Originally posted by Aelfinn Wrong, quotes which demonstrate that time+effort= better reward, and nothing more. As I and others have posted multiple times, and proven with multiple different quotes, the devs fully intend and consider other sources than raiding to be just as difficult.
Umm... which quotes exactly? I've recall the quote where Jayde directly says that he considers raiding to require more effort than not raiding, and the other one where one of the devs specifically states that raiding will not provide rewards 50 times better than nonraid rewards, and another where the devs specifically stated that the advantage from raid gear over nonraid gear would not be overwhelming. I have not, however, seen a quote from you in which the developers state that non raid content will be rewarded just as well as raid content, in fact the quotes you've provided consistently avoid saying that.
Then again, you are the one who seized on a statement in a language that no one in the discussion could read as proof positive of your position.
Bear in mind that I don't disagree that completing raid content requires more effort than nonraid content; organizing a large group of people to show up at once and to put up with boring repitition does require effort. I simply don't find the kind of effort involved to be enjoyable at all, and so have no desire to play a game which makes you choose between doing something unenjoyable or being second rate. If someone decided to make a taxing game in which you had to correctly fill out tax forms every time you made money, I would have no interest in it either.
The movie was intended on being quite accurate to Howards material but it was changed in some ways. Howard was also freinds with Lovecraft and they used alot of each others ideas so alot of weird stuff can happen in the universe. I've heard that there is a torrent on mininova that has ALOT of open source material in one package. Comics/ interviews etc. The source material for Conan is actually much richer than LOTR. Once you read some of the stories you will be very ecxcited about the possibilities for this game. having been an Anarchy Online player for years I know FunCom has the skill and respect for the Conan universe to pull this off.
I agree Fion. I can't imagine a company like Sony or EA doing a game like this. Everything would be boiled down to the lowest common denominator. Bold descisions would be killed by committee and watered down to accomodate expiedience. I do think FunCom will make things work because the game deserves certain features and needs to remain true to it's original vision. I look at other big games on the Horizon...specificaly Vanguard and though it seems a vast game...aside from the diplomatic and craftign systems I just veiw it as WOW with better graphics and flying mounts. Flying mounts is cool yes, but the feature does not make a game. Conan, for me... is the next logical step. In the meantime I will be playing Minions Of Mirth.
I have always assumed that fanbois aren't the most inteligent bunch, but after raiding trough this thread I am simply amazed how dumb they actualy can be.
Sturm and Aelfin, you have been owned by a superior intelect, it's like you have (to continue oh so fond WoW analogy) green brain and Pan has epix brain, so in a sense, you have been ganked repeatedly.
Pantastic, prooving someone wrong doesen't proove you right!
After reading this "discussion" I kinda hope that raiding gear will be superior to PVP gear (as long as it's not overwhelming, whatever that actualy means), why? Cuz then we would have PVP guilds and PVE guilds, and PVP matches would be PVP gear vs the best gear, and there ain't nothing I like more then beating someone who has better gear then me. That's a true victory, at least for me, and not having the best gear. Why would anyone even want the best gear, it's like admiting that you suck in PVP, and whatever people say, this will be a PVP game.
PVE gets you hooked, but only thing that can truly keep you playing is PVP, so I'm not worried that we will have to face the same issues like in some other games...
edit>> Oh, a question. Does anyone know much about PVP? I realy like the new arena system in WoW and the idea of 2-5 teams fighting each other in close quarters, each fight beeing as close to fair as it gets is realy appealing to me. Don't get me wrong I like the siege and all that idea but sometimes it's nice to have a personal victory, sometimes there is no room for us in me
Oh, and haven't I read a long time ago that siege fights and alike will have some sort of lvl adjustor so if you are a lowbie, joining a higher lvl team will boost your skills, not to match theirs, but a significant boost noontheless... so you don't need to lvl or bust?!!?
I'm bumping this because there have been several posts in the last few days that are from people that clearly have little idea what type of game AoC is turning out to be. I even read someone say 'it's just another clone'.. *gasp.*
Seriously folks, if you don't know much about the game but have at least the interest to read this thread (at least the very first post lol,) then you don't really need to waste our time posting spiteful conjecture.
