not really a good review in my honest opinion.. cause they kept comparing it to WoW.. like WoW is the standard from which all should follow for it to be a good MMO. Makes no sense, that is like saying since N'Sync sold 10 million albums that if any other band wants to be successful and good, they should follow in the footsteps of N'Sync... that is complete assinine logic. corpse runs, xp debt, etc.. stuff they said was not fun, is fun to me, why? because it makes the game more challenge and keeps one more alert and focused while playing. cause the penalty for messing up hurts! of course some people dont like a 'challenge', which is fine and all... but that doesnt mean that stuff that is challenging isnt fun for others.
Weren't you paying attention? The reviewer acknowledged that comparing it to WoW was unfair, yet described why it was necessary, because - despite what the self-righteous love-to-hate-WoW-crowd say, WoW is a superbly well designed game. Vanguard borrows much from it - everything from the quests to the Interface, to the way many abilities work.
I just want to dispute this paragraph, vg did not copy everything from quests to the interface. WOW had the same type of quests as all the mmo's before it, was nothing new. All mmos will have the same basic principal, so all mmos will have people saying they copied something from such and such mmo. I've said it before, WoW was nothing revolutionary it did not bring anything new to the table it actually took away some of the newer type concepts in favor of easy mode. The only thing WoW had that most mmos didn't have was the moddable interface design. whehter we like it or not all mmos from wow all will have this same type of interface in some form or another. People just have to remember just because wow has 8 million subscribers does not mean that they invented the mmo. That is like saying Al Gore really invented the internet and had it in his "Lock Box" for all these years.
Dispute it you may, but look at the facts: The quest journal, is IDENTICAL to WoW. They've taken an exact copy. The way you track quests, is identical to WoW, the way you interact with NPCs is identical to WoW. Sure, other games had quests, and quest journals, but WoW's interface was at least a bit more refined than those other games, Vanguard's simply copies it. Other games are at least slightly different - VG's is a 100% copy. I'm not saying this is a bad thing, WoW's quest journal was perfect. Say what you want about the difficulty of the quests, but WoW perfected the MMO interface.
Also don't use terms like "easy mode", without explaining why WoW is easier than Vanguard. Because unless you are talking about getting the game to run well, there's no difference in difficulty. Same old time invested = uberness stuff.
the quest journal is part of the ui, i didn't dispute the interface part. the way you track quests in vg is yes like wow, but the way you track quests in wow is like eq2, it's the same in most mmo's i've played. The same goes for interacting npcs. you want them to do something other than right click and a dialogue window pops???? again it's the same in most mmo's nothing new. WOW had nothing new it did COPY all it's features from mmos before it and just streamlined it and made it really casual to appeal to the mass market..........................As far as the default interface goes with vg and wow, yes it did take the same concepts as wow's ui. who wouldnt? that was the one thing i liked about wow. so it was a smart decision to put something simliar in vg. like i said pretty much all mmo's will have this type of interface from now on in one form or another.
As far as being easy mode, in wow my first character playing about 10 hours a week, i got to 60 in less then a month, i played for 2 more months after that and played about the same amount of time a week, and had gotten i believe 3 more characters to 60 with 3 of the 4 having top tier equipment from raids, now if that isn't easy what is? i only had fun the first character, the other 3 i was thinking why am i playing still. The only thing about wow that was a time investment was the end game, 1-60 was simple and a 3 year old could do it. Another reason i say it was easy mode is wow held your hand through everything. There was nothing you had to use your brain to do cuz the game told you what to do. That is the biggest reason i say easy mode. There are other reasons too but it's been awhile since i played wow so not sure if things changed. Don't get me wrong i may seem like i'm bashing wow but i'm really not, it was a good game the first time through, after that it lost its appeal to me and so i went back to games like eq2 and eve-online.
VG doesn't not hold your hand after around lvl 10 once you leave the starting areas. One of my biggest reasons i play vg and probably will for awhile to come if they keep fixing stuff like they are.
You have completely missed the most basic point I was trying to make.
TIME DOES NOT EQUAL CHALLENGE.
Vanguard takes more time TIME. The quests are actually, WoW quests - because before WoW, quests weren't like what they are now in these games. Everquest used to have very different kinds of quests to what WoW offered - which are more like tasks.
Vanguard is the watered-down beer of the MMORPG genre, what other MMORPGs offer, Vanguard dilutes it with time.
You haven't given me an example of difference in challenge as opposed to a goal simply taking longer to reach.
And you say that you reached level 60 in WoW in less than 40 hours played, with your first character. That is a lie.
Still waiting for your Holy Grail MMORPG? Interesting...
