My vote is for that its a good thing they arent having any Official boards. All they should have is a Tech support chat. Where you can connect with a tech support employee and get one on one help...Kinda like Myth Wars has. (see more details on Myth Wars site)
There can be many different manners to contact tech support without needing Forums to do it.
Agreed. But one can't deny how invaluable official forums are, in terms of gathering the community together in an organized fashion. Plus it facilitates easier (and more efficient) information sharing, and one cannot minimize the perceived "direct line of communication" effect that they have on the customer base.
I've been working in the software industry for a decade now (yeah I'm getting old), primarily supporting the US govt. One thing that has never been lost on me, is how important it is to give the customer the ability to address concerns, suggestions, or information sharing amongst the community in an organized manner. For games, it allows the users some catharsis just to vent at the CMs; for others, it allows them to discuss class tips, techniques, or game quests amongst each other in one centralized location.
And even with all the bashing we do of WoW, one has to objectively admit that their forums work -- very well. Sure, there's a whole lot of complaining that goes on. But many of us used the forums on a daily basis to get insight into crafting, class skills, and upcoming game changes. In today's online gaming communities, and with how pervasive the Web is, IME it doesn't make business sense to *not* have official forums.
You keep assuming that just because there are no forums that means there is no "direct line of communication" to the Dev team... You don't have to have forums give the customer said ability to address concerns, suggestions or anything else with the Dev team.
Official forums are no better for the type of information sharing (crafting, class skills, etc) than the fansite forums. Trust me, any fansite worth visiting out there will have all the info you need, you won't need to bounce around between 5 different ones.
Richard J. Cox "There were much of the beautiful, much of the wanton, much of the bizarre, something of the terrible, and not a little of that which might have excited disgust."
Its funny, a majority of the replies here support the decision to not have official forums... But looking at the poll numbers.... over 50% of the respondents think its a bad choice.... while 32% don't really care...(mostly because they aren't into forums)...... but sure...lets not have official forums.... and please, stop pointing at DAOC's successes w/o forums.... they released a game killing expansion because they were totally out of touch with their core gamers, it was a niche game compared to EQ and others (and I still play DAOC btw) and the lack of a good forum was a negative..not a positive.... no matter how many arguments Richard tosses up to support the decision. You could argue that my "opinion" is no more valid than Richards... except that I'm the one paying his salary... so it carries a bit more weight....
I had nothing to do with the decision for DAoC to not have forums, I wasn't even in the industry back then, much less working for Mythic. And honestly, opinions are equally valid regardless of which side of the fence you're on.
I can honestly say I have never frequented the official forums for ANY MMO I have ever played. And trust me, I'd bet a LOT of money that I've spent more time playing MMOs than just about everyone in this discussion. Even if you take away the 2 years I spent doing it as a job for this very site. The only thing I've ever found on official forums that I couldn't find on fansite forums was an excessive amount of whining, flaming, trolling and an overall cesspit.
Yeah, ToA sucked, I think that's been well established, not really a bright ray of enlightenment there. But quite honestly, a lot of that was due to listening to the extremely vocal minority, which for the record are generally the type of people on the forums screaming the loudest that their class is underpowered and need a boost even though they're constantly in the top of the RP gainers each week.
DAoC's feedback system, IMO, is a far better system than official forums. Feedback forms are a lot easier to track and tally over periods of time than posts on a forum are. I can pull up my feedback report and tell you exactly how many times last May that someone wrote in and said Scouts needed some love or that Vamps were overpowered. I can spit you out a graph showing how many more times each month for the entire year someone said Valks are overpowered vs Valks are underpowered. I can spit out a list of the top 20 issues reported each month for the last year complete with breakdowns of how many times each item has appeared in the top 20, the percentage of total times that issue has been reported vs the total number of issues, etc.
So yeah, after having worked on this side of the fence long enough to have an idea which manner is easier to collect ideas, issues, suggestions, etc from the players, either forums or the feedback system, I'm definitely in favor of the feedback system.
Originally posted by Traelin
Originally posted by Distaste
I am all for no official forums.
All you see is X and X is overpowered, this sucks, blah blah blah. Generally for every good thread there is about 50 that are whining or unintelligent posts(WAR is a WoW ripoff! OMG!!!).
These types of posts exist anywhere you go...not having official forums isn't going to change it, all it succeeds in doing is making it harder for valid concerns to be addressed. And if you don't want to read the whining posts, don't read them. It really is as simple as not mousing over and clicking that post.
With all of WoW's flaws, I have to give them a LOT of credit with their forums. It is truly a knowledge base for the game.
And on the same note, the informative posts, the class skill guides, the crafting guides, the overall knowledge base for the game as you call it, will exist anywhere as well. As I said above, any fansite worth it's and wants to be competitive will have all of that. Heck, there are already fansites out there for WAR that have Character Builders and interactive maps in place and the game is still almost a year from launch.
Richard J. Cox "There were much of the beautiful, much of the wanton, much of the bizarre, something of the terrible, and not a little of that which might have excited disgust."
I don't care if there isnt an official forum, but I'd like a nudge in the fan forum direction (ie, unofficially support one of them). I love browsing forums. I just keep thinking of the presentation about IMAGINATION. Give me a venue, doesn't have to be official, but I lose my want to go onto forums if I have to visit 5 different ones to keep up with everything.
I think you'll find once the game launches the cream of the crop of fansites will definitely rise to the top. There will be 2-3 really good fansites that all have all the same info and you'll do perfectly well on any of them solely, without having to jump around from one to the other.
