I really do not understand why these games take so long to get to the epic-feeling adrenaline-pumping fun stuff... I can do boring stuff all day without turning on my pc; I don't want my game time to be boring too. Do the majority of players really like this model, where you have to do hours of really boring stuff with limited powers to earn the right to do the cool stuff? I am sure some do, and I realise this game is geared to them, but I suspect the numbers of people who do are limited... I so wish I could skip straight past the dull early level grind to the grand drama immediately. I want to buy a boat NOW! Not after six months of grinding. I want a shot at a flying mount after a few days of play. I want to be confronted with a scripted boss encounter NOW! Not in six weeks. I want to see giants come marauding from over the hills! I want to see a bad-ass evil wizard and his undead minions wreak havoc in elf-town, and watch as the NPC guards scurry to mount a defense. I want a dragon to start rampaging in the fields, and gather together a group of brave warriors to take him down. And hear him taunt us as we try to kill him. And then follow clues to the dragon's cave and find its cursed treasure... not get some random 'drop' that appears in my screen after I have 'established ownership'. I don't know... bleh... this game has really made me lose faith in the current state of MMOs. So looking forward to Warhammer/Age of Conan... and pray they avoid this yawn-fest.
If everyone got to do all that "epic-feelin" stuff at the drop of a hat, it wouldn't feel so epic, now would it?
A fine example is how mounts in Vanguard seem so incredibly lackluster compared to many othe MMO's that make you wait until you're mid to high lvl and/or relatively wealthy to get them. It's that "I have it and you dont" feeling that makes it epic. If everyone had a diamond mine in their back yards, no one would care because the diamonds would be worthless.
Yes, the journey is meant to be fun, isn't it? I think that's the problem. In most MMORPGs, it just isn't.
On the other hand, I must say I love the RPG character progression concept... I play almost all RPGs because of character progression, it is what I like about the genre. I love the feeling of gaining new skills, getting stronger, the world getting to know my character more and more (which is pretty non-existent or implemented quite superficially in most MMORPGs anyway). It is just great in the feeling of accomplishment it provides.
The thing that really spoils the experience is that, in many MMORPGs, the journey feels meaningless. There is just no sense to it. Kill 10 tough mosquitoes... Kill 12 elder rats... Kill 20 sharp-fanged wild dogs... Call it foreplay, the cold numbers just throw me off the mood, really. I don't know about you, but when I start to calculate how many of a certain kind of creatures killed will make me go up a level, that's really my cue out right there. The better a game performs in giving a sound context to whatever you are doing to level up, the more fun the journey will be - and you will not realize every second that you are indeed walking a looooooong path.
The mechanics of leveling should be transparent . We should not be grinding the numbers, the game should.
I really do not understand why these games take so long to get to the epic-feeling adrenaline-pumping fun stuff... I can do boring stuff all day without turning on my pc; I don't want my game time to be boring too. Do the majority of players really like this model, where you have to do hours of really boring stuff with limited powers to earn the right to do the cool stuff? I am sure some do, and I realise this game is geared to them, but I suspect the numbers of people who do are limited... I so wish I could skip straight past the dull early level grind to the grand drama immediately. I want to buy a boat NOW! Not after six months of grinding. I want a shot at a flying mount after a few days of play. I want to be confronted with a scripted boss encounter NOW! Not in six weeks. I want to see giants come marauding from over the hills! I want to see a bad-ass evil wizard and his undead minions wreak havoc in elf-town, and watch as the NPC guards scurry to mount a defense. I want a dragon to start rampaging in the fields, and gather together a group of brave warriors to take him down. And hear him taunt us as we try to kill him. And then follow clues to the dragon's cave and find its cursed treasure... not get some random 'drop' that appears in my screen after I have 'established ownership'. I don't know... bleh... this game has really made me lose faith in the current state of MMOs. So looking forward to Warhammer/Age of Conan... and pray they avoid this yawn-fest.
It's a matter of taste really. For you, it's immediate gratification. In reality it would never be enough to keep your attention, I don't believe.
All I want is the truth Just gimme some truth John Lennon
Contents of the MMOs is something that undoubtedly are going to change. I work on a project that will do so. But you wont find it in any of the warhammer, age of conan or other games like that. Currently all MMO makers are too afraid of the lack of customers, to make the bold step forward that it is going to take. That is why we got Wow a full blown copy of the origianl EQ, and latest Vanguard, another copy of the same concept. We know that concept works. EQ had a couple of million people playing it, Wow now has 8 million and Vanguard is just starting to get off the ground, going through the tough birth that all other mmo's has also had.
