The devs say, "No Stealth." I say, "Woo hoo!"

retrospectic · March 2007

Discuss.

Areel · March 2007

Search.

skizi · March 2007

I agree with you, I think that stealth has killed PvP. It almost always guarantees you the jump. I hated rogues and druids in WoW, it was one of the things I hated about the game(and the unbalanced classes). A rogue can jump you, stun lock you for 15 seconds(the good ones), and then after that you are able to attack. If you're not a stealth class and come upon a member of the enemy faction, you pretty much have to take him. But for stealth classes, it's a matter of choice.

Another thing I hate in PvP games are abilities that allow you to escape a fight. I haven't read much on WAR, but I really hope they don't have those types of abilities. Think back to WoW, mage vs/ paladin, the mage can blink every 15 seconds and frost nova every 25, so he can pretty much get out of the fight any time he wants.

You shouldn't be allowed to run, in my opinion it should be "kill or be killed".

Alienovrlord · March 2007

Agree completely. Stealth doesn't just make PvP a nightmare to balance, it makes PvE grouping a tedious, boring ordeal for everyone but the stealth-character.

Some of the worst PvE grouping experiences I have had involve the group sitting around on their rears while one loner gets to run ahead, see all the content while making everyone wait, and playing their own private little hide and seek game on everyone else's time.

A lack of stealth will mean that when you group with people for PvE, then you explore and adventure as a GROUP. And that will only improve the game.

Murais · March 2007

While I do agree overall that stealth being removed from MMOs is a wonderful thing, the rogue hate is a tad much, don't you think? Maybe it's just because I played a rogue in WoW, but I don't think I've ever 'scouted on ahead and made everyone sit around and wait'. In PvE, I think stealth was very much a utility, and was used very well. However, in PvP, everyone is right, stealth is a bitch, and even I will admit this.

Being a rogue who grinded honor, I would very often scout around, avoid anything in plate, and go after someone I stood a chance against (like the mage at half health

). I'm not proud of it, but it was the easy way out, because what WoW promoted was not PvP, it was a mockery of PvP, more along the lines of farming players for points. I think WAR, along with many of its stances on PvP (such as the elimination of stealth) will bring a little back to the genre in terms of competitive PvP, rather than going after silly titles and points. WAR will keep me from repeating my past dishonorable actions, and for that, I am glad.

As for me, I'll be rolling an Orc Choppa come release of WAR.

Tyfreaky · March 2007

Gahhh another one of these? Come on guys, at least try to think of something interesting to post a thread on.

Heck alien warlord posted in the last one too... suddenly I have deja vu

and please use the forum search before you make a thread.

DuraheLL · March 2007

Indeed. I see no reason why stealth even should exist. The only effect of "invisibility" I ever could accept is hiding in proper places or sneaking, kinda like in Neverwinter Nights.

Stealth is something EVERYBODY hates, unless you have it yourself. It's lame and takes away much tactics.

anubisss · March 2007

The reason there is no stealth is because it just does`nt fit with WARHAMMER lore.From what i can remember about TT is there are no true stealth(total invis)classes.You have certain infantry that can camorflage ,you no blend in with surroundings but NO total stealth.

WAR IS COMING....

Ghost Squad.....

Godliest · March 2007

I say sad. I thought it was a good thing to always be on you "toes" when u play the game. It maid u always be ready to be jumped by a stealth class. It also brings more play to the game. It allows tactics like ninja that flag and then bla, bla, bla. I would say it's nothing I will mourn about, but it's sad they won't use it. As long as stealth isn't too overboosted it's generally just a good addition to the game, in my honest opinion (imho).

retrospectic · March 2007

Originally posted by Godliest

I say sad. I thought it was a good thing to always be on you "toes" when u play the game. It maid u always be ready to be jumped by a stealth class. It also brings more play to the game. It allows tactics like ninja that flag and then bla, bla, bla. I would say it's nothing I will mourn about, but it's sad they won't use it. As long as stealth isn't too overboosted it's generally just a good addition to the game, in my honest opinion (imho).

PvP is always about staying on your toes. The use of stealth in PvP allowed stealth classes to succeed regardless of the other players wits.

Ikarioz · March 2007

Stealth never been a major part of the Warhammer world. if i can remember theres only been 1-2 units that been able to stealth thats Skavens assassins. and possibly some more...

tapeworm00 · March 2007

Originally posted by retrospectic

Originally posted by Godliest

I say sad. I thought it was a good thing to always be on you "toes" when u play the game. It maid u always be ready to be jumped by a stealth class. It also brings more play to the game. It allows tactics like ninja that flag and then bla, bla, bla. I would say it's nothing I will mourn about, but it's sad they won't use it. As long as stealth isn't too overboosted it's generally just a good addition to the game, in my honest opinion (imho).

PvP is always about staying on your toes. The use of stealth in PvP allowed stealth classes to succeed regardless of the other players wits.

Ideally, if Stealth (and the classes/character types that use it) is correctly balanced, then it should only be a kick-off advantage. Some games handle stealth-piercing abilities, be them passives or actives, to be able to "balance out" the initial advantage. IMO the primary danger of handling stealth this way is that the class that uses it would have to be way too reliant on it to make it work in a "balanced" way.

