i'll be honest with you i think posting on forums sometimes as heated and debated as these is something that certainly takes a bit of courage, at least to verify your own statement and in your obvious position as the developing companies CEO.
Can i just say a few things...
Lets dispel a myth on these boards at least for a few seconds that is:
a Anybody is on the payroll of Sigil spreading word about the product and trying to push its subscription numbers through desperation
b There is a malicious few whom genuinely have a dislike for you and your product and alot of the hard criticism Vanguard is currently recieving on several parts of the internet based MMORPG community space is actually from very frustrated and genuinely disappointed players.
Ok with that in mind i can only offer the following humble thoughts in terms of vanguards current situation, good in some opinions bad in others...
As said before the posters around here are ALL entitled to their own opinions as the gaming public whether on these MMORPG forums or not, especially since forums such as these are "Neutral" ground in a sense of the word.
I have seen posts by some, for example, considered a "dedicated fan", come what may they will fight to the death ;-), whom preach with all sincerity and hard posts that Vanguard is the "Game that sucks less than the rest " and that for them the play experience is perfect and unrivalled. There are a few others around here too with the same opinion and mindset but more objective in their approach and hey, let them go for it im glad they are enjoying themsleves in the world yourself and your team created. But when they refuse to acknowledge the flaws and current areas that need large improvement in the game even from posters that post "constructive" criticsm, thats when it rubs the most against a community of people wanting to get across a clear and truthful / accurate message about the product in its current state. Thats where the heat is being generated. And vice versa for those dedicated fans of Vanguard when someone simply posts nothing but contempt for the application without hide nor hair of comments that are actually "constructive" in nature.
Unfortunately "unlike" the individuals whom post to simply critisize in a non-constructive way, the initial example of posters are actually doing the game MORE damage in the online space than the latter...and this is because Vanguard is not a fully realized product at the moment, you know it, i know it, a large majority of the online community knows it. The damage is being done by the games Niche and "Minority" die-hard group because the majority do not agree with the views that are posted regularly by them claiming how "polished and brilliant" an experience vanguard is. This is where the genuine frustration, genuine anger and bile comes from because these players that post in response to the "rose-tinted" hard core minority posts are genuinely frustrated and disappointed in vanguards current performance from an application point of view as well as not being able to stand seeing blatent mis-communication of the state of the game to the game playing public. And the spark for the fires on forums discussing vanguard at the moment, is the fact that these "Die Hard" posts and "hype" if you will do indeed rub because of the initial disappointment and technical despair a substantial number have had with the product on release and it is this substantial number that are biting in response to the applications more Die Hard / Hard Core followers. Ironically that disappointment and frustration was originally caused because of the high amounts of hype and expectation's set throughout the internet by the more Hard Core base within the game in the first place.
You have some pretty big fish to fry in the code base and balance areas of the application yet that much is very very obvious.
I am actually the same EvilMagpie whom on the SOE technical forums tried to boost the usefulness and validity of the "Memory Leak" thread which grew to be a big thread from its origin a couple of days after release. Myself and others used tools readily available to IT professionals (one example) which we use in our every day jobs too track unusual behaviour and resource handling problems in this case the VGClient.exe process was our subject of monitoring in certain geographical areas of the game. That thread was subject to some very constructive posts, but was also subject to a substantial amount of Die Hard posts telling us we were wrong, telling us we were making matters up, telling us we should check our respective gaming systems, even though most of us that posted there were from a highly technical backgrounds. Trying to constructively present our case was simply met with retort not only from the more "Die-Hard" fan base present there but also from a CSR at one point. That in turn heated up the post as we then turned from patiently finding and testing and quantifying the leaks too becoming flame bait and eventually biting back...the situation escalated until finally in one of the release notes...You yourselves made claims of fixing exhibited memory leaks in the client application code. This is just one example but hopefully it demonstrates in part what is occuring on many different levels of discussion regarding Vanguard all over the internet.
For the record Brad i do not believe that you have a magic wand capable of making this all disappear and nor do i think any developer is capable of such a charge. What i do believe however is that for most of the "Core" gamers your product is in part trying to reach as stated by yourself...the first impression that grabs them more than anything else when playing a game for the first time is, how it feels and how it runs on there hardware contributing massively to their "fun" factor...hands down over anything. More mature MMORPG players seasoned in the traditional hard way to the market will look above and around or beyond this and realise potential and social complexities possible in a game as deep in mechanics and potential for online adventure such as Saga of heroes...but the latter are a game playing minority now in this day and age as this market continues to expand far beyond what it was. A market you helped create. Potential out of the box isnt the full shilling anymore, but you know this.
