Its strange that people can be given a veritable cornucopia of options in a game and yet somehow manage to find the most mundane aspects of that game and do them repetitively all the while complaining about the "grind" as if it was somehow imposed upon them to play the game in that fashion by some entity that forbids them from enjoying all of the content that exists outside of those particular actions.
I hope using words like "cornucopia" make you feel good ...
Anyway - to address your point. Maybe you're right. Maybe it's just leveling and crafting and travel that are tedious. Maybe I'm missing the fun parts where you can ride your mount around the world and stare at beautiful vistas. Right ........
I'm pissed because I'm on a budget and I don't have another $60 to go buy another game ... so back to WoW I go. I wish I had bought EQ2 instead. For all it's flaws - at least I wouldn't be paying to Beta test. Say what you want about WoW, it was more stable than this in closed beta 4 months before release.
------ Played - UO, FFXI, WAR, WoW, EVE Currently - Bored.
Ok it's been a while since i posted here due the fact that i been grinding i mean playing vanguard. Now i agree with the OP I have really played that game,my out take is past lvl 18 it's grind grind grind. Now i have heard that someone made it to lvl 43 already that is really good for him. That person might not be human or it's more than one person playing on that account. Ok back to topic the game is very heavy on your time so if you have little of it to start with don't really think you will get to far in the game. I played from beta 5 to beta 6 i mean release, i was able to lvl my first toon to lvl 20 after about 40 to 45 hours RLT. Then i went on to lvl another toon at druid who is lvl 19 now the time it toke to lvl him to that lvl was about 28 hours or so since i knew where to go. Well to wrap this up it is a good game but it turns into a grind fest fast early on in the game which is really sad. The crafting grind the Diplomacy grind lvling grind, now don't get me wrong grinding is not always a bad thing but when it starts early in a game it's just not fun.Some might say that well if it takes long it's more of a challenge surpose to make you feel like you accomplished something great . Well that 's not the case for me and other ppl not saying that i want things handed to me but grinding so early on in everything you want to do in the game is crazy.
Notice i didn't saying anything about the issues with the game at all And i had such high hopes to
FFxi Retired Coh/Cov Retired Guild Wars/Retired WOW/(11-23-04/1-6-07) VSOH/ retired AOC/retired that was fast Waiting 4 DCUO ,and FFXIV
Originally posted by anarchyart Originally posted by _Jord_ The amount of time it takes to do something does not equate to difficulty.
Actually, it does. Name one way you can make something more difficult that does not, at it's base level translate directly to time. I will be here to explain to you how it indeed does equal time.
Time and difficulty are completely relative to the player and character type in question. What may be difficult and time-consuming to one player / character type is not necessarily either to another. Player perceptions of how long something should take, how long it actually takes due to game modifiers and how worthwhile the activity is depends on the player and the game modifiers operant (type of character, type of activity, skills or abilities, etc) at the time the activity is taking place.
It is not an absolute that the amount of time that something takes to do equates to difficulty, nor is the inverse true.
EXAMPLE 1: You create burlap bags. You succeed every single time. You never fail. The task is not difficult. You are only doing it because it will raise your overall "tailor" skill. It is time consuming.
The amount of time it takes to raise your skill satisfactorily using this method is not in any way related to the difficulty of the task. The reason that you do it is because it requires few resources and the chance of failure is null.
Another player is also trying to achieve the same level in their tailor skill as you are. They choose to make bags of holding. There is a higher percentile chance of failure. It is time consuming not because of the sheer number of bags of holding that must be made, but rather because of the failure rate.
Although both players would say that the task of raising their tailor skill was time consuming, they would not both report that it was difficult. For one player, it was simply tedious. For the other player, it was difficult.
EXAMPLE 2: A player using a fighter-type character has to fight an ogre in a cave. The warrior dodges, jumps and strafes, almost dying twice but emerging victorious at the end of the combat, nearly dead but triumphant.
The same player uses a spell-casting character that is heavy in hold and damage over time (DoT) spells. This spell-caster holds and DoTs the ogre, emerging triumphant and largely untouched.
They both take the same amount of time to dispatch the ogre because the warrior has a harder time landing blows but can land fewer than the spell-caster because each attack deals greater damage. The spell-caster's DoTs are not nearly as powerful individually as each successful blow landed by the warrior and recast time and resists are a factor.
The warrior will report that the task was more difficult because they nearly died on several occasions during the attempt. The spell-caster will report that the task was easy because they managed it with little risk.
The difficulty of the task in each case is not related to the amount of time it took the player to accomplish it, as that amount of time is exactly the same. It is related to the actual difficulty of the task relative to their separate class abilities, based on the player's perception of the risk they took to accomplish the task.
That said, there is a definite difference between quality game time and time sinks.
