Howdy, Stranger!
It looks like you're new here. If you want to get involved, click one of these buttons!
Quick Links
Why do people think there is a "grind"?
brihtwulf
Member UncommonPosts: 975
I keep hearing people reference the "grind" in this game, and I have to say I just don't get it. I am the kind of person who plays lots of different characters, so it usually takes me a while to get up in levels. In this game, you can get to level 10 in A DAY. That is NOT a grind. Even after level 10, there are still an abundance of quests and things to do that keep your progress fairly smooth. I think the biggest problem is that the people who think it's a grind are so used to WoW that they can't see beyond it... Just because you can get to max level in WoW in a month or less doesn't mean that's a good thing. Comparing it to other games, I don't think Vanguard is more difficult or slower at all. It seems rather on par with the likes of EQ2. And I know some people will argue that "quests are just a way to cover up the grind" but you have to admit there is a difference between doing tasks that involve hunting or whatever vs. just pure hack-n-slash. If you want a grind, in both boredom and repitition, play Lineage 2. THEN tell me Vanguard is a grind.
Just because it's not WoW, doesn't mean it's not good.
Just because something's popular, doesn't mean it's the best.
...Too many people started playing WoW as their first MMO, and they expect every game to be just like it. THAT is why there are so many complaints about the "grind". People who started on a game like UO or EQ are going to enjoy the slower pace and the JOURNEY of playing and EXPERIENCING the world. So many people have forgotten playing MMOs should be FUN! It's not all about "pwning newbs" you know. Some people just like the online gaming experience, the roleplay, or being part of a fun and interesting community. If you're just out to "beat the game", stick to silge-player games like Oblivion. If you're just out to show your self-illusioned "superiority", do it with the rest of the crowd that plays FPS games. But if those aren't you, just sit back and enjoy the ride...
Comments
As a ref, my first MMO was UO back in beta 3.
eqnext.wikia.com
well heres a theory..............
Some people have no imagination. They take a few of the core mechanics of the game and repeat them ad nauseum. They do not bother to explore any of the other aspects of the game they juct concentrate on those that they feel will advance their character in levels the fastest while completely ignoring any of the rich lore, environment, social opportunities etc..... These people then proceed to bitch about the "grind" as though it was imposed on them instead of self inflicted
Bottom line is if you cry about what you dont have while ignoring the things you do then you simply fail at life period.
Critical thinking is a desire to seek, patience to doubt, fondness to meditate, slowness to assert, readiness to consider, carefulness to dispose and set in order; and hatred for every kind of imposture.
I dont consider it a grind either, there are way to many things to do and anyone that says its just kill this or kill that apparently has'nt done many quests.
When I first start playing each night I try and find a group, if within 15 min I dont find a group I run quests.. yes solo!! with a LFG above my head and eventually I start to get invites to groups.
I have done many different quests and not all of them are kill this or kill that, I have done delivery messages, find abducted children and extract different substances from different creatures to create a potion to cure something. Anyone who say's all the quests are kill this or that really hasnt been questing at all.
I have already found many new friends in the game and having a blast. I am a casual player since I have a life. (family, friends and a job) I play maybe an average of 3 or 4 hours a night if possible, sometimes less or even miss a day or 2. I have a lvl 18 druid which is my main and 6 other characters all at lvl 6 or higher.
If you go into the game thinking I am just gonna have fun and not worry about how fast your leveling you level faster then you think, after all isnt that why we play these games to have fun?
Out of every 100 men, 10 should not be there,
80 are nothing but targets, 9 are the real fighters.
Ah, but one, ONE of them is a warrior,
and he will bring the others home.
-Heraclitus 500BC
I don't think the 'grind' thing has anything to do with vanguard. The problem is alot of us have max out characters in other mmos and new mmos dont add enough new sutff to hide the dull button clicking.
