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Combat Polish?
Vhaln
Member Posts: 3,159
Just started Vanguard yesterday, but right off, I want to comment on something. The basic combat, it just feels lacking to me, and I'm not sure exactly why. So I've been thinking about it. It seems too much like first-gen MMOs where two characters just stand next to eachother jerking around untill one falls over. It doesn't feel connected. It lacks visceral punch.
I'm not going to get into the gameplay mechanics of it, or anything (but reactionaries might help, too:p). I just want to post about the art and sound, for now. Maybe I'm being superficial, but I think well animated graphics are important in RPGs especially, where we're not doing that much as a player. It's what our characters do that entertains us.
Like a variety of graphics for getting hit, not just swinging. Sounds, animations and even particle effects, for bracing a block or parry, and for taking a light hit or a heavy hit, that looks like it has serious impact, you know?
It's not just about watching numbers and health bars, but all the little touches like that can make MMORPG combat addictive, that make me want to run up and wack the next mole. I'm not feeling that in Vanguard.
When I want a single-player story, I'll play a single-player game. When I play an MMO, I want a massively multiplayer world.
Comments
Play the game for more than 5 minutes, then make an opinion
))
Futilez - Mature MMORPG Community
Correcting people since birth.
The OP is absolutely right and this is what all the makers of new MMOs are struggling with right now, to create a combat system that retains the basic structure of target and click fighting that has become a necessary staple of the genre while pushing it to evolve into something new and engaging.
A great start would be dynamic animations and sophisticated strike collision detection and visible response from avatars. VANGUARD has failed miserably on both counts. While combat animations are improved from beta (believe it or not) they still look sluggish and stiff. WOW may run on an old graphics engine but Blizzard beats the pants off Sigil when it come to motion capture animation that is expressive, fluid and enjoyable to watch.
But the real issue is that no matter how you look at it, we're still forced to stand still and spam the most effective attacks/heals on a toolbar. The only variation is waiting for a crit to activate our finishers or enough jin to unleash a more powerful attack/heal. And from the looks of it, Sigil has gone out of their way to add a lot more "cast" options than your average MMO, but so many of them are very similar. Even individual class abilities like teleporting are just given unqiue names, but are otherwise the same.
It's not just Sigil's problem though. All devs have gotten lazy in this department and done very little to experiement or try anything new. About the only other options explored at this point is FPS-style combat which is what DDO and AGE OF CONAN are working with. But that comes with its own limitations.
Sigil's early plans to implement a full-featured combo system had potential, but as we can see now, what remains of it is far from ideal. Boring combat is what made me quit VANGUARD more than any of the other problems that are plaguing this game. Let's face it, in these games most people are going to spend a large portion of their time beating on mobs. If I'm not having fun doing that, why should I bother playing it over anything else? If I want to socialize I can join a chat room. If I want to be immersed in a fantasy world I can read a book.
(Edit: I played a Disciple to 14, a Monk to 10 and a Cleric to 11. Ask most anyone and they'll tell you that all three are pretty good at soloing and grouping so I know i didn't pick the wrong classes to get a good sampling of what VANGUARD had to offer with regard to combat.)
Yes, the limited martial arts animations I've seen so far hold promise. Most recently I started using a swordstaff with my Raki Disciple and was pleasantly surprised by some flourishes when executing a finisher. Too bad the recent patch greatly reduced the chances of seeing that animation. It'll be a long time I suspect before we see in MMOs the kind of elaborate and cinematic combat animations exhibited in linear single-player games like PRINCE OF PERSIA.
At the beginning i looked closer to my buff and heal animations. They are somehow descreet but very well done. So they know how to animate something and i hope it will be all eyecandy at a 30ish level
It's an odd mentality common to MMOs, that first impressions are not important.
As if we're all veterans, and know things will get better. Well, I am a veteran, and granted, I know they might. But I've also had enough experience to know they might not. I'm not crazy about dumping a hundred hours into every game that comes along just to find out which it'll be.
Even worse, there are lots of MMO newbies, who don't understand that things might get better. If thier first five minutes doesn't grab them, then they'll probably just go back to WoW. IMHO, first impressions are VERY important.
I'm not saying we should get all the bells and whistles right away. but I do think every class should get one big fancy class defining bell or whistle, right at level 2 or so. Something to hook new players immediately, as a taste of what they can look forward to. If my orc warrior must start out fighting rats and frogs, fine, but give me a move that'll knock them silly. They're just rats and frogs FFS, so is that really too much to ask?