For the record there is no hidden agenda here my friend in my words and thoughts, Myself my fiance' and friends and family a total of around nine subscribers all left vanguard recently after our initial 30 days, but were very excited initially by its potential and scope. We wish you and your team the best of luck in the future for your product and may (after what is (subjectively) a hazy release period) it progress from strength to strength for the sake of your company's future and foremostly its current community.
All the forum BS in the world isn't going to make a person love or hate a game once they get into it and actually play it. Positive BS might get someone to pay that initial purchase price but it won't keep them subscribing if the game can't live up to it. The best a word of mouth campaign can do is to sell some more boxes. But to keep subscribers a game has to stand on it's own merits.
All this BS aside there is something I want to say to Brad since he may keep reading this thread. Brad, you were in a position to do anything you wanted with a new mmorpg. You had your success with EQ when mmorpgs were still new. You were established as an important person in the mmorpg business.
You could have tried to really move the genre forward. You could have done anything you wanted. And what did you do? You tried to remake EQ. That's the thing that really depresses me about this. There are independant developers out there who would shake things up if they had a fraction of the backing that you had. But they don't so they struggle and never get their projects much past the wishful thinking stage.
You could have been a hero to all the jaded gamers out there. You could have tried to pull mmorpgs out of the rut they are in. But you didn't even try. And if someone in your position won't try then it makes me wonder if these games will ever get past the current stagnation they are wallowing in.
All the forum BS in the world isn't going to make a person love or hate a game once they get into it and actually play it. Positive BS might get someone to pay that initial purchase price but it won't keep them subscribing if the game can't live up to it. The best a word of mouth campaign can do is to sell some more boxes. But to keep subscribers a game has to stand on it's own merits. All this BS aside there is something I want to say to Brad since he may keep reading this thread. Brad, you were in a position to do anything you wanted with a new mmorpg. You had your success with EQ when mmorpgs were still new. You were established as an important person in the mmorpg business. You could have tried to really move the genre forward. You could have done anything you wanted. And what did you do? You tried to remake EQ. That's the thing that really depresses me about this. There are independant developers out there who would shake things up if they had a fraction of the backing that you had. But they don't so they struggle and never get their projects much past the wishful thinking stage. You could have been a hero to all the jaded gamers out there. You could have tried to pull mmorpgs out of the rut they are in. But you didn't even try. And if someone in your position won't try then it makes me wonder if these games will ever get past the current stagnation they are wallowing in.
Originally posted by Markaj Originally posted by Grim11 I do not doubt there are companies that do that. But to assume that every positive post about a product is done in that way is just stupid. I have no affilation with Sigil in any way other than I pay for a Vanguard account. Yet I post many positive comments about Vanguard but only because I like the game and feel the hater boys do it a massive diservice with their exagerated claims. Noone directs me to do this.
Grim, calm down mate. I don't think you have anything to worry... yet. Enigma said it right, it is quite easy to spot fake viral posters. Their style is much more blatant and overt. But they carefully try to avoid the naivete peculiar to genuine Vanbois. We might have only a handful in these forums if any. And if you scratch off multiple accounts, maybe only one. Really not that important to dwell on.
The converse is also equally likely, though. Some of the people posting negative comments about the game could just as easily be paid posters from a competitor. And their job is much easier, as they have less need to temper their posts.
As for viral marketing itself? This very site uses it. If you send someone an email from your @mmorpg.com email, it will append a little text blurb at the end of the email pimping MMORPG.com. Hotmail does this as well, and this is where the origin of the term actually comes from. Say I send three of my friends an email from here. Then they follow the blurb back to the site, and sign up for accounts. They each send three friends an email, and so on. That's viral marketing. The term has been co-opted to also mean word of mouth advertising.
The thing that's confusing people is stealth marketing, which is a person paid by a company to post on forums, run a blog, etc, that is used to pimp a product or service.
People are so paranoid about fake posts preaching that the game is horrible or wonderfull, just try it for yourself and see.
