2. Official forums allow the Community Managers to only have to visit one site. They want to post a message? One stop posting. They want to gauge the general ideas of the community? They're all in one spot. And Community Managers know the difference between random whining and serious concerns. The downside? Community Managers with official forums often get the soul-crushing job of being a forum Moderator. Much of their time is wasted on locking threads, editing objectionable material, and otherwise dealing with the assholes. That means that they're less inclined to share their knowledge with the community. People also start to EXPECT a dev reply. So many meaningless threads that start with the title, "Devs, plz respond!" Then again, many Vanguard players today, after the official forum was closed, feel adrift. There is no centralized voice, and they are scattered to the winds.
But some of us, myself included like visiting all the different fansites. I like how the communites on each are so different and varied. They all offer a different atmosphere. They allow the different players to find a community that is most comfortable to them, rather than forcing them to all congregate in one.
And I'll never be accused of modding someone's post simply because I didn't like what they said. I have, and never will have, no mod powers on any fan site. If a post gets deleted here, it's cause you broke MMORPG.com's rules, not because you posted something Mythic didn't want to hear.
3. Forums do not create the community. The community creates the atmosphere of the forum. For this, let's look at two games that were recently in development, and had official forums. Lord of the Rings Online, and Vanguard. LotRO had a very calm, friendly forum environment during development. Interesting discussions were common, and trolls and flames were kept to a minimum. On the other hand, Vanguard's community started out with an ego problem, and it showed in their forums. Anything negative about the game was shot down. Flamers and asshats prowled through every post. Essentially, it's the people that define how an official forum will develop. Not the pressence of an official forum, itself. Really, I think the pros outweigh the cons. But I admit that there is no perfect solution. Official forums have both advantages and disadvantages. I just hope the WAR community won't be fractured by the absence of a central community.
Personally I'm the opposite, I believe the cons outweigh the pros, as long as there are avenues of communication for the CM to get info out to the players (the Herald) and the players to get information to the CM/Devs (the Feedback System).
Richard J. Cox "There were much of the beautiful, much of the wanton, much of the bizarre, something of the terrible, and not a little of that which might have excited disgust."
I don't really care. On one hand you've got official forums which do turn into the whine/complaint fests ala WoW. On the other hand if they have no forum it could be a slight problem. I believe they are doing the same thing they did with DAoC, the Camelot herald was a fantastic source of real, solid, information without all the extra fluff. I spent each day there while playing DAoC, and I'll probably go to the War Herald each day as well.
Indeed, the WAR Herald will operate much like the Camelot Herald, only better.
Richard J. Cox "There were much of the beautiful, much of the wanton, much of the bizarre, something of the terrible, and not a little of that which might have excited disgust."
All you see is X and X is overpowered, this sucks, blah blah blah. Generally for every good thread there is about 50 that are whining or unintelligent posts(WAR is a WoW ripoff! OMG!!!).
Instead what this forces is something that many other games lack, Community. You will find a place you like and you will post there and get to know people there. This community also allows for BETTER management of posts. Instead of having to go through 50 whine posts the admin will just delete the stupidity and poof it is gone. Where as on official forums there are so many posts made that you can never make any headway.
Non-Official forums also allow for different cultures to form. Yes i said cultures. Your influenced by what you read and experience. If you create a community of 0 tolerance for stupidity eventually you will have a nice intelligent community that goes by facts and backs up concerns with data. This then allows for a better view of the state of the game. So these multiple community cultures will pop up and people like Richard will go around to each of them and see whats going on. They then get back better information on balance issues, wants, needs, etc. If someone ALWAYS posts X class is Overpowered people start to believe it and then people only see that class as overpowered no matter what the facts actually are. Seperate forums prevent the spread of stupidity. I'd rather keep that to a minimum.
So official whiney forums? Or a better balanced game with multiple communities. If you have technical problems call the tech support line or I am absolutely sure that these communities will have people more than willing to help you out.
My vote is for that its a good thing they arent having any Official boards. All they should have is a Tech support chat. Where you can connect with a tech support employee and get one on one help...Kinda like Myth Wars has. (see more details on Myth Wars site)
There can be many different manners to contact tech support without needing Forums to do it.
Agreed. But one can't deny how invaluable official forums are, in terms of gathering the community together in an organized fashion. Plus it facilitates easier (and more efficient) information sharing, and one cannot minimize the perceived "direct line of communication" effect that they have on the customer base.
I've been working in the software industry for a decade now (yeah I'm getting old), primarily supporting the US govt. One thing that has never been lost on me, is how important it is to give the customer the ability to address concerns, suggestions, or information sharing amongst the community in an organized manner. For games, it allows the users some catharsis just to vent at the CMs; for others, it allows them to discuss class tips, techniques, or game quests amongst each other in one centralized location.
And even with all the bashing we do of WoW, one has to objectively admit that their forums work -- very well. Sure, there's a whole lot of complaining that goes on. But many of us used the forums on a daily basis to get insight into crafting, class skills, and upcoming game changes. In today's online gaming communities, and with how pervasive the Web is, IME it doesn't make business sense to *not* have official forums.
And the whining is the reason why I don't like official forums. It's the only thing that isn't offered by unofficial forums.
One of the beauties of official forums is that, like any other forum, you don't HAVE to read them...so I don't see why the whining would bother you. On the other hand, forums do offer a direct line of communication to the devs (via the CMs), as well as valuable resources on class-based, game-based, quest-based, etc. issues. To me it signifies a level of professionalism if you will.
But why does it need to be official forums to provide that "direct line of communication to the devs (via the CMs)"... These aren't official forums, yet here I (the CM in question) am responding to your post...
Because, as has been witnessed in every other online game without official forums, it becomes a pain for the customer to follow several different fansites. Really what it comes down to, is that the customer is inconvenienced...and that is becoming too common of a trend these days in the software industry.
I'll even expand it beyond gaming. Too often I have been called in to solve some bad IT situations, and you would be surprised how all of it could have been solved in a much more expeditious and pleasing manner if there was good COMMUNICATION -- in most of my cases, it was vis-a-vis meetings, but in others it was building a solid website with discussion groups and forums.
I simply cannot stress enough how important it is for the customer to feel like 1. He/she is being heard, and 2. He/she isn't inconvenienced by running around looking for answers.
