I played GSIII for around six months, then switched to DR right around when it went to Beta on AOL. I played that for several years, but only off and on for the last couple until 2005-ish.
I have played many other online games as well.
While every game company overhypes quite a bit, Simutronics is by far the worst company I have ever seen. They routinely promise new systems and upgrades, discuss them at great length, get everyone in a frenzy and then... years pass and nothing happens. They have gone so far as to create web pages and web sites about some of these systems such as ALAE and Bloodlust. And in some cases listed tons of new things with specific dates that they left on web pages until long after those specific dates had passed with only a token percentage completed.
Bugs abounded. Systems that are released are rarely finished. There were shops and areas with signposts all over the place in DR saying "opening soon" that never did or else took years to open or erased.
GS, despite its unfinished systems and areas, was probably the best MUD or one of the best in its day but the bar has been raised. It took a long time for it to develop into a semi-polished, developed world system. Far too long.
DR, at release, was fairly horrible; the combat system messaging was way off, the combat system itself bears little relation to the one in use last time I played (every combat verb behaves differently now, armor is different, weapons stats and advantages are different, combat stats are different). The skill system was revamped several times. It took several years for crafting to be added, something I remember being promised "soon" in the second barbarian guild development meeting shortly after beta closed. It's sad because some people did devote massive amounts of time for little or no pay to make those games/systems work, and parts of them do, but the hype was just too much to come close to matching.
Alliance of Heroes was Simu's big chance to get on the map. They got licensing and advertising from a successful TV franchise but they produced it the same way they did DR. The game at release was a sloppy shell and bears little resemblance to the systems that they tried to entice us to 'try again' after the player base dwindled to sub-100 a few months later.
Simu was successful initially because they built a playerbase when AOL and Genie were the only online commercial game providers; there literally wasn't any real competition and AOL steered you right to them if you hit keyword: games.
I've been hearing about HJ since 1999. There was even an avi floating around of someone mounting and flying a dragon. Ign gave them a slot on their forums and a web page for a few years. Eventually, Zoha (forgot his real name) came to those boards and admitted that not much had been done for awhile but he gave us a spiel about "not giving up" and said things were in the works... And then we got the same thing again a couple years ago from the latest crew, but with more fanfare.
Maybe HJ will come out some day... maybe Simu will grow up. I certainly like DR's current combat system more than I do any other MMORPG's and hope to see it or something like it in a graphical game some day. But I'm not holding my breath.
I wouldn't call it vaporware. But I think it will be important to them to release some useful amounts of information before Age of Conan is released. As of now many players (myself included) are looking towards AoC as it's actually within reach, as opposed to HJ which never seem to make any progress. I'm sure it does, but please, keep us updated and feed us with info, screens and teasers!
I suppose those pesky screenshots are all fakes, eh? lol
No one said it was fake, its in question where the companies focus is. Most believe they have become more interested in promoting and selling the engine over developing the game.
I suppose those pesky screenshots are all fakes, eh? lol
No one said it was fake, its in question where the companies focus is. Most believe they have become more interested in promoting and selling the engine over developing the game.
Yeah... I wish they would work just a little bit more on the game though. Their ideas would make HJ a pretty unique game. LOTRO and HJ (when it is released) will be my two MMOs.
Currently: Playing EVE Online Previous: FFXI, Dragonrealms, sad little stint in WOWland. Awaiting: Fallen Earth, Hero''s Journey, Tabula Rasa, Age of Conan.
Well if it doesnt come out at least you will be using the engine in a Bioware game in 2010?
Perhaps, but a game that's been hyped since 2005, and that only comes out in engine form by 2010, is pretty much the textbook definition of Vaporware ( en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vaporware ).
I mean after all, having been announced in 1997 (!), "Duke Nukem Forever" is supposedly "still in development" and "will come out some day", but it's been 10 years. Even if DNF some day does get released (which most people believe it never will at this point), it's still Vaporware in the sense that the hype and announcements and such for the game were WAY premature.
The same thing is true here. They clearly got WAY ahead of themselves on the hype for this game, posting screenshots and other stuff that indicated the game was much further along than it ever really has been.
The game was fairly far along. The tools were done. Alot of the mechanics of the game finished and they were making the quests and world. The simple fact is unlike Dnukem, this game has had fully playable demos. We all saw the hype during E3. That was really before they realized how well the engine was going to sale. So now I imagine there totally caught off guard. There making money.
So in the end is it any loss to them to settle that business first then return to HJ. Even if HJ failed, they got paid.
Well if it doesnt come out at least you will be using the engine in a Bioware game in 2010?
Perhaps, but a game that's been hyped since 2005, and that only comes out in engine form by 2010, is pretty much the textbook definition of Vaporware ( en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vaporware )
Thats fine but you have to wait until 2010 before you can call it vaporware.