People seem to assume that all the people who think VG is a grind are the ones obessed with levelling. I go at my own pace, taking in the lore and enjoying the sights and yet I still feel VG is a complete, unimaginative grind. It's just go to one place, do a bunch of kill x no. of creatures quests or deliver this or that item and once you're finished with that go to a new little area and do it all over again...and again...and again. There is no variation. Oh sure you can find a buddy and kill x number of creature and be errand boys & girls together! But that doesn't change the fact that the quests have zero spark to them; people are tired they want something new, especially since this is supposed to be a "third gen. MMORPG". That's what alot of people are getting at. Alot of people are complaining more about this particular game being a grind because it was supposed to be the MMO that was seperate from the pack and really push the genre to new levels. It isn't right now, hopefully it will, but right now its a big disappointment.
Grind = Same Old Sh*t + X Amount of Hours to Complete
Everything about this game is a grind. Crafting is an unnecessary busy work grind. So instead of pushing one button to make an item, I push the same 6-12 buttons and burn a few consumables. Yipee. Diplomacy, while thankfully at least new, becomes a grind. It would be a lot better if you could duel against other players and take their cards away. Dungeon crawling is a grind that either involves taking a number behind another group to down a named / boss or reclearing the same mobs over and over due to fast trash mob respawn. Questing is the same old unimaginative kill this, retrieve that grind. The game lore is probably one of the weakest aspects of the game by the way. Old "Choose Your Own Adventure" books had better writing than what I've seen in VANGUARD. Mob grinding, solo or grouped, is called that for a reason.
I had three characters over level 10. They were all extremely easy to level. Then I hit a wall at 14. I could have continued to progress at a slower pace, but I lost all interest. i realized I was getting sucked into something I had already been through. I started with ASHERON'S CALL back in '99 and that game was definitely a grind, but a lot more fun, perhaps because it was my first MMO and I had no expectations.
I agree that MMOs should be about community and having fun. But I can think of better ways of promoting both than to spend the majority of your time killing the same mobs over and over, doing a hundred repetitive missives, parlaying for no other reason but to level your diplo, or completing hundreds of work orders for making random junk to get your crafting skill high enough to actually make something useful.
If this stuff doesn't bother you than congrats, you've found the right game.
It's funny that no one actually answered your question, so I'll give it a go.
Grind can mean different things depending on the game, but grind typically means "repetious" and no fun- does the player have to go to the same area repeatedly, kill the same mobs repeatedly, is it a pain to level, is it like a job?
Raiding in EQ1 - was a full time job and you had to be "hard core" (read have no life) outside of the game, you can't tell me if you are working 8 hours and then playing for 6-8 hours that you have a normal social life, sorry your ditzy explanations on how you can do it all - doesn't fly with me.
Some players play to have fun, it's a "hobby" - they enjoy the journey, the quests, etc... while others like to play mmo's that are like a 2nd job, generally these are the same people who don't have a job or a life outside of a mmo.
Mmmo's thrive on this type of player, they restrict grouping re: level ranges, so that as you make friends ingame, you don't want to be left behind...
These people will piss and moan in forums about how it's not a grind, how they lead full productive lives, how this game isn't "on easy mode" like WoW but generally you will find Fan Boys playing 8, 12 or more hours a day.
They don't see the game as a grind or a 2nd job, because well they have a lot of free time on their hands.
I've seen them and played with them. They have no life outside of an mmo, no social skills - except what they percieve to be as interaction in vent or ts for a video game.
So there you have it - "hard core" players like grind and will go to great lengths to justify it, so they can be safe in their little virtual life, others like myself will call it for what it is, a "waste of a life" so I prefer games like WoW, Guild Wars and LOTRO - because heh, a game is nothing but that - a game.
And yah fan boys I've got better things to do with my time.
Wow..bitter much?
I hate to tell you this bud, but not everyone who has no life can blame it on a game. There are several types of people who have no social life: People who have to work 16 hours a day, people who have no money because they are supporting their unemployed friend and fiance, people with social stigma's like agoraphobia, etc.
