPS classes, pure and simple. Just like Tanks shouldn't be able to dish out too much damage, and DPS classes shouldn't be able to tank. If any of the archetypes overlaps into another archetypes sphere it throws the whole game balance off.
Here's why:
Poeple tend to gravitate toward the most over-powered classes they can find. It happens in every single MMO. Poeple get in on the head start and exploit all the bugs and over powered classes they can and then turn around and report the bugs and/or start trying to bring attention to over powered aspects of the class that they've all ready taken full advantage of.
It happened in SWG, it happened in CoH, it happen in WoW.
Not only that, but once people start hitting the lvl cap they start posting that they think lvl is too fast and that they should up exp requirements to lvl, or reduce exp gains, or make the death penalty more strict.
Why? Because they have low self esteem and they use video games as a means for self validation. These are the types of people that help ruin games by taking the fun out of them. These are the types of people that corpse camp you for 30 mins even though you are 20-30 lvls lower than them. The people that try to there damnedest to raise the prices on everything in the games economy to make it harder on starting characters.
I kinda got off on a tanget there, sorry.
Anyway, when people gravitate to the most over powered class, grouping starts becoming harder to do for people that don't have a group that they lvl with on a regular basis, these people become bored and decide to try the over powered FotM and then they get nerfed, which starts the cycle all over again.
Class balancing is something that will always happen. It has happened in every MMO ever made and it will continue to happen. Some will be nerfed and if a person is honest those nerfs are usually correct.
So what you're saying is Disciples sucked, they 'fixed' them before launch, and now they're basically saying "Oops, we made them too powerful" and now they've made them suck worse than they did in the first place.
This is STUPID.
Honestly, I would expect a company that has spent YEARS in development to make more intelligent decisions about their game. We can parallel this with the horse speed increase. The early mounts were increased from 30 to 50, people rejoiced. Then, oops! We did it too much, lets make it 40. And of course people get upset, but they still say "Well its better than it was before." Ok.
The problem is, we draw a line at launch. Anything that happens before launch was 'testing' and the way classes are, at launch, is the way we expect them to be. Anyone not in the beta didn't have that "previous sucky disciple" basis of comparison. We had a unique class, one that required some skill, one that was interesting and not a buttonmash fest like many of the classes in this game are. We solo'd fairly well, but I wouldn't say the best. Then all of a sudden, one week in, while still swimming in a myriad of other bugs and problems with the game, WHAM! You've been nerfed. We're just supposed to say, "Its ok, I'm happy?"
Lets be realistic.
I could care less about being able to solo 4dots. The occasional 3 dot, esp. when you need it for a quest, - okay, fine. But every class I have played has had the ability to do a 3 dot, not just my disc. And for the record, My disc had trouble soloing 4 dots, even 4dots a few levels lower than me, unless I had a TON of outside buffs for example. The disciple has the ability to "outlast" - in that in drawing from jin and both endo and energy pools we can heal for LONGER, but spike damage will still kill us. It is hardly god mode, people. We just have a bit more staying power, but we lack the damage to take the mobs down. Especially now after the crit nerf. And now that our staying power has been nerfed into nonexistence, our ability to heal in teams has been nerfed into non existence, what shall the disciples do? Reroll as monks if you want DPS and clerics if you want to heal, I guess.
Or better yet, give Sigil more money by rolling a monk and dragging an autofollow cleric around behind you, which is where I'm leaning at this point, since the game wants to force me to group when I don't have time to spend hours looking for a team and they don't want anyone to have the capability to do anything by themselves.
I laugh at those who really can't see why people are upset. The game is great, it does have a lot of potential, but this? This is just silly.
It just happens to be Disc this time. When the spinning wheel of Nerf lands on your class, lets see how happy you are about it.
Gaming? That's not gaming! That's just people sat 'round in costumes drinking...
A nerf post-release is nearly always a mistake in a MMORPG.
Game balancing, challenges and everything around that, hold water when it come to the sense of PROGRESSION a player is getting from playing a MMORPG. If you nerf a class, you destroy that sense of progression and make the player feel backward, horrible, like he wastes his time.
