either / or for me, cause regardless as people say "i don't want to be a clone" Skilled based just becomes a copy and paste after the best builds are created.
Well it depends really on the system each use..If you use skill points and professions then im all for Skill Points..Level based is usually static in nature meaning confined to one profession or class..In the case of SWG it had both and i prefer choices to static class.I like to mis and match and do what i want...So i want both with profession choices..But we wont see another system thats not a EqWoW clone for sometime..
I have no problem with any of these systems. I've had fun with them all.
For team games I prefer class systems as they are easy to define roles.
In that a tank is a tank ,a melee dps is a melee dps, a ranged dps is a ranged dps, a healer healers, a buffer buffs and everyone knows who does what just by looking at them.
And the dynamic is quick to learn and then you can do pick groups or find co-ordinated teamplay quite easily.
Thanks to those who post their opinion and giving me their reasons, now I get some idea to what some MMO gamers are looking for. Funny that although many chose skill-based, that game company are not going in that direction for most MMOs... (just some thought)
As to those who said about hybrid system and that you can have both skill-based and level-based: Yes, some love hybrids, but what I was asking was preference. But overall I understand that if done right, either of the choice and the hybrid system can and will be fun to play.
Again, thanks for those who posted.
Oh, almost forgot that maybe I should stay my preference:
I'm more Skill-based. Reasons are as follow:
1. Level-based are way over-done in the genre right now. Almost all my game starts with me being level 1 _(enter class here)_, and that in my opinion is getting bored.
2. Most Level-based system are not diversed enough in my mind. Again, this is just my opinion, and I don't think that everyone agrees with me.
3. Most Level-based skills are based on class/level, not on skill (i.e. I get warrior skill which worked with any weapon). I would like to see weapon-based skills. (i.e. rifle skill for rifle, sword skills for sword, etc...)
Skill based The problem with skill based games, which I think only one other poster mentioned, it's very hard to balance all possible combination of skills. Usually this means there are about 5 cookie-cutters running around...which are then your indirect 'classes'. Also, skillups are really just a bunch of little level ups. You gain one more notch than you had before. In the worst case scenario, you have one really uber skill combination which then everyone and their brother adheres to, so as to remain competative. This totally negates the whole 'I'm unique!' reason behind a skill system. The really funny thing is most people will agree UO is the best skill system we've seen so far, yet UO is where the tank-mage template pretty much was the thing to be for a very long time. People don't remember that though. Also, skill based games have a VERY hard time balancing mob vs player power. I've yet to see a skill based game with good PvE. UO - PvE sucked
EvE - lol
SWG - lololol It's hard enough to balance mob vs player power even in a structured level type game. There you might only have 8 classes. Now imagine a game with over 50 combat skills and a player can max say 10 of those. That's over 500 combinations to test and tweak. I predict an ample amount of nerf bat in the future of a game like that. While most players love the flexibility of a skill-based system, most of them also fail to realize how impossible it is to balance.
The above was said more or less perfectly. I agree with it.
Although skill based is nice in principle, it is horrible in practice. It tends to have bad balancing issues, and creates only a few (where at least classes can give you half a dozen) actual viable "skill classes."
The easiest thing to do is what most games actually do now. Make it class/level based but add some nice options and different builds within that structure.
Skill based The problem with skill based games, which I think only one other poster mentioned, it's very hard to balance all possible combination of skills. Usually this means there are about 5 cookie-cutters running around...which are then your indirect 'classes'. Also, skillups are really just a bunch of little level ups. You gain one more notch than you had before. In the worst case scenario, you have one really uber skill combination which then everyone and their brother adheres to, so as to remain competative. This totally negates the whole 'I'm unique!' reason behind a skill system. The really funny thing is most people will agree UO is the best skill system we've seen so far, yet UO is where the tank-mage template pretty much was the thing to be for a very long time. People don't remember that though. Also, skill based games have a VERY hard time balancing mob vs player power. I've yet to see a skill based game with good PvE. UO - PvE sucked
EvE - lol
SWG - lololol It's hard enough to balance mob vs player power even in a structured level type game. There you might only have 8 classes. Now imagine a game with over 50 combat skills and a player can max say 10 of those. That's over 500 combinations to test and tweak. I predict an ample amount of nerf bat in the future of a game like that. While most players love the flexibility of a skill-based system, most of them also fail to realize how impossible it is to balance.