The stealth classes wouldn't always succeed regardless of other players' wits then, and it would certainly add another level to "staying on your toes", not only for regular combat, but also to keep your attention for stealthy characters. If the game can handle the environment physics well, then we could also have another level of tactics and "keeping on your toes"; blades of grass bending over what appears to be nothing, water splashes in the middle of nowhere and so on could be ways of detecting a stealthy character outside of passive and active abilities. I believe the battlefield could become more interesting that way.

JuggyJugs · March 2007

Stealth in normal game aspect is fine, like pve.

PVP stealth shouldn't be in any game. especially on a warfront.

joereed1 · March 2007

No WOW type stealth is a very good thing. It's ridiculas that a rogue can disappear when they are stood directly in front of you. Using cover to hide in or behind is fine but invisability is plain dumb. However, I think abilities that allow certain classes to run away more effectively is fair enough if done sensibly.

Kyleran · March 2007

I agree with this decision, just from my distaste of stealth classes (and I've played several)

Usually they are too overpowered at first with stealth, so developers decide to nerf them so much the only way they can win is by totally surprising an otherwise engaged opponent. One vs one combat usually is not possible, and it ruins the fun for both stealthers and non-stealthers.

Much better to see everyone coming and engage or not. Lets also hope no class gets "escape" powers like WOW's vanish.... as long as a player is engaged in pvp...they should have to stick it out until the end....

Godliest · March 2007

Originally posted by retrospectic

Originally posted by Godliest

I say sad. I thought it was a good thing to always be on you "toes" when u play the game. It maid u always be ready to be jumped by a stealth class. It also brings more play to the game. It allows tactics like ninja that flag and then bla, bla, bla. I would say it's nothing I will mourn about, but it's sad they won't use it. As long as stealth isn't too overboosted it's generally just a good addition to the game, in my honest opinion (imho).

PvP is always about staying on your toes. The use of stealth in PvP allowed stealth classes to succeed regardless of the other players wits.

It comes back to the same thing as ever, having a controlled classes. I would say that whatever u add to a character if this ability isn't balanced it won't be good. I think that stealth that's well used and balanced is something good. What u say is that stealth should in someway be to good and always making the classes succed. My opinion is that stealth should exist, but in a balanced way.

If something is too good or boosts a class too much it will always make the character succeed. My point in having stealth is the feeling that you will never know when u will get jumped. Without stealth u will always be able to see a player coming on the horizon, while with stealth u will be more unsure. This will imo add more to the gameplay and the feeling of total insecure wherever u are, which I think is good.

Stealth is a good thing if it's used correctly. Stealth brings more parts to the gameplay and is a good addition to PvP, that is my opinion and I will stand for it. If u still disagree, then keep on discussing, always glad to discuss

Foxovic · March 2007

I loved my stealth class simple for the reason that I could "stealth" and go for a smoke or grab something to eat without having to worry about my character being killed. If someone phoned or dropped by... *poof*... my character is invisible and i dont have to worry about him. With other class i would have to run around trying to find a decent place to hide, like behind a large tree or a big rock.... and even then i would get ganked... by a rogue of course

PvP was a tad bit easy simple for the fact that i can easily catch someone off guard and have my way with him/her. PvPing against another stealthed class was a pain, the only way the battle would progress was if one of us purposely went unstealthed so the other could initiate the combat.

Either way, im kinda glad to see that it wont be poping up in WAR and im probably going to roll a Magus.

brounding · March 2007

Originally posted by anubisss

The reason there is no stealth is because it just does`nt fit with WARHAMMER lore.From what i can remember about TT is there are no true stealth(total invis)classes.You have certain infantry that can camorflage ,you no blend in with surroundings but NO total stealth.

WAR IS COMING....

Ghost Squad.....

True, however I played an Orc/Goblin army in Warhammer tabletop and I always carried around a group of night goblins that had a hidden unit in them. The night goblin fanatics. These guys are nasty little night goblins that are chained to a massive metal ball each. They spin around and do a lot of damage. The problem was, you had to roll a random direction die to determine which way they spun (and sometimes this meant running into your own units, and then you had to deal with animosity issues). Anyway, my point is that there were some units that were not visible until they made their play. The night goblin fanatic units were hidden inside a regular night goblin group (you chose before hand which group had the fanatics and you did not tell your opponent. Once an enemy unit got near your night goblins they busted out their hidden fanatic and pushed him forward towards the enemy.

I agree though, no unit (without magic items or spells) is invisible in warhammer fantasy.

nitefly · March 2007

Some characters are stealthy and agile and therefore able to move unseen through any terrain.

In my oppinion the easy stealth as it is used in WoW was made that way since they decided that floating names above people's heads were the way to go. That made hiding behind trees/rocks impossible.

Remove the floaty names and you allow players to decide whether to hide or not by moving their characters into a deep bush, behind a large rock or something similar.