Quality time involves creating an atmosphere, building dramatic tension and providing in-depth lore to support the activity in question. It involves giving the player a goal that makes them feel as though they are performing a task that is important to the game world.
A time sink involves creating repetitive activities that provide limited lore, zero dramatic tension and create no atmosphere. The player does not get the feeling that the activity in question is important to the game world. It is normally a menial task and feels like a menial task.
Abbatoir / Abbatoir Cinq Adnihilo Beorn Judge's Edge Somnulus Perfect Black ---------------------- Asheron's Call / Asheron's Call 2 Everquest / Everquest 2 Anarchy Online Shadowbane Dark Age of Camelot Star Wars Galaxies Matrix Online World of Warcraft Guild Wars City of Heroes
It's the whole problem with mmorpgs. There all about lvling and grinding. theres no skill involved. It would be like playing chess if you had to move you knights 20 times before you can move all the other piece. Alot of gamers don't like the restraints put in with lvl and skill points.
Everyone is screaming for better 'gameplay' but no developers want to move away from the lvl / skill / grind mentality.
I actually agree with just about everything the OP said. I never tried crafting, so no clue on that. Although the grind is this game isn't too bad (if you have a group) it does suck. But I actually, kinda, maybe, I think, just a little... liked it.. when I had a group.
I had a 31 Bard about 4 days ago, could be about 36 today, if I didn't delete and cancel my sub. The game is fun, I miss it a little, but maybe it was because the population for my Lv. was too thin that I never could get into a group. Some days were solo and some were grouped. I always tried to get into one, but was left out if I didn't sleep for 4 hours and play the rest of the day. I have the time sadly, but I just can't do it like the people I was with, so the groups always filled that I played with.
I never joined a guild on my server. Why you ask? Simple! they were ALL trash. They were either zerg guilds, like most on launch day, or trash. Okay, maybe a little harsh, but I' mainly talking about the guilds that had members 25+ for my level range, they all sucked.
Maybe down the road when the servers get a little more heavy and the level range picks up, i'll return. Good game, honestly, had lots of fun.. when grouped, solo... not fun at all, a nightmare 25+. I wanted to gouge my eyes out.
Points to be made
1) I wanted to be melee
2) Not a Disc
3) or a Necro
4) or broken PSI
5) Or Cleric
Last but not least... I agree with this guy, besides not buying the game. get a trial from someone, or take the plunge. I did, and I liked it, but I need the game to let me solo when i can't get a group, efficiently, with any class...
I appreciate your examples as they are constructed well and you make your point. However, one small addition that has a bearing on overall time spent is the price of failure...especially in the combat example. A loss for the fighter equates to further 'grinding' encounters in order to reclaim lost experience effectively repeating that battle again. So that even in the example where a battle isn't taken for granted or perceived as repetitive grinding there is a grinding component.
A small point I realize. At any rate, this is probably why I am holding off on Vanguard. Not the death penalty or corpse runs but the fact that they are simply a small part of a greater level of timesinks. Even if the battles are riveting and hectic if they amount to virtually nothing in the growth of your character so that 100's of those battles are required for effect then perhaps it is a grind.
I like the artistic vision...I really like the abundant amount of classes and races...the ships and houses and diplomacy and on and on. Yet the constant descriptions of grinding and the apparent endgame raid necessity really force me to ignore these great aspects.
Ah well perhaps I will try this game when it matures....and perhaps offers a free trial.
Originally posted by MuffinStump Somnulus, I appreciate your examples as they are constructed well and you make your point. However, one small addition that has a bearing on overall time spent is the price of failure...especially in the combat example. A loss for the fighter equates to further 'grinding' encounters in order to reclaim lost experience effectively repeating that battle again. So that even in the example where a battle isn't taken for granted or perceived as repetitive grinding there is a grinding component.
Thank you, MuffinStump!
The addition of experience loss does modify the amount of time spent to recover from the loss, but in the end, it doesn't actually change the relative difficulty of the situation.
If the warrior dies in about the same amount of time it takes the spell-caster to bring down their target, the response you would receive from each when they are asked about the quest objective (kill the ogre) immediately after that first encounter is still the same regardless of the pending/potential experience loss due to death.
The experience loss/penalty is incidental to the event of death and added after the fact.
If anything, it widens the gulf between what is considered difficult and what is not, while not actually changing the amount of time the encounter itself took.
The spell-caster will still report the task as relatively simple, while the warrior will likely report the task as extremely difficult.
In the long run, it really doesn't matter how long the actual event takes relative to both character types; they will report it as easy or difficult based on their risk and not on how long it took them to achieve the goal.
If it takes the warrior thirty-five seconds to finish off the ogre, but s/he is near death on multiple occasions and nearly dies before the end, they will still likely report the encounter as difficult, especially if they spent a good majority of their short time running, dodging and jumping around the target, timing blows, etc.