The above was said more or less perfectly. I agree with it.
Although skill based is nice in principle, it is horrible in practice. It tends to have bad balancing issues, and creates only a few (where at least classes can give you half a dozen) actual viable "skill classes."
The easiest thing to do is what most games actually do now. Make it class/level based but add some nice options and different builds within that structure.
It's horrible in practice only because it is very hard to do. Yes, it tends to have balancing issues, but can anyone guess the reasons?
I asked some classmates, and they all like skill-based over level-based. One classmate said this and I pretty much agree since this is the issue when it comes to balancing. It's general role vs. situational. For example, in general you'll get a pretty definite role, and that's where the basic balance comes in play, but there are times when you run into situations where the basic balance doesn't work. (I can't recall the example he used, but that's the basic idea of it.) And some of these times it's pvp, and you get people saying that the other builds are too strong, but it may not be the case though.
Anyways, in truth, it isn't impossible to balance a skill-based system. It all depends on what people focus on (general role vs. situational.) There may be FOTM builds, but in the end, you can still function as you are. That's my opinion so if you don't agree, it's ok.
Like Darkfall (skill) or Infinity (no skill, no classes, no levels)
And like Nethervoid said about skills (he dont like it) "thats over 500 combinations to test and tweak"......and thats something bad????
Thats the meaning with skill system, i want 10000 of combinations to "test".
And why test?? You can play how i want, you know before you get the game what you wanna become..right? Then play that.
Classes and levels should never have been in MMOs from the beginning Its a strange system to help children get started, but a mature player need the freedom and challence to make up his own way.
The computer will never tell me how to play a fighter
Originally posted by daarco Classes and levels should never have been in MMOs from the beginning Its a strange system to help children get started, but a mature player need the freedom and challence to make up his own way.
I don't agree that the class system is specifically for children or people new to the genre. The class system came from tabletop RP games such as D & D. As was pointed out earlier, it has a lot of scope for team play - each player bringing different skills to the team. The problem with such a system in MMORPGs is that the whole mechanics are different. Table top games are played in a small group and people will often have different characters - and as they're sitting round the table with you, you know the player is the same person, but they're now using a different character. Most D & D players will have several or many characters that they use at one time or another, and often only for a particular campaign.
This can work out fine in MMOPRGs of a closer nature to the tabletop games, but for most of these games, making a new character will mean just going through the same scenarios and quests again, but with slightly different skills - and that has a pretty limited appeal.
Ideally, most players in MMORPGs will have just the one character, and if that's the case then they will want to be able to try out as many different skills as possible with that character, and not be limited in their options.
At the same time, having a system which allows someone to gain every skill eventually will mean that the older characters will all have the same abilities (unless it takes 10 years solid playing to get all the skills).
So, for me, I would prefer to have a fairly open skill based system, but with certain limits - so for example learning one skill prevents you from learning a certain other skill. This would mean that players will always have need of eachother's skills.
Probably the best system I've seen of this is what is being called a "hybred" - it seems to me that we're only calling it that because we first defined the two systems (and I would no more call it a hybred than calling a middle of the road politican a hybred of communist and capitalist). Anyway it works as follows:
All players have a certain number of skill trees available to everyone. Each of those can be advanced in, gaining a variety of skills associated with that tree. (For example Farming/Labouring tree with skills for resource gathering - at higher levels you get to be able to harvest harder or rarer resources).
Then there are specialist skill trees which you can only gain by joining a certain guild or class. A character can only be in one class at a time, but can leave and join another (but loses the specialist skills by doing that). These classes will provide certain crafting skills and combat skills unique to that class.