So true, the haters and fanbois of Vanguard/WAR/WoW are OBVIOUS when it comes to AoC...
Just because a game has some elements that ALL RPGs have doesn't make it unoriginal or not innovative...
Humans only? the combat? the spellweaving? Plently original there...
I don't care if Shadowbane had player city sieging, if AoC does it RIGHT, on top of all the original elements, its going to rock asses
Of all that is written, I love only what a person has written with his own blood. -Nietzsche
just wondering, does AoC focus more on PvE or PvP?
Looks like a mix, but once I discovered that the best gear comes from PVE raids my enthusiasm for the game just up and vanished. If you don't mind raiders getting a free ride over you or if you raid then it won't be a problem.
I have no idea how you came to this conclusion, if anything the best gear, and definatly the most useful, will be the socketed crafted items...
I don't remember exactly how long ago it was that I came to the same conclusion as Pantastic but I think it was about three months ago or thereabouts.
One of the developers (Jayde or something like that) did a number of posts on the official boards in which he went to great lengths to rationalize ---why raiders DESERVE better rewards---. He was quite passionate and insistant about it.
Now this wasn't coming from some random fan. It was coming from one of the developers. So you can pretty much see what direction the game is taking. And there is other evidence if you are willing to see it.
It was pretty damn depressing for me I have to say. Because "raid-centric" is a game breaking issue for me but developers are so damn afraid to break the mold of past games they keep making the same stupid mistake. And I'm running out of options for a future game.
I certainly hope this isn't the direction AoC devs are heading, because its precisely why I am even on MMORPG.COM, I am so burned out on WoW, and the raid/grind mechanics that consume the rest of your characters options once you hit the level cap. Thanks EverQrap for introducing this concept to begin with, I wish devs would actually I dunno DEVELOP rather than copycat game mechanics that suck ass. Grinding and raiding become so boring, so tedious, and so much like a crappy job I am paying to do that I will quit MMORPG's altogether if this formula doesn't get outmoded soon. Personally I view the Raid/Grind Mechanic with derision as solely being device to artificially extend subscribtion lengths, and I really just hate it with a burning passion. I honestly would rather have an MMORPG that I don't have to grind myself to death with mindless time-sinks to feel I have gotten my money's worth. I would much prefer to play a game with a reasonable pacing for time/reward, and then have it end pleasantly, than to have it try to make me devote my life in full to it and end up hating it. This is my problem with WoW now, it took me only a few weeks to hit level cap, both 60 then after expansion 70, but then from there you are looking at months and months of raiding the same crap dungeons, grinding pvp, gold grinding or faction grinding to progress, and it just isn't worth it for the time and scheduling it demands. Please please don't go that route AoC, or I will add you to a growing list of worthless games.
just wondering, does AoC focus more on PvE or PvP?
Looks like a mix, but once I discovered that the best gear comes from PVE raids my enthusiasm for the game just up and vanished. If you don't mind raiders getting a free ride over you or if you raid then it won't be a problem.
I have no idea how you came to this conclusion, if anything the best gear, and definatly the most useful, will be the socketed crafted items...
I don't remember exactly how long ago it was that I came to the same conclusion as Pantastic but I think it was about three months ago or thereabouts.
One of the developers (Jayde or something like that) did a number of posts on the official boards in which he went to great lengths to rationalize ---why raiders DESERVE better rewards---. He was quite passionate and insistant about it.
Now this wasn't coming from some random fan. It was coming from one of the developers. So you can pretty much see what direction the game is taking. And there is other evidence if you are willing to see it.
It was pretty damn depressing for me I have to say. Because "raid-centric" is a game breaking issue for me but developers are so damn afraid to break the mold of past games they keep making the same stupid mistake. And I'm running out of options for a future game.
Yeah because all Raids in MMORPG's are done like they are in WOW.... This is what I hate about WOW, ever idiot with a keyboard thinks that every game is just like it.