Stealth classes could then instead have an ability that automatically removed other player's target from them if they moved behind cover. This should be modified by class/skill, so that an accomplished tracker could follow a not so accomplished stealth person.

And to make this system meaningful: Add iddle sounds to all characters that all players can hear based on their observation skill / level. By this I mean footsteps, armour noise, mount grunts and so on based on equipment. Heaviest armor making the most noise (heavier footsteps, more wheezing from carrying the extra weight etc.)

How easy was that?

Removed the "I don't need a brain to play my class" and inserted some good honest "If I outsmart my opponent, I can get an edge". We need more of the latter and none of the former if you want my oppinion.

retrospectic · March 2007

Originally posted by nitefly

Some characters are stealthy and agile and therefore able to move unseen through any terrain.

In my oppinion the easy stealth as it is used in WoW was made that way since they decided that floating names above people's heads were the way to go. That made hiding behind trees/rocks impossible.

Remove the floaty names and you allow players to decide whether to hide or not by moving their characters into a deep bush, behind a large rock or something similar.

Stealth classes could then instead have an ability that automatically removed other player's target from them if they moved behind cover. This should be modified by class/skill, so that an accomplished tracker could follow a not so accomplished stealth person.

And to make this system meaningful: Add iddle sounds to all characters that all players can hear based on their observation skill / level. By this I mean footsteps, armour noise, mount grunts and so on based on equipment. Heaviest armor making the most noise (heavier footsteps, more wheezing from carrying the extra weight etc.)

How easy was that?

Removed the "I don't need a brain to play my class" and inserted some good honest "If I outsmart my opponent, I can get an edge". We need more of the latter and none of the former if you want my oppinion.

Having a floating name does not stop people from using terrian advantage. Play Alterac Valley on the Horde side and watch as Gnome Mages find cover in almost every nook on the map. Hunters shoot through hills, healers stand behind walls and heal. The addition of stealth to the rogue class was just because it would be unfair to put a major part of the class dependant upon terrain.

Coldmeat · March 2007

And all the terrain in the world won't hide your name when it suddenly bugs out, and appears in ten foot tall letters across your opponents screen.

Though, in DAoC, where that nametag bug wasn't an issue, I was often surprised how easy it was to sneak up on people, just using the trees, rocks or whatever in the vicinity. Even as a nonstealth class.

It's not surprising how many people don't play with the camera fully zoomed out, or don't mouselook around them in a 360 degree arc, while running around.

Kaiaphas · March 2007

I'm fine with stealth. I'm not fine with stunlocks, stealth and massive dps combined into one wholely imbalanced class.

retrospectic · March 2007

There are many reasons besides stealth to knock upon WoW PvP. The system was attached on to a rather wholly balanced PvE game, and the nerfs that have come with the PvP system for each class totally blow. I find it highly humorous trying to PvP with my Priest using my non-PvP gear in a world of 70s who spend countless hours on the same map doing the same thing.

Hopefully if I pick a non-DPS class in WAR I will not face the same sort of horrible slaughter at the hands of someone who rolled a class with PvP advantages built into their class.

Nierro · March 2007

Brings me back to my scout stealth trains on Alb/Lancelot. We (5-10 people from my guild) picked a MT, crit shot it all at the same time, and watched it die instantly.

Yeah, things of that nature would definitely ruin the game.

vajuras · March 2007

No stealth? This is great news to me. Yay! You know an MMO is gonna suck when you see them add the 1 millionth stealth type usually. I just have not seen an MMO handle stealth correctly. they always balance 'rogue' types entirely around stealth. When in fact, stealth should've only been some extra ability or tool (like how you see in shooters like Unreal tournament or Battlefield 2142). I say bravo Mythic I cant wait for this MMO. Bravo. I'd just rather not see rogues at all to be honest they made open pvp in WoW suck badly. The problem is EVERYONE that pvps usually want to be stealth. Thus, u see nothing else but rogues and they bring little value to PvE. Next to none in almost every MMO ive seen so far

edit- actually I did like my Elf Scout in EQ2. that class did not seem entirely based on stealth at all. I could at least contribute as a secondary tank it was a fun class

vajuras · March 2007

Originally posted by retrospectic

There are many reasons besides stealth to knock upon WoW PvP. The system was attached on to a rather wholly balanced PvE game, and the nerfs that have come with the PvP system for each class totally blow. I find it highly humorous trying to PvP with my Priest using my non-PvP gear in a world of 70s who spend countless hours on the same map doing the same thing.

Hopefully if I pick a non-DPS class in WAR I will not face the same sort of horrible slaughter at the hands of someone who rolled a class with PvP advantages built into their class.

there is no primary healer/buffer type in WAR. Everyone is DPS its in the video that Paul himself promised. there is no one sitting in the back just clicking 'heal'. everyone will be designed to contribute to the fight

Howdy, Stranger!

The devs say, "No Stealth." I say, "Woo hoo!"

Comments

Fools find no pleasure in understanding but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV

Howdy, Stranger!

Quick Links

The devs say, "No Stealth." I say, "Woo hoo!"

Comments

Fools find no pleasure in understanding but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV