See here is my view (I am an anarchist, basically. I believe in the eventual elimination of the nation-state power structure and strict limitations on organized power):
There is the Law and there are Ethics, the are not the same and in many places conflict. Here are examples:
1- Legal But Not Ethical: It is legal to force customers into signing EULAs that forfeit their rights to demand a refund when services change into something not originally purchased, but it is an unethical practice because you are forcing your customers to give up their right to demand that service remains consistent.
2) Ethical But Not Legal: It is ethically correct to steal food to feed your children, but it is not legal.
In this case Kug is following example 2, he, if the accusations are true, hacked BoD's forums and found out they were getting developer support. Ethically, Kug is in the good, but legally he is not. Now my personal opinion, if you are not a prosecutor or a judge (People who make a living off of the Injustice system), then why should you be outraged if someone does something ethically correct, but morally wrong?
Which would you rather have an ethical society or a society filled with lawyers trying to bend the law to their advantage?
--When you resubscribe to SWG, an 18 yearold Stripper finds Jesus, gives up stripping, and moves with a rolex reverend to Hawaii. --In MMORPG's l007 is the opiate of the masses. --The absence of evidence is not the evidence of absence! --CCP could cut off an Eve player's fun bits, and that player would say that it was good CCP did that.
See here is my view (I am an anarchist, basically. I believe in the eventual elimination of the nation-state power structure and strict limitations on organized power):
There is the Law and there are Ethics, the are not the same and in many places conflict. Here are examples:
1- Legal But Not Ethical: It is legal to force customers into signing EULAs that forfeit their rights to demand a refund when services change into something not originally purchased, but it is an unethical practice because you are forcing your customers to give up their right to demand that service remains consistent.
2) Ethical But Not Legal: It is ethically correct to steal food to feed your children, but it is not legal.
In this case Kug is following example 2, he, if the accusations are true, hacked BoD's forums and found out they were getting developer support. Ethically, Kug is in the good, but legally he is not. Now my personal opinion, if you are not a prosecutor or a judge (People who make a living off of the Injustice system), then why should you be outraged if someone does something ethically correct, but morally wrong?
Which would you rather have an ethical society or a society filled with lawyers trying to bend the law to their advantage?
I dont disagree the first revelation was true its the second that caused me to dislike him more.
Originally posted by Ashton692 Sorry mate - thread not over inspite of your unusual need to want it squelched. I don't automatically dismiss evidence when I don't like the person, and I don't automatically dismiss people because they've screwed up. You do, that's cool, I respect your opinion. Maybe instead of telling other people how to feel about something you could instead tell us why you feel that any evidence presented by an unsavory character is necessarilly incorrect? Or how all people that break the law are forever after incapable of contributing to a discussion? Because these are the 2 premises you are supporting. I think they are kind of ridiculous, but I'm willing to listen (otherwise I wouldn't bother reading a message board). Are you? Cheers. Edit: just as an aside, the alliance leaders may "hate" him - but they still don't dismiss him. Read his boards and you will see the leaders of said alliances posting there.
Well I can tell you why I put a very low level of validity to his statements by providing a possible sequence of events. This is pure speculation and in no way shape or form fact, but it is something that I personnally weighed.
1-Kug hacked the forum gaining Admin or superadmin rights
2-Creates what ever post he wants with whatever he wants in it, Maybe this time a 6 page conversation from BoB directors and oveur on how EVE will be modified to fit BoB tactics better.
3- Screenshots it, fraps it, take you pick, and posts it on his site.
4- Deletes the posts from the board
Now after doing this if BoB or Oveur denies it and show the forums that do not have said message posted on it. He then can state that they just deleted it to cover up the massive CCP/BoB and that only he will do the honorable thing and expose such horrible truths.
Now again that is something that may or may not have happened. Add that their is very few evidence to collaborate him, it diffcult to guarntee that anything he says he false. if he gets lucky and gets 1 or 2 things right then he starts to garner some truth for somepeople, sadly if there where 20+ incorrect accusations they are sometimes ignored.
Well thats some of my thought on why I chose to wait and listen to CCP over Kug. As for the reasons he was banned well there is nothing to say that he didn't edit the messages to his liking also? He ann CCP where in a race for the first ounce of credability and only he knew when the race started. As such no matter what CCP says he can just say that they are trying to cover up the truths that he is revealing, be honest its a not so uncommon political practice in the U.S.. Make the other guy look bad first so people won't trust his replies.
He may be a criminal, but he did EVE a favour, what most have suspected for a long time of cheating in BOB has now come to light, now the uproar caused by this is, everyone are hunting BOB and it's pets, this is well deserved justice in my eyes
CCP screwed themselves up by not listening to the communtiy and having T20 removed from his employment all together, this now is a message to other Dev/GM/ISD that cheating is possible and they wont get the sack for it.
I just wonder now which alliance is going to lose a Dev/GM/ISD next month, because Kug has promised to reveal one each month, this i blame on Kieron for not listening to the community.
So yeah kug is a criminal, it was good that he got his 5 accounts banned, but a few more should have been banned too.. SirMolle, DBPreacher, they also broke the EULA and got off scot free
the so-called hacker exposed cheating in a game where the ingame currency, isks, have a realworld monetary value (via GTCs if nothing else). so by cheating, they're actually taking something that has a realworld value.
guess stealing money isn't criminal, but allegedly hacking into people, who are cheating in the game, thereby (in)directly stealing money, is?
right-o."
This whole situation lies in a grey area. You say that t20 stole real money, but how much of our actions in EvE would thus be criminal? After all, when you take ore from a miner, you are stealing his ISKs and therefore real money from him using your argument. And how about when you use the thief system to trick someone into PvP combat in high sec and blow up their ship? Not only did you steal their ISKs by taking their loot/ore, but you blew up their property using questionable game mechanics. How about when someone gets scammed for millions of ISK? Does that mean the scammer is a white collar criminal and should spend time in jail in real life? Players use holes in the contract system to cheat other players out of ISKs all of the time. Are they criminals?
If ISK=real money then how much of EvE is actually legal?
It's not at all ok what t20 did. It's disgusting, but I still don't see him as a criminal. I would have been happiest if he had lost his job. I am not happy that he is still around and got just a slap on the wrist. I have a problem though with people painting all of CCP as corrupt. We don't know that for sure, and certainly nothing of what I've read on Kug's site makes me think that there is undeniable proof that CCP is corrupt through and through.
In fact to me, it seems like Kug's intentions are not for the better good of everyone now. At first yes, because he exposed a cheater in one of the top alliances in the game that had the potential of having a massive effect (though those effects are being debated by the playerbase). But now he is on an ego trip and trying to wreck the game as a vendetta against CCP. I don't know for certain if he is breaking the law, hacking as much as people say he is. He himself admitted to a few things, which makes me think that at least some of it is true. However, even if he is not breaking the law by hacking, he could become a criminal because he is essentially blackmailing a business. T20's actions will not see him put in jail, but Kug's will if he keeps this up.