How about you do some research, and here is a tip try Funcoms other MMORPG and try Raiding in that game.. And then maybe you will notice that not all RAIDS are done like WOW... You mean raids in WoW, which were the exact same formula taken from EQ, 2 of the most well known and influential MMORPG in the genre to date...you're right, we are such silly heads for looking at the industry leaders for the direction of the genre, which is clearly why Vanguard is a prettier duplicate of EQ, and WAR and LOTRO look like the next WoW clones. I promise you don't want me to look at Anarchy Online, it launched so buggy and so weak that me even trying AoC is a massive leap of faith and second chances. Not to mention that hearing about their dev passionately arguing about why raiders deserve the best gear is the same argument that's been made by devs of both WoW and in its day EQ, I can't possibly imagine why someone might be worried here. My 2 cents.
Ok I just did a quick search over at the Conan boards and this is the first dev post I found relating to the subject of raiding. This is from Jayde: ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------ All I would point out here is that there are many MMO players that do enjoy "raiding." Given that well-coordinated raids are one of the harder things to execute in many situations, I think it would be inappropriate not to give raiders a tangible reward for their effort and successes in coordination.
This is not to say that smaller than 40-man groups cannot have situations that are difficult and rewarding, however, one must make sure that the raiding playstyle is rewarded as well.
Most arguments I see against raiding involve taking any substantial reward away from raids--which I personally think is a poor way of going about things. If you think about it logically, if for instance 5-man events gave as good of rewards as 40-man events, who would do 40-man events at all? Wouldn't the group of 40 people just do 4 simultanious 5-man events and get 4 times the reward?
After all, while 5-man situations can require a single person to have more weight than a 40-man raid, if you have an "elite" guild where all the players are at the higer end of the playskill spectrum, executing a 5-man event will be easier than a 40-man event. All other things being equal (player skill, difficulty, reward), raids are still harder to execute simply due to the need for large-scale coordination.
Given how many MMO player do enjoy raids and participation among larger guilds, I personally think removing any incentive and reward for executing them would be a big mistake.
Ok, now if you missed it go back through it and pay particular attention to that one line I bolded. And now explain to me why I, as guy who won't do large PvE raids, should not be concerned about this.
Guys I'm not just trolling and flame baiting. I used to follow the game. But I honestly became convinced that it's just going to be another game in which non-raiders are gimped and have nothing to do. But I haven't followed the game since then so maybe they've changed their minds. I find it hard to believe that they would change their minds about it as strongly as they were arguing that raiders MUST be favored but I suppose anything is possible.
I can dig up more dev posts if you want or you can go over there and do a search yourselves. I did a quick search and this was just the FIRST thing I stumbled onto. There is plenty more of the same over there.
Here's what boggles my mind, the developer arguing for this, is basically saying the only motivation for someone to endure the large raids is the loot...doesn't this send a little warning off in any developer's head that this basically means 40 man raids are not fun or worth the time unless you really desperately have no life and want the loot? I mean I would feel pretty bad if i developed content, asked someone to play it, and their feedback was that it wasn't really worth the pain in the ass you made this out to be unless you really pay me big? That's what I hear whenever I see this. I'm sorry but if I was a developer I would really reconsider putting something in the game that by her own words,"...no one would run" accept for the best loot to be stupid to go forward with. Seems counterpoint to entertainment to deliberately hold a carrot over player's heads to get them to jump through hoops that otherwise they absolutely wouldn't. I mean some people work jobs they are miserable at because it pays well, but it certainly doesn't mean they enjoy it, and in MMORPG developer's cases, player's do this for enjoyment! Make the hoop fun, and everyone will jump. Seems like a deliberate handicap to develop anything in a GAME, which people play for FUN, when you know it isn't FUN. Hat's off to infinitely stupid game design philosophy....kudos. My 2 cents.
How else can you explain a refusal to answer direct straightforward questions that you have an answer for?
Because quite simply they have answered it, and if you have ever followed any game in development you know that all devs are loathe to make concrete claims for several reasons, some of which is trying to keep trade secrets, some of which is not wanting to overcommit and be called a liar later, because no one dev is going to make final calls like whats in and out...
You are holding AoC devs to an unreasonable standard that NO devs of ANY mmo EVER had followed.