Richard J. Cox "There were much of the beautiful, much of the wanton, much of the bizarre, something of the terrible, and not a little of that which might have excited disgust."
Here is the problem with your #1 argument Traelin. You say the cost is outweighed by the benefit. Do you have any figures on how much money it will cost? It's easy to say it's worth it when it isn't your money being spent. Even with EA picking up Mythic and contributing money towards WAR, they have access to data and financials we aren't privy to. If EA-Mythic decides to not implement official forums, they have their reasons for it. Nothing we do can get them to implement them.
Whenever I think about official forums, I always go back to the early days of Everquest. EQ used to have official forums. They were brought down when it became too much of a hassle to keep them worthwhile. Moderating an official forum is a 24 hour a day job. Even during non-peak hours, people are posting. A lot of those are trolls. So you have to pay someone to moderate the forums in the middle of the night and the very early morning as well. I think DAoC did perfectly fine without any official forums. I don't see how an official forum would have prevented ToA from releasing. It wasn't until it had been out for a while and people started collecting the artifacts and master levels that the problems really began to show up. Can you just imagine what the official forums would have consisted of if they existed? VN Boards were bad enough. The feedback form and polls used by Mythic when logging into the game are fine as I see it.
I played WoW on release. I recently stopped playing it. I used the official forums for information maybe twice in that entire time. I visited them semi-frequently early on, but as soon as it turned into the cesspool you see now I stopped using them. It took me much longer to find anything of value on the official forums than it did by visiting 2-3 community sites such as Warcry or Allakhazam. I used those 2 sites in particular exponentially more than I used the official site. The only reason I went to the main site was to get the official patch notes. I used the Herald constantly when I was playing DAoC.
Oh no, let me make it clear. I do not know exactly what it would cost to maintain official forums, but being in the IT industry and knowing a bit about web servers, websites, server loads, sys admin salaries, etc., I could probably come up with a reasonable guess if I spent the time crunching the numbers in Excel. Yes, it would cost some dinero. With that being said, in my 10 years of professional experience, I have never seen a scenario where the community (ergo, the customer) didn't benefit with proper handling of communication channels. In online gaming, this would partially equate to the existence of official forums.
As to your experiences of EQ, I can't comment because I honestly never played it. I *suspect* that a lot of the problems related to that game had to do with Sony, because (this is MHO, don't attack me here ) everything they touch turns to lead. Again, you are more knowledgable than me WRT EQ though.
As for the WoW forums, I used them incessantly. All the time. I went there for blacksmithing tips, warrior and pally skill tweaks/updates, recommended class changes, upcoming patch notes...basically, everything except for quests which I used Thottbot for. As purely anecdotal evidence, everyone (literally) that I know IRL used those forums that played the game. And I'm talking an entire office I used to work at, family members, and friends. Their forums became "mission critical" to us, and outside fansites became supplementary material.
Again, you keep assuming that just because there are no official forums there will be no "proper handling of communication channels". Just because this is the manner a lot of companies take, doesn't mean it is the only one. And you left off one little aspect in your theoretical cost analysis there, Mods. Even if you figure a ratio of 1 mod per 10,000 users, which IMO is a VERY high estimate and probably not going to work realistically, for a game with 2 million subs/forumites, that is still a team of 200 people JUST to Mod the forums... That is larger than the actual entire development team. Even if you take it further and say 1 Mod per 20,000 users. That's a Mod team of 100 people, which is still larger than most development teams out there.
I played WoW for quite a while, still play it actually. I have never used the official forums, all of that information is just as readily accessible on fansites. Just because you and your friends/coworkers/family chose those forums as your source of info doesn't mean they're the only available source.
Richard J. Cox "There were much of the beautiful, much of the wanton, much of the bizarre, something of the terrible, and not a little of that which might have excited disgust."
It is not needed because of the originator of the game. Mythic has had a very successful policy of no official forums for years. They supply a direct feedback and Q&A mechanism through the Camelot Herald site. In addition, they do very actively monitor indy forums. But, the main communications link is via the various Camelot Herald mails. What this allows Mythic to do is eliminate all the BS that 99% of forum traffic is made up of (WoW forums, for instance). So, don't despair. There will be the equivilant of Camelot Herald for WaR. And ways to get legitimate feedback and questions regarding WaR back to Mythic.
Exactly, same system as DAoC, just kicked up a notch or 2. Cause really, why just repeat when you can improve?
Richard J. Cox "There were much of the beautiful, much of the wanton, much of the bizarre, something of the terrible, and not a little of that which might have excited disgust."
No one changed my mind about wanting an official forum, but I did have one thought. Someone mentioned Server forums. Now, I love Server-based forums, they allow a specific community to plan events and trade. And it's true that most of the time, third party sites will not host Server forums.
But considering the RvR focus of the game, Server forums would not be a good idea. People are going to be planning raids on the enemy. But there are always some idiots that post this information publicly. If there were Server forums, then raid plans would often get ruined by some careless poster. The other side would be alerted, and they'd be prepared. I saw it a couple times on my server in WoW.
"Hey, what time was that raid on Darnassus tonight?"
And when the Horde showed up, half the Alliance was waiting for them...
Seriously. It's Are'el. This forum doesn't allow apostrophes in usernames.
No one changed my mind about wanting an official forum, but I did have one thought. Someone mentioned Server forums. Now, I love Server-based forums, they allow a specific community to plan events and trade. And it's true that most of the time, third party sites will not host Server forums. But considering the RvR focus of the game, Server forums would not be a good idea. People are going to be planning raids on the enemy. But there are always some idiots that post this information publicly. If there were Server forums, then raid plans would often get ruined by some careless poster. The other side would be alerted, and they'd be prepared. I saw it a couple times on my server in WoW. "Hey, what time was that raid on Darnassus tonight?" And when the Horde showed up, half the Alliance was waiting for them...
