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Give Macs some love :)
sweetbass123
Member Posts: 28
I was wondering why MMORPGs and most computer games in general are soley for Windows computers. I have an iMac with bootcamp, so i can run all these games on the Windows side of my computer, but its kind of a pain. How come companies don't do it like blizzard does and have the CD work for both Macs and PCs. Would it be that much harder? I used to play WoW on my Mac, and it played beautifully, but I got really bored of it. Unfortunately WoW seems to be one of the only good MMOs for Mac. With Macs growing in popularity Im wondering if more companies will start creating games for both operating systems. I definately would like to see that happen. 
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No! Not chips! I want good ole' american french fries!
What do you mean I can't have fries?
Well which daft idiot put my Mac in a computer?
What? It IS a computer? No wonder they taste funny.
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Well way back in the day Microsoft made a API for Windows 3D programming called DirectX. The other 3D API (OGL which is found on *Nix and Mac I believe) wasn't as popular with game developers. So they developed on top of DirectX, which was pretty explicitly for Windows. Now they have their old engines in DirectX and their programmers used to DirectX so inertia is carrying them too.
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Simple equation:
Mac = infintisimal percentage of PC market = infintisimal amount of revenue to be gained by developers = buy a PC or do without.
Send Steve Jobs a thank you note for seeing how the personal computer was just a fad and therefore not competing for a spot in a "temporary" market.
I think I saw the reason in someone's sig on this site once. Something like this........
I made it a point to ask many a game studio about this when I met with them... there was really 1 simple underlying reason:
It's easier in Windows.
D3D is far simplier then OpenGL. Making a Bianary Package takes more work then instead of just a Windows Installer.
Why no Mac Love? Cause Dev's are lazy.
- CaesarsGhost
Lead Gameplay and Gameworld Designer for a yet unnamed MMO Title.
"When people tell me designing a game is easy, I try to get them to design a board game. Most people don't last 5 minutes, the rest rarely last more then a day. The final few realize it's neither fun nor easy."
As mentioned the market share is too small to warrant costly conversions if needed, however future games development may look at creating more mac versions if the uptake trend continues.
However with the advent of Boot camp and the ability to install Windows anyway plus windows emulators being very good now, there might not be much motivation to set aside resources to program specifically for a Mac when Mac users who have the hardware to play the latest and future games can access bootcamp and run windows if they want access to games.
Unless mac can support DirectX, there will never be that many Mac compatible versions of games. DirectX is king not only does it rule PC game development but due to DirectX development kit it allows easy conversion to being an XBox game, 2 huge markets so why would developers want to waste time on a minority market like macs.
I'm still wondering why consumers waste their time with Macs.
Hmmm ....
(By the way, I play on a PC. My post is not pro-Mac, but rather pointing out that there is untapped gaming revenue out there from Mac users that Blizzard is joyfully tapping.)
I'm still wondering why consumers waste their time with Macs.
There are artsy type programs made for Macs that arn't really available for windows boxes. Artsy fields such as desktop publishing, midi music, and photo imaging have more programs available on the mac than the windows box. Sure, the windows box is gaining more software in these "artsy" fields but the Mac has had them for ages and people in these fields are accustomed to Macs.Just like engineering software is more common on unix boxes. Sure, there is a lot of engineering software available on windows boxes now. But the people in the industry are used to unix boxes at this point.
So, you can probably get any software for windows boxes at this point. Try changing the preferences and habits of people that are used to using a certain OS for a certain software for over 15 years.
ehh
A computer that glues their hardware to their mobo just doesn't win me over.
If you're into artistic graphic arts or movie rendering, go with a MAC
If you're a gamer go with a PC
(However, PCs are now getting uncomfortably close to MACs in terms of graphic processing now)
Macs just arent gamer PCs. Well.... 98% of them at least
People who have to create conspiracy and hate threads to further a cause lacks in intellectual comprehension of diversity.
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"This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon
1. Is most developers code solely on Direct X, I expect with OpenGL2.0 being so far behind you will see even less titles due to the advent of DX10 in the coming years.
2. Windows is the largest home user platform it is about 90% of that market and something like 75% of the general market. Its high saturation makes it obvious to focus on it.
3. Apple units have traditionally been slower than comparably priced PCs. This is still the case as Apple refuses to remove their proprietary graphics interfaces meaning you are stuck usually below the 3rd most powerful card in any given generation and upgrades require a slightly more expensive card
4. Macs used single button mice. Offering less functionality in a multitude of titles than their PC kin.
5. Macs are not as popular as people think. Mac sales rose inline with? Survey says; BOOT CAMP the ability to put windows on the systems, and the advent of products that are comparably priced with PCs. You could now have it both ways. The experience of OS X and the boundless amount of software for Windows.
Slower? QuadCore Intel chips are slower on Macs then PC? X1950's are slower on Macs then on PC?
I'm on a Mac this second. I'm enjoying my Razor USB mouse with 8 buttons and 2 Scroll Wheels... what Mac are you looking at?
- CaesarsGhost
Lead Gameplay and Gameworld Designer for a yet unnamed MMO Title.
"When people tell me designing a game is easy, I try to get them to design a board game. Most people don't last 5 minutes, the rest rarely last more then a day. The final few realize it's neither fun nor easy."