I work anywhere between 10-16 hours a day. Part of my job has me sitting at my home computer waiting for doctors to read Xray exams. Guess what? since I have to wait for the exams to be read, I might as well be doing something I consider fun. I also have an un-employed fiance and friend, so it's not like I can afford to go out to the movies and drop 30 bucks just for the tickets not to mention popcorn, pop, candy. Going out to dinner is pretty much not going to happen either since my funds don't cover that either. Between my 1500 dollars a month in bills, I can only afford to play a game like this. So I make the best of it and i find one that is going to last. If this makes me a loser with no life, then I am sorry but some of us people live in the Real world.
Grind means leveling. When the game is leveling up, or getting that next skill, or to max out your chars xp,stats,skills,loot,money,ect...
there will be a grind. Any game, not just vanguard.
Its called a grind because in games like these, people will find the fastest most efficient way to level up, skill up, or gear up. Whether its doing quests, missions, killing mobs, raids, pvp rank, and so on. Then they will repeat these quests or missions over and over and over until they have obtained their goal. That WILL happen in any game like this, and after a certain amount of time it will become the standard way to do it.
When people refer to the "grind" in vanguard..they're referring to all the ways to level your toon in VG being the same ways as in any other game of this type. Whether or not the grind is long, short, hard, or easy is subjective. It's still a grind. Its not bad or good.
If you actually LISTEN to the people complaining about the grind, and try an understand what they are saying rather than dismissing them immediately, you might see that they are just saying the "old way' has been played out. It has been milked for every cent of its worth. You cant hide the grind from players like you used to. People know right were to look for the way to grind in games and they know that that will become the standard even if its not intended to be. And it is turning more and more people off, and i doubt turns anyone on to a game..though there are a few i would assume. This is ALL games..not just VG. Vanguard is the new one, and its grind is pretty much out in the open for all to see, so obviously people are gonna complain about it. Once your doing something just to level or to get loot it ruins the fun of actually going through the motions and focuses everything on the reward and the anticipation of that reward. Which is where addiction comes into play and a little thing called 'dopamine'. But thats not a fact or anything..and besides the point anyway.
Games like wow, every little thing in the game was about grinding, but they hid it very well for the time it was released, and because the grind was less notable, it was considered to be an "easy" grind..even though they were actually grinding just as much and even more in some cases. Much more in others.
the grind is there in vanguard, just like every other game. They just didnt bullshit anybody about it..which is cool IMO.
whether is hard or easy or whatever..no one will be exactly the same and opinions will differ. Personally i think WOW was more of a grind than VG..VG just takes longer cause the quests arent spoon fed to you. You have to explore some to find them, where as in WOW they were used to force you to explore. It's the same thing. Arguing over whether the grind is easier or harder is useless and a distraction to the fact that you're doing it all for no reason that has any effect at all on the game...and the game is just about completing all the grinds until youre done. Then you quit if you can and move on to another one. Hopefully VG will add the content that has nothing to do with obtaining levels or loot. Like, i dunno..some tools for players to create their own content or something. But as long as the only point is to "max' out...the complaints of teh grind will always be there.
My point is..arguing over this is pointless. More people grow tired of the grind every day. Everyone will eventually(i would hope). So expect more complaints about grinding in the future. Especially level based grinds. And lets not be fooled into thinking grinding anything, whether hard or easy, means anything other than time sink and a milking device hooked directly to you credit card.
Its the community playing together, making friends and being entertained and having people to share in that entertainment that will determine most of your success. Grinding only matters if you cant have fun doing it. Most of the people, myself included, have complained about a grind in a game, then found a group or the right group of people in game to do it with, and end up having a blast doing the same things i was complaining about before.
See you in the dream..
The Fires from heaven, now as cold as ice. A rapid ascension tolls a heavy price.
This game IS a grind. Perhaps not as bad as some, but worse than most.
But that is not really the issue. The issue is that Brad said time after time that it would be an "interesting" grind.
It is not. It is boring.
Nearly all the quests are the same old kiil 9 rats and come back, or collect 10 spider guts and come back.