Its funny, a majority of the replies here support the decision to not have official forums...
But looking at the poll numbers.... over 50% of the respondents think its a bad choice.... while 32% don't really care...(mostly because they aren't into forums)......
but sure...lets not have official forums....
and please, stop pointing at DAOC's successes w/o forums.... they released a game killing expansion because they were totally out of touch with their core gamers, it was a niche game compared to EQ and others (and I still play DAOC btw) and the lack of a good forum was a negative..not a positive.... no matter how many arguments Richard tosses up to support the decision.
You could argue that my "opinion" is no more valid than Richards... except that I'm the one paying his salary... so it carries a bit more weight....
Just trying to live long enough to play a new, released MMORPG, playing New Worlds atm
Fools find no pleasure in understanding but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV
Don't just play games, inhabit virtual worlds™
"This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon
But some of us, myself included like visiting all the different fansites. I like how the communites on each are so different and varied. They all offer a different atmosphere. They allow the different players to find a community that is most comfortable to them, rather than forcing them to all congregate in one.And I'll never be accused of modding someone's post simply because I didn't like what they said. I have, and never will have, no mod powers on any fan site. If a post gets deleted here, it's cause you broke MMORPG.com's rules, not because you posted something Mythic didn't want to hear.
Sure, there are a lot of people that enjoy going to different forums. But put yourself in the shoes of your typical gamer nowadays. Most of us, believe it or not, are 25+ years old. Most of us have jobs, lives, and all the other great stuff that life throws at us -- i.e., we are casual/core gamers. I for one don't want to be spending my time away from the game by scanning several different forums; and if one is truly objective about it, one will find I am the typical gamer in 2007.
Now one could make the argument that this game *may* not be meant for the casual gamer. But I highly doubt that's the case, since when you get down to the meat of it, it is being made for money. The more the better...which means catering to the casual gamer.
Really, there are only two arguments against official forums that hold any water. 1. The immediate cost of implementing them, in terms of 1-2 web developers, a sys admin, servers, and other overhead costs; and 2. The ability for the dev team to keep the customer at bay. IMHO, the immediate costs are greatly outweighed by the benefit of the official forums and what they provide to the community.
Its funny, a majority of the replies here support the decision to not have official forums... But looking at the poll numbers.... over 50% of the respondents think its a bad choice.... while 32% don't really care...(mostly because they aren't into forums)...... but sure...lets not have official forums....
That's again part of the problem -- lack of communication between the community and the devs. When a company decides to distance itself from the less critical (and more silent) majority, nothing good can come of it. Mark my words on this, I have seen it one too many times.
All you see is X and X is overpowered, this sucks, blah blah blah. Generally for every good thread there is about 50 that are whining or unintelligent posts(WAR is a WoW ripoff! OMG!!!).
These types of posts exist anywhere you go...not having official forums isn't going to change it, all it succeeds in doing is making it harder for valid concerns to be addressed. And if you don't want to read the whining posts, don't read them. It really is as simple as not mousing over and clicking that post.
With all of WoW's flaws, I have to give them a LOT of credit with their forums. It is truly a knowledge base for the game.
I don't care if there isnt an official forum, but I'd like a nudge in the fan forum direction (ie, unofficially support one of them). I love browsing forums. I just keep thinking of the presentation about IMAGINATION. Give me a venue, doesn't have to be official, but I lose my want to go onto forums if I have to visit 5 different ones to keep up with everything.
I don't care if there isnt an official forum, but I'd like a nudge in the fan forum direction (ie, unofficially support one of them). I love browsing forums. I just keep thinking of the presentation about IMAGINATION. Give me a venue, doesn't have to be official, but I lose my want to go onto forums if I have to visit 5 different ones to keep up with everything.
And I think you'll find you're in the majority. I for one wasn't a big fan of WoW, but their business model took into account the little things that mattered -- seriously, can anyone argue that that site isn't a great resource for those that play WoW? Everyone I knew made extensive use of it when we played.
Here is the problem with your #1 argument Traelin. You say the cost is outweighed by the benefit. Do you have any figures on how much money it will cost? It's easy to say it's worth it when it isn't your money being spent. Even with EA picking up Mythic and contributing money towards WAR, they have access to data and financials we aren't privy to. If EA-Mythic decides to not implement official forums, they have their reasons for it. Nothing we do can get them to implement them.
Whenever I think about official forums, I always go back to the early days of Everquest. EQ used to have official forums. They were brought down when it became too much of a hassle to keep them worthwhile. Moderating an official forum is a 24 hour a day job. Even during non-peak hours, people are posting. A lot of those are trolls. So you have to pay someone to moderate the forums in the middle of the night and the very early morning as well. I think DAoC did perfectly fine without any official forums. I don't see how an official forum would have prevented ToA from releasing. It wasn't until it had been out for a while and people started collecting the artifacts and master levels that the problems really began to show up. Can you just imagine what the official forums would have consisted of if they existed? VN Boards were bad enough. The feedback form and polls used by Mythic when logging into the game are fine as I see it.
I played WoW on release. I recently stopped playing it. I used the official forums for information maybe twice in that entire time. I visited them semi-frequently early on, but as soon as it turned into the cesspool you see now I stopped using them. It took me much longer to find anything of value on the official forums than it did by visiting 2-3 community sites such as Warcry or Allakhazam. I used those 2 sites in particular exponentially more than I used the official site. The only reason I went to the main site was to get the official patch notes. I used the Herald constantly when I was playing DAoC.
Here is the problem with your #1 argument Traelin. You say the cost is outweighed by the benefit. Do you have any figures on how much money it will cost? It's easy to say it's worth it when it isn't your money being spent. Even with EA picking up Mythic and contributing money towards WAR, they have access to data and financials we aren't privy to. If EA-Mythic decides to not implement official forums, they have their reasons for it. Nothing we do can get them to implement them.
Whenever I think about official forums, I always go back to the early days of Everquest. EQ used to have official forums. They were brought down when it became too much of a hassle to keep them worthwhile. Moderating an official forum is a 24 hour a day job. Even during non-peak hours, people are posting. A lot of those are trolls. So you have to pay someone to moderate the forums in the middle of the night and the very early morning as well. I think DAoC did perfectly fine without any official forums. I don't see how an official forum would have prevented ToA from releasing. It wasn't until it had been out for a while and people started collecting the artifacts and master levels that the problems really began to show up. Can you just imagine what the official forums would have consisted of if they existed? VN Boards were bad enough. The feedback form and polls used by Mythic when logging into the game are fine as I see it.