So for now, we will have to settle with the same old stuff that we have known since the launch of the first EQ, but that isnt all that bad is it? Vanguard shows better missions, graphics, but does take time to remove the last bugs. But I doubt that Sony/Sigil was after anything but a follow up for Wow, which Vanguard truely is.
If you want fun stuff, you will have to propose it to the developers. They lack the imagination currently and need all the input they can get.
I really do not understand why these games take so long to get to the epic-feeling adrenaline-pumping fun stuff... I can do boring stuff all day without turning on my pc; I don't want my game time to be boring too. Do the majority of players really like this model, where you have to do hours of really boring stuff with limited powers to earn the right to do the cool stuff? I am sure some do, and I realise this game is geared to them, but I suspect the numbers of people who do are limited... I so wish I could skip straight past the dull early level grind to the grand drama immediately. I want to buy a boat NOW! Not after six months of grinding. I want a shot at a flying mount after a few days of play. I want to be confronted with a scripted boss encounter NOW! Not in six weeks. I want to see giants come marauding from over the hills! I want to see a bad-ass evil wizard and his undead minions wreak havoc in elf-town, and watch as the NPC guards scurry to mount a defense. I want a dragon to start rampaging in the fields, and gather together a group of brave warriors to take him down. And hear him taunt us as we try to kill him. And then follow clues to the dragon's cave and find its cursed treasure... not get some random 'drop' that appears in my screen after I have 'established ownership'. I don't know... bleh... this game has really made me lose faith in the current state of MMOs. So looking forward to Warhammer/Age of Conan... and pray they avoid this yawn-fest.
So far I seem to be the only person who realizes you're joking ...
That's what I thought at first, but read it again. He isn't joking.
Of course he is. Either that or he's the dumbest thing on the planet, even dumber than cabbage.
The answer is so self-evident, and the question so stupid, that he absolutely has to be joking.
He wants all the great drama and cool stuff (ie boats) immediately. Dragons. Stuff like that. No game does that, no game will ever do that. He thinks a group of low-level characters should be able to take down a dragon?!?
Come on, please. He's pulling your collective puds.
Yes, the journey is meant to be fun, isn't it? I think that's the problem. In most MMORPGs, it just isn't.
On the other hand, I must say I love the RPG character progression concept... I play almost all RPGs because of character progression, it is what I like about the genre. I love the feeling of gaining new skills, getting stronger, the world getting to know my character more and more (which is pretty non-existent or implemented quite superficially in most MMORPGs anyway). It is just great in the feeling of accomplishment it provides.
The thing that really spoils the experience is that, in many MMORPGs, the journey feels meaningless. There is just no sense to it. Kill 10 tough mosquitoes... Kill 12 elder rats... Kill 20 sharp-fanged wild dogs... Call it foreplay, the cold numbers just throw me off the mood, really. I don't know about you, but when I start to calculate how many of a certain kind of creatures killed will make me go up a level, that's really my cue out right there. The better a game performs in giving a sound context to whatever you are doing to level up, the more fun the journey will be - and you will not realize every second that you are indeed walking a looooooong path.
The mechanics of leveling should be transparent . We should not be grinding the numbers, the game should.
I can kinda understand where you're coming from here, but I think a lot of that has to do more with the players than the games themselves. It seems the trend with MMORPG's these days that people feel compelled to crack the formulas that run the game's mechanics. Of course once they do, they release that info to the general public, and from then on you pretty much HAVE to run the numbers to at least a minor extent just to remain competative in the game world. People scurry to discover if class X does more potential damage than class Y, and if its true, people stop making class Y characters, while those who are already class Y scream "Nerf class X!"
The diversity among classes is brutally low these days. Used to be each class in a game had something unique about it that differentiated it from it's peers. Take EQ for example. Monks were excellent split pullers, Enchanters and Shaman each had awesome, yet some very different, buffs that actually made a noticable difference to a group's performance, unlike nowadays where buffs seem rather negligible. There were several hybrid classes that could perform two roles proficiently, and a multitude of very different, interesting races you could choose from, and the choice had an impact on how your character would play. Companies have gotten into a bad habit of making the race you choose little more than cosmetic. Of course a large, hard-scaled lizard-man with a long muscular tail would have an advantage fighting unarmed over a squishy-skinned human, but that human would be deserving of bragging rights for making it just as far as that lizard-man in his advancement, could he pull it off.