Actually most fansites will add whatever forum sections their community feels it needs, if you ask nicely and the admins think there is a real community desire there. VN has server/cluster forums for DAoC. Pretty sure several of the other fansites did as well back in the day.
Richard J. Cox "There were much of the beautiful, much of the wanton, much of the bizarre, something of the terrible, and not a little of that which might have excited disgust."
When I started on Palomides, there was an actual site set up for the server. The lady that ran it (her first name was Georgia I think) was actually hired on by Mythic to work on the Camelot Herald. I prefer to not have official forums. I'd rather see the money required to set up and maintain them spent on other things, like WAR Roundtables, bonuses for the EA-Mythic team and put back into other aspects of the game.
You keep assuming that just because there are no forums that means there is no "direct line of communication" to the Dev team... You don't have to have forums give the customer said ability to address concerns, suggestions or anything else with the Dev team.
Official forums are no better for the type of information sharing (crafting, class skills, etc) than the fansite forums. Trust me, any fansite worth visiting out there will have all the info you need, you won't need to bounce around between 5 different ones.
We will simply have to agree to disagree then. I just don't think visiting X number of fansites comes even close to using official forums for a game. They're great supplementary material, sure, and they *could* suffice for games (like Civilization) where MP is a feature of the game and not the crux of it.
I give you props for at least not saying that official forums are *bad* though, because given WoW's enormous success, and given how much their forums are used, that argument would fall on deaf ears IMO.
I've said from the start that they indeed have their pros, just that IMO, and the primary word here being opinion, both as a gamer from that side of the fence, and as a Dev from this side of the fence, I feel that the cons outweigh the pros.
Richard J. Cox "There were much of the beautiful, much of the wanton, much of the bizarre, something of the terrible, and not a little of that which might have excited disgust."
Exactly, same system as DAoC, just kicked up a notch or 2. Cause really, why just repeat when you can improve?
OK, everyone please fill me in on DAoC's sub numbers. Was it really as financially successful a game as WoW is? I honestly don't know, I'm asking you all here. What I'm driving at, is we should probably be using highly successful games as barometers. And please don't think I'm suggesting that official forums are the be-all, end-all, only reason a game would succeed. Of course not. But one cannot deny that WoW has not suffered in the least by having the forums.
Hopefully you all see what I mean?
EDIT: Just so you all understand where I'm coming from...I have a degree in CS, but weird twists and turns in my career allowed me to taste a lot of the consulting/business aspect of IT (which I thoroughly enjoy). So I mean no offense to anyone when I ask business-related questions; I always look at the bottom line in terms of revenue and what-not, and to me that's what any business (including a gaming company) is about: profit. And I've always believed in tearing apart the competition to see what they've done well and what they've failed at. So please don't jump down my throat about WoW, I'm looking at it from a purely business perspective.
Actually most fansites will add whatever forum sections their community feels it needs, if you ask nicely and the admins think there is a real community desire there. VN has server/cluster forums for DAoC. Pretty sure several of the other fansites did as well back in the day.
Let's assume for the sake of argument that the majority of the WAR community wants official forums -- something that is obviously not game-breaking (e.g., buff this, nerf that). Should the paying customer have to beg for them...that is, if it's clear they want them, shouldn't they be provided?
When I started on Palomides, there was an actual site set up for the server. The lady that ran it (her first name was Georgia I think) was actually hired on by Mythic to work on the Camelot Herald. I prefer to not have official forums. I'd rather see the money required to set up and maintain them spent on other things, like WAR Roundtables, bonuses for the EA-Mythic team and put back into other aspects of the game.
If you cater to your customer in various common sensical ways (i.e., non game-breaking ways), there won't need to be any bonuses paid out, because you'll get the reputation as a customer-friendly company, which will create a financial boon for the company.
Sorry, I think customer service is highly, highly important. This'll be the last post I make in this thread, because I'm starting to beat a dead horse. Good luck to everyone though!
Exactly, same system as DAoC, just kicked up a notch or 2. Cause really, why just repeat when you can improve?
OK, everyone please fill me in on DAoC's sub numbers. Was it really as financially successful a game as WoW is? I honestly don't know, I'm asking you all here. What I'm driving at, is we should probably be using highly successful games as barometers. And please don't think I'm suggesting that official forums are the be-all, end-all, only reason a game would succeed. Of course not. But one cannot deny that WoW has not suffered in the least by having the forums.
Hopefully you all see what I mean?
I really don't think you can give the credit for WoW's success to their forums. They're forums are horrible. I've never been on there and been able to find what I"m looking for. And their site, while it offers a sort of game guide, has no item list, ability list, etc. etc.
So you STILL have to go to fansites to find in-depth information about the game. And if you notice, these fansites also have forums. So why not just put it all in one place.
I think the key to making fansites work is the developer linking to these fansites, so that the information is readily available to the customer, whether it's from them or not. There's a link on warhammeronline.com that lists "Forums and Fansites"
That's enough for me, so I'll be happy that I don't usually have to wade through forum crap to find the answers I'm looking for.
--------------------------------------------- I live to fight, and fight to live.
Exactly, same system as DAoC, just kicked up a notch or 2. Cause really, why just repeat when you can improve?
OK, everyone please fill me in on DAoC's sub numbers. Was it really as financially successful a game as WoW is? I honestly don't know, I'm asking you all here. What I'm driving at, is we should probably be using highly successful games as barometers. And please don't think I'm suggesting that official forums are the be-all, end-all, only reason a game would succeed. Of course not. But one cannot deny that WoW has not suffered in the least by having the forums.
Hopefully you all see what I mean?
I really don't think you can give the credit for WoW's success to their forums. They're forums are horrible. I've never been on there and been able to find what I"m looking for. And their site, while it offers a sort of game guide, has no item list, ability list, etc. etc.
So you STILL have to go to fansites to find in-depth information about the game. And if you notice, these fansites also have forums. So why not just put it all in one place.
I think the key to making fansites work is the developer linking to these fansites, so that the information is readily available to the customer, whether it's from them or not. There's a link on warhammeronline.com that lists "Forums and Fansites"
That's enough for me, so I'll be happy that I don't usually have to wade through forum crap to find the answers I'm looking for.
LOL sorry, one more post (I lied earlier!) I respect your opinion, and by no means am I saying WoW "roxxors" and everything else "suxxors". On the contrary, I think WAR is shaping up pretty darn well. I just thoroughly enjoy looking at things from a financial perspective -- I REALLY find WoW to be an intriguing piece of software. In fact, if I worked for Blizz, I'd love to do my thesis on the game's business model. It's fascinating to me.
Definitely agree with the poster above me. WoW would have been a huge success regardless of if they had official forums or not.
Secondly, I'm really tired of WoW being used as the barometer of what a successful MMO is. This isn't so much pointed at you directly, just taking this moment to drop a general rant from all the "Will it kill WoW?" threads I see everywhere. A MMO doesn't need to have NEAR the number of subs that WoW has to be a success. By that standard every single MMO to date other than WoW has been an abysmal failure, which simply isn't the case. DAoC was a HUGE financial success and it never topped more than about 300k subs in it's prime. Both it and UO are still hugely profitable and therefore still financially successful with their current sub counts. Heck, even AC and AO are still kicking and bringing in profit after all these years.
Richard J. Cox "There were much of the beautiful, much of the wanton, much of the bizarre, something of the terrible, and not a little of that which might have excited disgust."
Forums aren't needed. They are usually infested with rabid fanbois who deny anything could possibly be wrong with the game. Its hurts the game more than it helps. Mythic does a great thing with polls. That is the true way to understand what the comsumer wants. Not a flame infested fanboi hangout.
My vote is for that its a good thing they arent having any Official boards. All they should have is a Tech support chat. Where you can connect with a tech support employee and get one on one help...Kinda like Myth Wars has. (see more details on Myth Wars site)
There can be many different manners to contact tech support without needing Forums to do it.
Agreed. But one can't deny how invaluable official forums are, in terms of gathering the community together in an organized fashion. Plus it facilitates easier (and more efficient) information sharing, and one cannot minimize the perceived "direct line of communication" effect that they have on the customer base.
I've been working in the software industry for a decade now (yeah I'm getting old), primarily supporting the US govt. One thing that has never been lost on me, is how important it is to give the customer the ability to address concerns, suggestions, or information sharing amongst the community in an organized manner. For games, it allows the users some catharsis just to vent at the CMs; for others, it allows them to discuss class tips, techniques, or game quests amongst each other in one centralized location.
And even with all the bashing we do of WoW, one has to objectively admit that their forums work -- very well. Sure, there's a whole lot of complaining that goes on. But many of us used the forums on a daily basis to get insight into crafting, class skills, and upcoming game changes. In today's online gaming communities, and with how pervasive the Web is, IME it doesn't make business sense to *not* have official forums.
You keep assuming that just because there are no forums that means there is no "direct line of communication" to the Dev team... You don't have to have forums give the customer said ability to address concerns, suggestions or anything else with the Dev team.
Official forums are no better for the type of information sharing (crafting, class skills, etc) than the fansite forums. Trust me, any fansite worth visiting out there will have all the info you need, you won't need to bounce around between 5 different ones. The problem with fan sites is the update to them can be sporadic and the cost of running them falls entirely on the people running the fan site. Information on them can be out of date or incorrect and doesn't draw everyone together to speak with one voice because people go to their favorite site.
I really would like to see EA/Mythic host a site because it will centralize the community. As I posted in a agreement in a different thread i would even be willing to may a small surcharge in addition to the monthly subscription for the ability to post on the official forum on the understanding that there would be fair and consistent moderation.
The problem with feedback regarding bugs/gameplay issues they way I think you intend it to be run is the feeling that people are just posting notes into a black hole with no feedback from Mythic on issues raised.
Certainly an official board needs to be strictly moderated, but without mass deletion of negative posts (if they have been posted in a constructive manner), Wow forums are not a good example of moderation , the General and Class forums have become quagmires of trolling and nerfs cries, the reason? Blizzard don't employ 24hour moderators and any moderation standards that are applied are largly inconsistent and unknown.
But done right I think, like many, official forums can be of great use to the developer and community, so i've voted that no official forums for WAR are a bad thing, it won't stop me trying the game however, and hopefully sooner than release Hint Hint
I'm sure there's no way the centralized forum fans and those of us who are not will ever come to agreement. But the truth is, from a business standpoint, the number of people who will decide not to play the game because there is no centralized forum is close to nill. Meanwhile, the alternative tools provided give the design folks at mythic just as much feedback, without the need for mass moderation and the social mire that centralized forums always degenerate into. For game information, the Herald sites (www.camelotherald.com and soon www.warherald.com) provide the most comprehensive source of game information and tools I've personally ever seen. When people need to raise the hue and cry and try to get some grass roots attention they can do it on fan forums just as effectively - the folks at Mythic are well known for regularly scanning the large fan forums to watch for trends and feedback.
My congratulations to the participants in this thread!! This is the most reasonable, civil and considerate discussion I have seen on a MMORPG.COM forum in a long time. WOOT!!!
My opinion, I'm fine with no offical forum. DAoC was not harmed by lack of an offical forum. IMHO, the forum rants of a vocal minority largely contributed to the detriment of DAoC when ToA damaged the community so badly (ToA caused me to cancel the first time). But that has already been accurately discussed in this thread. The Herald always provided more than enough information to meet my needs.
Definitely agree with the poster above me. WoW would have been a huge success regardless of if they had official forums or not.
Secondly, I'm really tired of WoW being used as the barometer of what a successful MMO is. This isn't so much pointed at you directly, just taking this moment to drop a general rant from all the "Will it kill WoW?" threads I see everywhere. A MMO doesn't need to have NEAR the number of subs that WoW has to be a success. By that standard every single MMO to date other than WoW has been an abysmal failure, which simply isn't the case. DAoC was a HUGE financial success and it never topped more than about 300k subs in it's prime. Both it and UO are still hugely profitable and therefore still financially successful with their current sub counts. Heck, even AC and AO are still kicking and bringing in profit after all these years.
I think my posts above made it pretty clear that WoW's success wasn't solely about the forums...but like I had said, it obviously didn't hurt their bottom line. And comparing to WoW is the natural course of things, because they're the top dog. (I COMPLETELY understand your general rant about the "Will it kill WoW" threads though. My goodness, those folks were frustrating in-game quite often.) If you look at Microsoft for example, everyone compares them to other companies, because like it or not, they are the BMOC.
I honestly respect Blizz/Vivendi, Microsoft, etc. for their business savvy and moxy. When I stop and think about MS in particular, it amazes me how they have helped to revolutionize the Information Age -- whether people want to admit it or not. And for us Americans, we should all be proud of our companies that succeed in such an overwhelming manner, including Blizz.
BTW, do you or anyone have gross and/or net figures on the games you're talking about? And sub numbers? I'm curious to see them, and to determine what people's idea of a good profit margin is. I understand if it's company proprietary though, assuming Mythic is privately traded company...(I have no idea)?
I'm sure there's no way the centralized forum fans and those of us who are not will ever come to agreement. But the truth is, from a business standpoint, the number of people who will decide not to play the game because there is no centralized forum is close to nill.
I agree with you there. Admittedly, I am in the minority on this one (i.e., !forum == !playing).
I don't see what playing and enjoying a game has to do with the forums. I do see where these people are coming from to an extent and it is most definitely true that a game or game company for that matter who has a central forums and website can reach out to their subscribers much more easier, and this does perhaps provide for easier access to subscribers to the information. It benefits both ways.
Here's the thing however, the idea behind an MMORPG is to have the community INSIDE you game. That was the original concept of it all. Forums are really there for those who can't get on the game if the game is down for whatever reason, or is most commonly used to clean up in-game discussions. Those chat rooms and various chat functions aren't in the game for role players only...
For those of you who all talk about WoW, when was the last time you were on their forums to see the havoc being brought by the insane number of immature posters. Most companies after seeing that will tend to stay away, it does make it look really bad upon Blizzard that their forums run strictly controlled in some aspects, but are a complete wreck. This becomes even more of an issue the more popular a game is, and most companies are not going to have interest in paying a group of people to work around the clock to sit there and do nothing but watch the forums, most companies barely want to pay for tech support and rely on outsourcing...
There is one thing that I do believe that as a game developer they should have if they elect to not have forums. There should be an efficient and very complete, detailed, and accurate way of retrieving technical support. This could be through in-game or a help system on the website, or a combination of both. Blizzard Entertainment combines all three, but nobody bothers to use the first two and usually rely on the forums for their tech support.
Just browsing through this topic I didn't see it... Guild Wars if you remember doesn't have a forum and neither does Vanguard. We do all of course hope that Warhammer doesn't take Vanguard's path and takes something more like Guild Wars did.
Comments
Agreed. But one can't deny how invaluable official forums are, in terms of gathering the community together in an organized fashion. Plus it facilitates easier (and more efficient) information sharing, and one cannot minimize the perceived "direct line of communication" effect that they have on the customer base.
I've been working in the software industry for a decade now (yeah I'm getting old), primarily supporting the US govt. One thing that has never been lost on me, is how important it is to give the customer the ability to address concerns, suggestions, or information sharing amongst the community in an organized manner. For games, it allows the users some catharsis just to vent at the CMs; for others, it allows them to discuss class tips, techniques, or game quests amongst each other in one centralized location.
And even with all the bashing we do of WoW, one has to objectively admit that their forums work -- very well. Sure, there's a whole lot of complaining that goes on. But many of us used the forums on a daily basis to get insight into crafting, class skills, and upcoming game changes. In today's online gaming communities, and with how pervasive the Web is, IME it doesn't make business sense to *not* have official forums.
You keep assuming that just because there are no forums that means there is no "direct line of communication" to the Dev team... You don't have to have forums give the customer said ability to address concerns, suggestions or anything else with the Dev team.
Official forums are no better for the type of information sharing (crafting, class skills, etc) than the fansite forums. Trust me, any fansite worth visiting out there will have all the info you need, you won't need to bounce around between 5 different ones.