I played WoW on release. I recently stopped playing it. I used the official forums for information maybe twice in that entire time. I visited them semi-frequently early on, but as soon as it turned into the cesspool you see now I stopped using them. It took me much longer to find anything of value on the official forums than it did by visiting 2-3 community sites such as Warcry or Allakhazam. I used those 2 sites in particular exponentially more than I used the official site. The only reason I went to the main site was to get the official patch notes. I used the Herald constantly when I was playing DAoC.
Oh no, let me make it clear. I do not know exactly what it would cost to maintain official forums, but being in the IT industry and knowing a bit about web servers, websites, server loads, sys admin salaries, etc., I could probably come up with a reasonable guess if I spent the time crunching the numbers in Excel. Yes, it would cost some dinero. With that being said, in my 10 years of professional experience, I have never seen a scenario where the community (ergo, the customer) didn't benefit with proper handling of communication channels. In online gaming, this would partially equate to the existence of official forums.
As to your experiences of EQ, I can't comment because I honestly never played it. I *suspect* that a lot of the problems related to that game had to do with Sony, because (this is MHO, don't attack me here ) everything they touch turns to lead. Again, you are more knowledgable than me WRT EQ though.
As for the WoW forums, I used them incessantly. All the time. I went there for blacksmithing tips, warrior and pally skill tweaks/updates, recommended class changes, upcoming patch notes...basically, everything except for quests which I used Thottbot for. As purely anecdotal evidence, everyone (literally) that I know IRL used those forums that played the game. And I'm talking an entire office I used to work at, family members, and friends. Their forums became "mission critical" to us, and outside fansites became supplementary material.
---------- "Anyone posting on this forum is not an average user, and there for any opinions about the game are going to be overly critical compared to an average users opinions." - Me
"Hello person posting on a site specifically for MMO's in a thread on a sub forum specifically for a particular game talking about meta features and making comparisons to other titles in the genre, and their meta features.
The only reason I like official forums is in specific cases, like old SWG. Where there were community members that had a semi direct line of communication to the development team. They could report our specific class issues and report to us how the devs responded. Now, during my time with DAOC I had little to no use for the forums because I was busy having fun in the game. However when I did look for class specific information it was more than a headache to try and find what I needed, just because fan sites are... well fan sites or specific guild run sites.
I remember after joining one DAOC community site I had to change internet providers because my email became inundated by spam. Never had that probelm from connecting to an official forum. Also, I do not want the devs to have to run around to half a dozen or more sites to sift through all the crap in an effort to see what the community feels/says about thier game... thats far too much time spent away from playing/developing the game that I am paying to play. Hell, even single player games have official forums more often than not anymore and community feedback is, I would imagine, far less important there than in a living breathing entity like an mmo.
Personally I prefer to read the good along with the bad concerning a game. It doesn't take that much extra time to read the flames/trolls and read the fanboi posts and find a smattering of truth between the two. But having to go to a dozen different places, many of which are just obscene in the content that is allowed to be posted, is a bigger turn-off to a game than all the whines and complaints that can be found through an official forum.
Finally, as with UO, SWG, lineage2 etc, the majority of my time spent in the forums were for server specific forums. Rarely do community sites host forums as well laid out as an official forum can be. Rarely were those server forums moderated but community event managers etc would show up there to find events to participate in, or to share information to the server community about events etc. Also it is the best place to find out who to or, more importantly, not to associate with, or to associate with in a guarded manner. Places like the old Sunrunner forums became the single best place to meet people on the same server that I played especially when the game world was so large it was rare to run across those people.
It is not needed because of the originator of the game. Mythic has had a very successful policy of no official forums for years. They supply a direct feedback and Q&A mechanism through the Camelot Herald site. In addition, they do very actively monitor indy forums. But, the main communications link is via the various Camelot Herald mails. What this allows Mythic to do is eliminate all the BS that 99% of forum traffic is made up of (WoW forums, for instance).
So, don't despair. There will be the equivilant of Camelot Herald for WaR. And ways to get legitimate feedback and questions regarding WaR back to Mythic.
If you want Info about the game, you have the WAR Herald and the Main site along with all of the various fansites.
Now if Mythic didn't offer a link to the various fansites, and if they were sparse on info about their game on the main site I could see that being a problem, but it seems to me that they're offering just as much info if not more, by showing people where to find unofficial sites as opposed to forcing people into one singular forum.
--------------------------------------------- I live to fight, and fight to live.
It is not needed because of the originator of the game. Mythic has had a very successful policy of no official forums for years. They supply a direct feedback and Q&A mechanism through the Camelot Herald site. In addition, they do very actively monitor indy forums. But, the main communications link is via the various Camelot Herald mails. What this allows Mythic to do is eliminate all the BS that 99% of forum traffic is made up of (WoW forums, for instance). So, don't despair. There will be the equivilant of Camelot Herald for WaR. And ways to get legitimate feedback and questions regarding WaR back to Mythic.
WoW forums aren't 99% BS, there was an awful lot of good game content there. And as for the so-called BS (I assume you mean the ranting posts?), you can either avoid clicking the threads, or use the search engine to find what you need. In fact, I may go so far as to say NONE of the content is BS...why would I say this? Because they are all paying customers, and as long as they aren't verbally abusing anyone on the site or breaking the ToS, it is valid posting.
If the customer wants something, you make it happen. Now it is debatable whether or not the customer wants official forums, I will grant you that. But that's where these sites can come in handy before the game goes live...you all can give your feedback via polls and comments, to hopefully raise the awareness of the devs.
NONE of the content is BS...why would I say this? Because they are all paying customers, and as long as they aren't verbally abusing anyone on the site or breaking the ToS, it is valid posting. If the customer wants something, you make it happen.
Paying cash doesn't make what you have to say valid - the whining, name calling, buff me and harm everyone else posts of those forums don't suddenly become any less BS just because cash changes hands. Customers, like uneducated voters, are rarely right. Official forums inevitably become cesspools for bad attitude and a total waste of valuable resources.
Most of the time, if a customer wants something in an MMO, it means hurting 90% of your customer base (everyone who's not playing whatever he's playing), so you most definitely do not make it happen. Something from Paul Barnett's Blog fits here: Players will state in public that they want the game tougher, harder, and more 'fair' when in fact they just want it tougher, harder and more fair for the people they think have it easy, this is almost never themselves.You stick true to the design and you make changes from an educated position with the entire product in mind, not on demand, and never to satisfy the rabble or the rabble rousers.
NONE of the content is BS...why would I say this? Because they are all paying customers, and as long as they aren't verbally abusing anyone on the site or breaking the ToS, it is valid posting. If the customer wants something, you make it happen.
Paying cash doesn't make what you have to say valid - the whining, name calling, buff me and harm everyone else posts of those forums don't suddenly become any less BS just because cash changes hands. Customers, like uneducated voters, are rarely right. Official forums inevitably become cesspools for bad attitude and a total waste of valuable resources.
Most of the time, if a customer wants something in an MMO, it means hurting 90% of your customer base (everyone who's not playing whatever he's playing), so you most definitely do not make it happen. Something from Paul Barnett's Blog fits here: Players will state in public that they want the game tougher, harder, and more 'fair' when in fact they just want it tougher, harder and more fair for the people they think have it easy, this is almost never themselves.You stick true to the design and you make changes from an educated position with the entire product in mind, not on demand, and never to satisfy the rabble or the rabble rousers.
Ahh but see you're not looking at it from a businessman's perspective. For instance, I say the customer is always right...but does that mean their request for "buff this, buff that" is 100%, completely accurate? No -- however, when you see a lot of those posts occurring, you have to wonder if there's some truth to the requests. For instance, in WoW the warriors are completely impotent right now, and believe me, people are complaining in droves -- even the other classes. So does it mean all the warriors are right in every little demand they're making? Probably not...but you have to dig through the posts and do some testing before you determine what the real issue is. Again, it all comes back to communication.
And yes, paying cash for something does indeed allow me to share my opinion, provided it isn't against the ToS, and it's not "over the top" offensive to other players. But your comment about voters really gave me a glimpse into where you are coming from -- the elitist point of view of the "powers that be"...I hate to break it to you, but politicians are NOTHING without the voters. And game devs are NOTHING without their customers. N O T H I N G, no paycheck, nada.
Customers, like voters, make or break those whom they are supporting. And if the majority of people ask for something like official forums (I think they are, but it would take more than one poll to ascertain that), you give it to them. They certainly aren't game or budget breaking.
NONE of the content is BS...why would I say this? Because they are all paying customers, and as long as they aren't verbally abusing anyone on the site or breaking the ToS, it is valid posting. If the customer wants something, you make it happen.
Paying cash doesn't make what you have to say valid - the whining, name calling, buff me and harm everyone else posts of those forums don't suddenly become any less BS just because cash changes hands. Customers, like uneducated voters, are rarely right. Official forums inevitably become cesspools for bad attitude and a total waste of valuable resources.
Most of the time, if a customer wants something in an MMO, it means hurting 90% of your customer base (everyone who's not playing whatever he's playing), so you most definitely do not make it happen. Something from Paul Barnett's Blog fits here: Players will state in public that they want the game tougher, harder, and more 'fair' when in fact they just want it tougher, harder and more fair for the people they think have it easy, this is almost never themselves.You stick true to the design and you make changes from an educated position with the entire product in mind, not on demand, and never to satisfy the rabble or the rabble rousers.
Ahh but see you're not looking at it from a businessman's perspective. For instance, I say the customer is always right...but does that mean their request for "buff this, buff that" is 100%, completely accurate? No -- however, when you see a lot of those posts occurring, you have to wonder if there's some truth to the requests. For instance, in WoW the warriors are completely impotent right now, and believe me, people are complaining in droves -- even the other classes. So does it mean all the warriors are right in every little demand they're making? Probably not...but you have to dig through the posts and do some testing before you determine what the real issue is. Again, it all comes back to communication.
And yes, paying cash for something does indeed allow me to share my opinion, provided it isn't against the ToS, and it's not "over the top" offensive to other players. But your comment about voters really gave me a glimpse into where you are coming from -- the elitist point of view of the "powers that be"...I hate to break it to you, but politicians are NOTHING without the voters. And game devs are NOTHING without their customers. N O T H I N G, no paycheck, nada.
Customers, like voters, make or break those whom they are supporting. And if the majority of people ask for something like official forums (I think they are, but it would take more than one poll to ascertain that), you give it to them. They certainly aren't game or budget breaking.
Seriously, now you're acting like they said they wouldn't have feedback at all.
Of course you are entitled to your opinion, but you're making a case for forums beeing the only or superior way to deliver feedback. Guess what I disagree. Why do you want other customers reading your feedback and responding to it, in any way they see fit? You want to rally other people to support your case, so that it looks more viable? The guys shouting louder must be right? How does that make for good feedback? People will be alot more truthful in a feedback form, with noone around to bitch about their opinion. In a forum thread you'll have people moaning like it was the end of the world, about something they never encountered themselves. So you never really know how big a problem it is.
The other stuff the information gathering and so on - now THAT's a valid complaint - if thats how you want to gather your information about the game, then yes tell them. Just don't expect others to prefer the same way. I almost never visit forums for a game that I play, actually I avoid it on purpose because they're mostly complaints. I don't need other peoples complaints. I like something or I don't like it or I never encountered it so I don't care. And for information I think databases and google served me alot better in the past than any one forum ever could.
IMHO the majority of any games community doesn't visit forums at all or very rarely, because there'd be alot more views on the threads if they did. So there's no "opinion of majority of the community" to be found on an official forum either.
"It is no measure of health to be well adjusted to a profoundly sick society." ~J. Krishnamurti
Seriously, now you're acting like they said they wouldn't have feedback at all.
Of course you are entitled to your opinion, but you're making a case for forums beeing the only or superior way to deliver feedback. Guess what I disagree. Why do you want other customers reading your feedback and responding to it, in any way they see fit? You want to rally other people to support your case, so that it looks more viable? The guys shouting louder must be right? How does that make for good feedback? People will be alot more truthful in a feedback form, with noone around to bitch about their opinion. In a forum thread you'll have people moaning like it was the end of the world, about something they never encountered themselves. So you never really know how big a problem it is.
The other stuff the information gathering and so on - now THAT's a valid complaint - if thats how you want to gather your information about the game, then yes tell them. Just don't expect others to prefer the same way. I almost never visit forums for a game that I play, actually I avoid it on purpose because they're mostly complaints. I don't need other peoples complaints. I like something or I don't like it or I never encountered it so I don't care. And for information I think databases and google served me alot better in the past than any one forum ever could.
IMHO the majority of any games community doesn't visit forums at all or very rarely, because there'd be alot more views on the threads if they did. So there's no "opinion of majority of the community" to be found on an official forum either.
Like you suggested, I do believe official forums for an online game to be the superior form of feedback. But I don't want to rehash all of this, because I've gone over it in my posts above.
As for information gathering, this is the main thing I use the forums for -- again, per my posts above. But as you said, you don't really care either way whether they have the forums, which is understandable. As for other folks being so vehemently opposed to them, it makes no sense to me. If they aren't going to use them anyways, why spoil the soup for everyone that does want them? Hrm, maybe because they know they WILL use them? As for the complaints, they will exist on every forum. If human beings exist, they will bitch. If they have any form of outlet, they will use it to bitch. And that is not necessarily a bad thing mind you.
But go to the WoW forums and tell me people don't use them by far more often than fansite forums. Also, don't discount the fact that for every post you see, there are probably 20 non-posters (arbitrary number, but you get my point) out there that read it for content.
Oh well, we agree to disagree...in any event, I'll probably avoid any title where it's not convenient for me to share in the community, discover new info, etc. But hey, that's just me...I'm picky like that, and just don't feel like giving my money to what I consider a half-arsed cause. And IMHO this game at launch will probably be pretty cool, so it's too bad for me.
It worked great with DaoC, it will be work just as well this time. An official forum is very resource heavy (resouce being time) with a minimal reward (being useful feedback), it it more often than not give a game bad publicity, since its mostly used by the people NOT playing the game on thier free time, explaining in as many posts as possible for as long as possible exactly why they are not playing it right now, or wont play it in the near future, and what arses anyone working on the game is since "pet problem no1" was not fixed in the latest patch. The people giving the game good publicity and a good reputation are very seldom in an official forum.. they are A: Playing the game or B: Making money so they can play the game. IF they... seldom but it happens... have a few minutes extra and not playing the game those minutes... an inofficial forum where people gather will work just as well.
Only those that feel they have a LOT of little opinions they just HAVE to share with the devs very often (or spoiled abusive brats that want everything instantly on a silver platter) think an official forum is critical to a game... and really... most games are better off without them.
"This is not a game to be tossed aside lightly. It should be thrown with great force"
Very interesting debate I think. I have to agree with Traelin and ever since World of Warcraft I have enjoyed Official Forums for games. The main idea is to have a centralized community! Yet somehow everybody is opposed to this and I dont believe the arguments against are good enough to make no forums a valid strategy. When I played Final Fantasy XI they had no official forums, but an excellent official website and excellent customer service (in my opinion). I then spent most of my forum time on Allakhazam where most players had set up the unofficial forums (since the database for quests, etc was right at hand). It worked? Yes. Very well might I add and I never missed having official forums.
However then having played World of Warcraft (and also looking forward to The Chronicles of Spellborn being registered on their official forums) I have to say that I think having (official forums) is better for all parties involved. Those who want a place to go have it. Those who dont want to go, dont have to and everybody has a centralized database of information coming from both the developers and customers. I think the problem at this point is that people are supporting the game and as is usual with the early fans they want to support everything including EA Mythics decision to not have official forums.
It is a player preference and as such we can go back and forth forever arguing about the pross and cons. However there will always be those who want the official forums and those who do not. I think you can please more people (customers) by offering the forums than by not doing so and while the herald is an excellent source of information it will be ashame to not have official forums. If any one fansite did become the official forum I would think Warhammer Alliance would be it.
Comments
But some of us, myself included like visiting all the different fansites. I like how the communites on each are so different and varied. They all offer a different atmosphere. They allow the different players to find a community that is most comfortable to them, rather than forcing them to all congregate in one.
And I'll never be accused of modding someone's post simply because I didn't like what they said. I have, and never will have, no mod powers on any fan site. If a post gets deleted here, it's cause you broke MMORPG.com's rules, not because you posted something Mythic didn't want to hear.Personally I'm the opposite, I believe the cons outweigh the pros, as long as there are avenues of communication for the CM to get info out to the players (the Herald) and the players to get information to the CM/Devs (the Feedback System).
Richard J. Cox
"There were much of the beautiful, much of the wanton, much of the bizarre, something of the terrible, and not a little of that which might have excited disgust."
Richard J. Cox
"There were much of the beautiful, much of the wanton, much of the bizarre, something of the terrible, and not a little of that which might have excited disgust."
All you see is X and X is overpowered, this sucks, blah blah blah. Generally for every good thread there is about 50 that are whining or unintelligent posts(WAR is a WoW ripoff! OMG!!!).
Instead what this forces is something that many other games lack, Community. You will find a place you like and you will post there and get to know people there. This community also allows for BETTER management of posts. Instead of having to go through 50 whine posts the admin will just delete the stupidity and poof it is gone. Where as on official forums there are so many posts made that you can never make any headway.
Non-Official forums also allow for different cultures to form. Yes i said cultures. Your influenced by what you read and experience. If you create a community of 0 tolerance for stupidity eventually you will have a nice intelligent community that goes by facts and backs up concerns with data. This then allows for a better view of the state of the game. So these multiple community cultures will pop up and people like Richard will go around to each of them and see whats going on. They then get back better information on balance issues, wants, needs, etc. If someone ALWAYS posts X class is Overpowered people start to believe it and then people only see that class as overpowered no matter what the facts actually are. Seperate forums prevent the spread of stupidity. I'd rather keep that to a minimum.
So official whiney forums? Or a better balanced game with multiple communities. If you have technical problems call the tech support line or I am absolutely sure that these communities will have people more than willing to help you out.
Agreed. But one can't deny how invaluable official forums are, in terms of gathering the community together in an organized fashion. Plus it facilitates easier (and more efficient) information sharing, and one cannot minimize the perceived "direct line of communication" effect that they have on the customer base.