If it takes the spell-caster eight minutes to take the ogre down, but they are never in any actual danger and they spend the majority of their time simply mashing the same buttons in the same sequence while moving out of range at a leisurely pace, they will most likely report that the encounter was not difficult, but long.
A small point I realize. At any rate, this is probably why I am holding off on Vanguard. Not the death penalty or corpse runs but the fact that they are simply a small part of a greater level of timesinks. Even if the battles are riveting and hectic if they amount to virtually nothing in the growth of your character so that 100's of those battles are required for effect then perhaps it is a grind.
I understand your point entirely here. There must remain a fine balance, though, between activities and their rewards that allows a player to progress while also maintaining them as a subscriber. It's essential to the MMO profit model.
Let me ask you this, though; if the quests you were sent on were engaging, thought-provoking, reinforced existing lore and made you feel as though you were having an impact on the game world in some way, would you be more likely to pay less attention to the rate at which you were levelling?
It's my belief that if the content is engaging in the manner I described, people have a tendency to become so involved in the game "world" that they rarely notice the rate at which they are actually levelling; especially if their fellow players are not levelling at a rate that is inordinately faster through simple mob killing (grinding).
I think there is a point where you can find yourself having so much actual fun in a game that the concept of advancement becomes a side-issue. Not that it is not important; but that rather than counting every single kill towards your next level, you become immersed in the world itself.
My personal belief is that where the rubber meets the road as far as actual experience and levelling is concerned is when the reward does not match the risk. If the "kill the ogre" scenario above awarded both players two copper pieces, regardless of the depth of the story the warrior would feel as though they had been severely cheated considering their multiple near-deaths. The spell-caster would feel put out because of his/her time investment, but his/her overall risk was minimal in comparison so they may be more likely to shrug it off.
A base should be established that rewards both players sufficiently, while slightly increasing the reward for a character that fights something that represents a greater risk to them based on the mob's abilities relative to the player character's.
This reward system shouldn't be purely level-based where a low-level character gets a greater reward simply because they are fighting something higher level. This too should be scaled to consider the relative abilities of the mob and the player character.
I like the artistic vision...I really like the abundant amount of classes and races...the ships and houses and diplomacy and on and on. Yet the constant descriptions of grinding and the apparent endgame raid necessity really force me to ignore these great aspects.Ah well perhaps I will try this game when it matures....and perhaps offers a free trial.
Vanguard is definitely worth a try, although more maturity and development certainly wouldn't hurt it. As someone said earlier, some people actually enjoy the grind. In some ways, that can be fun, particuarly when your group continuously manages to beat the odds.
Waiting on a new MMO to work out the kinks is always a good strategy, though!
Abbatoir / Abbatoir Cinq Adnihilo Beorn Judge's Edge Somnulus Perfect Black ---------------------- Asheron's Call / Asheron's Call 2 Everquest / Everquest 2 Anarchy Online Shadowbane Dark Age of Camelot Star Wars Galaxies Matrix Online World of Warcraft Guild Wars City of Heroes
Heltern, give me a link to your level 15+ character in Vanguard.
My level 15 Ranger is in The Old Timers Guild on Hilsbury - the largest guild in Vanguard and even * I * can't find a group to save my life.
When and if I find a group its a goddamn crap shoot as to whether we'll make it 10-15 minutes without a 4-dot mob disappearing during a fight (but still attacking us/killing us/making us run the fuck back and get our corpses).
Even in the largest guild in Vanguard, I have yet to have a successful dungeon run. Every dungeon run I end up with LESS xp than I came in with OR significant XP debt.
I, for one, really LOVED Vanguard during the first 13 levels - enough that I played them 5 times. A Rhaki (fox), Half Elf, Barbarian (Varanjar, this is my 15 Ranger), Qualian Human, and Dwarf.
The 1-13 game most certainly is the best damn MMO online at the moment. Thereafter, it turns into a complete grind fest.
I'm all about a good challenge. I like things that are complicated (I'm a computer programmer by trade). But what I don't like is large ass time gind fests like Vanguard.
Even in UO (I'm talking 1998 UO, not this new crap) we actually felt a sense of accomplishment for grinding for 4-5 hours in a stint. There were no quests to speak of, you just ground the same damn mobs for hours. But you could actually SEE a difference when you did, that's what made it fun.
Not in Vanguard. Even at level 15 I ground for literally 2 hours and got one bubble of XP. If I were to die and was not able to recover my corpse I'd lose TWO FULL BUBBLES OF XP!! That's 4 fucking hours of grinding!