When I want a single-player story, I'll play a single-player game. When I play an MMO, I want a massively multiplayer world.
It's an odd mentality common to MMOs, that first impressions are not important.
As if we're all veterans, and know things will get better. Well, I am a veteran, and granted, I know they might. But I've also had enough experience to know they might not. I'm not crazy about dumping a hundred hours into every game that comes along just to find out which it'll be.
Even worse, there are lots of MMO newbies, who don't understand that things might get better. If thier first five minutes doesn't grab them, then they'll probably just bail. IMHO, first impressions are VERY important.
I'm not saying we should get all the bells and whistles right away. but I do think every class should get one big fancy class defining bell or whistle, right at level 2 or so. Something to hook new players immediately, as a taste of what they can look forward to. If my orc warrior must start out fighting rats and frogs, fine, but give me a move that'll knock them silly. They're just rats and frogs FFS, so is that really too much to ask?
I second that. Having played these games since AC, I feel pretty confident about my ability to tell within a short time if a game is going to appeal to me long-term or not. I know that no matter how good a game is, it will be my relationships I forge in game that keep me playing longer than anything else. But a lot of the other stuff that I can't sample at low level like flying mounts, housing and boats are just minor bonuses to me.
Like Vhain, I need a hook that draws me in within the first 10 levels or else the game won't cut it. Its telling in ways that a lot of people may not think about. I'm referring to game design. See I know that if the devs were sharp enough to make the first 10 levels a blast, then they have their priorities straight. Of course, its possible that the rest of the game is a disappointment, but that's rarely been the case unless you feel like counting DDO (which I didn't like from the beginning).
Sure, the combat is not awe inspiring at low levels, but I have recently hit level 16 (on one character) and I have to say.. the combat IS alot more intricate that you think.
If you only started yesterday then you probably havnt really used much in the way of reactions and how to combine them with other party members... nor have you probably tried Rescues (an very clever Paladin system) ..
At First VG seems like other MMO's, just bigger and better graphics.. but the more you play the game the more those differences become bigger and bigger!..
I can see why the combat wouldnt attract your everyday wow player, because it gets very complicated later on.. you have to make split second decisions (you only have 10 seconds to activate a readction) which means you MUST be very aware of whats going on around you.. what classes are doing what, who has aggro and who is the most important person to 'rescue'..
Actually, if you only started yesterday you probably dont even have much of a clue about the _13_ different classes! not to mention the 10 different races.
Then once you start getting further into the other MMO, things like crafting and harvesting... so much more intricate! (even more than EVE)
The diplomacy system means that every NPC in Telon can be interacted with to give yourself and the whole city benefits.
While Vanguard wont appeal to your generic WoW player it certainly will to someone who wants something with a bit more depth and requires more thought.
Sadeyx, I can definately appreciate what you're saying, and hope to agree with you in the near future. You're right, there's lots about the game which I don't have a clue about yet. However, could you maybe read my reply three posts up? I think that I address the issue there. Longterm complexity and depth is all well and good - no, it's great - but, don't you think first impressions are important, too?
When I want a single-player story, I'll play a single-player game. When I play an MMO, I want a massively multiplayer world.
It does get a LOT better in higher levels, once you gain more skills. You get a few spell bars full of em.
While I agree that dynamic strike collision detection and sophisticated response animation would be a great thing, I must point out that the current technology does not allow that. NO game has such a thing.
The reason why is because if you want such a system you would basically have to use a vastly upgraded ragdoll system and corresponding physics system such as Havoc, a system used in games like Oblivion and Half-life 2.
Note that the combat animations in those games are just as predictable and "static" as in Vanguard. I would even say Vanguard has one of better motion-capture systems around. It does not have ragdoll physics, but that's not as important.
What is important is that modern computers still lack the procesing power to compute all the physical intricacies of human locomotion - hence you motion capture the skeleton and apply it to models. You don't try to calculate what the body will do if it's hit on the shoulder and what it will do if it's hit on the leg. And that's just for the humanoid body. What to do with a, say, spider, or a wasp, or a beetle. The kind of processing power such an elaborate physics system would require is beyond the average gaming rig these days.