I've been working in the software industry for a decade now (yeah I'm getting old), primarily supporting the US govt. One thing that has never been lost on me, is how important it is to give the customer the ability to address concerns, suggestions, or information sharing amongst the community in an organized manner. For games, it allows the users some catharsis just to vent at the CMs; for others, it allows them to discuss class tips, techniques, or game quests amongst each other in one centralized location.
And even with all the bashing we do of WoW, one has to objectively admit that their forums work -- very well. Sure, there's a whole lot of complaining that goes on. But many of us used the forums on a daily basis to get insight into crafting, class skills, and upcoming game changes. In today's online gaming communities, and with how pervasive the Web is, IME it doesn't make business sense to *not* have official forums.
One of the beauties of official forums is that, like any other forum, you don't HAVE to read them...so I don't see why the whining would bother you. On the other hand, forums do offer a direct line of communication to the devs (via the CMs), as well as valuable resources on class-based, game-based, quest-based, etc. issues. To me it signifies a level of professionalism if you will.
But why does it need to be official forums to provide that "direct line of communication to the devs (via the CMs)"... These aren't official forums, yet here I (the CM in question) am responding to your post...
Because, as has been witnessed in every other online game without official forums, it becomes a pain for the customer to follow several different fansites. Really what it comes down to, is that the customer is inconvenienced...and that is becoming too common of a trend these days in the software industry.
I'll even expand it beyond gaming. Too often I have been called in to solve some bad IT situations, and you would be surprised how all of it could have been solved in a much more expeditious and pleasing manner if there was good COMMUNICATION -- in most of my cases, it was vis-a-vis meetings, but in others it was building a solid website with discussion groups and forums.
I simply cannot stress enough how important it is for the customer to feel like 1. He/she is being heard, and 2. He/she isn't inconvenienced by running around looking for answers.
Its funny, a majority of the replies here support the decision to not have official forums...
But looking at the poll numbers.... over 50% of the respondents think its a bad choice.... while 32% don't really care...(mostly because they aren't into forums)......
but sure...lets not have official forums....
and please, stop pointing at DAOC's successes w/o forums.... they released a game killing expansion because they were totally out of touch with their core gamers, it was a niche game compared to EQ and others (and I still play DAOC btw) and the lack of a good forum was a negative..not a positive.... no matter how many arguments Richard tosses up to support the decision.
You could argue that my "opinion" is no more valid than Richards... except that I'm the one paying his salary... so it carries a bit more weight....
"True friends stab you in the front." | Oscar Wilde
"I need to finish" - Christian Wolff: The Accountant
Just trying to live long enough to play a new, released MMORPG, playing New Worlds atm
Fools find no pleasure in understanding but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV
Don't just play games, inhabit virtual worlds™
"This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon
Sure, there are a lot of people that enjoy going to different forums. But put yourself in the shoes of your typical gamer nowadays. Most of us, believe it or not, are 25+ years old. Most of us have jobs, lives, and all the other great stuff that life throws at us -- i.e., we are casual/core gamers. I for one don't want to be spending my time away from the game by scanning several different forums; and if one is truly objective about it, one will find I am the typical gamer in 2007.
Now one could make the argument that this game *may* not be meant for the casual gamer. But I highly doubt that's the case, since when you get down to the meat of it, it is being made for money. The more the better...which means catering to the casual gamer.
Really, there are only two arguments against official forums that hold any water. 1. The immediate cost of implementing them, in terms of 1-2 web developers, a sys admin, servers, and other overhead costs; and 2. The ability for the dev team to keep the customer at bay. IMHO, the immediate costs are greatly outweighed by the benefit of the official forums and what they provide to the community.
Just my $.02.
These types of posts exist anywhere you go...not having official forums isn't going to change it, all it succeeds in doing is making it harder for valid concerns to be addressed. And if you don't want to read the whining posts, don't read them. It really is as simple as not mousing over and clicking that post.
With all of WoW's flaws, I have to give them a LOT of credit with their forums. It is truly a knowledge base for the game.
Whenever I think about official forums, I always go back to the early days of Everquest. EQ used to have official forums. They were brought down when it became too much of a hassle to keep them worthwhile. Moderating an official forum is a 24 hour a day job. Even during non-peak hours, people are posting. A lot of those are trolls. So you have to pay someone to moderate the forums in the middle of the night and the very early morning as well. I think DAoC did perfectly fine without any official forums. I don't see how an official forum would have prevented ToA from releasing. It wasn't until it had been out for a while and people started collecting the artifacts and master levels that the problems really began to show up. Can you just imagine what the official forums would have consisted of if they existed? VN Boards were bad enough. The feedback form and polls used by Mythic when logging into the game are fine as I see it.
I played WoW on release. I recently stopped playing it. I used the official forums for information maybe twice in that entire time. I visited them semi-frequently early on, but as soon as it turned into the cesspool you see now I stopped using them. It took me much longer to find anything of value on the official forums than it did by visiting 2-3 community sites such as Warcry or Allakhazam. I used those 2 sites in particular exponentially more than I used the official site. The only reason I went to the main site was to get the official patch notes. I used the Herald constantly when I was playing DAoC.
Oh no, let me make it clear. I do not know exactly what it would cost to maintain official forums, but being in the IT industry and knowing a bit about web servers, websites, server loads, sys admin salaries, etc., I could probably come up with a reasonable guess if I spent the time crunching the numbers in Excel. Yes, it would cost some dinero. With that being said, in my 10 years of professional experience, I have never seen a scenario where the community (ergo, the customer) didn't benefit with proper handling of communication channels. In online gaming, this would partially equate to the existence of official forums.
As to your experiences of EQ, I can't comment because I honestly never played it. I *suspect* that a lot of the problems related to that game had to do with Sony, because (this is MHO, don't attack me here
) everything they touch turns to lead. Again, you are more knowledgable than me WRT EQ though.
As for the WoW forums, I used them incessantly. All the time. I went there for blacksmithing tips, warrior and pally skill tweaks/updates, recommended class changes, upcoming patch notes...basically, everything except for quests which I used Thottbot for. As purely anecdotal evidence, everyone (literally) that I know IRL used those forums that played the game. And I'm talking an entire office I used to work at, family members, and friends. Their forums became "mission critical" to us, and outside fansites became supplementary material.
http://www.mmorpg.com/discussion2.cfm/thread/118225/page/1
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"Anyone posting on this forum is not an average user, and there for any opinions about the game are going to be overly critical compared to an average users opinions." - Me
"No, your wrong.." - Random user #123
"Hello person posting on a site specifically for MMO's in a thread on a sub forum specifically for a particular game talking about meta features and making comparisons to other titles in the genre, and their meta features.
How are you?" -Me
I remember after joining one DAOC community site I had to change internet providers because my email became inundated by spam. Never had that probelm from connecting to an official forum. Also, I do not want the devs to have to run around to half a dozen or more sites to sift through all the crap in an effort to see what the community feels/says about thier game... thats far too much time spent away from playing/developing the game that I am paying to play. Hell, even single player games have official forums more often than not anymore and community feedback is, I would imagine, far less important there than in a living breathing entity like an mmo.
Personally I prefer to read the good along with the bad concerning a game. It doesn't take that much extra time to read the flames/trolls and read the fanboi posts and find a smattering of truth between the two. But having to go to a dozen different places, many of which are just obscene in the content that is allowed to be posted, is a bigger turn-off to a game than all the whines and complaints that can be found through an official forum.
Finally, as with UO, SWG, lineage2 etc, the majority of my time spent in the forums were for server specific forums. Rarely do community sites host forums as well laid out as an official forum can be. Rarely were those server forums moderated but community event managers etc would show up there to find events to participate in, or to share information to the server community about events etc. Also it is the best place to find out who to or, more importantly, not to associate with, or to associate with in a guarded manner. Places like the old Sunrunner forums became the single best place to meet people on the same server that I played especially when the game world was so large it was rare to run across those people.
http://www.speedtest.net/result/7300033012
It is not needed because of the originator of the game. Mythic has had a very successful policy of no official forums for years. They supply a direct feedback and Q&A mechanism through the Camelot Herald site. In addition, they do very actively monitor indy forums. But, the main communications link is via the various Camelot Herald mails. What this allows Mythic to do is eliminate all the BS that 99% of forum traffic is made up of (WoW forums, for instance).
So, don't despair. There will be the equivilant of Camelot Herald for WaR. And ways to get legitimate feedback and questions regarding WaR back to Mythic.
Everything offered by official forums can be offered by a developer with unofficial forums.
We'll take WAR for example. If you want to find a community on a forum that you like, they have a link to forums and fansites:
www.warhammeronline.com/english/community/forumsFansites/
If you want Info about the game, you have the WAR Herald and the Main site along with all of the various fansites.
Now if Mythic didn't offer a link to the various fansites, and if they were sparse on info about their game on the main site I could see that being a problem, but it seems to me that they're offering just as much info if not more, by showing people where to find unofficial sites as opposed to forcing people into one singular forum.
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I live to fight, and fight to live.
WoW forums aren't 99% BS, there was an awful lot of good game content there. And as for the so-called BS (I assume you mean the ranting posts?), you can either avoid clicking the threads, or use the search engine to find what you need. In fact, I may go so far as to say NONE of the content is BS...why would I say this? Because they are all paying customers, and as long as they aren't verbally abusing anyone on the site or breaking the ToS, it is valid posting.
If the customer wants something, you make it happen. Now it is debatable whether or not the customer wants official forums, I will grant you that. But that's where these sites can come in handy before the game goes live...you all can give your feedback via polls and comments, to hopefully raise the awareness of the devs.
Paying cash doesn't make what you have to say valid - the whining, name calling, buff me and harm everyone else posts of those forums don't suddenly become any less BS just because cash changes hands. Customers, like uneducated voters, are rarely right. Official forums inevitably become cesspools for bad attitude and a total waste of valuable resources.
Most of the time, if a customer wants something in an MMO, it means hurting 90% of your customer base (everyone who's not playing whatever he's playing), so you most definitely do not make it happen. Something from Paul Barnett's Blog fits here: Players will state in public that they want the game tougher, harder, and more 'fair' when in fact they just want it tougher, harder and more fair for the people they think have it easy, this is almost never themselves. You stick true to the design and you make changes from an educated position with the entire product in mind, not on demand, and never to satisfy the rabble or the rabble rousers.
Paying cash doesn't make what you have to say valid - the whining, name calling, buff me and harm everyone else posts of those forums don't suddenly become any less BS just because cash changes hands. Customers, like uneducated voters, are rarely right. Official forums inevitably become cesspools for bad attitude and a total waste of valuable resources.
Most of the time, if a customer wants something in an MMO, it means hurting 90% of your customer base (everyone who's not playing whatever he's playing), so you most definitely do not make it happen. Something from Paul Barnett's Blog fits here: Players will state in public that they want the game tougher, harder, and more 'fair' when in fact they just want it tougher, harder and more fair for the people they think have it easy, this is almost never themselves. You stick true to the design and you make changes from an educated position with the entire product in mind, not on demand, and never to satisfy the rabble or the rabble rousers.
Ahh but see you're not looking at it from a businessman's perspective. For instance, I say the customer is always right...but does that mean their request for "buff this, buff that" is 100%, completely accurate? No -- however, when you see a lot of those posts occurring, you have to wonder if there's some truth to the requests. For instance, in WoW the warriors are completely impotent right now, and believe me, people are complaining in droves -- even the other classes. So does it mean all the warriors are right in every little demand they're making? Probably not...but you have to dig through the posts and do some testing before you determine what the real issue is. Again, it all comes back to communication.
And yes, paying cash for something does indeed allow me to share my opinion, provided it isn't against the ToS, and it's not "over the top" offensive to other players. But your comment about voters really gave me a glimpse into where you are coming from -- the elitist point of view of the "powers that be"...I hate to break it to you, but politicians are NOTHING without the voters. And game devs are NOTHING without their customers. N O T H I N G, no paycheck, nada.
Customers, like voters, make or break those whom they are supporting. And if the majority of people ask for something like official forums (I think they are, but it would take more than one poll to ascertain that), you give it to them. They certainly aren't game or budget breaking.