The only way to find yourself immersed in a deep challenging game with cutting edge graphics, a seamless world, and new innovations in the MMO genre that will make you raise your expectations and never let you down.
A vast and ancient world of magic, intrigue and adventure. Facing the challenges of a war torn world, the diverse people here struggle to rebuild their once great civilizations. A fragile alliance has been struck, with the lands set upon by invading forces, the races must band together to survive. In the north, the sprawling green hills of Thestra are plagued by an unstoppable undead menace. To the south, the deserts of Qalia have been besieged by an elemental threat spawned from the depths of the earth and to the east; inhabitants of the tumultuous jungles of Kojan fiercely battle encroaching otherworldly fiends. Telon is in desperate need of heroes. Your journey begins now. Join a community of thousands of players online as you traverse a breathtaking landscape on the back of a dragon as you explore the grandeur of a world designed by the seminal fantasy artist Keith Parkinson. Create and customize your character from 19 races and 15 professions. Combat fierce opponents with a groundbreaking dynamic combat system that forces you to react to your opponents as you tie together devastating combinations of attacks. The challenge awaits the boldest of heroes.
Just another fan here that felt i needed to share my own thoughts about this brilliant experience that will forever shatter your views of what mmo's should be, you will never complain again.
Originally posted by Sceptix People are so paranoid about fake posts preaching that the game is horrible or wonderfull, just try it for yourself and see.The only way to find yourself immersed in a deep challenging game with cutting edge graphics, a seamless world, and new innovations in the MMO genre that will make you raise your expectations and never let you down.A vast and ancient world of magic, intrigue and adventure. Facing the challenges of a war torn world, the diverse people here struggle to rebuild their once great civilizations. A fragile alliance has been struck, with the lands set upon by invading forces, the races must band together to survive. In the north, the sprawling green hills of Thestra are plagued by an unstoppable undead menace. To the south, the deserts of Qalia have been besieged by an elemental threat spawned from the depths of the earth and to the east; inhabitants of the tumultuous jungles of Kojan fiercely battle encroaching otherworldly fiends. Telon is in desperate need of heroes. Your journey begins now. Join a community of thousands of players online as you traverse a breathtaking landscape on the back of a dragon as you explore the grandeur of a world designed by the seminal fantasy artist Keith Parkinson. Create and customize your character from 19 races and 15 professions. Combat fierce opponents with a groundbreaking dynamic combat system that forces you to react to your opponents as you tie together devastating combinations of attacks. The challenge awaits the boldest of heroes. Just another fan here that felt i needed to share my own thoughts about this brilliant experience that will forever shatter your views of what mmo's should be, you will never complain again.
Now that smells of paid poster. It just reads like a marketing ad through and through.
Ummm.....where in my post did i mention a virus being placed on my machine?
I'm confused where you would be able to interpet that from what I wrote. Is English your native language?
haha, that was funny. I think in all honesty sure some posts might be from a Sigil employee, but they could be speaking the truth(at least they think it). I don't think this is any different than just a subscriber posting.
You do realize that Sony was in fact caught red-handed having it's employee's post favorable reviews regarding their products in the past? It amazes me that some people can't see the ethical violation that entails.
As VG has a connection with Sony, it's worth considering.
you mean just because they have several million dollars at stake and they have not sold a quarter of what they projected they would they might do something sneaky and underhanded, now that just boggles my mind
The converse is also equally likely, though. Some of the people posting negative comments about the game could just as easily be paid posters from a competitor. And their job is much easier, as they have less need to temper their posts. As for viral marketing itself? This very site uses it. If you send someone an email from your @mmorpg.com email, it will append a little text blurb at the end of the email pimping MMORPG.com. Hotmail does this as well, and this is where the origin of the term actually comes from. Say I send three of my friends an email from here. Then they follow the blurb back to the site, and sign up for accounts. They each send three friends an email, and so on. That's viral marketing. The term has been co-opted to also mean word of mouth advertising. The thing that's confusing people is stealth marketing, which is a person paid by a company to post on forums, run a blog, etc, that is used to pimp a product or service.
I find that extremely unlikely. Vanguard's only competitor is Horizons. Horizons players are the only ones naive enough to fall for the hype and continue playng for years in hopes that things will get better. And the Horizons people don't have enough money to hire marketers of any kind. (Yes, this was sarcasm, but seriously, I honestly don't believe any other MMOG feels threatened by Sigil at this point.)