More software for Linux plz. The PC emulator isn't that hot. Linux is just so stable, light, and fast. With the advent of Ubuntu, linux is even user friendly with no more command line stuff. The only real solution is to get VMWare and to run Windows under Linux, which actually makes it run better since the networking is handled by linux. I would be using Linux right now if Ubuntu knew how to use SATA II and ATA at the same time.
Also need some more artsy stuff on linux. I can use Maya Linux which is great. Rendering is ultra fast on linux. However, need atleast adobe support.
OpenGL2.1 runs slower then DirectX, also there are small graphical artifacts. DirectX also has better shaders. It really isn't even close. However, development of China's "State" OS and the crossplatformability should help boost OpenGL's development. OpenGL isn't restricted just to OS, but can also be implemented in consoles; especially useful in the PS3. DirectX is restricted to Windows and XBox. If you want to make a game that can spread across the whole spectrum of gaming and only make 1 version, then OpenGL is you're only choice.
The basic mac isn't really that good of an investment. It's upgradebility is extremely limited. When your MB goes out of date; your only choice is to buy a whole new system. Its costly not having the choice to replace parts over time. Like take my MB for example. If I wanted to upgrade it from a Socket AM2 to a Socket FX. I drop $500 for the MB, $150 processor since FX is 2 processor board,$100 new OS. Thats it. If I wanted to make a new mac, I would have to mac sure everything I cannot upgrade is top of the line and it would cost an easy $1200 since you have to buy a whole system. Linux is probably the best investment since OS is free.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gJtS-FywqQ4
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=t-L-0s-7-Z0
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gFAJDbV9Vfs
It really does boil down to three little words...
Return on Investment
If the market won't produce enough revenue for a Mac version of the game to make development worth it, then such development just won't happen. World of Warcraft does not require the same level of graphics processing power as most other games released around the same time, and was most likely easier to develop on both platforms. The more intensive the system requirements, the more costly a game will be to develop for multiple platforms.
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But that's always been the case, even when WoW was released. Blizzard has always done its games for both Mac and PC (they did it for Warcraft, Diablo, Starcraft) simultaneously so as to get even that additional small incremental market share that Mac users have -- it's never been a particularly strong ROI case, even at the time WoW was being made. I think Blizzard does it because they have a loyal fanbase among Mac users simply because they are one of the only game designers that hasn't ignored Macs or made Mac users wait a year for a port.
I am sure the loyal fan base on Mac is a factor. Blizzard can get enough revenue from the Mac ports of their games to develop them. If there is little profit to be had from a Mac port, Blizzard would be foolish to do it. It would make more sense to spend the development funds elsewhere. Spend 5 minutes in WoW, and you will see that there isn't anything all that spectacular about the graphics. It looks good for what it is, but it sure isn't GPU intensive. I am sure that if Blizzard games were as GPU intensive as games like EQ2, there would have only been a Windows release. Or at the very least, the Mac version would have come out much later. But to offer a game that has high end graphics on two different systems means you have to keep two sets development, customer service, and GM staff on hand. The post launch costs are a factor too.
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The reason behind "Windows Only" games is just Developer Laziness. No matter what you believe you read, there's no shader or special graphical feature you might have in D3D/DX10 that you can't get in OpenGL. OpenGL is just harder to program for.
When Diablo2 was released it was a "Both Installs on 1 DiscSet" as well. Diablo2 was considered high end graphics when it was released:
http://pc.ign.com/articles/160/160629p1.html
Notice the score for Graphics is a whoping 8.0? Course graphics have changed overtime, but back then it was awesome.
Many of you might remember back to Blizzard's release of WoW, they were hoping for 100k users. If you can get Blizzard to admit it, I bet at least that many log in and use OSX instead of Windows.
Other games that have come out using OpenGL that have insane graphics are also notable:
Quake/2/3/4 & Doom/2/3
Tribes 2
HalfLife 2/Source Engine
Any PS2 game.
Any PS3 game.
Any Gamecube game.
Any Wii game.
Many of you might remember that Unreal Tournament 2004 came out almost simotaniously for Mac then it did for Windows. It looked the same across both systems.
Basicly if it works in Linux, it'll be using OpenGL (for the most part).
So before spouting out that OpenGL doesn't have the abilities of D3D/DX, you should take a look at some of the games that rely heavily on them.
Cutting yourself off from any potential market for putting a little extra effort in over the course of a month is downright stupid. If you can't find programmers that can program, and not just script, you shouldn't be making a video game to begin with.
Late Edit: (I can't believe I forgot these):
ANY Relic game = Company of heroes, Homeworld/2, Impossible Creatures, Dawn of War (Warhammer)
- CaesarsGhost
Lead Gameplay and Gameworld Designer for a yet unnamed MMO Title.
"When people tell me designing a game is easy, I try to get them to design a board game. Most people don't last 5 minutes, the rest rarely last more then a day. The final few realize it's neither fun nor easy."
I find it amazing that by 2020 first world countries will be competing to get immigrants.
It isn't developer laziness... that's a rediculous statement. A language that is more difficult to program for would indicate that it would take longer, or require more resources. Otherwise, it's not harder... just different.
The simply fact of the matter is... if there is profit to be made, a game publisher is going to go after it. If the ROI is not worth the effort. They won't. It's simply business economics. The programmers aren't the ones calling the shots... the investors and shareholders are.
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