So few gamers and devs alike think like that anymore, though. Now its all just a race to can pwn noobs and get teh phat lewtz, and the devs uncomplicate their formulas and their games, and throw together half-assed lore and backstory because so many players just dont give a rat's ass about that stuff anymore. Which is why MMORPG's today just dont live up to their old rotting grandpappies.
These days it's all about the almighty dollar...or yen, or euro, or whatever currency you pay your subscription fee in. Maybe I'm mistaken, but I think people really cared about making and maintaining a fun, quality product in the old days, and making money was just a good deal on the side in doing so. Seems that it wasnt until it became seen as highly profitable that the shovelware began flowing like a river of crap down a sewer line.
While I disagree with the instant gratification, making me slog through 100s of hours of miserably boring gameplay isn't gonna win my monies either.
As to the whole "fighting the dragon" thing, why can't you have those epic type encounters early on in the game, and smattered throughout? Where in the rules does it say that all the huge epic fights have to be saved for the endgame? Hell, that's the whole reason 99.99% of people just feverishly grind out levels to reach the endgame, cause that's where the devs continuously put the cool content.
Maybe if they spread it out from 1 to 50(or whatever the level cap is per game), people would slow down, and just enjoy the game as they went.
I really do not understand why these games take so long to get to the epic-feeling adrenaline-pumping fun stuff... I can do boring stuff all day without turning on my pc; I don't want my game time to be boring too. Do the majority of players really like this model, where you have to do hours of really boring stuff with limited powers to earn the right to do the cool stuff? I am sure some do, and I realise this game is geared to them, but I suspect the numbers of people who do are limited... I so wish I could skip straight past the dull early level grind to the grand drama immediately. I want to buy a boat NOW! Not after six months of grinding. I want a shot at a flying mount after a few days of play. I want to be confronted with a scripted boss encounter NOW! Not in six weeks. I want to see giants come marauding from over the hills! I want to see a bad-ass evil wizard and his undead minions wreak havoc in elf-town, and watch as the NPC guards scurry to mount a defense. I want a dragon to start rampaging in the fields, and gather together a group of brave warriors to take him down. And hear him taunt us as we try to kill him. And then follow clues to the dragon's cave and find its cursed treasure... not get some random 'drop' that appears in my screen after I have 'established ownership'. I don't know... bleh... this game has really made me lose faith in the current state of MMOs. So looking forward to Warhammer/Age of Conan... and pray they avoid this yawn-fest.
That's a very self centered point of view.
What is boring to you may not be...and is likely not...boring to someone else.
I suggest you just do what you think is fun and don't do what you think is boring. If a game has nothing fun to do? ....then play a different game.
Originally posted by markyturnip Hit level cap in WOW again; got tired... was looking for a new experience.
You were speaking of WoW, here. In my opinion this is part of your issue. You expect WoW. You don't want to learn how to, you don't want to grow into, you want to be dropped in front of a dragon and expect a fair chance to kill it, right out of the box.
I don't know if thats good or bad, wrong or right. I also don't know if thats 3rd gen or not. But look at your quote. In WoW you made it to the top. How long did that take? How tough was it? Did you enjoy the trip? Now your bored? To avoid this with other games, you might consider changing your play style.
I made 2 characters max level in WoW, in a VERY short time. Then left the game out of total boredom. In an attempt to avoid this, I'm now playing EQ2 by NOT trying to level to max, but rather trying to experience all the quests, all the encounters, all the game, along the road to the top. I don't know if this will work or not.
But I wonder, what is it about EQ1 that has held me, for 8 yrs? I suspect, it was getting to the top, as opposed to being at the top.
---------------------------------------- My dog barks some. Mentally you picture my dog, but I have not told you the type of dog which I have. Perhaps you even picture Toto, from "The Wizard of Oz." But I warn you, my dog is always with me.
Hit level cap in WOW again; got tired... was looking for a new experience.
You were speaking of WoW, here. In my opinion this is part of your issue. You expect WoW. You don't want to learn how to, you don't want to grow into, you want to be dropped in front of a dragon and expect a fair chance to kill it, right out of the box.