Please, please, please take a look at Anarchy-Online, because they did it perfectly! It's a hybrid system where you have classes and levels but you gain an x-amount of skillpoints each level which you can allocate on the various (100+) Skills. How much points you have to use to raise a skill is dependent of your class, so it is possible to make a (e.g.) ranged tank, but it's more skillpoint intensive then other builds. Also each item is skill dependent. So you can equip a ranged class with a melee weapon, but it will be more skillpoint intensive. This is the best system i ever come across and i played a few MMORPG's in the past ;-)
While skill based is appealing when it works it comes with some serious baggage.
- It’s hard to balance, so you end up with a handful of “good builds” that everyone uses.
- If steps are taken to avoid builds being overpowered people tend to be as role limited as they are in class based games. While gamers may like the ability to do everything from a game design this is undesirable
- Unless players are funneled towards certain builds it’s very easy for them to gimp themselves, again this makes the difference between skill based and level based rather moot.
- *this is the important one* it’s very difficult to design content when you don’t know what types of abilities a group will have access to. The result is that PvE content tends to be week in a skill based games. This is less of a factor in PvP games which, so it’s no surprise this is where skill based games have had the most success.
Basically, while skill based looks good on paper the advantages often disappear when you actually get into the details of implementing it. Once all the balance and content issues are dealt with you end up with a game that has no clear advantage over a level based game but requires more development work to create and maintain.
If you are looking for more of a PvP then PvE a skill based game can shine because these limitations are not as significant. Given that I generally prefer PvE which benefits from the structure of a class based game, so for me class based tends to work out better in practice.
I think skill-based requires you to know your part more than level-based... You would have to train skill points correctly which requires a knowledge of the game/environment/benefits derived from training various skills.
Hybrid does sound good though...
I miss multi-classing... =( I think it should be re-introduced... Once you reach level cap you can start another class, but have limited abilities between the two.
I want something marginally challenging with character development... not horribly confusing, but at least something that takes some consideration.
I think to some degree this topic has been covered before in the discussion, but I want to know the reason behind everyone's choice, so here it is again (I'm a GSP student in DeVry, and this is basically what I'll use to get some idea to help me shape my own game idea.) Which would you prefer in your MMO, and why? Skill-based: No preset class and stats, and no character level. You just learn the skill, and improve it by keep using it and/or xp collection to get to the next skill level. You can choose your own role in group combat and solo combat. Level-based: With preset class and stats, and character level. You will know your role better, but you can't really change your role at all. I want to know the reason for the choices you guys have, so keep them coming.
Skill based, BUT NOT INCREASE WITH USE. I hate systems where you have to shoot your bow 8 million times to increase your bow skill, even if it makes no sense to use your bow, but just because you want to increase the skill.
I'll take skill points instead and let me spend them on what skills I want to buy.
I also want caps on skills. Therefore, you cannot be a "tank mage" and collect all the nuke skills, all the tank skills, and all the healing skills. You have to decide if you want to have the best offensive spells in the game OR the best Healing spells in the game, because the cap doesn't let you spend enough points to be both. However, you can decide whether to specialize, or be a jack of all trades but master of none, or just give your character some uniqueness by picking a few odd skills.
I'd like to see a system like GURPS. I think it would be fun if you could implement a lot of skills from the list:
my whole thing is that the "excuses" on why skill based games don't work can really be applied to level/class based games.
"they are hard to balance ... "
I've played WoW, I have played EQ2, I have played DAOC .... and in all those game there were constant nerfs and buffs to classes. Which tells me that even class/level based games are also hard to balance, or maybe that we as gamer should not expect "Perfect balance".
"people pick the flavor of the month ... "
again every game i have played from EQ1 to WoW has this happen. As soon as a class is deemed powerful, people flock to it. I remember playing DAOC when Berserkers were "overpowered", I decided to roll a Warrior to try out midgard and what did i see, dozens and dozens of "new" zerkers. in EQ2 there are tons of swashbucklers, Necro's and Conjurors, again players showing that they will pick the FOTM. Thats the players issue not the design of the game, the skilless always want to pick the overpowered class or spec.
the only one i may agree with is ...