Nerfing, post-release, is nearly always a mistake in a MMORPG. The addiction and fun factor doesn't resolve around challenges, but around progression. Before nerfing, a dev should asks himself, is it worth "losing" 10% of the player base from who you remove a toy (I don't say players will quit, I say the dev should consider they would, as this is the worst case scenario)? If the answer is no, then they should reconsider a LOT before nerfing anything, as it will usually be better to work around. Progression pwns game balancing from a RPG-player perspective!
- "If I understand you well, you are telling me until next time. " - Ren
Originally posted by nynniva So what you're saying is Disciples sucked, they 'fixed' them before launch, and now they're basically saying "Oops, we made them too powerful" and now they've made them suck worse than they did in the first place.
no they are still 10x better than they were. the day before the revamp came, a disciple would have a hard time to solo an even lvl 2 dot mob. it would take 5 minutes. if an add came(2 2 dots) you were S.O.L. and no i am not exagerating. this is the only class i ever played where i died on my first fight after creation vs a lvl 1 mob.
I'm a soloer first and foremost, mainly because of my ultra screwy work schedule. So when I tried the Disciple class, I really liked it. Plus I think it has some of the best animations (with a staff weapon, that is).
I've played a Disc to level 11 (almost 12 now), and had no trouble soloing the entire time. I just logged in today to check how bad the nerf was, and I have to say I am surprised. It's pretty severe, and makes Blessed Wind not that great anymore. I could understand reducing the HoT, but increasing the End cost, /and/ increasing the refresh rate? C'mon.
But, I do have to say that I did feel a little overpowered while playing my Disc. I almost /never/ had to use my Heals while fighting even level 2 dot mobs. Maybe if I got an add, okay. Against 3 dots, you bet I had to use my Heals. Was it hard? Not that bad, but as someone said before, spike dmg was always a threat.
Now, I find that Blessed Wind isn't my only attack. Before all I did was the following:
1) Touch of Woe
2) Blessed Wind
3) Soul Cutter
4) If a crit comes up, use Falling Petal
5) Repeat from 2), tossing in a Cyclone Kick if I felt like it
It was pretty easy to solo with a Disciple pre-nerf. My health bar was almost always full. I used a crescent staff too, so Falling Petal rarely came up. I never used Void Hand after I got the level 2 version, cause it's currently bugged. I don't see any numbers, nor does my character animate when I use it. Plus, Soul Cutter is better dmg and uses less Endurance. Both increase Jin by 1.
Now my attacks are more like this:
1) Touch of Woe
2) Blessed Wind
3) Soul Cutter
4) Cyclone Kick (if Jin is half decent)
5) Heal using Lao'Jin Flare, Breath of Renewal, or Astral Wind. (Usually BoR)
6) Repeat from 2), using Falling Petal if a Crit comes up
Not that much different than before, but this time I ... *gasp* ... have to use my Heals. Seems pretty silly how a Healer class could solo before not using their Healing spells all that much.
Suffice to say, I can't see this being that bad for Disciples. Sure we got nerfed. But it sounds like a lot of other classes are gonna take a few hits from the bat too. But we're not completely gimped, at least not from my perspective. Sure it's a bit harder to solo, and you have to be careful of adds and such. But that's the way the game is supposed to be. It kind of felt "too easy" before. Plus, Brad's "vision" has always been about group play, not soloing. I'm sure that in his mind, soloing is something players only want to do if they can't find a group. i.e. Grouping > Soloing. Class balances will follow that line of thinking, and soloability will be put on the back burner. Remember, he's not trying to make WoW 2 here. It's more like EQ 3.
what a shame. Thats not a tweak , thats a total nerf. I can't believe how long it is taking me to solo a same level 2 dot mob now, at the current rate, I'll go from my current level 12 to level 13 in about a year.
Sure, disciples needed a little bit of tweaking, but that was just ridiculous.
Well if they reset the end cost to reasonable levels, then you can build up jin at a reasonable rate and pop your insta a little more often to make up the difference. You will need to use energy-based heals a bit more than before, but this is more along the lines of the type of 'tweak' that I would deem acceptable. However taking the crit nerf AND the heal nerf at the same time is still a lot, but its manageable now at least.