Games played:
Liked:
EVE (3 active accounts), WoW (62 Human Warrior, 60 Orc Shaman), UO (3x Grand Master), Neocron 2, Horizons, SWG Pre-NGE/CU, AO
I either just didn't like these or I lost interest and just quit:
SWG Post CU/NGE, L2, DAoC, RO, Ryzom, GW:P, EQ, EQII, DDO, AC, AA, CoH, and Vanguard: SoH.
I had a lot of hope for Ryzom because I really dig skill based systems (ala UO) but I couldn't get over the lack of people. This is one of those that I've resubbed (actually paid for) at least twice just to give it another go. I'll probably give it another shot sometime.
why would anyone who actually enjoyed playing vanguard, exit the game to come to these forums to talk it up, unless they were bored of it? can someone explain this? if you have played vanguard you are either 1- enjoying a brand new game 2- pissed and hating it, and thus complaining on forums. so what the hell are people who say they like the game doing on forums, unless they are bored of the game? please explain?
Kedoremos, firstly - if you get the bug where the mobs graphically warp, you can still attack them & use all skills etc just fine, try it next time, or your tank can learn to take 1 step back and they pop back into place (assuming he has agro of course).
We're really enjoying all the dungeon content, bugs & deaths to them not withstanding, and getting lots of quests and exploring the world etc done not just grinding in place - and yet my groups around lvl 27 right now, if anything the xp gain seems a little fast but nothing to really worry about.
Any game is a grind if you feel the need that as soon as you step foot in the world you have to make it to the level cap as fast as humanly possible. Take it from someone who played a real grinder like FFXI and a real bowl of easy like WoW, taking a long time to level isn't such a bad thing. The reward of hitting the level cap after a marathon is worth a lot more to you than after a sprint.
Also for the record, if you do your solo quests and a few group quests a week the xp rolls by and you don't even notice. I'm not a powergamer or hardcore grinder by any means and I've leveled diplomacy, crafting, harvesting and my ranger is level 22 in adventuring just playing at a nice pace since launch.
My definition of grind is If you have to go kill random mobs to level because there are no quests you can do in order progress.. When you have no other choice because you can't find a group or quests that is a grind. Not saying it does or doesnt happen in Vanguard. Not every game is a grind but most have those levels where you have very little choice.
If you want to level fast should not be the issue. It is what the game offers you to do so that creates a grind.
Originally posted by rubadub you are the thing ''typical'' here.Whats typical is people who buy something whit their hard earn money, and after they notice they got riped off royally, they cant accept it, so they go on telling every one how great it is, they even try and get em to buy it to, cuz they dont wana be alone in this mess they baught.I baught it, i know i gave my money for a bad product, i am assuming it, whit dont you?
Yeah, I know exactly how you feel. I blew my hard earned money on WoW.
you are the thing ''typical'' here. Whats typical is people who buy something whit their hard earn money, and after they notice they got riped off royally, they cant
accept it, so they go on telling every one how great it is, they even try and get em to buy it to, cuz they dont wana be alone in this
mess they baught. I baught it, i know i gave my money for a bad product, i am assuming it, whit dont you?
Yeah, I know exactly how you feel. I blew my hard earned money on WoW.
I just cancelled my subscription after 12 RL days, almost 5 days /played, about 130 headaches due to bugs and lag on my high-end system, tedious crafting and a population of generally nice people who are deluded into thinking that anything that takes a long time makes a game fun.
The crafting, while good in concept, becomes a HUGE grind as early as crafting level 5-6. The process, which seems like fun when you're doing the tutorial, becomes SO slow and tedious when even the most basic craft takes a number of steps, which after the first couple times you do it are thoughtless clicks. Complications aren't interesting, either.
The adventuring at low levels (1-15?) is decent, with plenty of solo quests and group quests. You can get a few quests, go do them, find a group while you're there, complete them, and level. This is very deceiving - it is just enough to have lowbies RAVING about the game before they know what they're actually getting into.
As you get into the late teens and especially early 20s, you become forced to basically find a group and GRIND to level. There are missives and a few quests to speed things up, but the general consensus is that a solid group grinding 3-4* mobs is the best (and only) way to go. Even w/ a perfect party, you can grind all night and the progress is SO slow.
I have to post this to save people from the vanboys. I bought this game because so many people were raving about it ... MMOs have evolved away from the EQ1 days for a good reason. If you REALLY miss EQ1 - with the grind and the more grind and the even more grind - then this game is for you. If you don't want to grind for the next year just to experience this not-very-unique game's non-existant end-game, dont buy this game.
That is all.
You did 5 /played days in 12 RL days, no wonder you are cancelling. Take a break, play for a couple hours, etc, sheesh!
Jord, you are trying to present your opinion as fact. You dont like VG's "grind".. thats fair, but it doesn't mean that other people won't find VG's "grind" enjoyable. You are taking a part of the game that's totally subjective and ramming it down everyones throat. You started off alright but now are just irritating, arrogant, and childish.