"PVE is hard to do ..."
but even this is a cop out , I saw some of the larger mobs in SWG were still tough even with a skill based game. The Deathwatch Bunker was TOUGH (pre-nge) even with Jedi in the group. So i think it can be done.
So if you couldn't tell i am a huge advocate of skill based games, I am tired as hell of predetermined classes, god forbid people should have to put some thought into what they are picking and if it will work together. I love the uniqueness that it brings as I am not a player that feels the need to be uber. I like designing a class that compliments my playstyle.
For example in SWG i was a rifleman/creature handler, was it the most uber spec? not at all but it was fun as hell to play and gave me that feeling of being a lone gunman.
$OE lies list http://www.rlmmo.com/viewtopic.php?t=424&start=0 " And I don't want to hear anything about "I don't believe in vampires" because *I* don't believe in vampires, but I believe in my own two eyes, and what *I* saw is ******* vampires! "
If I had to choose, I would probably go with the hybrid. Though I don't think it really matters anyway, a linear built game is linear, whether its level based or skill based. Plus I think people make too much of a deal of it, it isn’t like dumping a few points into a useless or crappy skill ever made me feel unique in a game.
I did a own search a month ago, it turned out that skill based is more common in Europe and level based in USA.
Me beeing from sweden didnt heard of levels before i was almost 25 years old.
So levels is the weirdest thing possibly. I dont understand how they could work in a game?? I did try to play WoW, but couldent understand why i couldent do my own character. People tent to say it help you know your part?? Why would i wanna know my or anybody elses part?? This sound a little bit as a carebear to me.
So skill is the only way i can play MMO.
So, haven't played many major MMORPG's then have you? Most are level based these days....
Just trying to live long enough to play a new, released MMORPG, playing New Worlds atm
Fools find no pleasure in understanding but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV
Don't just play games, inhabit virtual worlds™
"This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon
I personally like skill based, but it just isn't a sound solution for a MMORPG from a development prespective. Rather then having to test 6-10 classes against each other in every aspect of the game to make sure their is balance, they now have to test hundreds of templetes against each other to make sure they all balance out.
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I like pie !
Well it depends really on the system each use..If you use skill points and professions then im all for Skill Points..Level based is usually static in nature meaning confined to one profession or class..In the case of SWG it had both and i prefer choices to static class.I like to mis and match and do what i want...So i want both with profession choices..But we wont see another system thats not a EqWoW clone for sometime..
I have no problem with any of these systems. I've had fun with them all.
For team games I prefer class systems as they are easy to define roles.
In that a tank is a tank ,a melee dps is a melee dps, a ranged dps is a ranged dps, a healer healers, a buffer buffs and everyone knows who does what just by looking at them.
And the dynamic is quick to learn and then you can do pick groups or find co-ordinated teamplay quite easily.
Thanks to those who post their opinion and giving me their reasons, now I get some idea to what some MMO gamers are looking for. Funny that although many chose skill-based, that game company are not going in that direction for most MMOs... (just some thought)
As to those who said about hybrid system and that you can have both skill-based and level-based: Yes, some love hybrids, but what I was asking was preference. But overall I understand that if done right, either of the choice and the hybrid system can and will be fun to play.
Again, thanks for those who posted.
Oh, almost forgot that maybe I should stay my preference:
I'm more Skill-based. Reasons are as follow:
1. Level-based are way over-done in the genre right now. Almost all my game starts with me being level 1 _(enter class here)_, and that in my opinion is getting bored.
2. Most Level-based system are not diversed enough in my mind. Again, this is just my opinion, and I don't think that everyone agrees with me.
3. Most Level-based skills are based on class/level, not on skill (i.e. I get warrior skill which worked with any weapon). I would like to see weapon-based skills. (i.e. rifle skill for rifle, sword skills for sword, etc...)
Current MMO: FFXIV:ARR
Past MMO: Way too many (P2P and F2P)
The above was said more or less perfectly. I agree with it.