Paying cash doesn't make what you have to say valid - the whining, name calling, buff me and harm everyone else posts of those forums don't suddenly become any less BS just because cash changes hands. Customers, like uneducated voters, are rarely right. Official forums inevitably become cesspools for bad attitude and a total waste of valuable resources.
Most of the time, if a customer wants something in an MMO, it means hurting 90% of your customer base (everyone who's not playing whatever he's playing), so you most definitely do not make it happen. Something from Paul Barnett's Blog fits here: Players will state in public that they want the game tougher, harder, and more 'fair' when in fact they just want it tougher, harder and more fair for the people they think have it easy, this is almost never themselves. You stick true to the design and you make changes from an educated position with the entire product in mind, not on demand, and never to satisfy the rabble or the rabble rousers.
Ahh but see you're not looking at it from a businessman's perspective. For instance, I say the customer is always right...but does that mean their request for "buff this, buff that" is 100%, completely accurate? No -- however, when you see a lot of those posts occurring, you have to wonder if there's some truth to the requests. For instance, in WoW the warriors are completely impotent right now, and believe me, people are complaining in droves -- even the other classes. So does it mean all the warriors are right in every little demand they're making? Probably not...but you have to dig through the posts and do some testing before you determine what the real issue is. Again, it all comes back to communication.
And yes, paying cash for something does indeed allow me to share my opinion, provided it isn't against the ToS, and it's not "over the top" offensive to other players. But your comment about voters really gave me a glimpse into where you are coming from -- the elitist point of view of the "powers that be"...I hate to break it to you, but politicians are NOTHING without the voters. And game devs are NOTHING without their customers. N O T H I N G, no paycheck, nada.
Customers, like voters, make or break those whom they are supporting. And if the majority of people ask for something like official forums (I think they are, but it would take more than one poll to ascertain that), you give it to them. They certainly aren't game or budget breaking.
Seriously, now you're acting like they said they wouldn't have feedback at all.Of course you are entitled to your opinion, but you're making a case for forums beeing the only or superior way to deliver feedback. Guess what I disagree. Why do you want other customers reading your feedback and responding to it, in any way they see fit? You want to rally other people to support your case, so that it looks more viable? The guys shouting louder must be right? How does that make for good feedback? People will be alot more truthful in a feedback form, with noone around to bitch about their opinion. In a forum thread you'll have people moaning like it was the end of the world, about something they never encountered themselves. So you never really know how big a problem it is.
The other stuff the information gathering and so on - now THAT's a valid complaint - if thats how you want to gather your information about the game, then yes tell them. Just don't expect others to prefer the same way. I almost never visit forums for a game that I play, actually I avoid it on purpose because they're mostly complaints. I don't need other peoples complaints. I like something or I don't like it or I never encountered it so I don't care. And for information I think databases and google served me alot better in the past than any one forum ever could.
IMHO the majority of any games community doesn't visit forums at all or very rarely, because there'd be alot more views on the threads if they did. So there's no "opinion of majority of the community" to be found on an official forum either.
"It is no measure of health to be well adjusted to a profoundly sick society."
~J. Krishnamurti
Like you suggested, I do believe official forums for an online game to be the superior form of feedback. But I don't want to rehash all of this, because I've gone over it in my posts above.
As for information gathering, this is the main thing I use the forums for -- again, per my posts above. But as you said, you don't really care either way whether they have the forums, which is understandable. As for other folks being so vehemently opposed to them, it makes no sense to me. If they aren't going to use them anyways, why spoil the soup for everyone that does want them? Hrm, maybe because they know they WILL use them? As for the complaints, they will exist on every forum. If human beings exist, they will bitch. If they have any form of outlet, they will use it to bitch. And that is not necessarily a bad thing mind you.
But go to the WoW forums and tell me people don't use them by far more often than fansite forums. Also, don't discount the fact that for every post you see, there are probably 20 non-posters (arbitrary number, but you get my point) out there that read it for content.
Oh well, we agree to disagree...in any event, I'll probably avoid any title where it's not convenient for me to share in the community, discover new info, etc. But hey, that's just me...I'm picky like that, and just don't feel like giving my money to what I consider a half-arsed cause. And IMHO this game at launch will probably be pretty cool, so it's too bad for me.
It worked great with DaoC, it will be work just as well this time. An official forum is very resource heavy (resouce being time) with a minimal reward (being useful feedback), it it more often than not give a game bad publicity, since its mostly used by the people NOT playing the game on thier free time, explaining in as many posts as possible for as long as possible exactly why they are not playing it right now, or wont play it in the near future, and what arses anyone working on the game is since "pet problem no1" was not fixed in the latest patch. The people giving the game good publicity and a good reputation are very seldom in an official forum.. they are A: Playing the game or B: Making money so they can play the game. IF they... seldom but it happens... have a few minutes extra and not playing the game those minutes... an inofficial forum where people gather will work just as well.
Only those that feel they have a LOT of little opinions they just HAVE to share with the devs very often (or spoiled abusive brats that want everything instantly on a silver platter) think an official forum is critical to a game... and really... most games are better off without them.
"This is not a game to be tossed aside lightly.
It should be thrown with great force"
Very interesting debate I think. I have to agree with Traelin and ever since World of Warcraft I have enjoyed Official Forums for games. The main idea is to have a centralized community! Yet somehow everybody is opposed to this and I dont believe the arguments against are good enough to make no forums a valid strategy. When I played Final Fantasy XI they had no official forums, but an excellent official website and excellent customer service (in my opinion). I then spent most of my forum time on Allakhazam where most players had set up the unofficial forums (since the database for quests, etc was right at hand). It worked? Yes. Very well might I add and I never missed having official forums.
However then having played World of Warcraft (and also looking forward to The Chronicles of Spellborn being registered on their official forums) I have to say that I think having (official forums) is better for all parties involved. Those who want a place to go have it. Those who dont want to go, dont have to and everybody has a centralized database of information coming from both the developers and customers. I think the problem at this point is that people are supporting the game and as is usual with the early fans they want to support everything including EA Mythics decision to not have official forums.
It is a player preference and as such we can go back and forth forever arguing about the pross and cons. However there will always be those who want the official forums and those who do not. I think you can please more people (customers) by offering the forums than by not doing so and while the herald is an excellent source of information it will be ashame to not have official forums. If any one fansite did become the official forum I would think Warhammer Alliance would be it.