You can get to 10 very easily. from 10-14 or so it slows down a lot. At 15+ it REALLY slows down and gets to be more of an endurance race than fun.
The statement is often made that all games are a grind, and that is true to some extent. But in games like EQ2 and Eve Online, at least I can do different things along the way and see some real progress, even if not in levels.
Vg seems to be all about the levels. The quest rewards generally suck - I have done over 140 and have yet to actually USE one of the rewards. I can buy better from the broker for 5s or so.
Being a "grind" is far more than just the speed you level, it's about gameplay. Vanguard simply does not have interesting fights.. it's kill the same mob over and over and over and over. Even if it's a boss.. it fights the same as everything around it. WoW at least had interesting boss fights, to break up the grind, and you could tell that you had just fought a boss for reasons other than looking at the corpse and seeing it had a different name than the stuff around it.
"The Grind" is an intangible "feeling" people of different backgrounds and gamestyles will see differently. It is useless to argue about "feelings", as one person will feel differently about the same thing as someone else.
All rpg's are grinds. That is the very nature of an rpg. You start out as a nobody lvl 1 newb, and BUILD your skills/class/powers up to take on bigger challenges to BUILD your skills/class/powers to take on bigger challenges to ... Well, I think you get the picture. Now, certain rpgs hide the grind several ways.
Most single-player rpgs take you through a storyline that fits the level you're at, and you can do everything at your own pace. So, completing quests in a single player is a deliberate script written and you're just following a path. There are some rpgs that are "open", like Morrowwind and Oblivion, but it does exactly the same thing (one or more linear storylines) with other things thrown in "off the beaten track" to trick you into thinking you're "doing whatever you want to".
Now MMO's can still do this, but the very nature of the game doesn't lend well to linear storylines. When Joe Bob Skullcracker kills the evil villain that has been infesting the farmers with evil ants of crop-eating, evil villain pops again in a few minutes or hours and someone else can kill the SAME evil villain that has been infesting the farmers with evil ants of crop-eating. While following that particular quest/storyline can be fun and rewarding, it is "JUST A GRIND". No matter how many clowns and magicians entertain you in between, it's all the same. Some people just need more hand holding and "personal attention" than others.
Now personally, I've played just about every single MMO, PnP DnD, MUD, and single player out there (some longer than others) and truly there is absolutely nothing new in that respect. How do you raise fighting skill? YOU FIGHT. How do you raise crafting skills? YOU CRAFT. So whether it's whack a mole, or push a button, or jump up and down till you fall over, there just really isn't a lot of choices for "innovative gameplay" for MMO's. The arcade crowd is just going to have to concede the fact that, for now, MMO's are going to be based on using skills, or buying skills (through usage of skills
), to get more skills, to further your... wait for it... here it comes... you guessed it... skills. 
Vanguard opted for the slowing down of leveling, even though "no-lifers" are still going to superlevel through it (that's their choice), so that the veteran crowd could have a game for them. Most MMO's nowadays present little to no challenge, little to no true interaction in the world, and little to no community to build and react with. We're SOOOOO tired of theme park MMO's that throw pretty colors and non-logical gameplay that simply just does not satisfy. Some companies want to appeal to the "lowest common denominator" just make money. Well, I'll be honest, I don't want to play with "lowest common denominator". They all have their games, let them be and they can play for phat lewts for the rest of their lives for all I care.
I already know the tougher games are not going to be the most popular. I've played the popular games and they BLOW CHUNKS. Will Vanguard finally satisfy my need to influence the virtual world? Will it provide the challenge? I truly and honestly don't know. I'm willing to give it a chance. I gave EQ2 a chance, and they came pretty close, but then the cha-ching started and SOE opted to turn it into another theme park. So be it, I don't have to stick around with those type of players, I can move on. Complain all you like, but until this one turns into another mindless piece of garbage everyone seems to like, or they never fix it, and the servers fry, I'll be tooling around until something better comes along, or maybe this is the something better, and it will just take time. For now, I really like the graphics and the potential this game is offering. We'll just have to see how it goes.