Although skill based is nice in principle, it is horrible in practice. It tends to have bad balancing issues, and creates only a few (where at least classes can give you half a dozen) actual viable "skill classes."
The easiest thing to do is what most games actually do now. Make it class/level based but add some nice options and different builds within that structure.
The above was said more or less perfectly. I agree with it.
Although skill based is nice in principle, it is horrible in practice. It tends to have bad balancing issues, and creates only a few (where at least classes can give you half a dozen) actual viable "skill classes."
The easiest thing to do is what most games actually do now. Make it class/level based but add some nice options and different builds within that structure.
It's horrible in practice only because it is very hard to do. Yes, it tends to have balancing issues, but can anyone guess the reasons?
I asked some classmates, and they all like skill-based over level-based. One classmate said this and I pretty much agree since this is the issue when it comes to balancing. It's general role vs. situational. For example, in general you'll get a pretty definite role, and that's where the basic balance comes in play, but there are times when you run into situations where the basic balance doesn't work. (I can't recall the example he used, but that's the basic idea of it.) And some of these times it's pvp, and you get people saying that the other builds are too strong, but it may not be the case though.
Anyways, in truth, it isn't impossible to balance a skill-based system. It all depends on what people focus on (general role vs. situational.) There may be FOTM builds, but in the end, you can still function as you are. That's my opinion so if you don't agree, it's ok.
Current MMO: FFXIV:ARR
Past MMO: Way too many (P2P and F2P)
Skill based or nothing, thats the best.
Like Darkfall (skill) or Infinity (no skill, no classes, no levels)
And like Nethervoid said about skills (he dont like it) "thats over 500 combinations to test and tweak"......and thats something bad????
Thats the meaning with skill system, i want 10000 of combinations to "test".
And why test??
You can play how i want, you know before you get the game what you wanna become..right? Then play that.
Classes and levels should never have been in MMOs from the beginning
Its a strange system to help children get started, but a mature player need the freedom and challence to make up his own way.
The computer will never tell me how to play a fighter
I don't agree that the class system is specifically for children or people new to the genre. The class system came from tabletop RP games such as D & D. As was pointed out earlier, it has a lot of scope for team play - each player bringing different skills to the team. The problem with such a system in MMORPGs is that the whole mechanics are different. Table top games are played in a small group and people will often have different characters - and as they're sitting round the table with you, you know the player is the same person, but they're now using a different character. Most D & D players will have several or many characters that they use at one time or another, and often only for a particular campaign.
This can work out fine in MMOPRGs of a closer nature to the tabletop games, but for most of these games, making a new character will mean just going through the same scenarios and quests again, but with slightly different skills - and that has a pretty limited appeal.
Ideally, most players in MMORPGs will have just the one character, and if that's the case then they will want to be able to try out as many different skills as possible with that character, and not be limited in their options.
At the same time, having a system which allows someone to gain every skill eventually will mean that the older characters will all have the same abilities (unless it takes 10 years solid playing to get all the skills).
So, for me, I would prefer to have a fairly open skill based system, but with certain limits - so for example learning one skill prevents you from learning a certain other skill. This would mean that players will always have need of eachother's skills.
Probably the best system I've seen of this is what is being called a "hybred" - it seems to me that we're only calling it that because we first defined the two systems (and I would no more call it a hybred than calling a middle of the road politican a hybred of communist and capitalist). Anyway it works as follows:
All players have a certain number of skill trees available to everyone. Each of those can be advanced in, gaining a variety of skills associated with that tree. (For example Farming/Labouring tree with skills for resource gathering - at higher levels you get to be able to harvest harder or rarer resources).
Then there are specialist skill trees which you can only gain by joining a certain guild or class. A character can only be in one class at a time, but can leave and join another (but loses the specialist skills by doing that). These classes will provide certain crafting skills and combat skills unique to that class.
------------------------------------------------------
Do I ever sleep?
Please, please, please take a look at Anarchy-Online, because they did it perfectly!