And since the game was shown last year at E3, I dont think a hiatus on news by the developers justifies calling the game Vaporware.
Not sure how often they post at their official forums.
Allow me to be the first to call the original poster an impatient person
Eh, I see the game being launched. Being similar to what they said it would be. Not having the skill to back it up and keep it up. Then bamf, Horizons all over again. I'm glad BioWare picked up the engine.
Now if Simu would start talking about launching HJ2 on the directx 10 or 11 format.. I'd see something worth looking forward to again.
I kill other players because they're smarter than AI, sometimes.
Well, I'll offer my "opinion." Hero's Journey is not vaporware. Now, I might be biased, but getting to work with it every day, I can see clearly it is not "vapor." Yes, it's been delayed in light of engine advancement and sale, which is frustrating for me and my offsite brethren, but it is necessary for the project.
Simutronics had some obvious obstacles to overcome in terms of funding a game of this magnitude. It being nothing like what they've made so far, and them being a pretty small development house. So, they license their engine and provide funding with the means they had. It seems to be working so far.
The response has been great from what I've heard, and seen, from GDC. Hopefully I'll attend GDC this year as well, we'll see. Last year a lot of people asked me about the GAME Hero's Journey, mostly the fan types who got into the expo floor. The rest of the folks were developers interested in the toolset (Bioware was in the booth forever, as was Mythic and some other hotshots I can't remember). Hands down, it was the best middle-ware solution in the place, and there were 2 or 3 other major projects present, if I recall.
Anyway, it's a very valid concern you have that the game simply will not ship. I, of course, can't say yes or no for sure; I can only offer my honest opinion. That is, it may be later than we hoped for, but it will still find its way to fans.
Extremely disapointing posts here. If it is a small studio I have a hard time imagining this game as anything other than a boon doggle, taking forever to be released if ever, and unable to provide the necessary support for a truly successful game. Just an impression and not said with any kind of satisfaction.
I'd be thrilled if I was mistaken...
----------------------- Past MMOs- Planetside, WoW. Current MMO: Current Games: L4D, Skyrim Tried- ATITD, EQ2, SoR, Vanguard,SL,LOTRO,SotNW,SWTOR. Anticipating- GW2, Planetside2
I still think they should go back to doing what has worked for them with their text-based games and get a small working and 99% unblemished by serious bugs game world together with the basic combat/adventure systems and a whole lot of roleplaying support in place and launch from there. People used to pay almost $10 an hour on GEnie during prime time to play the earliest versions of Gemstone, and we’re talking about a MUD that at that time had a very small amount of rooms and very rudimentary systems compared to the massive world and complexity of the game today.
Obviously, taking this route would SEEM to be a far departure from the typical MMORPG launch where they supposedly have tried to get as close to ‘finished’ a product as they could in their development window (which almost never actually happens in this industry, re: numerous ‘complete’ MMORPG’s like Vanguard that have launched riddled with bugs), but doing it the other way has worked like a charm for Simutronics in the past and, as noted, few non-Blizzard products ever actually end up launching after they’re well and truly “done” anyway so it’d be nothing truly new.
I’d be interested to know how much more expensive and hardware intensive running graphical game servers is than running text-based game servers? I’ve always assumed ‘much more so’, but can recall a few times reading comments from developers that insisted there wasn’t too much difference. If it is true that there isn’t much difference, then launching a small but working game now and just continuing development through continual free patches over time might not be a bad idea. They could run as many servers as was profitable, even if the crowd of players was very small due to the style of launch, and then slowly add more servers as the game content grew over time.
A great deal of Hero’s Journey content is *already* being developed by volunteers, so there is no cost impact there. Having a small but rabidly dedicated community (a lot of which would probably come from the small but rabidly dedicated communities of their MUDs) would be helpful too. It’s part of what ended up making Gemstone great as the game grew around and beyond that initial ‘golden age’ community that established itself in the early days.
If development continues at a steady and visible pace and remains at a high level of quality, word of mouth will spread and more and more players will get interested. Simutronics has dominated the MUD industry for two decades because their text-based games were light years removed from anything else out there. While Blizzard similarly dominates the graphical industry these days for similar reasons, a product like Hero’s Journey with high production values and polish could be positioned to really succeed where games like Vanguard are *falling short.
* note that my suggestion that they’re falling short is a matter of opinion and perspective, and mostly refers to how Blizzard commands close to ten million subscribers while almost every other game out there struggles to maintain two hundred to three hundred thousand subscribers. At today’s subscription rates, I’m fairly certain any title that can claim a couple hundred thousand subscribers is a financial success, but is certainly no match for the 800 pound gorilla.
Just want to make one point, licensing your own "state of the art" engine to a competitor is definitely a sign of financial / funding problem. There is NO justification whatsoever to give the engine your flagship product will be based on, to a competition. Essentially you are allowing the competitor to make a product just as good(and with bioware, you bet they will make it good), to compete with yourself. Even more troubling is your own product has not been released yet, and this licensing will DELAY it further giving even a bigger advantage to bioware. To me it's all signs of desparation for funding, i mean short of project cancellation i dont think any company would choose to give away their top secret core asset.
You mean like id (Quake, Doom), Valve (Half Life) and Epic (Unreal) are in such financial trouble? These are three of the most successful and profitable gaming companies out there and most of that money comes from licensing out their engine and tools.
1) None of those companies licensed the engines before their own games were released.
2) Those are not mmorpgs but 3d shooters with no monthly subscription, their financial models are very different.
- After a 3d shooter is released, majority of the copies will be sold within the first couple months. The company then license the engine out to cash in.
- After a mmorpg is released, majority of the income will be from monthly subscriptions for years to come. And if you license your own engine out to the competition even before the game is released, you are beating yourself over the head with a hammer, as a competition using the same engine (provided it's a good engine) will directly affect your bottomline long term.
3) It's common sense, only reason simu would license their engines out is because lack of funding. Either give the engine to the competition or face project cancellation. Their GMs pretty much confirmed the financial problems the company is having/had.
4) By comparing 3d shooter with mmorpg engine licensing, it showed your complete lack of understanding of the discussion.
[quote]
I say the following with all sincerity, STOP playing games and go to business school! You have NO clue what your talking about! Zero.
Jonny
[/quote]
Why dont you provide a "clue" then instead of just offering those meaningless jabs. STOP playing games and go to school, any school..period.
Maybe then you will stop being such a fanboy lemming and actually have the ability to form your own thought process and think about why simu would put their own game(their highest priority project) on hold, to license out their flagship engine to a direct competition....
Just want to make one point, licensing your own "state of the art" engine to a competitor is definitely a sign of financial / funding problem. There is NO justification whatsoever to give the engine your flagship product will be based on, to a competition. Essentially you are allowing the competitor to make a product just as good(and with bioware, you bet they will make it good), to compete with yourself. Even more troubling is your own product has not been released yet, and this licensing will DELAY it further giving even a bigger advantage to bioware. To me it's all signs of desparation for funding, i mean short of project cancellation i dont think any company would choose to give away their top secret core asset.
You mean like id (Quake, Doom), Valve (Half Life) and Epic (Unreal) are in such financial trouble? These are three of the most successful and profitable gaming companies out there and most of that money comes from licensing out their engine and tools.
1) None of those companies licensed the engines before their own games were released.
Wrong. Unreal 3 engine has been used in several games already. Still no Unreal 3 or Unreal Tournament update on the engine.
7: Their volunteer system works very, very well. Sort of. Anyway, works just as well as hiring people because you get people who genuinely love the game, as opposed to codeslaves that just work for a paycheck.
8: Being a GM is not a second job. People quit when real life intrudes too much, part of being a volunteer.
I'm going to step in on this one... and yes, it's been awhile since I posted here.
I'm a prime example of this. I'm an electrical engineer with a 9-5 (more like 6 to 6) job. When a large project comes up, I have to take a step back from HJ and do what needs to be done to keep the home fires burning.
My current large project is about 3/4 complete... but there is still a ways to go.
The good news is, my place within Simu is there when I can find the time to return. That's the nice thing about being part of it. They know real life and your family are most important and never stand in the way.
As of now, I've hit my 8 year mark as being a GM with Simutronics. And I look forward to MANY more years with them. They are an amazing group of people, all very talented... and all I am proud to call friends.
I am also chomping at the bit to be able to get back into it.
Yet once again someone stated an ignorant statement. I recently contacted Tom Zelinski about his "producer" of HJ. Dude, do YOUR HOMEWORK. OR: Perhaps you can 'quote' me your 'illustrious source' regarding this. Nah, never mind. This a well-due flame and deservidly so. Watch My LIPS: ZelinskiwasNEVER EVER NEVER was a PRODUCER for Heroes Journey. Where the HELL did you get THIS little nugget of Information ?? Ignorance in this Thread astounds me. M
I don't think ignorance astounded you, by the wicked use of BBML it looked to inspire.
HJ will be produced, but it won't be the super game as previously advertised. Fanboi for it if ya want. It worked for Vanguard and I hope they do well for many years to come.
I kill other players because they're smarter than AI, sometimes.
Being a former designer for Simutronic's Hero Journey, I agree with the OP. It was a huge project about 2yrs ago, I'm sure there is still development but like me and most others we got laid-off when they needed to down-size because they realized they couldn't pay everyone. Instead they started to sell the engine itself, which was a great idea to keep the development going, but that wasn't the purpose. I see Hero's Journey only being a tech demo to the engine and nothing else, nothing big has been done since I was forced out a yr and a half ago.