Back to the topic at hand: Stealth marketers are easy to spot. Remember that they are not direct employees of the developer. They work for an independent company contracted by the developer. Thus they often have little experience with the game. They speak in vague generalities and usually have very few in-game anecdotes. They talk about how much 'fun' they are having and claim never to have experienced any of the bad things other people mention. In fact, they often completely ignore any mention of the bad stuff unless they have been directed to address such things, in which case they will often quote or paraphrase the developer's prior statements on the matter.
The converse is also equally likely, though. Some of the people posting negative comments about the game could just as easily be paid posters from a competitor. And their job is much easier, as they have less need to temper their posts. As for viral marketing itself? This very site uses it. If you send someone an email from your @mmorpg.com email, it will append a little text blurb at the end of the email pimping MMORPG.com. Hotmail does this as well, and this is where the origin of the term actually comes from. Say I send three of my friends an email from here. Then they follow the blurb back to the site, and sign up for accounts. They each send three friends an email, and so on. That's viral marketing. The term has been co-opted to also mean word of mouth advertising. The thing that's confusing people is stealth marketing, which is a person paid by a company to post on forums, run a blog, etc, that is used to pimp a product or service.
I find that extremely unlikely. Vanguard's only competitor is Horizons. Horizons players are the only ones naive enough to fall for the hype and continue playng for years in hopes that things will get better. And the Horizons people don't have enough money to hire marketers of any kind. (Yes, this was sarcasm, but seriously, I honestly don't believe any other MMOG feels threatened by Sigil at this point.)
Back to the topic at hand: Stealth marketers are easy to spot. Remember that they are not direct employees of the developer. They work for an independent company contracted by the developer. Thus they often have little experience with the game. They speak in vague generalities and usually have very few in-game anecdotes. They talk about how much 'fun' they are having and claim never to have experienced any of the bad things other people mention. In fact, they often completely ignore any mention of the bad stuff unless they have been directed to address such things, in which case they will often quote or paraphrase the developer's prior statements on the matter.
If I were a stealth marketer, I would come here and write what you just wrote.
Instead I do it for free....cause I like the game. I think many others will like the game too.
Stop doing it for free, hold out for free monthly service at least. Didn't you learn anything in school?
It's been 17 years since I've gone to school , so if I did....I forgot. It only costs me on average 10 cents an hour to play ....I did learn a good value when saw one in school though. Vanguard is a good value for me.....mmorpg's in general are a good value for anyone for that matter.
Comments
Brad. Thanks for posting.
i'll be honest with you i think posting on forums sometimes as heated and debated as these is something that certainly takes a bit of courage, at least to verify your own statement and in your obvious position as the developing companies CEO.
Can i just say a few things...
Lets dispel a myth on these boards at least for a few seconds that is:
a Anybody is on the payroll of Sigil spreading word about the product and trying to push its subscription numbers through desperation
b There is a malicious few whom genuinely have a dislike for you and your product and alot of the hard criticism Vanguard is currently recieving on several parts of the internet based MMORPG community space is actually from very frustrated and genuinely disappointed players.
Ok with that in mind i can only offer the following humble thoughts in terms of vanguards current situation, good in some opinions bad in others...
As said before the posters around here are ALL entitled to their own opinions as the gaming public whether on these MMORPG forums or not, especially since forums such as these are "Neutral" ground in a sense of the word.
I have seen posts by some, for example, considered a "dedicated fan", come what may they will fight to the death ;-), whom preach with all sincerity and hard posts that Vanguard is the "Game that sucks less than the rest " and that for them the play experience is perfect and unrivalled. There are a few others around here too with the same opinion and mindset but more objective in their approach and hey, let them go for it im glad they are enjoying themsleves in the world yourself and your team created. But when they refuse to acknowledge the flaws and current areas that need large improvement in the game even from posters that post "constructive" criticsm, thats when it rubs the most against a community of people wanting to get across a clear and truthful / accurate message about the product in its current state. Thats where the heat is being generated. And vice versa for those dedicated fans of Vanguard when someone simply posts nothing but contempt for the application without hide nor hair of comments that are actually "constructive" in nature.