Wow, that was a real good read. Reminds me of what a friend would tell me about a game he tried as opposed to the opinion of a complete stranger. If I buy a game and realize its poop, I suck up the $50 dollar loss and let me friends know to stay away. When I get good game I'll rave all day and night. And if they try it and hate it, well - my friends are being stupid. Nah, just kidding!
It's just weird to me how people get these emotional attatchments to some of these games and the companies that make them. I feel, if you like a game or not, cool - lemme know why, thanks for the info. DONE. People preaching for their favorite video games just gets so silly. (BUT, it's also the reason I love reading the forums here while I'm at work. I'm a sucker for good drama! ;P )
not really a good review in my honest opinion.. cause they kept comparing it to WoW.. like WoW is the standard from which all should follow for it to be a good MMO. Makes no sense, that is like saying since N'Sync sold 10 million albums that if any other band wants to be successful and good, they should follow in the footsteps of N'Sync... that is complete assinine logic. corpse runs, xp debt, etc.. stuff they said was not fun, is fun to me, why? because it makes the game more challenge and keeps one more alert and focused while playing. cause the penalty for messing up hurts! of course some people dont like a 'challenge', which is fine and all... but that doesnt mean that stuff that is challenging isnt fun for others.
Weren't you paying attention? The reviewer acknowledged that comparing it to WoW was unfair, yet described why it was necessary, because - despite what the self-righteous love-to-hate-WoW-crowd say, WoW is a superbly well designed game. Vanguard borrows much from it - everything from the quests to the Interface, to the way many abilities work.
I just want to dispute this paragraph, vg did not copy everything from quests to the interface. WOW had the same type of quests as all the mmo's before it, was nothing new. All mmos will have the same basic principal, so all mmos will have people saying they copied something from such and such mmo. I've said it before, WoW was nothing revolutionary it did not bring anything new to the table it actually took away some of the newer type concepts in favor of easy mode. The only thing WoW had that most mmos didn't have was the moddable interface design. whehter we like it or not all mmos from wow all will have this same type of interface in some form or another. People just have to remember just because wow has 8 million subscribers does not mean that they invented the mmo. That is like saying Al Gore really invented the internet and had it in his "Lock Box" for all these years.
Dispute it you may, but look at the facts: The quest journal, is IDENTICAL to WoW. They've taken an exact copy. The way you track quests, is identical to WoW, the way you interact with NPCs is identical to WoW. Sure, other games had quests, and quest journals, but WoW's interface was at least a bit more refined than those other games, Vanguard's simply copies it. Other games are at least slightly different - VG's is a 100% copy. I'm not saying this is a bad thing, WoW's quest journal was perfect. Say what you want about the difficulty of the quests, but WoW perfected the MMO interface.
Also don't use terms like "easy mode", without explaining why WoW is easier than Vanguard. Because unless you are talking about getting the game to run well, there's no difference in difficulty. Same old time invested = uberness stuff.
the quest journal is part of the ui, i didn't dispute the interface part. the way you track quests in vg is yes like wow, but the way you track quests in wow is like eq2, it's the same in most mmo's i've played. The same goes for interacting npcs. you want them to do something other than right click and a dialogue window pops???? again it's the same in most mmo's nothing new. WOW had nothing new it did COPY all it's features from mmos before it and just streamlined it and made it really casual to appeal to the mass market..........................As far as the default interface goes with vg and wow, yes it did take the same concepts as wow's ui. who wouldnt? that was the one thing i liked about wow. so it was a smart decision to put something simliar in vg. like i said pretty much all mmo's will have this type of interface from now on in one form or another.
As far as being easy mode, in wow my first character playing about 10 hours a week, i got to 60 in less then a month, i played for 2 more months after that and played about the same amount of time a week, and had gotten i believe 3 more characters to 60 with 3 of the 4 having top tier equipment from raids, now if that isn't easy what is? i only had fun the first character, the other 3 i was thinking why am i playing still. The only thing about wow that was a time investment was the end game, 1-60 was simple and a 3 year old could do it. Another reason i say it was easy mode is wow held your hand through everything. There was nothing you had to use your brain to do cuz the game told you what to do. That is the biggest reason i say easy mode. There are other reasons too but it's been awhile since i played wow so not sure if things changed. Don't get me wrong i may seem like i'm bashing wow but i'm really not, it was a good game the first time through, after that it lost its appeal to me and so i went back to games like eq2 and eve-online.
VG doesn't not hold your hand after around lvl 10 once you leave the starting areas. One of my biggest reasons i play vg and probably will for awhile to come if they keep fixing stuff like they are.
You have completely missed the most basic point I was trying to make.
TIME DOES NOT EQUAL CHALLENGE.
Vanguard takes more time TIME. The quests are actually, WoW quests - because before WoW, quests weren't like what they are now in these games. Everquest used to have very different kinds of quests to what WoW offered - which are more like tasks.