Gaming? That's not gaming! That's just people sat 'round in costumes drinking...
Comments
Disciples were hardly a 'god character'
I think many of the people saying how 'uber' discs supposedly are have never played one, and just saw one solo something that they couldn't and immediately assume that the class is broken.
Do I think they were a little overpowered? I'm willing to admit that possibility.
Do I think they were the MOST overpowered class and most in need of a nerf? Absolutely not.
Do I think any nerfs should have been done this soon? Absolutely not.
Do I think nerfs should be more important than fixing the 1000 other severe issues? Etc.
Gaming? That's not gaming!
That's just people sat 'round in costumes drinking...
True, but nerfs would never be a problem if the developers used common sense instead of acting like gamers whent they make and play these classes.
In no game that has been released, no classes that we have been playing should be nerfed. these classes should be balanced from reelease. . .the Devs had about 4 years to test the class. . . you mean to tell me that in all they did no one on the dev team could spot that Disciples were doing crazy damage and not using their energy. . .
You would think that, but then you'd have to come to terms with the fact that Rogues are all kinds of gimped. Dread Knights lvl 8 self heal can't be used with out shadow step which is trained at lvl 10, and shadow step teleports you directly behind the mob you target. where the Rogue is supposed to be situated in order to take advantage of their lackluster DPS.
The class sinergy is somewhat off in alot fo cases. The classes don't gel well together.
Right now 70% of the players are rolling the closest thing to an I win solo class and running around trying to hit the lvl cap by soloing.
This isn't going to last. I forsee the nerf bat coming to a class near you.
It seems to me like they are making ham-fisted adjustments to individual classes, instead of taking in the big picture and how the classes should work together in a group environment.
You gotta give it up. I've played MMOs for over a decade and I've seen so many people that won't let themselves come to the realization that they played a class because it was over-powered and can't seem to grasp the fact that the playing field is somewhat more balanced.
Crying about it isn't going to change it. If you're that unhappy then play another class. Come back to your Disciple later, or just plain unplug and take a break from the game entirely for a day or so.
I swear it'll work wonders for you.
I swear it's like SWG all over again. LOL
I have to agree here, that in 4+ years of development they never sat down and talked about class balance. In years of BETA they didn't address this. Now suddenly, 2 weeks in, something's wrong with it just in time to irritate paying customers.
Gaming? That's not gaming!
That's just people sat 'round in costumes drinking...
they totally revamed the class about a week before beta ended. before that, they were so bad that about 3 people played them(i was one).
thats why this wasn't addressed in the years before launch..it didn't exist until a week before launch.
they didn't just add something here and there, they totally revamed the class. before then they didn't even use jin.
but anyway, yes i played disciple for longer than about anyone. they were overpowered and if you actualy played one, then played a rogue/war/dk/druid/sorc/bm/bard/monk/ then you would agree, unless you are just mad you are not on ezmode anymore which seems to be the case with some..
disclaimer, i dont think disc were the most overpowered class but they were the 2nd. psis who actualy know how to play, rare as they are, are the most overpowered class.
put it this way, end of beta a lvl 43 5 dot dragon was spawned. a bunch of /lvl'd 35 toons were trying to take it down, got it to 97% once..in about 2 hours. finally i brough my lvl'd 35 psi and the dragon was down to 40% before i died, he regen'd to 100% and didnt get down past 98% again.
Very true, but even in beta I saw nerf-dracula coming for the Disciple class, Bards, and Rangers.
The funny thing is... Bards get buffed almost every single patch, Rogues get shafted... every single patch, and I guess they think that Rangers are fine as is.
You know why there are so many Rangers running around in Vanguard?
Simple, the class is overpowered and aloughs people to solo extremely well... too well. I think that it's only a matter of time before they get nerfed as well.
I think that the Bard phenomina will fade too and get the nerf bat, but it's gonna take awhile for the devs to catch on to how people are using the class.
I saw a trio of bards all partied up and I guess they all had their run buffs up and either the buffs stacked or the standard Bard run buff is too fast. Anyway, these little bastards are outrunning people on horseback and they were aggroing 3 dots and leading them around and then running out of aggro range.