Interesting...seeing as how we haven't had any layoffs since...hrm...97? 96?
I'm so very sorry... I apologize for the so very 'colorful' commentary. Mea Maxima Culpa.
However, you still don't know who/when/where/what personnel were Producers of Heroes Journey.
From the very beginning of the original HJ Producers & Planners to the Present Day (3/21/07), Tom Zelinski has never been an HJ Producer. Now, if you wish to quote your source for this "FanBoy" information of yours, or, even merely hint at your source. I would be very very interested.
I don't see the big deal here. I mean this isn't the first game to be pushed back past it's scheduled release. How many console games get pushed back months, even a year past when they were supposed to be launched and those are games that have very limited content. How long did it take for Blizzard to develop WoW and that game doesn't have anywhere near the detail or depth that HJ is going to have.
I understand why Simu is going about it the way that they are. With so many MMO's out there, they have to make sure they get it right the first time. Remember, they're a small company and they don't have the name recognition to pull people in like SOE, Blizzard or Square. When they release HJ is has to be great in order to seperate itself from the hundreds of other MMO's out there. It's really not a bad thing if you think about it that they're waiting until 08 to release HJ. This year LoTR's and WAR are both going to launch so that would be some pretty stiff competition, even though LoTR is nothing more than a clone of WoW. Launching HJ in 08 will allow HJ to be the biggest MMO debuting that year, if I'm not mistaken.
The only reason that people think this is vaporware is because Simu stopped giving us updates. I've said before that I think that is a bad move as I think it would be in their best intrest to put out as much pub about the game as possible, even if they're not giving us all the juicy details. Again, because they are a small company, they need to do everything they can to seperate their game from the big names out there which means that marketing is just as important as creating a great game. I hope now that they've finished licensing their engine, they will be able to get back to putting the game back on the map. Sites like MMORPG.com have done a great job of giving this game much needed attention and Simu needs to continue to take advantage of this free press. I think it would be great if Simu gave MMORPG.com an exclusive video clip to post. It doesn't have to be too revealing but at least it would let everyone see something about how the game has progressed and hopefully renew the hype and anticipation that this game had a year ago.
I know this is an unpopular opinion. No doubt I will be reviled for offering it. I don't blame you really, because I had high hopes and expectations for this title too.
Cool, you're free to have your own opinion.
But seriously, all the signs are there:
1. It's been in development for a loooooong time. Some have said 12 years. Too long to be taken seriously anymore.
The original Hero's Journey was canceled. The concept itself was shelved for another day. The current incarnation has been in development for around 3 years from what we can tell.
2. Beta time frames have been offered and retreated from, with no new ones given now.
This has happened with numerous games in the past that have successfully launched or will launch(Lord of the Rings Online for example). Even then, being in beta isn't always an indicative sign that a game will release. Some games have been canceled during the beta process (WISH, Dragon Empires).
3. It has a projected launch period that is pure fiction. There is no way on Earth this game launches this year.
I don't remember Simutronics ever outlining a "launch period". Even then, this industry is known to miss dates and projected timelines(Tabula Rasa, Lord of the Rings Online).
4. They had a big ad campaign with lots of articles, etc., at a time when the game was nowhere near beta, but that corresponded with the sale of the Hero engine.
This is common within this industry and the game industry in general. Horizons and Lord of the Rings Onlnie both went through "media blackouts" at some point. Even then, whats the point of marketing a game that isn't even ready for beta yet?
5. The game has gone dark in terms of updates, etc. after the sale of the Hero engine.
6. Did I mention they sold a license of a proprietary engine BEFORE they launched their own game using it?
Didn't Valve and Epic do the same thing with their proprietary engines? I assume Bioware wouldn't have bought it unless it was worth the investment(i.e. it was functional and working). Epic had been licensing UE3 like crazy before the even finished development on Gears of War. Vampire: Bloodlines was built using the Source engine and was held off from releasing until Valve was close to finishing HL2. Despite these being "FPS engines", they are both being used in MMO development.
7. They have a highly unorthodox hiring system of "employees", taking people off message boards and having them work remotely for free (or upon future promises).
Unorthodox? Yes. Tell-tale sign of vaporware? No. I've personally looked into applying but never have due to my personal hectic schedule. It seemed pretty clear the work you're applying for is strictly "volunteer". The experience and opportunity alone would be worth the time and effort.
8. They don't seem to be able to keep their employees, since they are always looking for new ones.
Speculative.
9. Most importantly, they obviously don't have the financing needed to make a game this expensive, and after a very long time no one has stepped up to provide that financing or partner with them.
Are they even looking for financing?
10. There isn't now, nor will there ever be, enough income from a MUDD to fund a project of this magnitude, so they can't go it alone.
Speculative. We neither do not know how much money Simutronics gets from its numerous MUDs nor do we know what their financial situation is like. We can assume they are bringing in money from MUDs and Hero Engine licensing.
11. They have made very little progress from one trade show to the next in terms of the state of the "game."
I have seen the difference between trade show to trade show, I disagree.
12. They admittedly don't have the time or resources to update their website! If they can't manage that, how are they going to produce something as huge as an mmo?
Mind posting where you saw this?
This is Mourning all over again. This game will never launch. If it does, I will apologize profusely, but I don't ever expect to have to make good on that promise. Expect an announcement this year that the game is being shelved.
Good job for attempting to call Simutronics out! Even if you're right, I see it as disrespectful to the developer. If you truly supported Hero's Journey, you would at least be attempting be a part of its fan community.
Originally posted by rwyan If you truly supported Hero's Journey, you would at least be attempting be a part of its fan community.
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I assume that people posting here, since they have not played the game would like to see it in action and hope it will live up to it's self proclaimed hype. The complaints are because of expectations that have been raised but not met. Clearly this is a developer problem. As to whether we'll get a robust MMO or a new MMO at all remains to be seen. In similiar situations in the past (not the same) I've found it best not to get excited about it, better yet forget about it until you see that the beta is about to roll.
----------------------- Past MMOs- Planetside, WoW. Current MMO: Current Games: L4D, Skyrim Tried- ATITD, EQ2, SoR, Vanguard,SL,LOTRO,SotNW,SWTOR. Anticipating- GW2, Planetside2
If you truly supported Hero's Journey, you would at least be attempting be a part of its fan community.
The other points you made, we can just agree to disagree. But I will respond to this one. This post, btw, is not directed at you, but at the concept I quoted.
I am not here to "support" this or any other game's development team or some nebulous concept of community. I am a consumer who plays videogames. I try to find good ones to play. Some have been great, others major disappointments. I don't think of the Devs as my buddy. I'm not trying to ingratiate myself to them, get a job with them, or get into their beta. My interest is purely will this be a game I can play or not, and if I can play it will it be any good? Right now, from where I am sitting, it looks like it would have been good but will never be launched, which is why I posted.
I am tired of all the sycophants following computer programers around like they are rock stars. They're not. It does the market for these games a huge disservice as game after game is released as an incomplete, underdeveloped, buggy piece of crap and still people shell out good money and laud the designers. I can think of no group of consumers more taken advantage of and abused than mmorpg players, and they are the author of their own harm.
In other cases (like I believe this one), they just use and manipulate their "fans" as evidence of the value and desirability of their engine, then make money off the engine and give the "fans" nothing. I am not a consumer of game engines and could care less how many copies of it Simu sells. That is doing jack for me. I frequent these boards because I have an interest in a game. I don't care about game engines and I don't care about Devs or their silly following of idolators.
The burden is not on me, nor should it be, to "help" get this game to market by becoming some starry-eyed, pollyanish fanboi who thinks some guy with a calculator and a laptop is Elvis Presley. It is time for Simu to make this game and get it to market, or else stop taking advantage of people in a cynical marketing scheme for a engine.
EQ1, EQ2, SWG, SWTOR, GW, GW2 CoH, CoV, FFXI, WoW, CO, War,TSW and a slew of free trials and beta tests
Comments
I played GSIII for around six months, then switched to DR right around when it went to Beta on AOL. I played that for several years, but only off and on for the last couple until 2005-ish.
I have played many other online games as well.
While every game company overhypes quite a bit, Simutronics is by far the worst company I have ever seen. They routinely promise new systems and upgrades, discuss them at great length, get everyone in a frenzy and then... years pass and nothing happens. They have gone so far as to create web pages and web sites about some of these systems such as ALAE and Bloodlust. And in some cases listed tons of new things with specific dates that they left on web pages until long after those specific dates had passed with only a token percentage completed.
Bugs abounded. Systems that are released are rarely finished. There were shops and areas with signposts all over the place in DR saying "opening soon" that never did or else took years to open or erased.
GS, despite its unfinished systems and areas, was probably the best MUD or one of the best in its day but the bar has been raised. It took a long time for it to develop into a semi-polished, developed world system. Far too long.
DR, at release, was fairly horrible; the combat system messaging was way off, the combat system itself bears little relation to the one in use last time I played (every combat verb behaves differently now, armor is different, weapons stats and advantages are different, combat stats are different). The skill system was revamped several times. It took several years for crafting to be added, something I remember being promised "soon" in the second barbarian guild development meeting shortly after beta closed. It's sad because some people did devote massive amounts of time for little or no pay to make those games/systems work, and parts of them do, but the hype was just too much to come close to matching.
Alliance of Heroes was Simu's big chance to get on the map. They got licensing and advertising from a successful TV franchise but they produced it the same way they did DR. The game at release was a sloppy shell and bears little resemblance to the systems that they tried to entice us to 'try again' after the player base dwindled to sub-100 a few months later.
Simu was successful initially because they built a playerbase when AOL and Genie were the only online commercial game providers; there literally wasn't any real competition and AOL steered you right to them if you hit keyword: games.
I've been hearing about HJ since 1999. There was even an avi floating around of someone mounting and flying a dragon. Ign gave them a slot on their forums and a web page for a few years. Eventually, Zoha (forgot his real name) came to those boards and admitted that not much had been done for awhile but he gave us a spiel about "not giving up" and said things were in the works... And then we got the same thing again a couple years ago from the latest crew, but with more fanfare.
Maybe HJ will come out some day... maybe Simu will grow up. I certainly like DR's current combat system more than I do any other MMORPG's and hope to see it or something like it in a graphical game some day. But I'm not holding my breath.
Well if it doesnt come out at least you will be using the engine in a Bioware game in 2010?
https://www.smashwords.com/profile/view/Bleakmage
Yeah... I wish they would work just a little bit more on the game though. Their ideas would make HJ a pretty unique game. LOTRO and HJ (when it is released) will be my two MMOs.
Currently: Playing EVE Online
Previous: FFXI, Dragonrealms, sad little stint in WOWland.
Awaiting: Fallen Earth, Hero''s Journey, Tabula Rasa, Age of Conan.
I mean after all, having been announced in 1997 (!), "Duke Nukem Forever" is supposedly "still in development" and "will come out some day", but it's been 10 years. Even if DNF some day does get released (which most people believe it never will at this point), it's still Vaporware in the sense that the hype and announcements and such for the game were WAY premature.
The same thing is true here. They clearly got WAY ahead of themselves on the hype for this game, posting screenshots and other stuff that indicated the game was much further along than it ever really has been.
C
So in the end is it any loss to them to settle that business first then return to HJ. Even if HJ failed, they got paid.
Thats fine but you have to wait until 2010 before you can call it vaporware.
And since the game was shown last year at E3, I dont think a hiatus on news by the developers justifies calling the game Vaporware.
Not sure how often they post at their official forums.
Allow me to be the first to call the original poster an impatient person
Eh, I see the game being launched. Being similar to what they said it would be. Not having the skill to back it up and keep it up. Then bamf, Horizons all over again. I'm glad BioWare picked up the engine.
Now if Simu would start talking about launching HJ2 on the directx 10 or 11 format.. I'd see something worth looking forward to again.
I kill other players because they're smarter than AI, sometimes.
Simutronics had some obvious obstacles to overcome in terms of funding a game of this magnitude. It being nothing like what they've made so far, and them being a pretty small development house. So, they license their engine and provide funding with the means they had. It seems to be working so far.
The response has been great from what I've heard, and seen, from GDC. Hopefully I'll attend GDC this year as well, we'll see. Last year a lot of people asked me about the GAME Hero's Journey, mostly the fan types who got into the expo floor. The rest of the folks were developers interested in the toolset (Bioware was in the booth forever, as was Mythic and some other hotshots I can't remember). Hands down, it was the best middle-ware solution in the place, and there were 2 or 3 other major projects present, if I recall.
Anyway, it's a very valid concern you have that the game simply will not ship. I, of course, can't say yes or no for sure; I can only offer my honest opinion. That is, it may be later than we hoped for, but it will still find its way to fans.
I'd be thrilled if I was mistaken...
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Past MMOs- Planetside, WoW.
Current MMO:
Current Games: L4D, Skyrim
Tried- ATITD, EQ2, SoR, Vanguard,SL,LOTRO,SotNW,SWTOR.
Anticipating- GW2, Planetside2
I still think they should go back to doing what has worked for them with their text-based games and get a small working and 99% unblemished by serious bugs game world together with the basic combat/adventure systems and a whole lot of roleplaying support in place and launch from there. People used to pay almost $10 an hour on GEnie during prime time to play the earliest versions of Gemstone, and we’re talking about a MUD that at that time had a very small amount of rooms and very rudimentary systems compared to the massive world and complexity of the game today.
Obviously, taking this route would SEEM to be a far departure from the typical MMORPG launch where they supposedly have tried to get as close to ‘finished’ a product as they could in their development window (which almost never actually happens in this industry, re: numerous ‘complete’ MMORPG’s like Vanguard that have launched riddled with bugs), but doing it the other way has worked like a charm for Simutronics in the past and, as noted, few non-Blizzard products ever actually end up launching after they’re well and truly “done” anyway so it’d be nothing truly new.