Vanguard is the watered-down beer of the MMORPG genre, what other MMORPGs offer, Vanguard dilutes it with time.
You haven't given me an example of difference in challenge as opposed to a goal simply taking longer to reach.
what may not be more of a challenge to you is to others, but for instance,
Wow - all mobs were easy to kill, each seperate area had it's own lvl score, 1-10 in starters, 10-20 in the neighboring zone and so on with no surprises, you always knew what to expect.
VG - generally the areas are kept to a lvl range but with some surprises, in one starting area which is usually where the 1-10's hang out, there's a lvl 15 5dot(Full group) mob that roams the main roads and surrounding areas. also the mobs tend to be harder to kill (TO ME anyways)
wow - held your hand with each quest leading you to another quest and eventually to a different zone all the way to the end game.
vg - With the exception of the starting area, does not hold your hand, you have to actually search and use your brain.
WoW - no strategy to combat, the same combat chain works for every mob.
VG - combat has strategy, the same combat chain that may work for one mob, may not work for the same mob a lvl higher and again you have to use your brain and throw in another move into your chain.
WoW - no variety in classes they all felt the same, so you play one class you basicly played all classes.
VG - Each class is different and again takes different strategies to effectively play.
WoW - who cares if you died?
VG - I died oh Sh*T. Vg's death penalty makes you pay more attention and again get more involved in the game world. while this may be a pain for some, i for one like it, as i tend to not die anyways and when i do it's my own stupidity for not paying attention for a wondering mob thats say 6 lvls higher and is a 5 dot'er
i could go on and on for awhile but i really don't like to type or read for that matter and i'm actually at home from work now so i don't feel like wasting more time typing instead of playing
Think about it. If you are a developer trying to sell your game to someone to market, what will be their first question? Something along the line of "Can't we be like that other MMO WOW"? If not, then why?
nope not at all.. if I were the developer I would use the BUFU philosophy, which equals By Us, F! U, meaning this is 'our' game and 'our' vision if you dont like, then dont play so STFU! Of course I would already know that I would NOT get the numbers that WoW is getting.. but thats okay... I would not sacrifice my vision for money and be a greedy little F'tard.
Originally posted by Kcissem what may not be more of a challenge to you is to others, but for instance, Wow - all mobs were easy to kill, each seperate area had it's own lvl score, 1-10 in starters, 10-20 in the neighboring zone and so on with no surprises, you always knew what to expect. VG - generally the areas are kept to a lvl range but with some surprises, in one starting area which is usually where the 1-10's hang out, there's a lvl 15 5dot(Full group) mob that roams the main roads and surrounding areas. also the mobs tend to be harder to kill (TO ME anyways) True cant argue there, but TBC does have more roaming elite mobs that u need to watch for. And you could always take a party into a high lvl area and have some fun... nothing stoping you doing that.
wow - held your hand with each quest leading you to another quest and eventually to a different zone all the way to the end game. vg - With the exception of the starting area, does not hold your hand, you have to actually search and use your brain. Yup thats true, but you did not have to follow the quests, you could always go off and do ya own thing. WoW offers to hold you hand it does not force you too.
WoW - no strategy to combat, the same combat chain works for every mob. VG - combat has strategy, the same combat chain that may work for one mob, may not work for the same mob a lvl higher and again you have to use your brain and throw in another move into your chain.
Not true, some mobs are immune to some attacks, can fear you, root you, call for help etc. As a hunter i might send my pet and nuke from range, but some mobs will fear my pet and come for me, it might spwn adds and those come for me, Mobs in TBC are far tougher than original WoW. You can by no means do the same sequence on all mobs. Also rememeber your new to VG, once your old to the skills you'll fall into the same sequence for different mobs just as people do for WoW and other MMO's.
WoW - no variety in classes they all felt the same, so you play one class you basicly played all classes. VG - Each class is different and again takes different strategies to effectively play. Again not true, unless your warrior can heal me or your warrior can sheep that mob or your warrior can let loose a barrage of arrows or your warrior can chain fear a mob.... etc. Even VG classes fall into 3 catorgies, Tank, DPS, Healer.
VG might have 15 classes, but WoW has many hybrid classes, a druid can spec to be a healer, DPS(rogue) or Tank. A warrior can be an aggro tank or a mean DPS player, a preists is not just a healer but can be specced to be one of the most mean DPS classes in the game and so on, the 2.0.1 patch realy made a difference to classes and the way they spec. My main is a hunter has been for 14months, i rolled a draeni alt priest in TBC but I must say at lvl 20 I sux, I always run out of mana becuase I use spells to much etc. And solo PvE I die more than I care to remember.