Again, vote with your wallet. If t20's effects are so horrific in the game in your eyes, then you can easily solve it by not paying CCP. However, if Kug is indeed hacking ppls' accounts without them knowing, you can't solve that very easily and yes, it could have devastating consequences on the game depending on what he actually does.
Back in EvE. Started with BatMUD. Main MMOs have been EvE and DAoC.
Again you miss the point the current Argument is not about thte T20 scandal most of us agree more should ahve been done - shame icelandic employment laws protect T20 - The current thing everyone is fuming over is the Enslaver GM sunshine alligations.
I dislike the title of this thread for one reason: OP is insenuating that CCP are criminals and I think that is a ridiculous thing to say. Even if CCP covered up t20's misdemeanors, and possibly others (I'll believe it when I see it), they are not criminals. Being dishonest, yes. Criminal no.
The best way to proceed with Kug is to be skeptical of anything he says and only recognize that there may be a possible grain of truth in it. He has an agenda, and has been clear about what that agenda is. As such, it would be impossible to get an unbiased view of the truth from anything he says. I would count the fact that he has an obvious agenda as much more important than the fact that he is a convicted criminal.
Looking at CCP, it is a similar situation: you have to take anything they say with skepticism but as having a possible grain of truth.
Warning, incoming opinion, don't read if you can't handle it
Overall, I'd have to say I would err on the side of caution and go with giving the benefit of the doubt to CCP. Why? Because I have no way of proving that things that Kug says is true, and his agenda is so extreme that I can't possibly feel confident in him. The other reason is that I love EvE and pay CCP to enjoy my leisure time in the game, whereas I don't pay Kug to wreck indirectly my fun by making tons of allegations against CCP devs by whatever means possible (whether for a good or bad cause). I am thankful to Kug in the sense that he did expose t20, though his actions and behaviour overall are reprehensible. He managed to make EvE just a little bit fairer of a game to play, but that's enough for me. I don't want to see any more character assassinations (no pun intended).
If you can't stand the thought of cover-ups by CCP, vote with your wallet. If you can't stand the thought of a hacker calling the shots, support CCP's stance. My 2 ISKs.
Yeah - I will admit I am a bit sensational with my post titles. Sensational post titles generate interest > interest generates reading > and reading generates a good discussion (sometimes) like the one in this thread. I haven't in any way in the thread suggested that CCP is criminal. Just consider the title as the teaser, not the content.
Incoming opinion:
Right now, at this very moment, I am leaning more towards trusting Kug. Not by a lot. But this is why, in no particular order, and brought up by people throughout the thread.
1) CCP has more to lose, Kug has very little to lose.
2) Kug is being misrepresented as blanketing us with accusations towards CCP, when in actuallity he has made very very few allegations, they have been targetted.
3) Kug hasn't really been making accusations so much as providing people with the first hand information to deduce the accusation themself. Granted, because this information filters through Kug we needto be critical of it.
4) CCP have lied to us historically to protect their interests (who wouldn't?)
5) CCP as a corporation may heave the best of intentions, but they have no way to control the individuals that they employ. The only way to control people in that type of environment is through a culture of intolerance toward indiscretion in the game, and because of CCPs track record in both breaches and their handling of those breaches (primarily the latter) I don't trust the culture that they have fostered.
All that is not to say that I don't point blind trust Kug - here are the reasons against the above:
He posted detailed real life information which included ccp employees
He hacked into other players accounts
Sirmolle posted very limited amount of RL information he said something like 'Does is snow in indonessia anthony'
From what i heard Kug posted detailed addresses. Now thats all we know, Kug maybe have done even more breaches, point is he got banned for many reasons and all were good reason, ccp are protected themselves and you.
Yeah - I will admit I am a bit sensational with my post titles. Sensational post titles generate interest > interest generates reading > and reading generates a good discussion (sometimes) like the one in this thread. I haven't in any way in the thread suggested that CCP is criminal. Just consider the title as the teaser, not the content. Incoming opinion: Right now, at this very moment, I am leaning more towards trusting Kug. Not by a lot. But this is why, in no particular order, and brought up by people throughout the thread. 1) CCP has more to lose, Kug has very little to lose. Exactly so Kug can exaduate & lie as much as he wants as he has less to lose 2) Kug is being misrepresented as blanketing us with accusations towards CCP, when in actuallity he has made very very few allegations, they have been targetted. This shows he is being very canny and smart 3) Kug hasn't really been making accusations so much as providing people with the first hand information to deduce the accusation themself. Granted, because this information filters through Kug we needto be critical of it. Yea dont forget for a hacker like Kug falsyfying chatlogs would be very easy. 4) CCP have lied to us historically to protect their interests (who wouldn't?) Really? when have they lied historically pre T20 5) CCP as a corporation may heave the best of intentions, but they have no way to control the individuals that they employ. The only way to control people in that type of environment is through a culture of intolerance toward indiscretion in the game, and because of CCPs track record in both breaches and their handling of those breaches (primarily the latter) I don't trust the culture that they have fostered. All that is not to say that I don't point blind trust Kug - here are the reasons against the above: 1) Kug has a chip on his shoulders. 2) I don't trust Kug's moral compass. Cheers.
I will say Ashton that I disagree with your last post. It is pretty much standard practice to keep employee issues internal, this even includes when it may directly or indirectly effect customers. You think UPS and FedEx tell people that some of thier employees may have been fired for stealing packages(alot more common of a occurance then you may think, at least 2 people got fired for doing it during the 6 months I worked at one of the hubs). You deal with the stuff internally unless its something so large that when it goes to trial it will hit the media anyway(Enron for example). So for the most part its not surprising that they keep it in house. While I would not have minded T20 getting fired what 8 months ago now, I would be absolutly appaled to have him fired now 8 months after what ever his orginal punishment was. If that happened in a corporation I was working for I would quickly start looking for another job as I would not want to work in a enviroment where I can be punished multiple times for the same infraction. i would go as far to say that I would strnogly consider quiting if T20 got fired as I cannot support a company that works like that.
Now i happen to agree with slater on the fact that Kug having nothing to lose makes him even more questionable. The funny part is though my guess is that he's more happy now then I would say he ever would have been. A practical nobody that is suddenly getting all the spotlight, i'm sure he's just soaking up the attention. The only way to keep that attention is to keep posting his allegations, and since he got thier first he appears to be truthful, able to accuse CCP of covering up anything he says is right. He's in the perfect position, nothing to lose, a sliver of credability, and enough momentum in public opinion to continue to give weight to anything he says. I would say he's in a position that would be a politican's wet dream.
Now I happen to disagree with #3 mostly because if I give you evidence of your neighbor being a child molester then I'm making an accusation. Just because I don't say it does not mean that I didn't imply the accusations. though he may have not accused directly he did present evidence with the sole purpose for people to arrive at the accusations that he wished to level. Which again is a smart move on the public front as it shows him in a very passive light (people don't like it when you directly acttack someone else for the most part).