I would agree about this, and seemingly that the "no raid" side of the argument is intractable. However all of us on that side of the argument have become incredibly bitter about MMO's. The end game raid tedium formula for MMO's has worn us thin, not to mention the lies from devs. If we seem harsh to them, its because every dev of every MMO we have looked into, gotten into, and been disappointed by all fed us bullshit. No offense, but after a few times, not only are we completely skeptical about the next MMO to arrive (since we have been down the road at least a couple of times, EQ, AO, WoW, CoH, to name a few) but of the lying ass devs as well. In every case we feel the devs made mistakes, didn't listen, and/or straight up lied to us, and what's worse, we paid them to boot. Often lingering after we knew we were fucked over, because we were already invested. So we are leery, and in my opinion, given the lying asshole devs since MMO's began, broken promises, and deep disappointments, we have the right.
Funcom is the new guys with AoC, and I will say new guys because AO was bad, sorry, it barely is worth mentioning. Someone earlier in this thread said to refer to it, and consider their innovation...big ideas aren't innovation unless implemented worth a crap. Brad Mcquaid recently promised the moon and stars with him and his teams vet status from EQ regarding Vanguard. Look at what was delivered at launch...LOL. Fuck me once, shame on you, twice and its cause I am handing you the lube. Lying, overpromising, marketing bullshit machine MMO devs are about as typical these days as lying, greedy, powermongering politicians and lawyers, so no one here, unless truly new to the MMORPG scene, can honestly wonder why there is such massive skepticism.
As another poster pointed out, Jayde has already in the quotes on these forums conceded that the most challenging events deserve the best rewards, and that raids are most often the most challenging events...ergo raids get the best rewards most often, I don't think that is either a massive misinterpretation on my part or just me hearing what I fear, its pretty much straight up what was said in text quoted. However, and this is the point I will show some concession, because I hate with a purple passion the end game raid models of EQ and WoW. IF Funcom can make the raids less soul-suckingly tedious to do, and actually fun, and with only reasonable time commitments aka not a fucking crappy 24/7 job, then I will be fine with raiding. I think that would be universally applicable to most anyone who claims to hate raiding, because the reason they hate raiding is because in the past MMO's raiding was boring, nightmarish to organize, inaccessible and/or insanely demanding of one's time, not to mention after the first one or two forays into the same raid dungeon, you pretty much didn't ever want to return. IF FUNCOM CAN REDEFINE OUR OUTLOOK ON HOW SUCKTASTIC RAIDS IN CURRENT MMORPGS ARE BY MAKING THEM FUN, SLIGHTLY EASIER TO ORGANIZE, LESS DEMANDING ON TIME, AND ANY OTHER REASON WE HATE THESE DAMN THINGS FROM PREVIOUS MMORPGS, ET AL, then I think AoC has a damn fine shot of being the best MMO of all time. However, if it, or any other MMO in development repeats the same mistakes, I think the industry will see a severe decline. Its not a niche you guys are just pissing off with repeating the same mistakes anymore, Blizz and WoW made it mainstream, which means repeating failure will kill you for the future in this genre.
Ok I just did a quick search over at the Conan boards and this is the first dev post I found relating to the subject of raiding. This is from Jayde: ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------ All I would point out here is that there are many MMO players that do enjoy "raiding." Given that well-coordinated raids are one of the harder things to execute in many situations, I think it would be inappropriate not to give raiders a tangible reward for their effort and successes in coordination.
This is not to say that smaller than 40-man groups cannot have situations that are difficult and rewarding, however, one must make sure that the raiding playstyle is rewarded as well.
Most arguments I see against raiding involve taking any substantial reward away from raids--which I personally think is a poor way of going about things. If you think about it logically, if for instance 5-man events gave as good of rewards as 40-man events, who would do 40-man events at all? Wouldn't the group of 40 people just do 4 simultanious 5-man events and get 4 times the reward?
After all, while 5-man situations can require a single person to have more weight than a 40-man raid, if you have an "elite" guild where all the players are at the higer end of the playskill spectrum, executing a 5-man event will be easier than a 40-man event. All other things being equal (player skill, difficulty, reward), raids are still harder to execute simply due to the need for large-scale coordination.
Given how many MMO player do enjoy raids and participation among larger guilds, I personally think removing any incentive and reward for executing them would be a big mistake.
Ok, now if you missed it go back through it and pay particular attention to that one line I bolded. And now explain to me why I, as guy who won't do large PvE raids, should not be concerned about this.
Guys I'm not just trolling and flame baiting. I used to follow the game. But I honestly became convinced that it's just going to be another game in which non-raiders are gimped and have nothing to do. But I haven't followed the game since then so maybe they've changed their minds. I find it hard to believe that they would change their minds about it as strongly as they were arguing that raiders MUST be favored but I suppose anything is possible.
I can dig up more dev posts if you want or you can go over there and do a search yourselves. I did a quick search and this was just the FIRST thing I stumbled onto. There is plenty more of the same over there.
Here's what boggles my mind, the developer arguing for this, is basically saying the only motivation for someone to endure the large raids is the loot...doesn't this send a little warning off in any developer's head that this basically means 40 man raids are not fun or worth the time unless you really desperately have no life and want the loot? I mean I would feel pretty bad if i developed content, asked someone to play it, and their feedback was that it wasn't really worth the pain in the ass you made this out to be unless you really pay me big? That's what I hear whenever I see this. I'm sorry but if I was a developer I would really reconsider putting something in the game that by her own words,"...no one would run" accept for the best loot to be stupid to go forward with. Seems counterpoint to entertainment to deliberately hold a carrot over player's heads to get them to jump through hoops that otherwise they absolutely wouldn't. I mean some people work jobs they are miserable at because it pays well, but it certainly doesn't mean they enjoy it, and in MMORPG developer's cases, player's do this for enjoyment! Make the hoop fun, and everyone will jump. Seems like a deliberate handicap to develop anything in a GAME, which people play for FUN, when you know it isn't FUN. Hat's off to infinitely stupid game design philosophy....kudos. My 2 cents. I agree 100%, have said it multiple times. Its insane. Taht is why I call it a cult. BTW Jayde is a guy. Icalled him she(he?) on the boards and he got upset .
You guys need to get out of the mindset that raiding = WoW 40 man instances with all their inbalancing loot, crappy 'content for 5% of players takes precedence over content for the other 95%' ideals.
We already know that there will be instanced encounters but for the most part when these guys are talking about raids they aren't talking about the above. They are talking about the dynamic RTS content, with enemy NPC building strongholds near PvE towns to fight for resources and eventually attack the towns. The balance between destroying them early when they are week or waiting for the NPC towns to build up and then 'raiding' them. Destroying the buildings, killing the 'boss' leaders.
Beyond that, it is now known that the best gear in the game (that is decidedly not gear oriented) is crafted. Though some of the materials needed to craft some of the highest stuff will be found in the above 'raids' and other instanced encounters.
So please, stop seeing something in AoC and instantly thinking it'll be just like WoW.
Oh and to each their own, but Anarchy Online was a amazing. And even if you didn't like it because of it's cumbersome interface, awkward combat in the early game or what video lag problems, or what ever. There is no denying it's influence on the genre and how much ahead of it's time it really was. Not to mention the games music and art direction are second to none. Watching videos or looking at screenshots, or listening to clips of AoC's music show this very clearly.
There are several technologies in modern MMOG's use were invented by Funcom. Some things so integrated into them that MMOG's without them are considered incomplete. Such as Instancing, hyperlinked chatting (IE dropping an item into chat to show it's stats,) true 360' flight, to name but a few.
For this reason I am extremely confident in Funcom and am sure they will release a fantastic MMOG.
Your argument can be summed up to the folllowing. This won't be as bad because their raiding will actually be fun. Therefore it is ok that those who choose not to participate in it will be punished.
I do not accept that. There WILL be people who choose not to raid. They should not be punished. I won't stand by and be a tool for this kind of crap anymore.
People should be allowed to play the game how they choose and not get punsihed for not playing it the exact right way.
We know exclusive trade componenets will drop in raids. We know raids will have the best PvE drops. Whether I enjoy AoC raids or not is immaterial. I will not be a party to this ridiculous stratfication and strong arm gameplay tactics.