Jord, you are trying to present your opinion as fact. You dont like VG's "grind".. thats fair, but it doesn't mean that other people won't find VG's "grind" enjoyable. You are taking a part of the game that's totally subjective and ramming it down everyones throat. You started off alright but now are just irritating, arrogant, and childish.
Although grinding is not fun, I do not like playing games like WoW where a monkey with down's syndrome can reach max level in two weeks. The leveling system I have enjoyed most over my time gaming was Diablo 2. You could easily reach level 80, and play the game in full, but it took a good long time to reach level 99. Now, no one HAD to reach level 99 to play the game, but if you did you had obviously made quite the accomplishment (not to mention you'd find lots of great loot along the way).
Now, I don't play Vanguard, as it just wasn't what I was exactly looking for in an MMO (bugs were a big problem too), but they took a step in the right direction with longer leveling. Everyone at max level is not enjoyable, no matter how annoying the grind is to get there. You A-D-D'ers like the OP can simply cry as much as you want about it, but in the end I just think that you shouldn't be playing an MMO and trying to change MMO style gaming to console gaming. If you want Zelda that you can defeat in a week, go play Zelda. Quit ruining MMOs by trying to implement your A-D-D leveling scheme.
Jord, you are trying to present your opinion as fact. You dont like VG's "grind".. thats fair, but it doesn't mean that other people won't find VG's "grind" enjoyable. You are taking a part of the game that's totally subjective and ramming it down everyones throat. You started off alright but now are just irritating, arrogant, and childish.
"a truth known by actual experience or observation; something known to be true"
If enough people agree then it becomes fact. I think a lot of people agree.
I'm glad thats what you THINK. I respect your opinion. My only problem with your post is the fact that you are talking about a completely SUBJECTIVE item and portraying it as fact. The "grind" if that's what you want to call it, has been an enjoyable one for me. I've met a lot of good people, experienced a lot of great content, and bagged some nice names so far. Sorry, I don't think a lot of people agree, most of them are probably to busy playing.
Comments
Whats typical is people who buy something whit their hard earn money, and after they notice they got riped off royally, they cant
accept it, so they go on telling every one how great it is, they even try and get em to buy it to, cuz they dont wana be alone in this
mess they baught.
I baught it, i know i gave my money for a bad product, i am assuming it, whit dont you?
the object of war is not to die for your country, its to make some other bastard die for his.
G.Paton
Anyway - to address your point. Maybe you're right. Maybe it's just leveling and crafting and travel that are tedious. Maybe I'm missing the fun parts where you can ride your mount around the world and stare at beautiful vistas. Right ........
I'm pissed because I'm on a budget and I don't have another $60 to go buy another game ... so back to WoW I go. I wish I had bought EQ2 instead. For all it's flaws - at least I wouldn't be paying to Beta test. Say what you want about WoW, it was more stable than this in closed beta 4 months before release.
------
Played - UO, FFXI, WAR, WoW, EVE
Currently - Bored.
Strange comment to make. Have you played vanguard? Shame you guys don't like vanguard. Now mov along. You've had you moan
now leave the forum for ppl that like the game.
Ok it's been a while since i posted here due the fact that i been grinding i mean playing vanguard. Now i agree with the OP I have really played that game,my out take is past lvl 18 it's grind grind grind. Now i have heard that someone made it to lvl 43 already that is really good for him. That person might not be human or it's more than one person playing on that account. Ok back to topic the game is very heavy on your time so if you have little of it to start with don't really think you will get to far in the game. I played from beta 5 to beta 6 i mean release, i was able to lvl my first toon to lvl 20 after about 40 to 45 hours RLT. Then i went on to lvl another toon at druid who is lvl 19 now the time it toke to lvl him to that lvl was about 28 hours or so since i knew where to go. Well to wrap this up it is a good game but it turns into a grind fest fast early on in the game which is really sad. The crafting grind the Diplomacy grind lvling grind, now don't get me wrong grinding is not always a bad thing but when it starts early in a game it's just not fun.Some might say that well if it takes long it's more of a challenge surpose to make you feel like you accomplished something great . Well that 's not the case for me and other ppl not saying that i want things handed to me but grinding so early on in everything you want to do in the game is crazy.
Notice i didn't saying anything about the issues with the game at all
And i had such high hopes to
FFxi Retired
Coh/Cov Retired
Guild Wars/Retired
WOW/(11-23-04/1-6-07)
VSOH/ retired
AOC/retired that was fast
Waiting 4 DCUO ,and FFXIV
Time and difficulty are completely relative to the player and character type in question. What may be difficult and time-consuming to one player / character type is not necessarily either to another. Player perceptions of how long something should take, how long it actually takes due to game modifiers and how worthwhile the activity is depends on the player and the game modifiers operant (type of character, type of activity, skills or abilities, etc) at the time the activity is taking place.