Richard J. Cox
"There were much of the beautiful, much of the wanton, much of the bizarre, something of the terrible, and not a little of that which might have excited disgust."
I had nothing to do with the decision for DAoC to not have forums, I wasn't even in the industry back then, much less working for Mythic. And honestly, opinions are equally valid regardless of which side of the fence you're on.
I can honestly say I have never frequented the official forums for ANY MMO I have ever played. And trust me, I'd bet a LOT of money that I've spent more time playing MMOs than just about everyone in this discussion. Even if you take away the 2 years I spent doing it as a job for this very site. The only thing I've ever found on official forums that I couldn't find on fansite forums was an excessive amount of whining, flaming, trolling and an overall cesspit.
Yeah, ToA sucked, I think that's been well established, not really a bright ray of enlightenment there. But quite honestly, a lot of that was due to listening to the extremely vocal minority, which for the record are generally the type of people on the forums screaming the loudest that their class is underpowered and need a boost even though they're constantly in the top of the RP gainers each week.DAoC's feedback system, IMO, is a far better system than official forums. Feedback forms are a lot easier to track and tally over periods of time than posts on a forum are. I can pull up my feedback report and tell you exactly how many times last May that someone wrote in and said Scouts needed some love or that Vamps were overpowered. I can spit you out a graph showing how many more times each month for the entire year someone said Valks are overpowered vs Valks are underpowered. I can spit out a list of the top 20 issues reported each month for the last year complete with breakdowns of how many times each item has appeared in the top 20, the percentage of total times that issue has been reported vs the total number of issues, etc.
So yeah, after having worked on this side of the fence long enough to have an idea which manner is easier to collect ideas, issues, suggestions, etc from the players, either forums or the feedback system, I'm definitely in favor of the feedback system.
These types of posts exist anywhere you go...not having official forums isn't going to change it, all it succeeds in doing is making it harder for valid concerns to be addressed. And if you don't want to read the whining posts, don't read them. It really is as simple as not mousing over and clicking that post.
With all of WoW's flaws, I have to give them a LOT of credit with their forums. It is truly a knowledge base for the game.
And on the same note, the informative posts, the class skill guides, the crafting guides, the overall knowledge base for the game as you call it, will exist anywhere as well. As I said above, any fansite worth it's and wants to be competitive will have all of that. Heck, there are already fansites out there for WAR that have Character Builders and interactive maps in place and the game is still almost a year from launch.Richard J. Cox
"There were much of the beautiful, much of the wanton, much of the bizarre, something of the terrible, and not a little of that which might have excited disgust."
Richard J. Cox
"There were much of the beautiful, much of the wanton, much of the bizarre, something of the terrible, and not a little of that which might have excited disgust."
Oh no, let me make it clear. I do not know exactly what it would cost to maintain official forums, but being in the IT industry and knowing a bit about web servers, websites, server loads, sys admin salaries, etc., I could probably come up with a reasonable guess if I spent the time crunching the numbers in Excel. Yes, it would cost some dinero. With that being said, in my 10 years of professional experience, I have never seen a scenario where the community (ergo, the customer) didn't benefit with proper handling of communication channels. In online gaming, this would partially equate to the existence of official forums.
As to your experiences of EQ, I can't comment because I honestly never played it. I *suspect* that a lot of the problems related to that game had to do with Sony, because (this is MHO, don't attack me here
) everything they touch turns to lead. Again, you are more knowledgable than me WRT EQ though.
As for the WoW forums, I used them incessantly. All the time. I went there for blacksmithing tips, warrior and pally skill tweaks/updates, recommended class changes, upcoming patch notes...basically, everything except for quests which I used Thottbot for. As purely anecdotal evidence, everyone (literally) that I know IRL used those forums that played the game. And I'm talking an entire office I used to work at, family members, and friends. Their forums became "mission critical" to us, and outside fansites became supplementary material.
Again, you keep assuming that just because there are no official forums there will be no "proper handling of communication channels". Just because this is the manner a lot of companies take, doesn't mean it is the only one. And you left off one little aspect in your theoretical cost analysis there, Mods. Even if you figure a ratio of 1 mod per 10,000 users, which IMO is a VERY high estimate and probably not going to work realistically, for a game with 2 million subs/forumites, that is still a team of 200 people JUST to Mod the forums... That is larger than the actual entire development team. Even if you take it further and say 1 Mod per 20,000 users. That's a Mod team of 100 people, which is still larger than most development teams out there.
I played WoW for quite a while, still play it actually. I have never used the official forums, all of that information is just as readily accessible on fansites. Just because you and your friends/coworkers/family chose those forums as your source of info doesn't mean they're the only available source.
Richard J. Cox
"There were much of the beautiful, much of the wanton, much of the bizarre, something of the terrible, and not a little of that which might have excited disgust."
Richard J. Cox
"There were much of the beautiful, much of the wanton, much of the bizarre, something of the terrible, and not a little of that which might have excited disgust."
No one changed my mind about wanting an official forum, but I did have one thought. Someone mentioned Server forums. Now, I love Server-based forums, they allow a specific community to plan events and trade. And it's true that most of the time, third party sites will not host Server forums.
But considering the RvR focus of the game, Server forums would not be a good idea. People are going to be planning raids on the enemy. But there are always some idiots that post this information publicly. If there were Server forums, then raid plans would often get ruined by some careless poster. The other side would be alerted, and they'd be prepared. I saw it a couple times on my server in WoW.
"Hey, what time was that raid on Darnassus tonight?"
And when the Horde showed up, half the Alliance was waiting for them...
Seriously.
It's Are'el. This forum doesn't allow apostrophes in usernames.