Eff them and eff anyone who tries to cajole me into this crap. Eff them for trying to cajole people into play the right way. Eff them exalting one style of gameplay above another. We aren't children, let people play like they want and still be on an equal footing. Just stop this crap.
Before you waste another breath on arguing with Pantastic and this same old discussion that he brings up with every mmo take a look at a post a friend of mine made in regard to Pantastics posts in one of our discussions.
Callmetoby says "For some reason I thought I felt a bit of deja-vu from Pantastic's posts on this subject, but I wasn't sure exactly why. So I decided to take a look...and here's why...
I'm sure there's bound to be more but I wasn't about to dig through 1000+ posts.
So there's all these threads (for three different game forums I might add) where he argues the same point over and over again, each time based on speculation due to a grudge against raiding. Fair enough, I guess. But then he points out that, to his knowledge, WAR won't require raiding. I'm confused...and I think someone needs to make up their mind.
To me it just sounds like arguing for argument's sake.
Comments
Umm... which quotes exactly? I've recall the quote where Jayde directly says that he considers raiding to require more effort than not raiding, and the other one where one of the devs specifically states that raiding will not provide rewards 50 times better than nonraid rewards, and another where the devs specifically stated that the advantage from raid gear over nonraid gear would not be overwhelming. I have not, however, seen a quote from you in which the developers state that non raid content will be rewarded just as well as raid content, in fact the quotes you've provided consistently avoid saying that.
Then again, you are the one who seized on a statement in a language that no one in the discussion could read as proof positive of your position.
Bear in mind that I don't disagree that completing raid content requires more effort than nonraid content; organizing a large group of people to show up at once and to put up with boring repitition does require effort. I simply don't find the kind of effort involved to be enjoyable at all, and so have no desire to play a game which makes you choose between doing something unenjoyable or being second rate. If someone decided to make a taxing game in which you had to correctly fill out tax forms every time you made money, I would have no interest in it either.
Played Wow, D and L, AOC, GW, Eve, Rift and many more insignificant games.
Played Wow, D and L, AOC, GW, Eve, Rift and many more insignificant games.
I agree Fion. I can't imagine a company like Sony or EA doing a game like this. Everything would be boiled down to the lowest common denominator. Bold descisions would be killed by committee and watered down to accomodate expiedience. I do think FunCom will make things work because the game deserves certain features and needs to remain true to it's original vision. I look at other big games on the Horizon...specificaly Vanguard and though it seems a vast game...aside from the diplomatic and craftign systems I just veiw it as WOW with better graphics and flying mounts. Flying mounts is cool yes, but the feature does not make a game. Conan, for me... is the next logical step. In the meantime I will be playing Minions Of Mirth.
being in an adult universe, with high violence and sex, and so on
I'm a wow player, playing without any form of joy for months now, i'm just waiting for something that best suits my expectations
i hpoe i'll manage to get on the beta ^^
the sooner i can replace wow the better
Thank you Pantastic!
I have always assumed that fanbois aren't the most inteligent bunch, but after raiding trough this thread I am simply amazed how dumb they actualy can be.
Sturm and Aelfin, you have been owned by a superior intelect, it's like you have (to continue oh so fond WoW analogy) green brain and Pan has epix brain, so in a sense, you have been ganked repeatedly.
Pantastic, prooving someone wrong doesen't proove you right!
After reading this "discussion" I kinda hope that raiding gear will be superior to PVP gear (as long as it's not overwhelming, whatever that actualy means), why? Cuz then we would have PVP guilds and PVE guilds, and PVP matches would be PVP gear vs the best gear, and there ain't nothing I like more then beating someone who has better gear then me. That's a true victory, at least for me, and not having the best gear. Why would anyone even want the best gear, it's like admiting that you suck in PVP, and whatever people say, this will be a PVP game.