WoW - who cares if you died? VG - I died oh Sh*T. Vg's death penalty makes you pay more attention and again get more involved in the game world. while this may be a pain for some, i for one like it, as i tend to not die anyways and when i do it's my own stupidity for not paying attention for a wondering mob thats say 6 lvls higher and is a 5 dot'er I care, you dont loose XP (and at max cap what use is that) but you have to pay for repairs, you have to spend time running to your corpse with no ganrentee it will be safe to res at... thats enough of penalty for me thankyou, not 1 review has said its great fun corpse running in VG.
i could go on and on for awhile but i really don't like to type or read for that matter and i'm actually at home from work now so i don't feel like wasting more time typing instead of playing
I don't think the review was all that great. He gives 'black marks' for corpse runs. He obviously likes his games easy with little encouragement to play well. Plus he gives it a 'black marks' for forced grouping, which is BS - you can solo if you like.
Pretty balanced review. However, two things he didn't like are two things that drew me to Vanguard.
1) No instancing. I looked forward to EQ2 like you wouldn't believe and thought instancing sounded pretty good. But in the end, instancing went a long way in ruining EQ2 for me. It took the immersive feeling right out of the game for me. The last time I played EQ2 was 'clicking' on Blackburrow and seeing a choice of about 18 instances. Pathetic.
2) Corpse-runs. Personally, the fear of death get's the blood-pumping and the hands sweating. In WoW, death was a non-event... I never felt like anything was at stake in any given encounter or adventure.
I think there should be a stiff death penalty. Also he seem to say that you had to do a Corpse Run, but you dont. If fact if you do a corpse run the penalty is minimal. It is stiff you dont do one and summons at the altar. He didnt mention that you could just summons your corpse at altar.
As where as the quest not letting you know if it is group or not. They do. If the Quest name has ( Group ) after it, well then it is a group quest.
Also, I am a 19 level bard and I solo alot, killing vampires in MistHaven Crossing as a example. He was acting as if you could not solo at all after early levels. Maybe he is talking 20-50. But I had heard you couldnt solo after 10 before I played, and that was entirely false.
And I can understand comparing a games success to WoW. It has without a doubt set the bar. But the game play is different between wow and VG. So a comparsion in game play would indeed show differences which some will not like and others will like. He we leaning toward all MMOs being WoW clones!! In several ways he said VG trumphed other MMOs and in several ways VG was lacking, both are true. And this is only VG's first month .
Overall a good review, IMHO.
You never really know where alot of games are going until they get there.
Originally posted by Kcissem what may not be more of a challenge to you is to others, but for instance, Wow - all mobs were easy to kill, each seperate area had it's own lvl score, 1-10 in starters, 10-20 in the neighboring zone and so on with no surprises, you always knew what to expect. VG - generally the areas are kept to a lvl range but with some surprises, in one starting area which is usually where the 1-10's hang out, there's a lvl 15 5dot(Full group) mob that roams the main roads and surrounding areas. also the mobs tend to be harder to kill (TO ME anyways) True cant argue there, but TBC does have more roaming elite mobs that u need to watch for. And you could always take a party into a high lvl area and have some fun... nothing stoping you doing that.
wow - held your hand with each quest leading you to another quest and eventually to a different zone all the way to the end game. vg - With the exception of the starting area, does not hold your hand, you have to actually search and use your brain. Yup thats true, but you did not have to follow the quests, you could always go off and do ya own thing. WoW offers to hold you hand it does not force you too.
WoW - no strategy to combat, the same combat chain works for every mob. VG - combat has strategy, the same combat chain that may work for one mob, may not work for the same mob a lvl higher and again you have to use your brain and throw in another move into your chain.
Not true, some mobs are immune to some attacks, can fear you, root you, call for help etc. As a hunter i might send my pet and nuke from range, but some mobs will fear my pet and come for me, it might spwn adds and those come for me, Mobs in TBC are far tougher than original WoW. You can by no means do the same sequence on all mobs. Also rememeber your new to VG, once your old to the skills you'll fall into the same sequence for different mobs just as people do for WoW and other MMO's.
WoW - no variety in classes they all felt the same, so you play one class you basicly played all classes. VG - Each class is different and again takes different strategies to effectively play. Again not true, unless your warrior can heal me or your warrior can sheep that mob or your warrior can let loose a barrage of arrows or your warrior can chain fear a mob.... etc. Even VG classes fall into 3 catorgies, Tank, DPS, Healer.
VG might have 15 classes, but WoW has many hybrid classes, a druid can spec to be a healer, DPS(rogue) or Tank. A warrior can be an aggro tank or a mean DPS player, a preists is not just a healer but can be specced to be one of the most mean DPS classes in the game and so on, the 2.0.1 patch realy made a difference to classes and the way they spec. My main is a hunter has been for 14months, i rolled a draeni alt priest in TBC but I must say at lvl 20 I sux, I always run out of mana becuase I use spells to much etc. And solo PvE I die more than I care to remember.