Richard J. Cox
"There were much of the beautiful, much of the wanton, much of the bizarre, something of the terrible, and not a little of that which might have excited disgust."
We will simply have to agree to disagree then. I just don't think visiting X number of fansites comes even close to using official forums for a game. They're great supplementary material, sure, and they *could* suffice for games (like Civilization) where MP is a feature of the game and not the crux of it.
I give you props for at least not saying that official forums are *bad* though, because given WoW's enormous success, and given how much their forums are used, that argument would fall on deaf ears IMO.
Richard J. Cox
"There were much of the beautiful, much of the wanton, much of the bizarre, something of the terrible, and not a little of that which might have excited disgust."
OK, everyone please fill me in on DAoC's sub numbers. Was it really as financially successful a game as WoW is? I honestly don't know, I'm asking you all here. What I'm driving at, is we should probably be using highly successful games as barometers. And please don't think I'm suggesting that official forums are the be-all, end-all, only reason a game would succeed. Of course not. But one cannot deny that WoW has not suffered in the least by having the forums.
Hopefully you all see what I mean?
EDIT: Just so you all understand where I'm coming from...I have a degree in CS, but weird twists and turns in my career allowed me to taste a lot of the consulting/business aspect of IT (which I thoroughly enjoy). So I mean no offense to anyone when I ask business-related questions; I always look at the bottom line in terms of revenue and what-not, and to me that's what any business (including a gaming company) is about: profit. And I've always believed in tearing apart the competition to see what they've done well and what they've failed at. So please don't jump down my throat about WoW, I'm looking at it from a purely business perspective.
If you cater to your customer in various common sensical ways (i.e., non game-breaking ways), there won't need to be any bonuses paid out, because you'll get the reputation as a customer-friendly company, which will create a financial boon for the company.
Sorry, I think customer service is highly, highly important. This'll be the last post I make in this thread, because I'm starting to beat a dead horse. Good luck to everyone though!
OK, everyone please fill me in on DAoC's sub numbers. Was it really as financially successful a game as WoW is? I honestly don't know, I'm asking you all here. What I'm driving at, is we should probably be using highly successful games as barometers. And please don't think I'm suggesting that official forums are the be-all, end-all, only reason a game would succeed. Of course not. But one cannot deny that WoW has not suffered in the least by having the forums.
Hopefully you all see what I mean?
I really don't think you can give the credit for WoW's success to their forums. They're forums are horrible. I've never been on there and been able to find what I"m looking for. And their site, while it offers a sort of game guide, has no item list, ability list, etc. etc.
So you STILL have to go to fansites to find in-depth information about the game. And if you notice, these fansites also have forums. So why not just put it all in one place.
I think the key to making fansites work is the developer linking to these fansites, so that the information is readily available to the customer, whether it's from them or not. There's a link on warhammeronline.com that lists "Forums and Fansites"
That's enough for me, so I'll be happy that I don't usually have to wade through forum crap to find the answers I'm looking for.
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I live to fight, and fight to live.
OK, everyone please fill me in on DAoC's sub numbers. Was it really as financially successful a game as WoW is? I honestly don't know, I'm asking you all here. What I'm driving at, is we should probably be using highly successful games as barometers. And please don't think I'm suggesting that official forums are the be-all, end-all, only reason a game would succeed. Of course not. But one cannot deny that WoW has not suffered in the least by having the forums.
Hopefully you all see what I mean?
I really don't think you can give the credit for WoW's success to their forums. They're forums are horrible. I've never been on there and been able to find what I"m looking for. And their site, while it offers a sort of game guide, has no item list, ability list, etc. etc.
So you STILL have to go to fansites to find in-depth information about the game. And if you notice, these fansites also have forums. So why not just put it all in one place.
I think the key to making fansites work is the developer linking to these fansites, so that the information is readily available to the customer, whether it's from them or not. There's a link on warhammeronline.com that lists "Forums and Fansites"
That's enough for me, so I'll be happy that I don't usually have to wade through forum crap to find the answers I'm looking for.
LOL sorry, one more post (I lied earlier!) I respect your opinion, and by no means am I saying WoW "roxxors" and everything else "suxxors". On the contrary, I think WAR is shaping up pretty darn well. I just thoroughly enjoy looking at things from a financial perspective -- I REALLY find WoW to be an intriguing piece of software. In fact, if I worked for Blizz, I'd love to do my thesis on the game's business model. It's fascinating to me.
Over and out.
Secondly, I'm really tired of WoW being used as the barometer of what a successful MMO is. This isn't so much pointed at you directly, just taking this moment to drop a general rant from all the "Will it kill WoW?" threads I see everywhere. A MMO doesn't need to have NEAR the number of subs that WoW has to be a success. By that standard every single MMO to date other than WoW has been an abysmal failure, which simply isn't the case. DAoC was a HUGE financial success and it never topped more than about 300k subs in it's prime. Both it and UO are still hugely profitable and therefore still financially successful with their current sub counts. Heck, even AC and AO are still kicking and bringing in profit after all these years.
Richard J. Cox
"There were much of the beautiful, much of the wanton, much of the bizarre, something of the terrible, and not a little of that which might have excited disgust."
Agreed. But one can't deny how invaluable official forums are, in terms of gathering the community together in an organized fashion. Plus it facilitates easier (and more efficient) information sharing, and one cannot minimize the perceived "direct line of communication" effect that they have on the customer base.