PVE gets you hooked, but only thing that can truly keep you playing is PVP, so I'm not worried that we will have to face the same issues like in some other games...
edit>> Oh, a question. Does anyone know much about PVP? I realy like the new arena system in WoW and the idea of 2-5 teams fighting each other in close quarters, each fight beeing as close to fair as it gets is realy appealing to me. Don't get me wrong I like the siege and all that idea but sometimes it's nice to have a personal victory, sometimes there is no room for us in me
Oh, and haven't I read a long time ago that siege fights and alike will have some sort of lvl adjustor so if you are a lowbie, joining a higher lvl team will boost your skills, not to match theirs, but a significant boost noontheless... so you don't need to lvl or bust?!!?
So true, the haters and fanbois of Vanguard/WAR/WoW are OBVIOUS when it comes to AoC...
Just because a game has some elements that ALL RPGs have doesn't make it unoriginal or not innovative...
Humans only? the combat? the spellweaving? Plently original there...
I don't care if Shadowbane had player city sieging, if AoC does it RIGHT, on top of all the original elements, its going to rock asses
Of all that is written, I love only what a person has written with his own blood. -Nietzsche
- How can you talk if you haven't got a brain?
- I don't know, but some people without brains do an awful lot of talking, don't they?
Looks like a mix, but once I discovered that the best gear comes from PVE raids my enthusiasm for the game just up and vanished. If you don't mind raiders getting a free ride over you or if you raid then it won't be a problem.
I have no idea how you came to this conclusion, if anything the best gear, and definatly the most useful, will be the socketed crafted items...
I don't remember exactly how long ago it was that I came to the same conclusion as Pantastic but I think it was about three months ago or thereabouts.
One of the developers (Jayde or something like that) did a number of posts on the official boards in which he went to great lengths to rationalize ---why raiders DESERVE better rewards---. He was quite passionate and insistant about it.
Now this wasn't coming from some random fan. It was coming from one of the developers. So you can pretty much see what direction the game is taking. And there is other evidence if you are willing to see it.
It was pretty damn depressing for me I have to say. Because "raid-centric" is a game breaking issue for me but developers are so damn afraid to break the mold of past games they keep making the same stupid mistake. And I'm running out of options for a future game.
Yeah because all Raids in MMORPG's are done like they are in WOW.... This is what I hate about WOW, ever idiot with a keyboard thinks that every game is just like it.
How about you do some research, and here is a tip try Funcoms other MMORPG and try Raiding in that game.. And then maybe you will notice that not all RAIDS are done like WOW... You mean raids in WoW, which were the exact same formula taken from EQ, 2 of the most well known and influential MMORPG in the genre to date...you're right, we are such silly heads for looking at the industry leaders for the direction of the genre, which is clearly why Vanguard is a prettier duplicate of EQ, and WAR and LOTRO look like the next WoW clones. I promise you don't want me to look at Anarchy Online, it launched so buggy and so weak that me even trying AoC is a massive leap of faith and second chances. Not to mention that hearing about their dev passionately arguing about why raiders deserve the best gear is the same argument that's been made by devs of both WoW and in its day EQ, I can't possibly imagine why someone might be worried here. My 2 cents.
You are holding AoC devs to an unreasonable standard that NO devs of ANY mmo EVER had followed.
I would agree about this, and seemingly that the "no raid" side of the argument is intractable. However all of us on that side of the argument have become incredibly bitter about MMO's. The end game raid tedium formula for MMO's has worn us thin, not to mention the lies from devs. If we seem harsh to them, its because every dev of every MMO we have looked into, gotten into, and been disappointed by all fed us bullshit. No offense, but after a few times, not only are we completely skeptical about the next MMO to arrive (since we have been down the road at least a couple of times, EQ, AO, WoW, CoH, to name a few) but of the lying ass devs as well. In every case we feel the devs made mistakes, didn't listen, and/or straight up lied to us, and what's worse, we paid them to boot. Often lingering after we knew we were fucked over, because we were already invested. So we are leery, and in my opinion, given the lying asshole devs since MMO's began, broken promises, and deep disappointments, we have the right.Funcom is the new guys with AoC, and I will say new guys because AO was bad, sorry, it barely is worth mentioning. Someone earlier in this thread said to refer to it, and consider their innovation...big ideas aren't innovation unless implemented worth a crap. Brad Mcquaid recently promised the moon and stars with him and his teams vet status from EQ regarding Vanguard. Look at what was delivered at launch...LOL. Fuck me once, shame on you, twice and its cause I am handing you the lube. Lying, overpromising, marketing bullshit machine MMO devs are about as typical these days as lying, greedy, powermongering politicians and lawyers, so no one here, unless truly new to the MMORPG scene, can honestly wonder why there is such massive skepticism.