If I had to label Kug it would be as a cunning, manipulative person who knows just how to portray events in the best light for himself.
As for the Sirmolle, DBpreacher issue, they should have recieved a temporary ban for about a month. The didn't break the EULA but they damn well scratched it. I don't think its should be bannable to say that I'm brad from Pennsylvannia. but if you start listing First and last names with addresses then yeah ban your ass for good(Sirmolle at least did not list any heavy details). While I have not tried it you probably could figure out more information on Kug just by looking up the domain registration information for his website which is publicly available.
Yeah - I will admit I am a bit sensational with my post titles. Sensational post titles generate interest > interest generates reading > and reading generates a good discussion (sometimes) like the one in this thread. I haven't in any way in the thread suggested that CCP is criminal. Just consider the title as the teaser, not the content. Incoming opinion: Right now, at this very moment, I am leaning more towards trusting Kug. Not by a lot. But this is why, in no particular order, and brought up by people throughout the thread. 1) CCP has more to lose, Kug has very little to lose. Exactly so Kug can exaduate & lie as much as he wants as he has less to lose 2) Kug is being misrepresented as blanketing us with accusations towards CCP, when in actuallity he has made very very few allegations, they have been targetted. This shows he is being very canny and smart 3) Kug hasn't really been making accusations so much as providing people with the first hand information to deduce the accusation themself. Granted, because this information filters through Kug we needto be critical of it. Yea dont forget for a hacker like Kug falsyfying chatlogs would be very easy. 4) CCP have lied to us historically to protect their interests (who wouldn't?) Really? when have they lied historically pre T20 5) CCP as a corporation may heave the best of intentions, but they have no way to control the individuals that they employ. The only way to control people in that type of environment is through a culture of intolerance toward indiscretion in the game, and because of CCPs track record in both breaches and their handling of those breaches (primarily the latter) I don't trust the culture that they have fostered. All that is not to say that I don't point blind trust Kug - here are the reasons against the above: 1) Kug has a chip on his shoulders. 2) I don't trust Kug's moral compass. Cheers.
Heya Lordslater - let me answer some of your good points. Thanks for them:
1) Your point "Kug has nothing to lose so he can lie." You are infurring that CCP is held to a higher standard of truth because by lying they have more to lose. Although this is true CCP has effectively circumvented this by just remaining silent. Look through the announcement ofthe IA director thread and you will see lists of impassioned questions by loyal customers who feel cheated/hurt/betrayed and you will say they remain unanswered. I'm not saying you don't have a point at all - I recognize that at the end of the day Kug can say whatever he wants without consequence and at any time just walk away. And for certain that is a good reason to be skeptical of anything he writes, which any responsible reader should be.
2) I haven't heard anyone say anything other then him being very intelligent. I was simply tring to dismiss the point I have read repeadtedly where people are representing him as a guy that is just firing off random and many accusations. That is not the case.
3) Yes, Kug could falsify anything. I don't think anyone, including the authors of the "captured" posts have ever claimed they were false though - I think most of the issue have been around the method in which they were obtained. If the authors of these posts that Kug has started coming forward and saying "I never wrote that" then I think this would be a valid point.
4) I'm speaking about when they said there was no issue with the T20 thing and then admitted after being forced to that there was. Unfortunately since it took a hacker to bring them forward to the truth during this past instance, and previous to that no hacker has forced CCP into accountability, and CCP are the sole people with access to the information with which to hold themselves accountable, I can't answer that question. I am suspect of their previous claims of innocence because of their lying around this one. They basically said "no, it never happened," but when they realized that the evidence was overwhelming and couldn't be stopped came forward and admitted it. Point is: CCP has lied to us. They have the moral capability to lie to us. They have proven this.
Cheers mate - thanks for the good discussion. Don't read into my points that I am a staunch defender of Kug - I am just saying that we can't dismiss his information just because we don't like the messenger or his methods. We need to take it and evaluate it on its own.
Yeah - I will admit I am a bit sensational with my post titles. Sensational post titles generate interest > interest generates reading > and reading generates a good discussion (sometimes) like the one in this thread. I haven't in any way in the thread suggested that CCP is criminal. Just consider the title as the teaser, not the content. Incoming opinion: Right now, at this very moment, I am leaning more towards trusting Kug. Not by a lot. But this is why, in no particular order, and brought up by people throughout the thread. 1) CCP has more to lose, Kug has very little to lose. Exactly so Kug can exaduate & lie as much as he wants as he has less to lose 2) Kug is being misrepresented as blanketing us with accusations towards CCP, when in actuallity he has made very very few allegations, they have been targetted. This shows he is being very canny and smart 3) Kug hasn't really been making accusations so much as providing people with the first hand information to deduce the accusation themself. Granted, because this information filters through Kug we needto be critical of it. Yea dont forget for a hacker like Kug falsyfying chatlogs would be very easy. 4) CCP have lied to us historically to protect their interests (who wouldn't?) Really? when have they lied historically pre T20 5) CCP as a corporation may heave the best of intentions, but they have no way to control the individuals that they employ. The only way to control people in that type of environment is through a culture of intolerance toward indiscretion in the game, and because of CCPs track record in both breaches and their handling of those breaches (primarily the latter) I don't trust the culture that they have fostered. All that is not to say that I don't point blind trust Kug - here are the reasons against the above: 1) Kug has a chip on his shoulders. 2) I don't trust Kug's moral compass. Cheers.
Heya Lordslater - let me answer some of your good points. Thanks for them:
1) Your point "Kug has nothing to lose so he can lie." You are infurring that CCP is held to a higher standard of truth because by lying they have more to lose. Although this is true CCP has effectively circumvented this by just remaining silent. Look through the announcement ofthe IA director thread and you will see lists of impassioned questions by loyal customers who feel cheated/hurt/betrayed and you will say they remain unanswered. I'm not saying you don't have a point at all - I recognize that at the end of the day Kug can say whatever he wants without consequence and at any time just walk away. And for certain that is a good reason to be skeptical of anything he writes, which any responsible reader should be.
2) I haven't heard anyone say anything other then him being very intelligent. I was simply tring to dismiss the point I have read repeadtedly where people are representing him as a guy that is just firing off random and many accusations. That is not the case.
3) Yes, Kug could falsify anything. I don't think anyone, including the authors of the "captured" posts have ever claimed they were false though - I think most of the issue have been around the method in which they were obtained. If the authors of these posts that Kug has started coming forward and saying "I never wrote that" then I think this would be a valid point.
4) I'm speaking about when they said there was no issue with the T20 thing and then admitted after being forced to that there was. Unfortunately since it took a hacker to bring them forward to the truth during this past instance, and previous to that no hacker has forced CCP into accountability, and CCP are the sole people with access to the information with which to hold themselves accountable, I can't answer that question. I am suspect of their previous claims of innocence because of their lying around this one. They basically said "no, it never happened," but when they realized that the evidence was overwhelming and couldn't be stopped came forward and admitted it. Point is: CCP has lied to us. They have the moral capability to lie to us. They have proven this.