It is not an absolute that the amount of time that something takes to do equates to difficulty, nor is the inverse true.
EXAMPLE 1: You create burlap bags. You succeed every single time. You never fail. The task is not difficult. You are only doing it because it will raise your overall "tailor" skill. It is time consuming.
The amount of time it takes to raise your skill satisfactorily using this method is not in any way related to the difficulty of the task. The reason that you do it is because it requires few resources and the chance of failure is null.
Another player is also trying to achieve the same level in their tailor skill as you are. They choose to make bags of holding. There is a higher percentile chance of failure. It is time consuming not because of the sheer number of bags of holding that must be made, but rather because of the failure rate.
Although both players would say that the task of raising their tailor skill was time consuming, they would not both report that it was difficult. For one player, it was simply tedious. For the other player, it was difficult.
EXAMPLE 2: A player using a fighter-type character has to fight an ogre in a cave. The warrior dodges, jumps and strafes, almost dying twice but emerging victorious at the end of the combat, nearly dead but triumphant.
The same player uses a spell-casting character that is heavy in hold and damage over time (DoT) spells. This spell-caster holds and DoTs the ogre, emerging triumphant and largely untouched.
They both take the same amount of time to dispatch the ogre because the warrior has a harder time landing blows but can land fewer than the spell-caster because each attack deals greater damage. The spell-caster's DoTs are not nearly as powerful individually as each successful blow landed by the warrior and recast time and resists are a factor.
The warrior will report that the task was more difficult because they nearly died on several occasions during the attempt. The spell-caster will report that the task was easy because they managed it with little risk.
The difficulty of the task in each case is not related to the amount of time it took the player to accomplish it, as that amount of time is exactly the same. It is related to the actual difficulty of the task relative to their separate class abilities, based on the player's perception of the risk they took to accomplish the task.
That said, there is a definite difference between quality game time and time sinks.
Quality time involves creating an atmosphere, building dramatic tension and providing in-depth lore to support the activity in question. It involves giving the player a goal that makes them feel as though they are performing a task that is important to the game world.
A time sink involves creating repetitive activities that provide limited lore, zero dramatic tension and create no atmosphere. The player does not get the feeling that the activity in question is important to the game world. It is normally a menial task and feels like a menial task.
Abbatoir / Abbatoir Cinq
Adnihilo
Beorn Judge's Edge
Somnulus
Perfect Black
----------------------
Asheron's Call / Asheron's Call 2
Everquest / Everquest 2
Anarchy Online
Shadowbane
Dark Age of Camelot
Star Wars Galaxies
Matrix Online
World of Warcraft
Guild Wars
City of Heroes
It's the whole problem with mmorpgs. There all about lvling and grinding. theres no skill involved. It would be like playing chess if you had to move you knights 20 times before you can move all the other piece. Alot of gamers don't like the restraints put in with lvl and skill points.
Everyone is screaming for better 'gameplay' but no developers want to move away from the lvl / skill / grind mentality.
I actually agree with just about everything the OP said. I never tried crafting, so no clue on that. Although the grind is this game isn't too bad (if you have a group) it does suck. But I actually, kinda, maybe, I think, just a little... liked it.. when I had a group.
I had a 31 Bard about 4 days ago, could be about 36 today, if I didn't delete and cancel my sub. The game is fun, I miss it a little, but maybe it was because the population for my Lv. was too thin that I never could get into a group. Some days were solo and some were grouped. I always tried to get into one, but was left out if I didn't sleep for 4 hours and play the rest of the day. I have the time sadly, but I just can't do it like the people I was with, so the groups always filled that I played with.
I never joined a guild on my server. Why you ask? Simple! they were ALL trash. They were either zerg guilds, like most on launch day, or trash. Okay, maybe a little harsh, but I' mainly talking about the guilds that had members 25+ for my level range, they all sucked.
Maybe down the road when the servers get a little more heavy and the level range picks up, i'll return. Good game, honestly, had lots of fun.. when grouped, solo... not fun at all, a nightmare 25+. I wanted to gouge my eyes out.
Points to be made
1) I wanted to be melee
2) Not a Disc
3) or a Necro
4) or broken PSI
5) Or Cleric
Last but not least... I agree with this guy, besides not buying the game. get a trial from someone, or take the plunge. I did, and I liked it, but I need the game to let me solo when i can't get a group, efficiently, with any class...
Somnulus,
I appreciate your examples as they are constructed well and you make your point. However, one small addition that has a bearing on overall time spent is the price of failure...especially in the combat example. A loss for the fighter equates to further 'grinding' encounters in order to reclaim lost experience effectively repeating that battle again. So that even in the example where a battle isn't taken for granted or perceived as repetitive grinding there is a grinding component.
A small point I realize.