I mean, attack detection is possible, such as detecting and making a difference between a shoulder hit, a head hit or a leg hit. Just don't expect mobs to grab their head and moan in pain if you whack them on the ear and jerk back if you whack them on the forehead.
Vanguard has animation for blocking, dodging, standard attacks, special attacks, critical hits (ever staggered a mob with a spell crit?), stuns. Most of which are pretty well integrated into a flowing combat animation. The trick is, when you start at first most of those won't show. Special attacks come later, your block and dodge are low and so on. So untill you are close to level 16 and start opening some more exotic abilities, yes, the combat does seem a bit repetitive.
It's an odd mentality common to MMOs, that first impressions are not important.
As if we're all veterans, and know things will get better. Well, I am a veteran, and granted, I know they might. But I've also had enough experience to know they might not. I'm not crazy about dumping a hundred hours into every game that comes along just to find out which it'll be.
Even worse, there are lots of MMO newbies, who don't understand that things might get better. If thier first five minutes doesn't grab them, then they'll probably just go back to WoW. IMHO, first impressions are VERY important.
I'm not saying we should get all the bells and whistles right away. but I do think every class should get one big fancy class defining bell or whistle, right at level 2 or so. Something to hook new players immediately, as a taste of what they can look forward to. If my orc warrior must start out fighting rats and frogs, fine, but give me a move that'll knock them silly. They're just rats and frogs FFS, so is that really too much to ask?
I got introduced to crafting and diplomacy after less than 2 hours of play... And i was very hooked by that.
As i said, play the game for more than 5 minutes, before you come with these stupid outbreaks.
Futilez - Mature MMORPG Community
Correcting people since birth.
It's an odd mentality common to MMOs, that first impressions are not important.
As if we're all veterans, and know things will get better. Well, I am a veteran, and granted, I know they might. But I've also had enough experience to know they might not. I'm not crazy about dumping a hundred hours into every game that comes along just to find out which it'll be.
Even worse, there are lots of MMO newbies, who don't understand that things might get better. If thier first five minutes doesn't grab them, then they'll probably just go back to WoW. IMHO, first impressions are VERY important.
I'm not saying we should get all the bells and whistles right away. but I do think every class should get one big fancy class defining bell or whistle, right at level 2 or so. Something to hook new players immediately, as a taste of what they can look forward to. If my orc warrior must start out fighting rats and frogs, fine, but give me a move that'll knock them silly. They're just rats and frogs FFS, so is that really too much to ask?
I got introduced to crafting and diplomacy after less than 2 hours of play... And i was very hooked by that.
As i said, play the game for more than 5 minutes, before you come with these stupid outbreaks.
He was giving his opinion. So i suggest you get off your bloated self worth and try to read properly what he was saying. I didn't see an stupid outbreaks but just opinion. Don't bash everyone who doesnt think like you.You'll have a pretty nice collection of powers by level 10, but the combat system doesn't fully come into it's own until around level 20-25.
Mobs also become a lot harder around that time, requiring far more tactics and skill to defeat.
It's an odd mentality common to MMOs, that first impressions are not important.
As if we're all veterans, and know things will get better. Well, I am a veteran, and granted, I know they might. But I've also had enough experience to know they might not. I'm not crazy about dumping a hundred hours into every game that comes along just to find out which it'll be.
Even worse, there are lots of MMO newbies, who don't understand that things might get better. If thier first five minutes doesn't grab them, then they'll probably just go back to WoW. IMHO, first impressions are VERY important.
I'm not saying we should get all the bells and whistles right away. but I do think every class should get one big fancy class defining bell or whistle, right at level 2 or so. Something to hook new players immediately, as a taste of what they can look forward to. If my orc warrior must start out fighting rats and frogs, fine, but give me a move that'll knock them silly. They're just rats and frogs FFS, so is that really too much to ask?
I got introduced to crafting and diplomacy after less than 2 hours of play... And i was very hooked by that.
As i said, play the game for more than 5 minutes, before you come with these stupid outbreaks.
Still hoping to try this game once a free trial comes out, but really hope people like Orca are the exception in the VSoH community.
It's an odd mentality common to MMOs, that first impressions are not important.
As if we're all veterans, and know things will get better. Well, I am a veteran, and granted, I know they might. But I've also had enough experience to know they might not. I'm not crazy about dumping a hundred hours into every game that comes along just to find out which it'll be.