"Granted thinking for yourself could be considered a timesink of shorter or longer duration depending on how smart..or how dumb you are."
"Granted thinking for yourself could be considered a timesink of shorter or longer duration depending on how smart..or how dumb you are."
also, brihtwulf, good post. damn i hate whiners and people who have to always find something to complain about.
btw, i haven't played this game yet, but i am going to try it out. it has to be better than WoW, EQ, etc... (yes i played both of those).
I hope you are not implying that Vanguard bosses and raid content compares to WoW raid content.... because if you are you are sadly mistaken. WoW raid content is the best ever seen in a game, period.
I come from a guild that was downing Nefarion before I quit. Yes I am saying that even low level bosses like Dailuk (only lvl 22) are at least on par with wow.
I hope you are not implying that Vanguard bosses and raid content compares to WoW raid content.... because if you are you are sadly mistaken. WoW raid content is the best ever seen in a game, period.
LOL OMG!! You almost made me cry. Thanks for that. See what I mean about "lowest common denominator"? That's rich. I haven't seen the raid content in Vanguard yet, but believe me, the raiding content in WoW is substandard, at best.
Well, MC, and Ony were pretty bland, I'll give you that. There were some pretty cool encounters in ZG, and AQ20, though. Never did get around to doing BWL, AQ40, or Naxx, though some of the fights in BWL did sound like they were going for something a bit different. I wouldn't say WoW's raid content is the best ever, though. Probably the best raid content I've encountered was in the Frontiers in DAoC, either taking, or defending keeps, in the pre-ToA era, but that's not an entirely fair comparison.
To remove repetetive processes from virtually any game or hobby would destroy it. Almost all the things we do for fun or relaxation are repetetive, from bowling, swimming, pool, soccer, basketball to knitting, woodcarving, gardening. Even just sitting round with friends chatting - all human activity is intensely repetetive. MMOs just formalise this in a more obvious way than some other ways of spending your time.
The real issue is, do you enjoy spending four hours a day in front of your computer screen, pretending you are killing ten wolves, handing in their teeth, getting 90 copper and heading out to kill ten bears? Personally, I do enjoy it, so I don't consider it a grind. I don;t prmarily do it to level up, I do it because I enjoy doing it.
I don't enjoy it because I have no other options , or nothing else going on in my life. Like most people I meet in game I have a full-time job (which I enjoy well enough), a family and friends (luckily my girlfriend plays MMOs too - that helps a lot), other hobbies and all the rest of the stuff non-gamers have. I enjoy MMOs because of the gameplay (the "grind", if you will), not in spite of it.
I like getting a task, completing it and being rewarded for it. It's simple, manageable and satisfying. I like doing it lots of times. I can chat while I do it, in-game, to people in my house and on the phone; I can listen to the radio or just let my mindwander. Particularly in Vanguard, where the scenery is so convincing, its like going out for a country walk without having to leave the house.
People who don't find kicking a ball about generally don;t choose to spend their time playing soccer; people who don't find performing repetetive tasks or actions relaxing probably should avoid MMOs.
I guess I have a different definition of grind than most people. For me a grind is the leveling process when I have run out of quests or cant find a group and I have no choice but to wander out in to the middle of a field and just kill everything I see for hours so I can get to the next level so I can get more quests. In the end quests are really no more than disguised grinding. While this may be true I enjoy questing. There is usually a nice chunk of xp at the end and a lot of quest have multiple parts and good story lines. If the game is set up right yopu really shouldn't have to grind to level. WoW's leveling system keeps the levels moving with out having to grind for huge amounts of time. WoW makes leveling fun and thats why the game is played by so many people. You can actually play for only a few hours a day and make progress. This makes the leveling process easier if easier = faster and more enjoyable.
I have played a lot of MMO's most are the "hardcore" style of game. Its all in what a person is looking for i guess. If you are looking for a huge leveling time sink you go with VG if you are a more casual gamer with only a few hours a day to play you go with wow.
I miss DAoC