I've been working in the software industry for a decade now (yeah I'm getting old), primarily supporting the US govt. One thing that has never been lost on me, is how important it is to give the customer the ability to address concerns, suggestions, or information sharing amongst the community in an organized manner. For games, it allows the users some catharsis just to vent at the CMs; for others, it allows them to discuss class tips, techniques, or game quests amongst each other in one centralized location.
And even with all the bashing we do of WoW, one has to objectively admit that their forums work -- very well. Sure, there's a whole lot of complaining that goes on. But many of us used the forums on a daily basis to get insight into crafting, class skills, and upcoming game changes. In today's online gaming communities, and with how pervasive the Web is, IME it doesn't make business sense to *not* have official forums.
You keep assuming that just because there are no forums that means there is no "direct line of communication" to the Dev team... You don't have to have forums give the customer said ability to address concerns, suggestions or anything else with the Dev team.
Official forums are no better for the type of information sharing (crafting, class skills, etc) than the fansite forums. Trust me, any fansite worth visiting out there will have all the info you need, you won't need to bounce around between 5 different ones. The problem with fan sites is the update to them can be sporadic and the cost of running them falls entirely on the people running the fan site. Information on them can be out of date or incorrect and doesn't draw everyone together to speak with one voice because people go to their favorite site.
I really would like to see EA/Mythic host a site because it will centralize the community. As I posted in a agreement in a different thread i would even be willing to may a small surcharge in addition to the monthly subscription for the ability to post on the official forum on the understanding that there would be fair and consistent moderation.
The problem with feedback regarding bugs/gameplay issues they way I think you intend it to be run is the feeling that people are just posting notes into a black hole with no feedback from Mythic on issues raised.
Certainly an official board needs to be strictly moderated, but without mass deletion of negative posts (if they have been posted in a constructive manner), Wow forums are not a good example of moderation , the General and Class forums have become quagmires of trolling and nerfs cries, the reason? Blizzard don't employ 24hour moderators and any moderation standards that are applied are largly inconsistent and unknown.
But done right I think, like many, official forums can be of great use to the developer and community, so i've voted that no official forums for WAR are a bad thing, it won't stop me trying the game however, and hopefully sooner than release Hint Hint
I would have major concerns about even buying this game now that will not be offical forums.
You can not pass this over to some fan site its not profesional.
This to me shows me that
you as a company do not want to listen to your community
Or even care about there opinions and as a paying customer you shold always listen to your community base.
and it is also a way to ignore your comunitys issues.
It preventa a person who may be interested in trying the game from reading negative or postive topics about the game.
Most people who think about a new mmo usualy check there forums to see whats going on and if there is any major issues etc
so thats my opinion and im sure im not the only one who would think this.
My congratulations to the participants in this thread!! This is the most reasonable, civil and considerate discussion I have seen on a MMORPG.COM forum in a long time. WOOT!!!
My opinion, I'm fine with no offical forum. DAoC was not harmed by lack of an offical forum. IMHO, the forum rants of a vocal minority largely contributed to the detriment of DAoC when ToA damaged the community so badly (ToA caused me to cancel the first time). But that has already been accurately discussed in this thread. The Herald always provided more than enough information to meet my needs.
I think my posts above made it pretty clear that WoW's success wasn't solely about the forums...but like I had said, it obviously didn't hurt their bottom line. And comparing to WoW is the natural course of things, because they're the top dog. (I COMPLETELY understand your general rant about the "Will it kill WoW" threads though. My goodness, those folks were frustrating in-game quite often.) If you look at Microsoft for example, everyone compares them to other companies, because like it or not, they are the BMOC.
I honestly respect Blizz/Vivendi, Microsoft, etc. for their business savvy and moxy. When I stop and think about MS in particular, it amazes me how they have helped to revolutionize the Information Age -- whether people want to admit it or not. And for us Americans, we should all be proud of our companies that succeed in such an overwhelming manner, including Blizz.
BTW, do you or anyone have gross and/or net figures on the games you're talking about? And sub numbers? I'm curious to see them, and to determine what people's idea of a good profit margin is. I understand if it's company proprietary though, assuming Mythic is privately traded company...(I have no idea)?
I don't see what playing and enjoying a game has to do with the forums. I do see where these people are coming from to an extent and it is most definitely true that a game or game company for that matter who has a central forums and website can reach out to their subscribers much more easier, and this does perhaps provide for easier access to subscribers to the information. It benefits both ways.
Here's the thing however, the idea behind an MMORPG is to have the community INSIDE you game. That was the original concept of it all. Forums are really there for those who can't get on the game if the game is down for whatever reason, or is most commonly used to clean up in-game discussions. Those chat rooms and various chat functions aren't in the game for role players only...
For those of you who all talk about WoW, when was the last time you were on their forums to see the havoc being brought by the insane number of immature posters. Most companies after seeing that will tend to stay away, it does make it look really bad upon Blizzard that their forums run strictly controlled in some aspects, but are a complete wreck. This becomes even more of an issue the more popular a game is, and most companies are not going to have interest in paying a group of people to work around the clock to sit there and do nothing but watch the forums, most companies barely want to pay for tech support and rely on outsourcing...
There is one thing that I do believe that as a game developer they should have if they elect to not have forums. There should be an efficient and very complete, detailed, and accurate way of retrieving technical support. This could be through in-game or a help system on the website, or a combination of both. Blizzard Entertainment combines all three, but nobody bothers to use the first two and usually rely on the forums for their tech support.
Just browsing through this topic I didn't see it... Guild Wars if you remember doesn't have a forum and neither does Vanguard. We do all of course hope that Warhammer doesn't take Vanguard's path and takes something more like Guild Wars did.