At any rate, this is probably why I am holding off on Vanguard. Not the death penalty or corpse runs but the fact that they are simply a small part of a greater level of timesinks. Even if the battles are riveting and hectic if they amount to virtually nothing in the growth of your character so that 100's of those battles are required for effect then perhaps it is a grind.
I like the artistic vision...I really like the abundant amount of classes and races...the ships and houses and diplomacy and on and on. Yet the constant descriptions of grinding and the apparent endgame raid necessity really force me to ignore these great aspects.
Ah well perhaps I will try this game when it matures....and perhaps offers a free trial.
Why is it that everyone who dislikes Vanguard just can't seem to string two correct sentences together?
/boggle
Thank you, MuffinStump!
The addition of experience loss does modify the amount of time spent to recover from the loss, but in the end, it doesn't actually change the relative difficulty of the situation.
If the warrior dies in about the same amount of time it takes the spell-caster to bring down their target, the response you would receive from each when they are asked about the quest objective (kill the ogre) immediately after that first encounter is still the same regardless of the pending/potential experience loss due to death.
The experience loss/penalty is incidental to the event of death and added after the fact.
If anything, it widens the gulf between what is considered difficult and what is not, while not actually changing the amount of time the encounter itself took.
The spell-caster will still report the task as relatively simple, while the warrior will likely report the task as extremely difficult.
In the long run, it really doesn't matter how long the actual event takes relative to both character types; they will report it as easy or difficult based on their risk and not on how long it took them to achieve the goal.
If it takes the warrior thirty-five seconds to finish off the ogre, but s/he is near death on multiple occasions and nearly dies before the end, they will still likely report the encounter as difficult, especially if they spent a good majority of their short time running, dodging and jumping around the target, timing blows, etc.
If it takes the spell-caster eight minutes to take the ogre down, but they are never in any actual danger and they spend the majority of their time simply mashing the same buttons in the same sequence while moving out of range at a leisurely pace, they will most likely report that the encounter was not difficult, but long.
I understand your point entirely here. There must remain a fine balance, though, between activities and their rewards that allows a player to progress while also maintaining them as a subscriber. It's essential to the MMO profit model.
Let me ask you this, though; if the quests you were sent on were engaging, thought-provoking, reinforced existing lore and made you feel as though you were having an impact on the game world in some way, would you be more likely to pay less attention to the rate at which you were levelling?
It's my belief that if the content is engaging in the manner I described, people have a tendency to become so involved in the game "world" that they rarely notice the rate at which they are actually levelling; especially if their fellow players are not levelling at a rate that is inordinately faster through simple mob killing (grinding).
I think there is a point where you can find yourself having so much actual fun in a game that the concept of advancement becomes a side-issue. Not that it is not important; but that rather than counting every single kill towards your next level, you become immersed in the world itself.
My personal belief is that where the rubber meets the road as far as actual experience and levelling is concerned is when the reward does not match the risk. If the "kill the ogre" scenario above awarded both players two copper pieces, regardless of the depth of the story the warrior would feel as though they had been severely cheated considering their multiple near-deaths. The spell-caster would feel put out because of his/her time investment, but his/her overall risk was minimal in comparison so they may be more likely to shrug it off.
A base should be established that rewards both players sufficiently, while slightly increasing the reward for a character that fights something that represents a greater risk to them based on the mob's abilities relative to the player character's.
This reward system shouldn't be purely level-based where a low-level character gets a greater reward simply because they are fighting something higher level. This too should be scaled to consider the relative abilities of the mob and the player character.
Vanguard is definitely worth a try, although more maturity and development certainly wouldn't hurt it. As someone said earlier, some people actually enjoy the grind. In some ways, that can be fun, particuarly when your group continuously manages to beat the odds.
Waiting on a new MMO to work out the kinks is always a good strategy, though!
Abbatoir / Abbatoir Cinq
Adnihilo
Beorn Judge's Edge
Somnulus
Perfect Black
----------------------
Asheron's Call / Asheron's Call 2
Everquest / Everquest 2
Anarchy Online
Shadowbane
Dark Age of Camelot
Star Wars Galaxies
Matrix Online
World of Warcraft
Guild Wars
City of Heroes
Heltern, give me a link to your level 15+ character in Vanguard.
My level 15 Ranger is in The Old Timers Guild on Hilsbury - the largest guild in Vanguard and even * I * can't find a group to save my life.
When and if I find a group its a goddamn crap shoot as to whether we'll make it 10-15 minutes without a 4-dot mob disappearing during a fight (but still attacking us/killing us/making us run the fuck back and get our corpses).
Even in the largest guild in Vanguard, I have yet to have a successful dungeon run. Every dungeon run I end up with LESS xp than I came in with OR significant XP debt.