I’d be interested to know how much more expensive and hardware intensive running graphical game servers is than running text-based game servers? I’ve always assumed ‘much more so’, but can recall a few times reading comments from developers that insisted there wasn’t too much difference. If it is true that there isn’t much difference, then launching a small but working game now and just continuing development through continual free patches over time might not be a bad idea. They could run as many servers as was profitable, even if the crowd of players was very small due to the style of launch, and then slowly add more servers as the game content grew over time.
A great deal of Hero’s Journey content is *already* being developed by volunteers, so there is no cost impact there. Having a small but rabidly dedicated community (a lot of which would probably come from the small but rabidly dedicated communities of their MUDs) would be helpful too. It’s part of what ended up making Gemstone great as the game grew around and beyond that initial ‘golden age’ community that established itself in the early days.
If development continues at a steady and visible pace and remains at a high level of quality, word of mouth will spread and more and more players will get interested. Simutronics has dominated the MUD industry for two decades because their text-based games were light years removed from anything else out there. While Blizzard similarly dominates the graphical industry these days for similar reasons, a product like Hero’s Journey with high production values and polish could be positioned to really succeed where games like Vanguard are *falling short.
* note that my suggestion that they’re falling short is a matter of opinion and perspective, and mostly refers to how Blizzard commands close to ten million subscribers while almost every other game out there struggles to maintain two hundred to three hundred thousand subscribers. At today’s subscription rates, I’m fairly certain any title that can claim a couple hundred thousand subscribers is a financial success, but is certainly no match for the 800 pound gorilla.
You mean like id (Quake, Doom), Valve (Half Life) and Epic (Unreal) are in such financial trouble? These are three of the most successful and profitable gaming companies out there and most of that money comes from licensing out their engine and tools.
1) None of those companies licensed the engines before their own games were released.
2) Those are not mmorpgs but 3d shooters with no monthly subscription, their financial models are very different.
- After a 3d shooter is released, majority of the copies will be sold within the first couple months. The company then license the engine out to cash in.
- After a mmorpg is released, majority of the income will be from monthly subscriptions for years to come. And if you license your own engine out to the competition even before the game is released, you are beating yourself over the head with a hammer, as a competition using the same engine (provided it's a good engine) will directly affect your bottomline long term.
3) It's common sense, only reason simu would license their engines out is because lack of funding. Either give the engine to the competition or face project cancellation. Their GMs pretty much confirmed the financial problems the company is having/had.
4) By comparing 3d shooter with mmorpg engine licensing, it showed your complete lack of understanding of the discussion.
[quote]
I say the following with all sincerity, STOP playing games and go to business school! You have NO clue what your talking about! Zero.
Jonny
[/quote]Why dont you provide a "clue" then instead of just offering those meaningless jabs. STOP playing games and go to school, any school..period.
Maybe then you will stop being such a fanboy lemming and actually have the ability to form your own thought process and think about why simu would put their own game(their highest priority project) on hold, to license out their flagship engine to a direct competition....
You mean like id (Quake, Doom), Valve (Half Life) and Epic (Unreal) are in such financial trouble? These are three of the most successful and profitable gaming companies out there and most of that money comes from licensing out their engine and tools.
1) None of those companies licensed the engines before their own games were released.
Wrong. Unreal 3 engine has been used in several games already. Still no Unreal 3 or Unreal Tournament update on the engine.
I'm a prime example of this. I'm an electrical engineer with a 9-5 (more like 6 to 6) job. When a large project comes up, I have to take a step back from HJ and do what needs to be done to keep the home fires burning.
My current large project is about 3/4 complete... but there is still a ways to go.
The good news is, my place within Simu is there when I can find the time to return. That's the nice thing about being part of it. They know real life and your family are most important and never stand in the way.
As of now, I've hit my 8 year mark as being a GM with Simutronics. And I look forward to MANY more years with them. They are an amazing group of people, all very talented... and all I am proud to call friends.
I am also chomping at the bit to be able to get back into it.
HJ-Royce
Simutronics Staff (GM)
http://www.play.net/hj/
Yet once again someone stated an ignorant statement. I recently contacted Tom Zelinski about his "producer" of HJ.
Dude, do YOUR HOMEWORK.
OR: Perhaps you can 'quote' me your 'illustrious source' regarding this.
Nah, never mind. This a well-due flame and deservidly so.
Watch My LIPS: Zelinski was NEVER EVER NEVER was a PRODUCER for Heroes Journey.
Where the HELL did you get THIS little nugget of Information ??
Ignorance in this Thread astounds me.
M
-- The Maxx
HJ will be produced, but it won't be the super game as previously advertised. Fanboi for it if ya want. It worked for Vanguard and I hope they do well for many years to come.