Even worse, there are lots of MMO newbies, who don't understand that things might get better. If thier first five minutes doesn't grab them, then they'll probably just go back to WoW. IMHO, first impressions are VERY important.
I'm not saying we should get all the bells and whistles right away. but I do think every class should get one big fancy class defining bell or whistle, right at level 2 or so. Something to hook new players immediately, as a taste of what they can look forward to. If my orc warrior must start out fighting rats and frogs, fine, but give me a move that'll knock them silly. They're just rats and frogs FFS, so is that really too much to ask?
I got introduced to crafting and diplomacy after less than 2 hours of play... And i was very hooked by that.
As i said, play the game for more than 5 minutes, before you come with these stupid outbreaks.
Still hoping to try this game once a free trial comes out, but really hope people like Orca are the exception in the VSoH community.
The in-game community I found to be vastly superior to the forum crowd. I appreciate rebuttals by people like Gaudrath, but he and others tend to be in the minority around here and on the official affiliate forums. Too many fans get up in arms about their precious game and seem to forgot that despite its strengths, VANGUARD simply won't appeal to everyone or even the majority (at least in its present state).
Thanks for this response. It's very well stated. I'm going to continue leveling my 14 Disciple until my current pay period expires and then see how I'm feeling about the game. I'd like to see some of these new abilities.
I'm sure MMOs have a lot of restrictions that single-player games do not. I'm not expecting them to be at the same level, such as with ragdoll phyics. But I do hope to see improvements in the future though. Combat is such a fundamental part of these games. I'd just like to see a game that really makes it their priority to innovate as much as possible within reason, even if that means trimming other features. People talk a lot about immersion when discussing MMO. For me, apart from having an attractive environment, nothing draws me in more than a fighting system that is responsive, high-impact and visceral. I'd point to elements of the combat system and animations in JADE EMPIRE as an example of what I'd like to see in an MMO.
I agree. VSoH combat is not as much action oriented as WoW. Its slower and not as fluid unfortunately.
I am the type of player where I like to do everything and anything from time to time.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Holodomor - pre-WW2 genocide.
Aiming that high would be great, but it's not really what I was referring to. I was thinking more about previous MMOs I've played, ranging from DAOC, to CoH, and even to some of the animations common to Asian imports.
DAOC makes a difficult example, because at low level, combat is pretty basic. You don't get many styles yet, and defensive skills are very low, a lot like Vanguard -but there is something polished about DAOC's combat. I always felt that the animations are especially solid, even at those low levels. Simple, but well connected and satisfying somehow. Far from a perfect example, but there's something basic that it's got that works well.
Then there's CoH, with all it's combat effects, like knockdown/back/up, stuns, and the spasms targets go into for a second when jolted with electricity. Probably why alts were so addictive in that game, you get a few of those abilities right away. Just in terms of graphics and sound, it made it fun just to hit things. Not deep or complex fun, but there was no question that you were beating on your opponents. It made for a great initial hook.
And I only mention Asian games, because a lot of them seem to focus on attack animations. The combat mechanics can be the simplest, most boring in the business, yet it can be cool to watch characters jump and spin, performing elaborate animation combos, like characters out of Soul Caliber. That'd be inappropriate and overdone in a world like Vanguard's, but what they get right that should fit in any MMO is that the animations can be exceptionally fluid and well strung together.
I just offer these examples to express that I'm not referring to any sort of advanced collision detection or anything like that, as nice as that may someday be.
Yeah, even at low levels, I do notice some of that. After my first post in this thread, I tried a warrior, just to see that sort of thing as early as possible. To me, it's more an issue of how it's done, though. Just seems lacking somehow. I'm sure I've been spoiled by all the ways other games have raised the bar, but I thought Vanguard was the sort of game with an insane budget that would be trying to do some bar raising of it's own, not fall short.
When I want a single-player story, I'll play a single-player game. When I play an MMO, I want a massively multiplayer world.
Are you guys aware that all the animations aren't in the game yet. Before beta was out I also heard talk of improving alot of animations. Right now they are just placeholders.
They are also going to add chat bubbles.
While a single player game may take you twenty hours to finish at the most (turn absed RPGs aside), you may be playing an MMO for dozens, maybe hundreds of days of played time. By comparison, if it takes you a half an hour to really get a feel for how those games work, it should take you many hours to really get a feel for how an MMO works or else it is WAY too shallow to bother continuing.