I laugh at the people in this post implying that because of this disciple 'balance' that the rest of the classes weren't well thought out. Are you seriously saying that no other MMO nerfs/balances classes throughout the game's history?
The disciple class in Beta was broke they were actually very weak(melee dps) with some decent heals, after their last minute revamp right upon release their dps increased as did their heal power. It had now become just plain overpowered with Disciples soloing 4 dot mobs that were a level or a couple levels above them.
For those of you that rolled Disciples because they were overpowered you may now move on to the next 'overpowered' class for those that enjoy the class because its a very unique class, continue to have fun but you may actually have to take a partner with you to grind.
They are stating, that they actually have to THINK and use tactics when playing. They are saying they are having to use skills that were never used because they used the same attacks and heals because they would just decimate.
SOME classes need to be tweaked to work as intended.
Lets see, DK solo a 4 dotter... nope, BM... nope.. Rogue.. nope.. Warrior... nope.. Pally... maybe probably nope... . etc etc
Yeah I'd be mad if i got "nerfed" but dont be mad because you have to play like alot of other classes, and stop exaggerating saying omg now i can only solo same level 3 dotters like MOST EVERYONE ELSE.
I'm a DK, a TANK and can only solo one +1 level 3 dotter, any more than that and I'm dead. a disciple is a HEALER for F*cks sake not a monk with healing.
Stop whining because your class is now working how the dev's intended... NOT.. how you want it to work. They may tweak it a little in your favor, but they have to start somewhere and do final touches. If you reroll because you now have to play like the rest of us you obviously are an extremely finicky person. And I guarantee if you hadn't started your class before hand and rolled after the changes you wouldent even care, your just used to being an exceptionally powerful damage dealer rather than healing
----------------------
Played (In order of favorite first to least): DAOC, EQ2, EVE, WOW, Vanguard, AC2, City of __, Guild Wars, LOTRO, EQ, Sword of New World, FFXI, Lineage 2, Second Life, DDO, Anarchy Online, RF Online, Archlord, Uru, Ragnarok Online, Shadowbane, Planetside, Auto Assault, Ryzom, Matrix Online, Horizons, Entropia, Sims, Runescape, Lineage 1, AC1, Dungeon Runners
they totally revamed the class about a week before beta ended. before that, they were so bad that about 3 people played them(i was one).
Ahhh yeah, I remember those revamps. . .and I do remember a bunch of "Disciple" lists. . .good point. We cannot forget though, that for all of the time that Disciples were in place and Beta 2 was locked. . .those changes still came in too ham fisted?
Maybe its me, maybe it is harder to make those changes than I know? But 4 years is a looooong time - 3 years is a loooooong time. . . .somebody, screwed up. . .
http://mentaltruancy.guildportal.com - Friendly Vanguard:Saga of Heroes Qalia based Guild.
You have no place in here, go back to the Pong forums. . .LOL.
Although, this is standard fare with MMOs, all Developers still need hardcore criticism. . .I wouldnt criticize the Devs for making things right. . .I criticize the devs for making things right so damn late. . .
Whoever developed whatever game, there are still tons of stupid things done, and no developer should not be called out on those stupid things.
http://mentaltruancy.guildportal.com - Friendly Vanguard:Saga of Heroes Qalia based Guild.
I don't think it's an "over-nerf" at all. Healing classes shouldn't be DPS classes, pure and simple. Just like Tanks shouldn't be able to dish out too much damage, and DPS classes shouldn't be able to tank. If any of the archetypes overlaps into another archetypes sphere it throws the whole game balance off.
Here's why:
Poeple tend to gravitate toward the most over-powered classes they can find. It happens in every single MMO. Poeple get in on the head start and exploit all the bugs and over powered classes they can and then turn around and report the bugs and/or start trying to bring attention to over powered aspects of the class that they've all ready taken full advantage of.
It happened in SWG, it happened in CoH, it happen in WoW.
Not only that, but once people start hitting the lvl cap they start posting that they think lvl is too fast and that they should up exp requirements to lvl, or reduce exp gains, or make the death penalty more strict.