I kill other players because they're smarter than AI, sometimes.
Even if HJ never came out the companies a success as far as Im concerned. Now as a producer of there
own mmorpg.. LOL remains to be seen doesnt it?
Interesting...seeing as how we haven't had any layoffs since...hrm...97? 96?
Mr "eBurn":
I'm so very sorry... I apologize for the so very 'colorful' commentary. Mea Maxima Culpa.
However, you still don't know who/when/where/what personnel were Producers of Heroes Journey.
From the very beginning of the original HJ Producers & Planners to the Present Day (3/21/07), Tom Zelinski has never been an HJ Producer. Now, if you wish to quote your source for this "FanBoy" information of yours, or, even merely hint at your source. I would be very very interested.
Very
Very
Interested
-- The Maxx
I don't see the big deal here. I mean this isn't the first game to be pushed back past it's scheduled release. How many console games get pushed back months, even a year past when they were supposed to be launched and those are games that have very limited content. How long did it take for Blizzard to develop WoW and that game doesn't have anywhere near the detail or depth that HJ is going to have.
I understand why Simu is going about it the way that they are. With so many MMO's out there, they have to make sure they get it right the first time. Remember, they're a small company and they don't have the name recognition to pull people in like SOE, Blizzard or Square. When they release HJ is has to be great in order to seperate itself from the hundreds of other MMO's out there. It's really not a bad thing if you think about it that they're waiting until 08 to release HJ. This year LoTR's and WAR are both going to launch so that would be some pretty stiff competition, even though LoTR is nothing more than a clone of WoW. Launching HJ in 08 will allow HJ to be the biggest MMO debuting that year, if I'm not mistaken.
The only reason that people think this is vaporware is because Simu stopped giving us updates. I've said before that I think that is a bad move as I think it would be in their best intrest to put out as much pub about the game as possible, even if they're not giving us all the juicy details. Again, because they are a small company, they need to do everything they can to seperate their game from the big names out there which means that marketing is just as important as creating a great game. I hope now that they've finished licensing their engine, they will be able to get back to putting the game back on the map. Sites like MMORPG.com have done a great job of giving this game much needed attention and Simu needs to continue to take advantage of this free press. I think it would be great if Simu gave MMORPG.com an exclusive video clip to post. It doesn't have to be too revealing but at least it would let everyone see something about how the game has progressed and hopefully renew the hype and anticipation that this game had a year ago.
I assume that people posting here, since they have not played the game would like to see it in action and hope it will live up to it's self proclaimed hype. The complaints are because of expectations that have been raised but not met. Clearly this is a developer problem. As to whether we'll get a robust MMO or a new MMO at all remains to be seen. In similiar situations in the past (not the same) I've found it best not to get excited about it, better yet forget about it until you see that the beta is about to roll.
-----------------------
Past MMOs- Planetside, WoW.
Current MMO:
Current Games: L4D, Skyrim
Tried- ATITD, EQ2, SoR, Vanguard,SL,LOTRO,SotNW,SWTOR.
Anticipating- GW2, Planetside2
The other points you made, we can just agree to disagree. But I will respond to this one. This post, btw, is not directed at you, but at the concept I quoted.
I am not here to "support" this or any other game's development team or some nebulous concept of community. I am a consumer who plays videogames. I try to find good ones to play. Some have been great, others major disappointments. I don't think of the Devs as my buddy. I'm not trying to ingratiate myself to them, get a job with them, or get into their beta. My interest is purely will this be a game I can play or not, and if I can play it will it be any good? Right now, from where I am sitting, it looks like it would have been good but will never be launched, which is why I posted.
I am tired of all the sycophants following computer programers around like they are rock stars. They're not. It does the market for these games a huge disservice as game after game is released as an incomplete, underdeveloped, buggy piece of crap and still people shell out good money and laud the designers. I can think of no group of consumers more taken advantage of and abused than mmorpg players, and they are the author of their own harm.
In other cases (like I believe this one), they just use and manipulate their "fans" as evidence of the value and desirability of their engine, then make money off the engine and give the "fans" nothing. I am not a consumer of game engines and could care less how many copies of it Simu sells. That is doing jack for me. I frequent these boards because I have an interest in a game. I don't care about game engines and I don't care about Devs or their silly following of idolators.
The burden is not on me, nor should it be, to "help" get this game to market by becoming some starry-eyed, pollyanish fanboi who thinks some guy with a calculator and a laptop is Elvis Presley. It is time for Simu to make this game and get it to market, or else stop taking advantage of people in a cynical marketing scheme for a engine.
EQ1, EQ2, SWG, SWTOR, GW, GW2 CoH, CoV, FFXI, WoW, CO, War,TSW and a slew of free trials and beta tests