WoW - who cares if you died? VG - I died oh Sh*T. Vg's death penalty makes you pay more attention and again get more involved in the game world. while this may be a pain for some, i for one like it, as i tend to not die anyways and when i do it's my own stupidity for not paying attention for a wondering mob thats say 6 lvls higher and is a 5 dot'er I care, you dont loose XP (and at max cap what use is that) but you have to pay for repairs, you have to spend time running to your corpse with no ganrentee it will be safe to res at... thats enough of penalty for me thankyou, not 1 review has said its great fun corpse running in VG.
i could go on and on for awhile but i really don't like to type or read for that matter and i'm actually at home from work now so i don't feel like wasting more time typing instead of playing
Red text guy, have to played VG? So many of you points are just not true.
"1) No instancing. I looked forward to EQ2 like you wouldn't believe and thought instancing sounded pretty good. But in the end, instancing went a long way in ruining EQ2 for me. It took the immersive feeling right out of the game for me. The last time I played EQ2 was 'clicking' on Blackburrow and seeing a choice of about 18 instances. Pathetic."
Quoted for teh f'in win!
Not to mention that EXACT SAME zone being filled with different mobs and passed off as a totally seperate zone.
You come to a dungeon entrance..you get a choice of like 4 different iterations of the exact same zone...one meant for solo, one meant for groups, one tougher for groups, and one meant for raids. Wow that is so immersive!
Ability to solo to some acceptable degree is essential to mmorpg and most mmorpg have since learnt that .The formulae is simple but works.Give player an ability to do some soloing quest and levelling but at a slower rate with less reward then grouping.It works!
Are you seriously suggesting you can't solo? Every class in VG can solo and accomplish quests, VG is massively more solo friendly than EQ1 ever was, I think you are repeating baseless fallacies just because others have banged the "EQ3 means grouping" bell and you're spouting group-think with no personal experience or reference to draw on. Sorry to be harsh but my disc, now one of the weakest classes in the game post rebalance can still solo quests quite happily all day long if I want in the 30's.
Sorry bud but i been on this forum to only post when i try a game out.
While nothing can be as unfriendly as EQ1 pre pop in soloing vanguard even at earlier levels is already showing poor soloing abilities.
The game has potential and i be back but it needs many issues addressed.
Originally posted by Kcissem what may not be more of a challenge to you is to others, but for instance, Wow - all mobs were easy to kill, each seperate area had it's own lvl score, 1-10 in starters, 10-20 in the neighboring zone and so on with no surprises, you always knew what to expect. VG - generally the areas are kept to a lvl range but with some surprises, in one starting area which is usually where the 1-10's hang out, there's a lvl 15 5dot(Full group) mob that roams the main roads and surrounding areas. also the mobs tend to be harder to kill (TO ME anyways) True cant argue there, but TBC does have more roaming elite mobs that u need to watch for. And you could always take a party into a high lvl area and have some fun... nothing stoping you doing that.
wow - held your hand with each quest leading you to another quest and eventually to a different zone all the way to the end game. vg - With the exception of the starting area, does not hold your hand, you have to actually search and use your brain. Yup thats true, but you did not have to follow the quests, you could always go off and do ya own thing. WoW offers to hold you hand it does not force you too.
WoW - no strategy to combat, the same combat chain works for every mob. VG - combat has strategy, the same combat chain that may work for one mob, may not work for the same mob a lvl higher and again you have to use your brain and throw in another move into your chain.
Not true, some mobs are immune to some attacks, can fear you, root you, call for help etc. As a hunter i might send my pet and nuke from range, but some mobs will fear my pet and come for me, it might spwn adds and those come for me, Mobs in TBC are far tougher than original WoW. You can by no means do the same sequence on all mobs. Also rememeber your new to VG, once your old to the skills you'll fall into the same sequence for different mobs just as people do for WoW and other MMO's.
WoW - no variety in classes they all felt the same, so you play one class you basicly played all classes. VG - Each class is different and again takes different strategies to effectively play. Again not true, unless your warrior can heal me or your warrior can sheep that mob or your warrior can let loose a barrage of arrows or your warrior can chain fear a mob.... etc. Even VG classes fall into 3 catorgies, Tank, DPS, Healer.
VG might have 15 classes, but WoW has many hybrid classes, a druid can spec to be a healer, DPS(rogue) or Tank. A warrior can be an aggro tank or a mean DPS player, a preists is not just a healer but can be specced to be one of the most mean DPS classes in the game and so on, the 2.0.1 patch realy made a difference to classes and the way they spec. My main is a hunter has been for 14months, i rolled a draeni alt priest in TBC but I must say at lvl 20 I sux, I always run out of mana becuase I use spells to much etc. And solo PvE I die more than I care to remember.