Cheers mate - thanks for the good discussion. Don't read into my points that I am a staunch defender of Kug - I am just saying that we can't dismiss his information just because we don't like the messenger or his methods. We need to take it and evaluate it on its own.
I pretty much agree with what you put here but i would like to point out one aspect of the origonall T20 scandall.....2 actually that you might find interesting.
First of all when it was origonally discovered 6 months before the revelations via hacking however at that time ccp was operating on a skeliton staff basis as most of the senior staff was away for Fanshows holidays and sick leave. The origonall peiopel who investigated things did it more or less by phone and online so they couldnt find everything then because of this they put the origonall punishment to T20, back then tho they hadnt found out the full truth mainly because not everyone was there and the origonal inverigating staff was underpowered.
What wasant discovered in the origonal enquiery was the 10 tech 2 BPO's and some of the secret forum networks T20 and some BoB members were using [tho the network in itself is not illegal in any way].
6 Months later the full truth cvame out including the presence of a set of bluprints that should not ahve been where they were, Sadly because T20 lives in iceland he is protected from further punishment from waht was seen as the same misdenemour by iclandic employment laws so CCP couldnt punish him further [example fire him] However he did make a public apology [tho i found it a bit lacking in some ways] and CCP gaming charecters were deleted.
As to why sir mole was not deleted or punished for reveiling real world details of a certain hacker well all he reveiled was his anme and which country he live in which was thiland a palce where its data protection laws are slack enough that he cant be arrested for his crimes [its why he moved from america].
As for the billions of isk and ships and modules BoB got from those blueprints its sadly impossable to remove it all as most of it was brought from legit palyers with legit isk [see some of the bluprints were of rare ships much sought after].
See here is my view (I am an anarchist, basically. I believe in the eventual elimination of the nation-state power structure and strict limitations on organized power):
There is the Law and there are Ethics, the are not the same and in many places conflict. Here are examples:
1- Legal But Not Ethical: It is legal to force customers into signing EULAs that forfeit their rights to demand a refund when services change into something not originally purchased, but it is an unethical practice because you are forcing your customers to give up their right to demand that service remains consistent.
2) Ethical But Not Legal: It is ethically correct to steal food to feed your children, but it is not legal.
In this case Kug is following example 2, he, if the accusations are true, hacked BoD's forums and found out they were getting developer support. Ethically, Kug is in the good, but legally he is not. Now my personal opinion, if you are not a prosecutor or a judge (People who make a living off of the Injustice system), then why should you be outraged if someone does something ethically correct, but morally wrong?
Which would you rather have an ethical society or a society filled with lawyers trying to bend the law to their advantage?
I dont disagree the first revelation was true its the second that caused me to dislike him more.
I can agree the second one is iffy.
--Though it does make me question CCP's hiring practices with regard to GMs. Too much room for conflict of interest with hiring ex-alliance leaders.
--When you resubscribe to SWG, an 18 yearold Stripper finds Jesus, gives up stripping, and moves with a rolex reverend to Hawaii. --In MMORPG's l007 is the opiate of the masses. --The absence of evidence is not the evidence of absence! --CCP could cut off an Eve player's fun bits, and that player would say that it was good CCP did that.
--Though it does make me question CCP's hiring practices with regard to GMs. Too much room for conflict of interest with hiring ex-alliance leaders.
Well considering the guy made a point of deleting his charecter when he got the job it seems to ahve worked here.
Even tough, you were part of something you helped build and then see it being threatened (Not saying this is the case with the current GM), I know I would feel a conflict personally.
On the other hand, it is good to have people who know the alliance mechanics backward and forward...
--I'm in the Loss Prevention/Asset Protection industry, so I am a little more "overly cautious" then others are. (You'd think I'd hate hackers insanely, wouldn't ya?)
--When you resubscribe to SWG, an 18 yearold Stripper finds Jesus, gives up stripping, and moves with a rolex reverend to Hawaii. --In MMORPG's l007 is the opiate of the masses. --The absence of evidence is not the evidence of absence! --CCP could cut off an Eve player's fun bits, and that player would say that it was good CCP did that.
If it were BoB who did all the stuff Kug did, they'd get free accounts for life by CCP.
Face it. BoB is CCP's friend. They'll ban anyone BoB wants banned, and allow BoB to do whatever they want.
__________________________ "Its sad when people use religion to feel superior, its even worse to see people using a video game to do it." --Arcken
"...when it comes to pimping EVE I have little restraints." --Hellmar, CEO of CCP.
"It's like they took a gun, put it to their nugget sack and pulled the trigger over and over again, each time telling us how great it was that they were shooting themselves in the balls." --Exar_Kun on SWG's NGE
If it were BoB who did all the stuff Kug did, they'd get free accounts for life by CCP. Face it. BoB is CCP's friend. They'll ban anyone BoB wants banned, and allow BoB to do whatever they want.
Oh look it's mister tinfoil. What a surprise to see you pop in this thread.....no really.
If it were BoB who did all the stuff Kug did, they'd get free accounts for life by CCP. Face it. BoB is CCP's friend. They'll ban anyone BoB wants banned, and allow BoB to do whatever they want.
You took a while comming here losing your touch or is Mapel story too engrosing for you.
Illegal... huh... so is J-walking. Should I be banned from Eve? Does that make the information I uncover any less valuable? Did you read the above? Is everything black and white in your country?
Ashton.... you are deliberately missing the point. Kugutsman didn't get banned because he is a criminal. He got banned for MULTIPLE violations of the EULA...
Whether you want to admit it or not your hero is nothing but a hacker and a criminal. And, let's face it, nobody trusts a convicted criminal... not if they have a lick of common sense.
As I mentioned previously, Kug is not my hero. I don't trust the guy any more then I trust CCP. But that's the point - his information is as open to criticism and critical thought as that which comes from CCP, or anyone on this forum here really. All I have said is that to dismiss by virtue of the source alone is foolish, because we have no verifiable source, CCP included. I think that if there is an accusation of deliberatly missing a point then the 4 fingers pointing back at you might be a tell.
I am not arguing for why Kug got banned here, that's a different topic. I have seen the EULA breach list - and I have my own thoughts on that. Frankly its not important because CCP seems content to keep him banned and Kug seems content to be banned. What I am discussing is your statement, "let's face it, nobody trusts a convicted criminal..."
You see I agree with you. We are on the same page. And yet if a convicted criminal was running down the hall screaming "GET OUT, THERE IS A BOMB IN THE BUILDING!" I would probably leave the building. Maybe you would stay. I would leave because it costs me nothing to believe him. If the same guy said "Give me $100 bucks till next week," then I would probably be with you in saying "No thanks."
It costs us nothing to read Kugs words and consider them. It costs us nothing to read CCPs words and consider them. Both of them have bias, and agenda. By nature of him having a skewed moral compass on what is right and wrong with internet ettiquete doesn't mean he can't make a solid point or find in regard to issues at CCP. Do we take everything he says with a grain of salt? Yes - maybe a tablespoon - whatever your preference. But closing your eyes to the evidence because your don't like the messenger may just mean you end up missing the truth.
And in that case I hope there is no bomb in the building.
Cheers.
Sorry, been off the forums for a bit. Too busy playing lately to bother posting in the boards either here or the official ones.
My stance is simple: What Kug posted originally helped the community. He actually got CCP to address an issue that really needed it. However, since then he's posted nothing but lies and half truthes, his latest so-called scandal is a prime example of this. So while I agree the initial outing WAS good for the game, his subsequent posts are nothing but hatred for a company that rightfully banned him from their servers.
So, while I agree that his INITIAL posts/revelations/whatever were helpful I also feel he needs to make sure his facts are accurate before posting them. But he's proven incapable of double checking his facts and ensuring they are accurate before making statements that anyone with half a brain can debunk, much less CCP.
So when Kug posts? I am more than happy to READ what he writes (3rd party reposts mind you, no way I point a browser anywhere NEAR his site, you do know he runs multiple loggers and uses IE and Mozilla weaknesses to install spyware on systems, right?) But do I take what he says anywhere NEAR at face value? No.
CCP may act slowly
And CCP may obfuscate a bit.
But CCP has never outright lied to people nor have they gone out of their way to destroy people's reputations.
Kug has. So if it's his word against theirs? I take theirs.
It's just that simple.
And, frankly, I sort of expect a certain ammt of GM 'fraud' in any MMORPG that allows it's GM's to play. I also expect MMORPG's to allow their GM's to play so that they fully understand how the things they create impact the game. (RigNanoIstabPhoons anyone!??) So every now and then I'm sure we'll find something has gone wrong. In this case it took a bit of a nudge by the community to get CCP to do the right thing. And, as I said in other threads, I probably would have fired T20 if it were my decision. But I can see why a game company would chose not to if the employee were exceptionally skilled in an area. I've seen network admins on major contracts do worse than that and not get fired and I've seen people who do far less get canned in an instant.
The BPO's in the T20 incident have been removed from game.
A new division in CCP was created to monitor GM activities to prevent these situations.
The way in which BPO's are spawned was changed (mechanics) to prevent the ability to do such things in future. Etc.
Eventually they plan to do away with the entire random nature of BPO distribution as well.
Are there other areas where GM's can adversely impact the game? Sure... then again it's perfectly within my ability to take down the entire network where I work. Would I do it? No but I *could*... so does my customer fire the company I work for and find another one to contract with because something like that COULD happen? No, they don't, that would be silly because that company would have just as much ability to do such things. And, if they actually got it to where that company couldn't possibly negatively impact their network they may as well run the network themselves anyway.
So I guess the bottom line is:
The most recent allegations by Kug were completely and totally debunked both by the communtiy AND by CCP
So unlessKug comes up with FACTS? He needs to stfu and go find another game to play.
And: If you don't trust CCP enough to trust that they are trying to do what's right for the game then go play something else.
It really just is that simple. For me? I'm not quitting EVE over something this bloody minor. And certainly not based on allegations by a guy who's proven himself unreliable.
I have a simple rule about MMOs: I play them till they're no longer fun.
"A ship-of-war is the best ambassador." - Oliver Cromwell
Gods, quit the game already if you're that worked up over it. Infinity is in development and so far looks pretty good. They just have to get it over the hurdle so it isn't just pretty pictures and promises. There aren't trainable skills, just a money grind to buy bigger better ships and equipment.
If the Devs cheating is the issue I hate to break it to you but, thats what they do. Human nature at work, need money, ships, equipment or other nice stuff to have? If they have the ability to spawn it for themselves and gain influence in an organisation they'll do it, plain and simple. The messed up part is that they got caught helping one side over the other which is just plain bogus.
Now as I said if its that big a deal then quit, you can hold out till the next game comes along and you can spend that subscription money on upgrading your computer. If its not that big a deal to you then play the part of the lemming and keep sending CCP your money and just bend over and take it, either way move on. Everyone knows I have no use for this game but give it a rest already.
By the way good going Kug, make CCP own up to their nefarious ways.
(the following is a collection of quotes and requotes from the link above which ends in an answer by the CCP community manager). These incidents are different from the "T20 incident". Have fun Erillion
Three other employees of CCP have been caught violating the company’s rules by playing EveOnline and were reprimanded or lost their jobs as a consequence.
While I am not sure about one of the events, I would guess two of the incidents mentioned involved the GM that was fired last summer for abusing his authority and the volunteer who was removed from ISD and perma banned for breaking the rules the summer before that, both of which were publically announced. Since the article does not go into specifics about the instances, it is impossible to take more than an educated guess.
While CCP have done many bad things recently I don't know if I would go so bad as to say they are criminal. But, yeah, I don't trust them. I don't trust Kug either. Not cause he is a criminal but because I don't trust anything that I read on the net without getting conformation that it is true from elsewhere.
So I trust him when he says t20 cheated and helped the Band of Cheaters. Cause CCP backed him up.
I trust him when he says that Evolution use account sharing, cause I know someone in Evolution and they don't deny it.
So, now I have this further allegation. At the moment I don't know. I'll wait and see.
Comments
There is the Law and there are Ethics, the are not the same and in many places conflict. Here are examples:
1- Legal But Not Ethical: It is legal to force customers into signing EULAs that forfeit their rights to demand a refund when services change into something not originally purchased, but it is an unethical practice because you are forcing your customers to give up their right to demand that service remains consistent.
2) Ethical But Not Legal: It is ethically correct to steal food to feed your children, but it is not legal.
In this case Kug is following example 2, he, if the accusations are true, hacked BoD's forums and found out they were getting developer support. Ethically, Kug is in the good, but legally he is not. Now my personal opinion, if you are not a prosecutor or a judge (People who make a living off of the Injustice system), then why should you be outraged if someone does something ethically correct, but morally wrong?
Which would you rather have an ethical society or a society filled with lawyers trying to bend the law to their advantage?
--When you resubscribe to SWG, an 18 yearold Stripper finds Jesus, gives up stripping, and moves with a rolex reverend to Hawaii.
--In MMORPG's l007 is the opiate of the masses.
--The absence of evidence is not the evidence of absence!
--CCP could cut off an Eve player's fun bits, and that player would say that it was good CCP did that.
1-Kug hacked the forum gaining Admin or superadmin rights
2-Creates what ever post he wants with whatever he wants in it, Maybe this time a 6 page conversation from BoB directors and oveur on how EVE will be modified to fit BoB tactics better.
3- Screenshots it, fraps it, take you pick, and posts it on his site.
4- Deletes the posts from the board
Now after doing this if BoB or Oveur denies it and show the forums that do not have said message posted on it. He then can state that they just deleted it to cover up the massive CCP/BoB and that only he will do the honorable thing and expose such horrible truths.
Now again that is something that may or may not have happened. Add that their is very few evidence to collaborate him, it diffcult to guarntee that anything he says he false. if he gets lucky and gets 1 or 2 things right then he starts to garner some truth for somepeople, sadly if there where 20+ incorrect accusations they are sometimes ignored.
Well thats some of my thought on why I chose to wait and listen to CCP over Kug. As for the reasons he was banned well there is nothing to say that he didn't edit the messages to his liking also? He ann CCP where in a race for the first ounce of credability and only he knew when the race started. As such no matter what CCP says he can just say that they are trying to cover up the truths that he is revealing, be honest its a not so uncommon political practice in the U.S.. Make the other guy look bad first so people won't trust his replies.
CCP screwed themselves up by not listening to the communtiy and having T20 removed from his employment all together, this now is a message to other Dev/GM/ISD that cheating is possible and they wont get the sack for it.
I just wonder now which alliance is going to lose a Dev/GM/ISD next month, because Kug has promised to reveal one each month, this i blame on Kieron for not listening to the community.
So yeah kug is a criminal, it was good that he got his 5 accounts banned, but a few more should have been banned too.. SirMolle, DBPreacher, they also broke the EULA and got off scot free
the so-called hacker exposed cheating in a game where the ingame currency, isks, have a realworld monetary value (via GTCs if nothing else). so by cheating, they're actually taking something that has a realworld value.
guess stealing money isn't criminal, but allegedly hacking into people, who are cheating in the game, thereby (in)directly stealing money, is?
right-o."
This whole situation lies in a grey area. You say that t20 stole real money, but how much of our actions in EvE would thus be criminal? After all, when you take ore from a miner, you are stealing his ISKs and therefore real money from him using your argument. And how about when you use the thief system to trick someone into PvP combat in high sec and blow up their ship? Not only did you steal their ISKs by taking their loot/ore, but you blew up their property using questionable game mechanics. How about when someone gets scammed for millions of ISK? Does that mean the scammer is a white collar criminal and should spend time in jail in real life? Players use holes in the contract system to cheat other players out of ISKs all of the time. Are they criminals?
If ISK=real money then how much of EvE is actually legal?
It's not at all ok what t20 did. It's disgusting, but I still don't see him as a criminal. I would have been happiest if he had lost his job. I am not happy that he is still around and got just a slap on the wrist. I have a problem though with people painting all of CCP as corrupt. We don't know that for sure, and certainly nothing of what I've read on Kug's site makes me think that there is undeniable proof that CCP is corrupt through and through.
In fact to me, it seems like Kug's intentions are not for the better good of everyone now. At first yes, because he exposed a cheater in one of the top alliances in the game that had the potential of having a massive effect (though those effects are being debated by the playerbase). But now he is on an ego trip and trying to wreck the game as a vendetta against CCP. I don't know for certain if he is breaking the law, hacking as much as people say he is. He himself admitted to a few things, which makes me think that at least some of it is true. However, even if he is not breaking the law by hacking, he could become a criminal because he is essentially blackmailing a business. T20's actions will not see him put in jail, but Kug's will if he keeps this up.
Again, vote with your wallet. If t20's effects are so horrific in the game in your eyes, then you can easily solve it by not paying CCP. However, if Kug is indeed hacking ppls' accounts without them knowing, you can't solve that very easily and yes, it could have devastating consequences on the game depending on what he actually does.
Back in EvE. Started with BatMUD. Main MMOs have been EvE and DAoC.
Yeah - I will admit I am a bit sensational with my post titles. Sensational post titles generate interest > interest generates reading > and reading generates a good discussion (sometimes) like the one in this thread. I haven't in any way in the thread suggested that CCP is criminal. Just consider the title as the teaser, not the content.
Incoming opinion:
Right now, at this very moment, I am leaning more towards trusting Kug. Not by a lot. But this is why, in no particular order, and brought up by people throughout the thread.
1) CCP has more to lose, Kug has very little to lose.
2) Kug is being misrepresented as blanketing us with accusations towards CCP, when in actuallity he has made very very few allegations, they have been targetted.
3) Kug hasn't really been making accusations so much as providing people with the first hand information to deduce the accusation themself. Granted, because this information filters through Kug we needto be critical of it.
4) CCP have lied to us historically to protect their interests (who wouldn't?)
5) CCP as a corporation may heave the best of intentions, but they have no way to control the individuals that they employ. The only way to control people in that type of environment is through a culture of intolerance toward indiscretion in the game, and because of CCPs track record in both breaches and their handling of those breaches (primarily the latter) I don't trust the culture that they have fostered.
All that is not to say that I don't point blind trust Kug - here are the reasons against the above:
1) Kug has a chip on his shoulders.
2) I don't trust Kug's moral compass.
Cheers.
Kug got banned for many reason the few i know was
He posted detailed real life information which included ccp employees
He hacked into other players accounts
Sirmolle posted very limited amount of RL information he said something like 'Does is snow in indonessia anthony'
From what i heard Kug posted detailed addresses. Now thats all we know, Kug maybe have done even more breaches, point is he got banned for many reasons and all were good reason, ccp are protected themselves and you.
I just wonder now what dark secret lies between SirMolle and CCP? Is SirMolle a GM / DEV / ISD or maybe even a director of CCP?
With kugutsumen on the case, we will soon find out and i hope he manages to post some RL info back
Now i happen to agree with slater on the fact that Kug having nothing to lose makes him even more questionable. The funny part is though my guess is that he's more happy now then I would say he ever would have been. A practical nobody that is suddenly getting all the spotlight, i'm sure he's just soaking up the attention. The only way to keep that attention is to keep posting his allegations, and since he got thier first he appears to be truthful, able to accuse CCP of covering up anything he says is right. He's in the perfect position, nothing to lose, a sliver of credability, and enough momentum in public opinion to continue to give weight to anything he says. I would say he's in a position that would be a politican's wet dream.
Now I happen to disagree with #3 mostly because if I give you evidence of your neighbor being a child molester then I'm making an accusation. Just because I don't say it does not mean that I didn't imply the accusations. though he may have not accused directly he did present evidence with the sole purpose for people to arrive at the accusations that he wished to level. Which again is a smart move on the public front as it shows him in a very passive light (people don't like it when you directly acttack someone else for the most part).
If I had to label Kug it would be as a cunning, manipulative person who knows just how to portray events in the best light for himself.
As for the Sirmolle, DBpreacher issue, they should have recieved a temporary ban for about a month. The didn't break the EULA but they damn well scratched it. I don't think its should be bannable to say that I'm brad from Pennsylvannia. but if you start listing First and last names with addresses then yeah ban your ass for good(Sirmolle at least did not list any heavy details). While I have not tried it you probably could figure out more information on Kug just by looking up the domain registration information for his website which is publicly available.