Unfortunately "unlike" the individuals whom post to simply critisize in a non-constructive way, the initial example of posters are actually doing the game MORE damage in the online space than the latter...and this is because Vanguard is not a fully realized product at the moment, you know it, i know it, a large majority of the online community knows it. The damage is being done by the games Niche and "Minority" die-hard group because the majority do not agree with the views that are posted regularly by them claiming how "polished and brilliant" an experience vanguard is. This is where the genuine frustration, genuine anger and bile comes from because these players that post in response to the "rose-tinted" hard core minority posts are genuinely frustrated and disappointed in vanguards current performance from an application point of view as well as not being able to stand seeing blatent mis-communication of the state of the game to the game playing public. And the spark for the fires on forums discussing vanguard at the moment, is the fact that these "Die Hard" posts and "hype" if you will do indeed rub because of the initial disappointment and technical despair a substantial number have had with the product on release and it is this substantial number that are biting in response to the applications more Die Hard / Hard Core followers. Ironically that disappointment and frustration was originally caused because of the high amounts of hype and expectation's set throughout the internet by the more Hard Core base within the game in the first place.
You have some pretty big fish to fry in the code base and balance areas of the application yet that much is very very obvious.
I am actually the same EvilMagpie whom on the SOE technical forums tried to boost the usefulness and validity of the "Memory Leak" thread which grew to be a big thread from its origin a couple of days after release. Myself and others used tools readily available to IT professionals (one example) which we use in our every day jobs too track unusual behaviour and resource handling problems in this case the VGClient.exe process was our subject of monitoring in certain geographical areas of the game. That thread was subject to some very constructive posts, but was also subject to a substantial amount of Die Hard posts telling us we were wrong, telling us we were making matters up, telling us we should check our respective gaming systems, even though most of us that posted there were from a highly technical backgrounds. Trying to constructively present our case was simply met with retort not only from the more "Die-Hard" fan base present there but also from a CSR at one point. That in turn heated up the post as we then turned from patiently finding and testing and quantifying the leaks too becoming flame bait and eventually biting back...the situation escalated until finally in one of the release notes...You yourselves made claims of fixing exhibited memory leaks in the client application code. This is just one example but hopefully it demonstrates in part what is occuring on many different levels of discussion regarding Vanguard all over the internet.
For the record Brad i do not believe that you have a magic wand capable of making this all disappear and nor do i think any developer is capable of such a charge. What i do believe however is that for most of the "Core" gamers your product is in part trying to reach as stated by yourself...the first impression that grabs them more than anything else when playing a game for the first time is, how it feels and how it runs on there hardware contributing massively to their "fun" factor...hands down over anything. More mature MMORPG players seasoned in the traditional hard way to the market will look above and around or beyond this and realise potential and social complexities possible in a game as deep in mechanics and potential for online adventure such as Saga of heroes...but the latter are a game playing minority now in this day and age as this market continues to expand far beyond what it was. A market you helped create. Potential out of the box isnt the full shilling anymore, but you know this.
For the record there is no hidden agenda here my friend in my words and thoughts, Myself my fiance' and friends and family a total of around nine subscribers all left vanguard recently after our initial 30 days, but were very excited initially by its potential and scope. We wish you and your team the best of luck in the future for your product and may (after what is (subjectively) a hazy release period) it progress from strength to strength for the sake of your company's future and foremostly its current community.
Peace and regards and best of luck
Mag
All the forum BS in the world isn't going to make a person love or hate a game once they get into it and actually play it. Positive BS might get someone to pay that initial purchase price but it won't keep them subscribing if the game can't live up to it. The best a word of mouth campaign can do is to sell some more boxes. But to keep subscribers a game has to stand on it's own merits.
All this BS aside there is something I want to say to Brad since he may keep reading this thread. Brad, you were in a position to do anything you wanted with a new mmorpg. You had your success with EQ when mmorpgs were still new. You were established as an important person in the mmorpg business.
You could have tried to really move the genre forward. You could have done anything you wanted. And what did you do? You tried to remake EQ. That's the thing that really depresses me about this. There are independant developers out there who would shake things up if they had a fraction of the backing that you had. But they don't so they struggle and never get their projects much past the wishful thinking stage.
You could have been a hero to all the jaded gamers out there. You could have tried to pull mmorpgs out of the rut they are in. But you didn't even try. And if someone in your position won't try then it makes me wonder if these games will ever get past the current stagnation they are wallowing in.