WoW - who cares if you died? VG - I died oh Sh*T. Vg's death penalty makes you pay more attention and again get more involved in the game world. while this may be a pain for some, i for one like it, as i tend to not die anyways and when i do it's my own stupidity for not paying attention for a wondering mob thats say 6 lvls higher and is a 5 dot'er I care, you dont loose XP (and at max cap what use is that) but you have to pay for repairs, you have to spend time running to your corpse with no ganrentee it will be safe to res at... thats enough of penalty for me thankyou, not 1 review has said its great fun corpse running in VG.
i could go on and on for awhile but i really don't like to type or read for that matter and i'm actually at home from work now so i don't feel like wasting more time typing instead of playing
Red text guy, have to played VG? So many of you points are just not true.
Hey, Tacola, English is either not your native language or you have a reading impairment or (more likely) you're a knee-jerk Vanboi. The Red Text Guy's comments HAD NOTHING TO DO WITH PLAYING VANGUARD for the most part. The Red Text Guy's comments had EVERYTHING TO DO WITH HOW WOW PLAYS.
In other words, unless you're saying his points ABOUT WOW are not true, you probably didn't even read his comments and just instinctively went to the standard Vanboi talking point of accusing someone of lying about the game.
Jeezus, I personally have no problem with Vanguard as a game (aside from the performance issues), but the irrational Vanboism is giving me a very negative impression about the community.
Comments
I just want to dispute this paragraph, vg did not copy everything from quests to the interface. WOW had the same type of quests as all the mmo's before it, was nothing new. All mmos will have the same basic principal, so all mmos will have people saying they copied something from such and such mmo. I've said it before, WoW was nothing revolutionary it did not bring anything new to the table it actually took away some of the newer type concepts in favor of easy mode. The only thing WoW had that most mmos didn't have was the moddable interface design. whehter we like it or not all mmos from wow all will have this same type of interface in some form or another. People just have to remember just because wow has 8 million subscribers does not mean that they invented the mmo. That is like saying Al Gore really invented the internet and had it in his "Lock Box" for all these years.
Dispute it you may, but look at the facts: The quest journal, is IDENTICAL to WoW. They've taken an exact copy. The way you track quests, is identical to WoW, the way you interact with NPCs is identical to WoW. Sure, other games had quests, and quest journals, but WoW's interface was at least a bit more refined than those other games, Vanguard's simply copies it. Other games are at least slightly different - VG's is a 100% copy. I'm not saying this is a bad thing, WoW's quest journal was perfect. Say what you want about the difficulty of the quests, but WoW perfected the MMO interface.
Also don't use terms like "easy mode", without explaining why WoW is easier than Vanguard. Because unless you are talking about getting the game to run well, there's no difference in difficulty. Same old time invested = uberness stuff.
the quest journal is part of the ui, i didn't dispute the interface part. the way you track quests in vg is yes like wow, but the way you track quests in wow is like eq2, it's the same in most mmo's i've played. The same goes for interacting npcs. you want them to do something other than right click and a dialogue window pops???? again it's the same in most mmo's nothing new. WOW had nothing new it did COPY all it's features from mmos before it and just streamlined it and made it really casual to appeal to the mass market..........................As far as the default interface goes with vg and wow, yes it did take the same concepts as wow's ui. who wouldnt? that was the one thing i liked about wow. so it was a smart decision to put something simliar in vg. like i said pretty much all mmo's will have this type of interface from now on in one form or another.
As far as being easy mode, in wow my first character playing about 10 hours a week, i got to 60 in less then a month, i played for 2 more months after that and played about the same amount of time a week, and had gotten i believe 3 more characters to 60 with 3 of the 4 having top tier equipment from raids, now if that isn't easy what is? i only had fun the first character, the other 3 i was thinking why am i playing still. The only thing about wow that was a time investment was the end game, 1-60 was simple and a 3 year old could do it. Another reason i say it was easy mode is wow held your hand through everything. There was nothing you had to use your brain to do cuz the game told you what to do. That is the biggest reason i say easy mode. There are other reasons too but it's been awhile since i played wow so not sure if things changed. Don't get me wrong i may seem like i'm bashing wow but i'm really not, it was a good game the first time through, after that it lost its appeal to me and so i went back to games like eq2 and eve-online.
VG doesn't not hold your hand after around lvl 10 once you leave the starting areas. One of my biggest reasons i play vg and probably will for awhile to come if they keep fixing stuff like they are.
You have completely missed the most basic point I was trying to make.