As another poster pointed out, Jayde has already in the quotes on these forums conceded that the most challenging events deserve the best rewards, and that raids are most often the most challenging events...ergo raids get the best rewards most often, I don't think that is either a massive misinterpretation on my part or just me hearing what I fear, its pretty much straight up what was said in text quoted. However, and this is the point I will show some concession, because I hate with a purple passion the end game raid models of EQ and WoW. IF Funcom can make the raids less soul-suckingly tedious to do, and actually fun, and with only reasonable time commitments aka not a fucking crappy 24/7 job, then I will be fine with raiding. I think that would be universally applicable to most anyone who claims to hate raiding, because the reason they hate raiding is because in the past MMO's raiding was boring, nightmarish to organize, inaccessible and/or insanely demanding of one's time, not to mention after the first one or two forays into the same raid dungeon, you pretty much didn't ever want to return. IF FUNCOM CAN REDEFINE OUR OUTLOOK ON HOW SUCKTASTIC RAIDS IN CURRENT MMORPGS ARE BY MAKING THEM FUN, SLIGHTLY EASIER TO ORGANIZE, LESS DEMANDING ON TIME, AND ANY OTHER REASON WE HATE THESE DAMN THINGS FROM PREVIOUS MMORPGS, ET AL, then I think AoC has a damn fine shot of being the best MMO of all time. However, if it, or any other MMO in development repeats the same mistakes, I think the industry will see a severe decline. Its not a niche you guys are just pissing off with repeating the same mistakes anymore, Blizz and WoW made it mainstream, which means repeating failure will kill you for the future in this genre.
My 2 cents.
I do not accept that. There WILL be people who choose not to raid. They should not be punished. I won't stand by and be a tool for this kind of crap anymore.
People should be allowed to play the game how they choose and not get punsihed for not playing it the exact right way.
We know exclusive trade componenets will drop in raids. We know raids will have the best PvE drops. Whether I enjoy AoC raids or not is immaterial. I will not be a party to this ridiculous stratfication and strong arm gameplay tactics.
Eff them and eff anyone who tries to cajole me into this crap. Eff them for trying to cajole people into play the right way. Eff them exalting one style of gameplay above another. We aren't children, let people play like they want and still be on an equal footing. Just stop this crap.
Before you waste another breath on arguing with Pantastic and this same old discussion that he brings up with every mmo take a look at a post a friend of mine made in regard to Pantastics posts in one of our discussions.
Callmetoby says "For some reason I thought I felt a bit of deja-vu from Pantastic's posts on this subject, but I wasn't sure exactly why. So I decided to take a look...and here's why...
There's http://www.mmorpg.com/discussion2.cfm/post/1103473#1103473
and http://www.mmorpg.com/discussion2.cfm/thread/96655/page/15
and http://www.mmorpg.com/discussion2.cfm/thread/99723/page/2
and http://www.mmorpg.com/discussion2.cfm/thread/88732/page/21
and http://www.mmorpg.com/discussion2.cfm/post/1058243#1058243
and http://www.mmorpg.com/discussion2.cfm/post/1041798#1041798...which was eventually locked due to a certain someone being incredibly unreasonable...
and then there's http://www.mmorpg.com/discussion2.cfm/post/1140895#1140895 where he points out that one of the differences in WAR and AoC is that "WAR apparently won't require any raiding at all" (his exact words).
I'm sure there's bound to be more but I wasn't about to dig through 1000+ posts.
So there's all these threads (for three different game forums I might add) where he argues the same point over and over again, each time based on speculation due to a grudge against raiding. Fair enough, I guess. But then he points out that, to his knowledge, WAR won't require raiding. I'm confused...and I think someone needs to make up their mind.
To me it just sounds like arguing for argument's sake.