The converse is also equally likely, though. Some of the people posting negative comments about the game could just as easily be paid posters from a competitor. And their job is much easier, as they have less need to temper their posts.
As for viral marketing itself? This very site uses it. If you send someone an email from your @mmorpg.com email, it will append a little text blurb at the end of the email pimping MMORPG.com. Hotmail does this as well, and this is where the origin of the term actually comes from. Say I send three of my friends an email from here. Then they follow the blurb back to the site, and sign up for accounts. They each send three friends an email, and so on. That's viral marketing. The term has been co-opted to also mean word of mouth advertising.
The thing that's confusing people is stealth marketing, which is a person paid by a company to post on forums, run a blog, etc, that is used to pimp a product or service.
The only way to find yourself immersed in a deep challenging game with cutting edge graphics, a seamless world, and new innovations in the MMO genre that will make you raise your expectations and never let you down.
A vast and ancient world of magic, intrigue and adventure. Facing the challenges of a war torn world, the diverse people here struggle to rebuild their once great civilizations. A fragile alliance has been struck, with the lands set upon by invading forces, the races must band together to survive. In the north, the sprawling green hills of Thestra are plagued by an unstoppable undead menace. To the south, the deserts of Qalia have been besieged by an elemental threat spawned from the depths of the earth and to the east; inhabitants of the tumultuous jungles of Kojan fiercely battle encroaching otherworldly fiends. Telon is in desperate need of heroes. Your journey begins now. Join a community of thousands of players online as you traverse a breathtaking landscape on the back of a dragon as you explore the grandeur of a world designed by the seminal fantasy artist Keith Parkinson. Create and customize your character from 19 races and 15 professions. Combat fierce opponents with a groundbreaking dynamic combat system that forces you to react to your opponents as you tie together devastating combinations of attacks. The challenge awaits the boldest of heroes.
Just another fan here that felt i needed to share my own thoughts about this brilliant experience that will forever shatter your views of what mmo's should be, you will never complain again.
Now that smells of paid poster. It just reads like a marketing ad through and through.
You do realize that Sony was in fact caught red-handed having it's employee's post favorable reviews regarding their products in the past?
It amazes me that some people can't see the ethical violation that entails.
As VG has a connection with Sony, it's worth considering.
I miss DAoC
I find that extremely unlikely. Vanguard's only competitor is Horizons. Horizons players are the only ones naive enough to fall for the hype and continue playng for years in hopes that things will get better. And the Horizons people don't have enough money to hire marketers of any kind. (Yes, this was sarcasm, but seriously, I honestly don't believe any other MMOG feels threatened by Sigil at this point.)
Back to the topic at hand: Stealth marketers are easy to spot. Remember that they are not direct employees of the developer. They work for an independent company contracted by the developer. Thus they often have little experience with the game. They speak in vague generalities and usually have very few in-game anecdotes. They talk about how much 'fun' they are having and claim never to have experienced any of the bad things other people mention. In fact, they often completely ignore any mention of the bad stuff unless they have been directed to address such things, in which case they will often quote or paraphrase the developer's prior statements on the matter.
I find that extremely unlikely. Vanguard's only competitor is Horizons. Horizons players are the only ones naive enough to fall for the hype and continue playng for years in hopes that things will get better. And the Horizons people don't have enough money to hire marketers of any kind. (Yes, this was sarcasm, but seriously, I honestly don't believe any other MMOG feels threatened by Sigil at this point.)
Back to the topic at hand: Stealth marketers are easy to spot. Remember that they are not direct employees of the developer. They work for an independent company contracted by the developer. Thus they often have little experience with the game. They speak in vague generalities and usually have very few in-game anecdotes. They talk about how much 'fun' they are having and claim never to have experienced any of the bad things other people mention. In fact, they often completely ignore any mention of the bad stuff unless they have been directed to address such things, in which case they will often quote or paraphrase the developer's prior statements on the matter.
If I were a stealth marketer, I would come here and write what you just wrote.
LOL-----
There is no war in World of BoreCraft
Stop doing it for free, hold out for free monthly service at least. Didn't you learn anything in school?
It's been 17 years since I've gone to school , so if I did....I forgot. It only costs me on average 10 cents an hour to play ....I did learn a good value when saw one in school though. Vanguard is a good value for me.....mmorpg's in general are a good value for anyone for that matter.