TIME DOES NOT EQUAL CHALLENGE.
Vanguard takes more time TIME. The quests are actually, WoW quests - because before WoW, quests weren't like what they are now in these games. Everquest used to have very different kinds of quests to what WoW offered - which are more like tasks.
Vanguard is the watered-down beer of the MMORPG genre, what other MMORPGs offer, Vanguard dilutes it with time.
You haven't given me an example of difference in challenge as opposed to a goal simply taking longer to reach.
And you say that you reached level 60 in WoW in less than 40 hours played, with your first character. That is a lie.
Still waiting for your Holy Grail MMORPG? Interesting...
Wow, that was a real good read. Reminds me of what a friend would tell me about a game he tried as opposed to the opinion of a complete stranger. If I buy a game and realize its poop, I suck up the $50 dollar loss and let me friends know to stay away. When I get good game I'll rave all day and night. And if they try it and hate it, well - my friends are being stupid.
Nah, just kidding! 
It's just weird to me how people get these emotional attatchments to some of these games and the companies that make them. I feel, if you like a game or not, cool - lemme know why, thanks for the info. DONE. People preaching for their favorite video games just gets so silly. (BUT, it's also the reason I love reading the forums here while I'm at work. I'm a sucker for good drama! ;P )
I just want to dispute this paragraph, vg did not copy everything from quests to the interface. WOW had the same type of quests as all the mmo's before it, was nothing new. All mmos will have the same basic principal, so all mmos will have people saying they copied something from such and such mmo. I've said it before, WoW was nothing revolutionary it did not bring anything new to the table it actually took away some of the newer type concepts in favor of easy mode. The only thing WoW had that most mmos didn't have was the moddable interface design. whehter we like it or not all mmos from wow all will have this same type of interface in some form or another. People just have to remember just because wow has 8 million subscribers does not mean that they invented the mmo. That is like saying Al Gore really invented the internet and had it in his "Lock Box" for all these years.
Dispute it you may, but look at the facts: The quest journal, is IDENTICAL to WoW. They've taken an exact copy. The way you track quests, is identical to WoW, the way you interact with NPCs is identical to WoW. Sure, other games had quests, and quest journals, but WoW's interface was at least a bit more refined than those other games, Vanguard's simply copies it. Other games are at least slightly different - VG's is a 100% copy. I'm not saying this is a bad thing, WoW's quest journal was perfect. Say what you want about the difficulty of the quests, but WoW perfected the MMO interface.
Also don't use terms like "easy mode", without explaining why WoW is easier than Vanguard. Because unless you are talking about getting the game to run well, there's no difference in difficulty. Same old time invested = uberness stuff.
the quest journal is part of the ui, i didn't dispute the interface part. the way you track quests in vg is yes like wow, but the way you track quests in wow is like eq2, it's the same in most mmo's i've played. The same goes for interacting npcs. you want them to do something other than right click and a dialogue window pops???? again it's the same in most mmo's nothing new. WOW had nothing new it did COPY all it's features from mmos before it and just streamlined it and made it really casual to appeal to the mass market..........................As far as the default interface goes with vg and wow, yes it did take the same concepts as wow's ui. who wouldnt? that was the one thing i liked about wow. so it was a smart decision to put something simliar in vg. like i said pretty much all mmo's will have this type of interface from now on in one form or another.
As far as being easy mode, in wow my first character playing about 10 hours a week, i got to 60 in less then a month, i played for 2 more months after that and played about the same amount of time a week, and had gotten i believe 3 more characters to 60 with 3 of the 4 having top tier equipment from raids, now if that isn't easy what is? i only had fun the first character, the other 3 i was thinking why am i playing still. The only thing about wow that was a time investment was the end game, 1-60 was simple and a 3 year old could do it. Another reason i say it was easy mode is wow held your hand through everything. There was nothing you had to use your brain to do cuz the game told you what to do. That is the biggest reason i say easy mode. There are other reasons too but it's been awhile since i played wow so not sure if things changed. Don't get me wrong i may seem like i'm bashing wow but i'm really not, it was a good game the first time through, after that it lost its appeal to me and so i went back to games like eq2 and eve-online.
VG doesn't not hold your hand after around lvl 10 once you leave the starting areas. One of my biggest reasons i play vg and probably will for awhile to come if they keep fixing stuff like they are.
You have completely missed the most basic point I was trying to make.
TIME DOES NOT EQUAL CHALLENGE.
Vanguard takes more time TIME. The quests are actually, WoW quests - because before WoW, quests weren't like what they are now in these games. Everquest used to have very different kinds of quests to what WoW offered - which are more like tasks.
Vanguard is the watered-down beer of the MMORPG genre, what other MMORPGs offer, Vanguard dilutes it with time.