Why? Because they have low self esteem and they use video games as a means for self validation. These are the types of people that help ruin games by taking the fun out of them. These are the types of people that corpse camp you for 30 mins even though you are 20-30 lvls lower than them. The people that try to there damnedest to raise the prices on everything in the games economy to make it harder on starting characters.
I kinda got off on a tanget there, sorry.
Anyway, when people gravitate to the most over powered class, grouping starts becoming harder to do for people that don't have a group that they lvl with on a regular basis, these people become bored and decide to try the over powered FotM and then they get nerfed, which starts the cycle all over again.
So what you're saying is Disciples sucked, they 'fixed' them before launch, and now they're basically saying "Oops, we made them too powerful" and now they've made them suck worse than they did in the first place.
This is STUPID.
Honestly, I would expect a company that has spent YEARS in development to make more intelligent decisions about their game. We can parallel this with the horse speed increase. The early mounts were increased from 30 to 50, people rejoiced. Then, oops! We did it too much, lets make it 40. And of course people get upset, but they still say "Well its better than it was before." Ok.
The problem is, we draw a line at launch. Anything that happens before launch was 'testing' and the way classes are, at launch, is the way we expect them to be. Anyone not in the beta didn't have that "previous sucky disciple" basis of comparison. We had a unique class, one that required some skill, one that was interesting and not a buttonmash fest like many of the classes in this game are. We solo'd fairly well, but I wouldn't say the best. Then all of a sudden, one week in, while still swimming in a myriad of other bugs and problems with the game, WHAM! You've been nerfed. We're just supposed to say, "Its ok, I'm happy?"
Lets be realistic.
I could care less about being able to solo 4dots. The occasional 3 dot, esp. when you need it for a quest, - okay, fine. But every class I have played has had the ability to do a 3 dot, not just my disc. And for the record, My disc had trouble soloing 4 dots, even 4dots a few levels lower than me, unless I had a TON of outside buffs for example. The disciple has the ability to "outlast" - in that in drawing from jin and both endo and energy pools we can heal for LONGER, but spike damage will still kill us. It is hardly god mode, people. We just have a bit more staying power, but we lack the damage to take the mobs down. Especially now after the crit nerf. And now that our staying power has been nerfed into nonexistence, our ability to heal in teams has been nerfed into non existence, what shall the disciples do? Reroll as monks if you want DPS and clerics if you want to heal, I guess.
Or better yet, give Sigil more money by rolling a monk and dragging an autofollow cleric around behind you, which is where I'm leaning at this point, since the game wants to force me to group when I don't have time to spend hours looking for a team and they don't want anyone to have the capability to do anything by themselves.
I laugh at those who really can't see why people are upset. The game is great, it does have a lot of potential, but this? This is just silly.
It just happens to be Disc this time. When the spinning wheel of Nerf lands on your class, lets see how happy you are about it.
Gaming? That's not gaming!
That's just people sat 'round in costumes drinking...
A nerf post-release is nearly always a mistake in a MMORPG.
Game balancing, challenges and everything around that, hold water when it come to the sense of PROGRESSION a player is getting from playing a MMORPG. If you nerf a class, you destroy that sense of progression and make the player feel backward, horrible, like he wastes his time.
Nerfing, post-release, is nearly always a mistake in a MMORPG. The addiction and fun factor doesn't resolve around challenges, but around progression. Before nerfing, a dev should asks himself, is it worth "losing" 10% of the player base from who you remove a toy (I don't say players will quit, I say the dev should consider they would, as this is the worst case scenario)? If the answer is no, then they should reconsider a LOT before nerfing anything, as it will usually be better to work around. Progression pwns game balancing from a RPG-player perspective!
- "If I understand you well, you are telling me until next time. " - Ren
I will wage with you, that BioWare will never nerf any player in their upcoming title.
Of course, comparing anyone with BioWare is quite unfair, it would be like comparing someone to God!
If everyone jumps off the bridge in a Lemmings-way, would you?
- "If I understand you well, you are telling me until next time. " - Ren
no they are still 10x better than they were. the day before the revamp came, a disciple would have a hard time to solo an even lvl 2 dot mob. it would take 5 minutes. if an add came(2 2 dots) you were S.O.L. and no i am not exagerating. this is the only class i ever played where i died on my first fight after creation vs a lvl 1 mob.
nowhere near as bad as they once were.