Heya Lordslater - let me answer some of your good points. Thanks for them:
1) Your point "Kug has nothing to lose so he can lie." You are infurring that CCP is held to a higher standard of truth because by lying they have more to lose. Although this is true CCP has effectively circumvented this by just remaining silent. Look through the announcement ofthe IA director thread and you will see lists of impassioned questions by loyal customers who feel cheated/hurt/betrayed and you will say they remain unanswered. I'm not saying you don't have a point at all - I recognize that at the end of the day Kug can say whatever he wants without consequence and at any time just walk away. And for certain that is a good reason to be skeptical of anything he writes, which any responsible reader should be.
2) I haven't heard anyone say anything other then him being very intelligent. I was simply tring to dismiss the point I have read repeadtedly where people are representing him as a guy that is just firing off random and many accusations. That is not the case.
3) Yes, Kug could falsify anything. I don't think anyone, including the authors of the "captured" posts have ever claimed they were false though - I think most of the issue have been around the method in which they were obtained. If the authors of these posts that Kug has started coming forward and saying "I never wrote that" then I think this would be a valid point.
4) I'm speaking about when they said there was no issue with the T20 thing and then admitted after being forced to that there was. Unfortunately since it took a hacker to bring them forward to the truth during this past instance, and previous to that no hacker has forced CCP into accountability, and CCP are the sole people with access to the information with which to hold themselves accountable, I can't answer that question. I am suspect of their previous claims of innocence because of their lying around this one. They basically said "no, it never happened," but when they realized that the evidence was overwhelming and couldn't be stopped came forward and admitted it. Point is: CCP has lied to us. They have the moral capability to lie to us. They have proven this.
Cheers mate - thanks for the good discussion. Don't read into my points that I am a staunch defender of Kug - I am just saying that we can't dismiss his information just because we don't like the messenger or his methods. We need to take it and evaluate it on its own.
Heya Lordslater - let me answer some of your good points. Thanks for them:
1) Your point "Kug has nothing to lose so he can lie." You are infurring that CCP is held to a higher standard of truth because by lying they have more to lose. Although this is true CCP has effectively circumvented this by just remaining silent. Look through the announcement ofthe IA director thread and you will see lists of impassioned questions by loyal customers who feel cheated/hurt/betrayed and you will say they remain unanswered. I'm not saying you don't have a point at all - I recognize that at the end of the day Kug can say whatever he wants without consequence and at any time just walk away. And for certain that is a good reason to be skeptical of anything he writes, which any responsible reader should be.
2) I haven't heard anyone say anything other then him being very intelligent. I was simply tring to dismiss the point I have read repeadtedly where people are representing him as a guy that is just firing off random and many accusations. That is not the case.
3) Yes, Kug could falsify anything. I don't think anyone, including the authors of the "captured" posts have ever claimed they were false though - I think most of the issue have been around the method in which they were obtained. If the authors of these posts that Kug has started coming forward and saying "I never wrote that" then I think this would be a valid point.
4) I'm speaking about when they said there was no issue with the T20 thing and then admitted after being forced to that there was. Unfortunately since it took a hacker to bring them forward to the truth during this past instance, and previous to that no hacker has forced CCP into accountability, and CCP are the sole people with access to the information with which to hold themselves accountable, I can't answer that question. I am suspect of their previous claims of innocence because of their lying around this one. They basically said "no, it never happened," but when they realized that the evidence was overwhelming and couldn't be stopped came forward and admitted it. Point is: CCP has lied to us. They have the moral capability to lie to us. They have proven this.
Cheers mate - thanks for the good discussion. Don't read into my points that I am a staunch defender of Kug - I am just saying that we can't dismiss his information just because we don't like the messenger or his methods. We need to take it and evaluate it on its own.
I pretty much agree with what you put here but i would like to point out one aspect of the origonall T20 scandall.....2 actually that you might find interesting.
First of all when it was origonally discovered 6 months before the revelations via hacking however at that time ccp was operating on a skeliton staff basis as most of the senior staff was away for Fanshows holidays and sick leave. The origonall peiopel who investigated things did it more or less by phone and online so they couldnt find everything then because of this they put the origonall punishment to T20, back then tho they hadnt found out the full truth mainly because not everyone was there and the origonal inverigating staff was underpowered.
What wasant discovered in the origonal enquiery was the 10 tech 2 BPO's and some of the secret forum networks T20 and some BoB members were using [tho the network in itself is not illegal in any way].
6 Months later the full truth cvame out including the presence of a set of bluprints that should not ahve been where they were, Sadly because T20 lives in iceland he is protected from further punishment from waht was seen as the same misdenemour by iclandic employment laws so CCP couldnt punish him further [example fire him] However he did make a public apology [tho i found it a bit lacking in some ways] and CCP gaming charecters were deleted.
As to why sir mole was not deleted or punished for reveiling real world details of a certain hacker well all he reveiled was his anme and which country he live in which was thiland a palce where its data protection laws are slack enough that he cant be arrested for his crimes [its why he moved from america].
As for the billions of isk and ships and modules BoB got from those blueprints its sadly impossable to remove it all as most of it was brought from legit palyers with legit isk [see some of the bluprints were of rare ships much sought after].
I can agree the second one is iffy.
--Though it does make me question CCP's hiring practices with regard to GMs. Too much room for conflict of interest with hiring ex-alliance leaders.
--When you resubscribe to SWG, an 18 yearold Stripper finds Jesus, gives up stripping, and moves with a rolex reverend to Hawaii.
--In MMORPG's l007 is the opiate of the masses.
--The absence of evidence is not the evidence of absence!
--CCP could cut off an Eve player's fun bits, and that player would say that it was good CCP did that.
Even tough, you were part of something you helped build and then see it being threatened (Not saying this is the case with the current GM), I know I would feel a conflict personally.
On the other hand, it is good to have people who know the alliance mechanics backward and forward...
--I'm in the Loss Prevention/Asset Protection industry, so I am a little more "overly cautious" then others are. (You'd think I'd hate hackers insanely, wouldn't ya?
--When you resubscribe to SWG, an 18 yearold Stripper finds Jesus, gives up stripping, and moves with a rolex reverend to Hawaii.
--In MMORPG's l007 is the opiate of the masses.
--The absence of evidence is not the evidence of absence!
--CCP could cut off an Eve player's fun bits, and that player would say that it was good CCP did that.
If it were BoB who did all the stuff Kug did, they'd get free accounts for life by CCP.
Face it. BoB is CCP's friend. They'll ban anyone BoB wants banned, and allow BoB to do whatever they want.
__________________________
"Its sad when people use religion to feel superior, its even worse to see people using a video game to do it."
--Arcken
"...when it comes to pimping EVE I have little restraints."
--Hellmar, CEO of CCP.
"It's like they took a gun, put it to their nugget sack and pulled the trigger over and over again, each time telling us how great it was that they were shooting themselves in the balls."
--Exar_Kun on SWG's NGE
Whether you want to admit it or not your hero is nothing but a hacker and a criminal. And, let's face it, nobody trusts a convicted criminal... not if they have a lick of common sense.