It's a hybrid system where you have classes and levels but you gain an x-amount of skillpoints each level which you can allocate on the various (100+) Skills. How much points you have to use to raise a skill is dependent of your class, so it is possible to make a (e.g.) ranged tank, but it's more skillpoint intensive then other builds. Also each item is skill dependent. So you can equip a ranged class with a melee weapon, but it will be more skillpoint intensive.
This is the best system i ever come across and i played a few MMORPG's in the past ;-)
My theme song.
Hybrid does sound good though...
I miss multi-classing... =( I think it should be re-introduced... Once you reach level cap you can start another class, but have limited abilities between the two.
I want something marginally challenging with character development... not horribly confusing, but at least something that takes some consideration.
Skill based, BUT NOT INCREASE WITH USE. I hate systems where you have to shoot your bow 8 million times to increase your bow skill, even if it makes no sense to use your bow, but just because you want to increase the skill.
I'll take skill points instead and let me spend them on what skills I want to buy.
I also want caps on skills. Therefore, you cannot be a "tank mage" and collect all the nuke skills, all the tank skills, and all the healing skills. You have to decide if you want to have the best offensive spells in the game OR the best Healing spells in the game, because the cap doesn't let you spend enough points to be both. However, you can decide whether to specialize, or be a jack of all trades but master of none, or just give your character some uniqueness by picking a few odd skills.
I'd like to see a system like GURPS. I think it would be fun if you could implement a lot of skills from the list:
You can download the Gurps Lite book with a list of skills free here.
my whole thing is that the "excuses" on why skill based games don't work can really be applied to level/class based games.
"they are hard to balance ... "
I've played WoW, I have played EQ2, I have played DAOC .... and in all those game there were constant nerfs and buffs to classes. Which tells me that even class/level based games are also hard to balance, or maybe that we as gamer should not expect "Perfect balance".
"people pick the flavor of the month ... "
again every game i have played from EQ1 to WoW has this happen. As soon as a class is deemed powerful, people flock to it. I remember playing DAOC when Berserkers were "overpowered", I decided to roll a Warrior to try out midgard and what did i see, dozens and dozens of "new" zerkers. in EQ2 there are tons of swashbucklers, Necro's and Conjurors, again players showing that they will pick the FOTM. Thats the players issue not the design of the game, the skilless always want to pick the overpowered class or spec.
the only one i may agree with is ...
"PVE is hard to do ..."
but even this is a cop out , I saw some of the larger mobs in SWG were still tough even with a skill based game. The Deathwatch Bunker was TOUGH (pre-nge) even with Jedi in the group. So i think it can be done.
So if you couldn't tell i am a huge advocate of skill based games, I am tired as hell of predetermined classes, god forbid people should have to put some thought into what they are picking and if it will work together. I love the uniqueness that it brings as I am not a player that feels the need to be uber. I like designing a class that compliments my playstyle.
For example in SWG i was a rifleman/creature handler, was it the most uber spec? not at all but it was fun as hell to play and gave me that feeling of being a lone gunman.
I have written many long posts here about why so I am not going to get into it. Others have already said most of what needs to be said.
Currently Playing: Dungeons and Dragons Online.
Sig image Pending
Still in: A couple Betas
$OE lies list
http://www.rlmmo.com/viewtopic.php?t=424&start=0
"
And I don't want to hear anything about "I don't believe in vampires" because *I* don't believe in vampires, but I believe in my own two eyes, and what *I* saw is ******* vampires! "
My vote goes for a skill based system!
"True friends stab you in the front." | Oscar Wilde
"I need to finish" - Christian Wolff: The Accountant
Just trying to live long enough to play a new, released MMORPG, playing New Worlds atm
Fools find no pleasure in understanding but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV
Don't just play games, inhabit virtual worlds™
"This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon
I personally like skill based, but it just isn't a sound solution for a MMORPG from a development prespective. Rather then having to test 6-10 classes against each other in every aspect of the game to make sure their is balance, they now have to test hundreds of templetes against each other to make sure they all balance out.