I, for one, really LOVED Vanguard during the first 13 levels - enough that I played them 5 times. A Rhaki (fox), Half Elf, Barbarian (Varanjar, this is my 15 Ranger), Qualian Human, and Dwarf.
The 1-13 game most certainly is the best damn MMO online at the moment. Thereafter, it turns into a complete grind fest.
I'm all about a good challenge. I like things that are complicated (I'm a computer programmer by trade). But what I don't like is large ass time gind fests like Vanguard.
Even in UO (I'm talking 1998 UO, not this new crap) we actually felt a sense of accomplishment for grinding for 4-5 hours in a stint. There were no quests to speak of, you just ground the same damn mobs for hours. But you could actually SEE a difference when you did, that's what made it fun.
Not in Vanguard. Even at level 15 I ground for literally 2 hours and got one bubble of XP. If I were to die and was not able to recover my corpse I'd lose TWO FULL BUBBLES OF XP!! That's 4 fucking hours of grinding!
Games played:
Liked:
EVE (3 active accounts), WoW (62 Human Warrior, 60 Orc Shaman), UO (3x Grand Master), Neocron 2, Horizons, SWG Pre-NGE/CU, AO
I either just didn't like these or I lost interest and just quit:
SWG Post CU/NGE, L2, DAoC, RO, Ryzom, GW:P, EQ, EQII, DDO, AC, AA, CoH, and Vanguard: SoH.
I had a lot of hope for Ryzom because I really dig skill based systems (ala UO) but I couldn't get over the lack of people. This is one of those that I've resubbed (actually paid for) at least twice just to give it another go. I'll probably give it another shot sometime.
Waiting for: Darkfall.
Life of an MMORPG "addict"
For 7 years, proving that if you quote "fuck" you won't get banned.
We're really enjoying all the dungeon content, bugs & deaths to them not withstanding, and getting lots of quests and exploring the world etc done not just grinding in place - and yet my groups around lvl 27 right now, if anything the xp gain seems a little fast but nothing to really worry about.
Any game is a grind if you feel the need that as soon as you step foot in the world you have to make it to the level cap as fast as humanly possible. Take it from someone who played a real grinder like FFXI and a real bowl of easy like WoW, taking a long time to level isn't such a bad thing. The reward of hitting the level cap after a marathon is worth a lot more to you than after a sprint.
Also for the record, if you do your solo quests and a few group quests a week the xp rolls by and you don't even notice. I'm not a powergamer or hardcore grinder by any means and I've leveled diplomacy, crafting, harvesting and my ranger is level 22 in adventuring just playing at a nice pace since launch.
My definition of grind is If you have to go kill random mobs to level because there are no quests you can do in order progress.. When you have no other choice because you can't find a group or quests that is a grind. Not saying it does or doesnt happen in Vanguard. Not every game is a grind but most have those levels where you have very little choice.
If you want to level fast should not be the issue. It is what the game offers you to do so that creates a grind.
Yeah, I know exactly how you feel. I blew my hard earned money on WoW.
Yeah, I know exactly how you feel. I blew my hard earned money on WoW.
8.5 million people disagree.
Life of an MMORPG "addict"
For 7 years, proving that if you quote "fuck" you won't get banned.
"a truth known by actual experience or observation; something known to be true"
If enough people agree then it becomes fact. I think a lot of people agree.
Life of an MMORPG "addict"
For 7 years, proving that if you quote "fuck" you won't get banned.
Although grinding is not fun, I do not like playing games like WoW where a monkey with down's syndrome can reach max level in two weeks. The leveling system I have enjoyed most over my time gaming was Diablo 2. You could easily reach level 80, and play the game in full, but it took a good long time to reach level 99. Now, no one HAD to reach level 99 to play the game, but if you did you had obviously made quite the accomplishment (not to mention you'd find lots of great loot along the way).
Now, I don't play Vanguard, as it just wasn't what I was exactly looking for in an MMO (bugs were a big problem too), but they took a step in the right direction with longer leveling. Everyone at max level is not enjoyable, no matter how annoying the grind is to get there. You A-D-D'ers like the OP can simply cry as much as you want about it, but in the end I just think that you shouldn't be playing an MMO and trying to change MMO style gaming to console gaming. If you want Zelda that you can defeat in a week, go play Zelda. Quit ruining MMOs by trying to implement your A-D-D leveling scheme.
"a truth known by actual experience or observation; something known to be true"
If enough people agree then it becomes fact. I think a lot of people agree.
I'm glad thats what you THINK. I respect your opinion. My only problem with your post is the fact that you are talking about a completely SUBJECTIVE item and portraying it as fact. The "grind" if that's what you want to call it, has been an enjoyable one for me. I've met a lot of good people, experienced a lot of great content, and bagged some nice names so far. Sorry, I don't think a lot of people agree, most of them are probably to busy playing.