As I mentioned previously, Kug is not my hero. I don't trust the guy any more then I trust CCP. But that's the point - his information is as open to criticism and critical thought as that which comes from CCP, or anyone on this forum here really. All I have said is that to dismiss by virtue of the source alone is foolish, because we have no verifiable source, CCP included. I think that if there is an accusation of deliberatly missing a point then the 4 fingers pointing back at you might be a tell.
I am not arguing for why Kug got banned here, that's a different topic. I have seen the EULA breach list - and I have my own thoughts on that. Frankly its not important because CCP seems content to keep him banned and Kug seems content to be banned. What I am discussing is your statement, "let's face it, nobody trusts a convicted criminal..."
You see I agree with you. We are on the same page. And yet if a convicted criminal was running down the hall screaming "GET OUT, THERE IS A BOMB IN THE BUILDING!" I would probably leave the building. Maybe you would stay. I would leave because it costs me nothing to believe him. If the same guy said "Give me $100 bucks till next week," then I would probably be with you in saying "No thanks."
It costs us nothing to read Kugs words and consider them. It costs us nothing to read CCPs words and consider them. Both of them have bias, and agenda. By nature of him having a skewed moral compass on what is right and wrong with internet ettiquete doesn't mean he can't make a solid point or find in regard to issues at CCP. Do we take everything he says with a grain of salt? Yes - maybe a tablespoon - whatever your preference. But closing your eyes to the evidence because your don't like the messenger may just mean you end up missing the truth.
And in that case I hope there is no bomb in the building.
Cheers.
Sorry, been off the forums for a bit. Too busy playing lately to bother posting in the boards either here or the official ones.
My stance is simple: What Kug posted originally helped the community. He actually got CCP to address an issue that really needed it. However, since then he's posted nothing but lies and half truthes, his latest so-called scandal is a prime example of this. So while I agree the initial outing WAS good for the game, his subsequent posts are nothing but hatred for a company that rightfully banned him from their servers.
So, while I agree that his INITIAL posts/revelations/whatever were helpful I also feel he needs to make sure his facts are accurate before posting them. But he's proven incapable of double checking his facts and ensuring they are accurate before making statements that anyone with half a brain can debunk, much less CCP.
So when Kug posts? I am more than happy to READ what he writes (3rd party reposts mind you, no way I point a browser anywhere NEAR his site, you do know he runs multiple loggers and uses IE and Mozilla weaknesses to install spyware on systems, right?) But do I take what he says anywhere NEAR at face value? No.
CCP may act slowly
And CCP may obfuscate a bit.
But CCP has never outright lied to people nor have they gone out of their way to destroy people's reputations.
Kug has. So if it's his word against theirs? I take theirs.
It's just that simple.
And, frankly, I sort of expect a certain ammt of GM 'fraud' in any MMORPG that allows it's GM's to play. I also expect MMORPG's to allow their GM's to play so that they fully understand how the things they create impact the game. (RigNanoIstabPhoons anyone!??) So every now and then I'm sure we'll find something has gone wrong. In this case it took a bit of a nudge by the community to get CCP to do the right thing. And, as I said in other threads, I probably would have fired T20 if it were my decision. But I can see why a game company would chose not to if the employee were exceptionally skilled in an area. I've seen network admins on major contracts do worse than that and not get fired and I've seen people who do far less get canned in an instant.
The BPO's in the T20 incident have been removed from game.
A new division in CCP was created to monitor GM activities to prevent these situations.
The way in which BPO's are spawned was changed (mechanics) to prevent the ability to do such things in future. Etc.
Eventually they plan to do away with the entire random nature of BPO distribution as well.
Are there other areas where GM's can adversely impact the game? Sure... then again it's perfectly within my ability to take down the entire network where I work. Would I do it? No but I *could*... so does my customer fire the company I work for and find another one to contract with because something like that COULD happen? No, they don't, that would be silly because that company would have just as much ability to do such things. And, if they actually got it to where that company couldn't possibly negatively impact their network they may as well run the network themselves anyway.
So I guess the bottom line is:
The most recent allegations by Kug were completely and totally debunked both by the communtiy AND by CCP
So unlessKug comes up with FACTS? He needs to stfu and go find another game to play.
And: If you don't trust CCP enough to trust that they are trying to do what's right for the game then go play something else.
It really just is that simple. For me? I'm not quitting EVE over something this bloody minor. And certainly not based on allegations by a guy who's proven himself unreliable.
I have a simple rule about MMOs: I play them till they're no longer fun.
"A ship-of-war is the best ambassador." - Oliver Cromwell
Gods, quit the game already if you're that worked up over it. Infinity is in development and so far looks pretty good. They just have to get it over the hurdle so it isn't just pretty pictures and promises. There aren't trainable skills, just a money grind to buy bigger better ships and equipment.
If the Devs cheating is the issue I hate to break it to you but, thats what they do. Human nature at work, need money, ships, equipment or other nice stuff to have? If they have the ability to spawn it for themselves and gain influence in an organisation they'll do it, plain and simple. The messed up part is that they got caught helping one side over the other which is just plain bogus.
Now as I said if its that big a deal then quit, you can hold out till the next game comes along and you can spend that subscription money on upgrading your computer. If its not that big a deal to you then play the part of the lemming and keep sending CCP your money and just bend over and take it, either way move on. Everyone knows I have no use for this game but give it a rest already.
By the way good going Kug, make CCP own up to their nefarious ways.
CCP axed another of its developers due to misconduct - very very quietly ... and had to fess up because it was published on an icelandic website.
http://myeve.eve-online.com/ingamebo...=484863&page=7
(the following is a collection of quotes and requotes from the link above which ends in an answer by the CCP community manager). These incidents are different from the "T20 incident".
Have fun
Erillion
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Apparently, there were 3 other incidents that took place back then we never heard about....
http://www.icelandreview.com/iceland..._0_a_id=264532
note where it says:
Quote:
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Three other employees of CCP have been caught violating the company’s rules by playing EveOnline and were reprimanded or lost their jobs as a consequence.
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While I am not sure about one of the events, I would guess two of the incidents mentioned involved the GM that was fired last summer for abusing his authority and the volunteer who was removed from ISD and perma banned for breaking the rules the summer before that, both of which were publically announced. Since the article does not go into specifics about the instances, it is impossible to take more than an educated guess.
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I keep hearing rumors about a very recent incident, with a Nyx and a GM. Not sure if its true, but if it is, any chance you'd post about that?
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Due to our privacy policy, I an not at liberty to say any more than the Developer (not GM) referenced is no longer with the organization.
kieron
Community Manager,
EVE Online
While CCP have done many bad things recently I don't know if I would go so bad as to say they are criminal. But, yeah, I don't trust them. I don't trust Kug either. Not cause he is a criminal but because I don't trust anything that I read on the net without getting conformation that it is true from elsewhere.
So I trust him when he says t20 cheated and helped the Band of Cheaters. Cause CCP backed him up.
I trust him when he says that Evolution use account sharing, cause I know someone in Evolution and they don't deny it.
So, now I have this further allegation. At the moment I don't know. I'll wait and see.