You haven't given me an example of difference in challenge as opposed to a goal simply taking longer to reach.
what may not be more of a challenge to you is to others, but for instance,
Wow - all mobs were easy to kill, each seperate area had it's own lvl score, 1-10 in starters, 10-20 in the neighboring zone and so on with no surprises, you always knew what to expect.
VG - generally the areas are kept to a lvl range but with some surprises, in one starting area which is usually where the 1-10's hang out, there's a lvl 15 5dot(Full group) mob that roams the main roads and surrounding areas. also the mobs tend to be harder to kill (TO ME anyways)
wow - held your hand with each quest leading you to another quest and eventually to a different zone all the way to the end game.
vg - With the exception of the starting area, does not hold your hand, you have to actually search and use your brain.
WoW - no strategy to combat, the same combat chain works for every mob.
VG - combat has strategy, the same combat chain that may work for one mob, may not work for the same mob a lvl higher and again you have to use your brain and throw in another move into your chain.
WoW - no variety in classes they all felt the same, so you play one class you basicly played all classes.
VG - Each class is different and again takes different strategies to effectively play.
WoW - who cares if you died?
VG - I died oh Sh*T. Vg's death penalty makes you pay more attention and again get more involved in the game world. while this may be a pain for some, i for one like it, as i tend to not die anyways and when i do it's my own stupidity for not paying attention for a wondering mob thats say 6 lvls higher and is a 5 dot'er
i could go on and on for awhile but i really don't like to type or read for that matter and i'm actually at home from work now so i don't feel like wasting more time typing instead of playing
nope not at all.. if I were the developer I would use the BUFU philosophy, which equals By Us, F! U, meaning this is 'our' game and 'our' vision if you dont like, then dont play so STFU! Of course I would already know that I would NOT get the numbers that WoW is getting.. but thats okay... I would not sacrifice my vision for money and be a greedy little F'tard.
Pretty balanced review. However, two things he didn't like are two things that drew me to Vanguard.
1) No instancing. I looked forward to EQ2 like you wouldn't believe and thought instancing sounded pretty good. But in the end, instancing went a long way in ruining EQ2 for me. It took the immersive feeling right out of the game for me. The last time I played EQ2 was 'clicking' on Blackburrow and seeing a choice of about 18 instances. Pathetic.
2) Corpse-runs. Personally, the fear of death get's the blood-pumping and the hands sweating. In WoW, death was a non-event... I never felt like anything was at stake in any given encounter or adventure.
Good review indeed,
but I do have acouple issues with it:
I think there should be a stiff death penalty. Also he seem to say that you had to do a Corpse Run, but you dont. If fact if you do a corpse run the penalty is minimal. It is stiff you dont do one and summons at the altar. He didnt mention that you could just summons your corpse at altar.
As where as the quest not letting you know if it is group or not. They do. If the Quest name has ( Group ) after it, well then it is a group quest.
Also, I am a 19 level bard and I solo alot, killing vampires in MistHaven Crossing as a example. He was acting as if you could not solo at all after early levels. Maybe he is talking 20-50. But I had heard you couldnt solo after 10 before I played, and that was entirely false.
And I can understand comparing a games success to WoW. It has without a doubt set the bar. But the game play is different between wow and VG. So a comparsion in game play would indeed show differences which some will not like and others will like. He we leaning toward all MMOs being WoW clones!! In several ways he said VG trumphed other MMOs and in several ways VG was lacking, both are true. And this is only VG's first month
.
Overall a good review, IMHO.
You never really know where alot of games are going until they get there.
Quoted for teh f'in win!
Not to mention that EXACT SAME zone being filled with different mobs and passed off as a totally seperate zone.
You come to a dungeon entrance..you get a choice of like 4 different iterations of the exact same zone...one meant for solo, one meant for groups, one tougher for groups, and one meant for raids. Wow that is so immersive!
Sorry bud but i been on this forum to only post when i try a game out.
While nothing can be as unfriendly as EQ1 pre pop in soloing vanguard even at earlier levels is already showing poor soloing abilities.
The game has potential and i be back but it needs many issues addressed.
Hey, Tacola, English is either not your native language or you have a reading impairment or (more likely) you're a knee-jerk Vanboi. The Red Text Guy's comments HAD NOTHING TO DO WITH PLAYING VANGUARD for the most part. The Red Text Guy's comments had EVERYTHING TO DO WITH HOW WOW PLAYS.
In other words, unless you're saying his points ABOUT WOW are not true, you probably didn't even read his comments and just instinctively went to the standard Vanboi talking point of accusing someone of lying about the game.
Jeezus, I personally have no problem with Vanguard as a game (aside from the performance issues), but the irrational Vanboism is giving me a very negative impression about the community.