I've played a Disc to level 11 (almost 12 now), and had no trouble soloing the entire time. I just logged in today to check how bad the nerf was, and I have to say I am surprised. It's pretty severe, and makes Blessed Wind not that great anymore. I could understand reducing the HoT, but increasing the End cost, /and/ increasing the refresh rate? C'mon.
But, I do have to say that I did feel a little overpowered while playing my Disc. I almost /never/ had to use my Heals while fighting even level 2 dot mobs. Maybe if I got an add, okay. Against 3 dots, you bet I had to use my Heals. Was it hard? Not that bad, but as someone said before, spike dmg was always a threat.
Now, I find that Blessed Wind isn't my only attack. Before all I did was the following:
1) Touch of Woe
2) Blessed Wind
3) Soul Cutter
4) If a crit comes up, use Falling Petal
5) Repeat from 2), tossing in a Cyclone Kick if I felt like it
It was pretty easy to solo with a Disciple pre-nerf. My health bar was almost always full. I used a crescent staff too, so Falling Petal rarely came up. I never used Void Hand after I got the level 2 version, cause it's currently bugged. I don't see any numbers, nor does my character animate when I use it. Plus, Soul Cutter is better dmg and uses less Endurance. Both increase Jin by 1.
Now my attacks are more like this:
1) Touch of Woe
2) Blessed Wind
3) Soul Cutter
4) Cyclone Kick (if Jin is half decent)
5) Heal using Lao'Jin Flare, Breath of Renewal, or Astral Wind. (Usually BoR)
6) Repeat from 2), using Falling Petal if a Crit comes up
Not that much different than before, but this time I ... *gasp* ... have to use my Heals. Seems pretty silly how a Healer class could solo before not using their Healing spells all that much.
Suffice to say, I can't see this being that bad for Disciples. Sure we got nerfed. But it sounds like a lot of other classes are gonna take a few hits from the bat too. But we're not completely gimped, at least not from my perspective. Sure it's a bit harder to solo, and you have to be careful of adds and such. But that's the way the game is supposed to be. It kind of felt "too easy" before. Plus, Brad's "vision" has always been about group play, not soloing. I'm sure that in his mind, soloing is something players only want to do if they can't find a group. i.e. Grouping > Soloing. Class balances will follow that line of thinking, and soloability will be put on the back burner. Remember, he's not trying to make WoW 2 here. It's more like EQ 3.
Just my opinion. Feel free to disagree.
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Playing - Waiting on GW2
Formerly played - Aion, CO, CoX, EVE, GW1, LotRO, RIFT, Ryzom, SWG, SWTOR, WAR, WoW
Trialed - AA, DDO, EQ2, L2, MxO, RYL, TERA, VSoH
Beta'd - HGL, GW2, PotBS, SWTOR, TCoS, TR
Anticipating - GW2, PS2
what a shame. Thats not a tweak , thats a total nerf. I can't believe how long it is taking me to solo a same level 2 dot mob now, at the current rate, I'll go from my current level 12 to level 13 in about a year.
Sure, disciples needed a little bit of tweaking, but that was just ridiculous.
Bah
According to one of the Devs, the End cost increase wasn't intended. However, I do believe the reduction to the Heal aspect of Blessed Wind was.
__________________________________
Playing - Waiting on GW2
Formerly played - Aion, CO, CoX, EVE, GW1, LotRO, RIFT, Ryzom, SWG, SWTOR, WAR, WoW
Trialed - AA, DDO, EQ2, L2, MxO, RYL, TERA, VSoH
Beta'd - HGL, GW2, PotBS, SWTOR, TCoS, TR
Anticipating - GW2, PS2
Well if they reset the end cost to reasonable levels, then you can build up jin at a reasonable rate and pop your insta a little more often to make up the difference. You will need to use energy-based heals a bit more than before, but this is more along the lines of the type of 'tweak' that I would deem acceptable. However taking the crit nerf AND the heal nerf at the same time is still a lot, but its manageable now at least.
Gaming? That's not gaming!
That's just people sat 'round in costumes drinking...