I don't know if thats good or bad, wrong or right. I also don't know if thats 3rd gen or not. But look at your quote. In WoW you made it to the top. How long did that take? How tough was it? Did you enjoy the trip? Now your bored? To avoid this with other games, you might consider changing your play style.
I made 2 characters max level in WoW, in a VERY short time. Then left the game out of total boredom. In an attempt to avoid this, I'm now playing EQ2 by NOT trying to level to max, but rather trying to experience all the quests, all the encounters, all the game, along the road to the top. I don't know if this will work or not.
But I wonder, what is it about EQ1 that has held me, for 8 yrs? I suspect, it was getting to the top, as opposed to being at the top.
I really hope you find the change in playstyle rewarding. I see alot of people rush to max level in adventure...get bored and quit playing till the next expansion. I suspect you will...either way though..bottom line is to have fun. Even though I don't understand the need to rush ( well..I do..but thats another thread )...so long as the player is enjoying his time online and not griefing anyone ..i say go for it then.
It's the journey that counts ...not so much the destination.
I really do not understand why these games take so long to get to the epic-feeling adrenaline-pumping fun stuff... I can do boring stuff all day without turning on my pc; I don't want my game time to be boring too. Do the majority of players really like this model, where you have to do hours of really boring stuff with limited powers to earn the right to do the cool stuff? I am sure some do, and I realise this game is geared to them, but I suspect the numbers of people who do are limited... I so wish I could skip straight past the dull early level grind to the grand drama immediately. I want to buy a boat NOW! Not after six months of grinding. I want a shot at a flying mount after a few days of play. I want to be confronted with a scripted boss encounter NOW! Not in six weeks. I want to see giants come marauding from over the hills! I want to see a bad-ass evil wizard and his undead minions wreak havoc in elf-town, and watch as the NPC guards scurry to mount a defense. I want a dragon to start rampaging in the fields, and gather together a group of brave warriors to take him down. And hear him taunt us as we try to kill him. And then follow clues to the dragon's cave and find its cursed treasure... not get some random 'drop' that appears in my screen after I have 'established ownership'. I don't know... bleh... this game has really made me lose faith in the current state of MMOs. So looking forward to Warhammer/Age of Conan... and pray they avoid this yawn-fest.
Easy... because you won't be able to handle high end content. You will have no idea of how your skills works and all.
While I disagree with the instant gratification, making me slog through 100s of hours of miserably boring gameplay isn't gonna win my monies either. As to the whole "fighting the dragon" thing, why can't you have those epic type encounters early on in the game, and smattered throughout? Where in the rules does it say that all the huge epic fights have to be saved for the endgame? Hell, that's the whole reason 99.99% of people just feverishly grind out levels to reach the endgame, cause that's where the devs continuously put the cool content. Maybe if they spread it out from 1 to 50(or whatever the level cap is per game), people would slow down, and just enjoy the game as they went.
I fought "dragons" and giants before my lvl 20.
I had epic feels from lvl 1 till my current lvl (22). Guess it depends on what is epic for you and what is not.
There seems to be some confusion here about the OP's original point. I don't believe he was saying he wanted to be insta-uber at level 1, or even insta-uber after 5 minutes of gameplay.
I think he was asking why the current crop of MMORPGs still rely on the truly outdated design mechanism of the time-sink and the grind in order provide players with a sense of accomplishment?
I'm astonished that many of the people replying in this thread view their own defense of the mindless grind as somehow standing up for Roleplaying or "deep gameplay" or what have you! It should be very obvious to anyone that has ever PnP role-played or even been intrigued at what a true virtual world would look like that the grind mechanism that EQ popularized was the absolute worst thing to happen to MMORPGs. If only UO had become the template for MMORPGs instead of EQ, huh? If only...
If there's one thing positive one can say about WoW in this regard it is its decision to emphasize questing over pure grinding. Of course, many of WoW's quests ultimately come down to killing 10 of this or 20 of that, so it's still the grind just camoflauged a bit better, but at least it's a step in the right direction, albeit incrementally.
I've been playing MMORPGs for going on 10 years now, and, to be honest, it's getting to be an utter drag. If I have to kill 10 more of this or 15 more of that...I mean, honestly, going on 10 years of MMORPGs and 20 years of CRPGs and designers are still falling back on the crutch of Fed Ex delivery quests and Kill the Foozle quests to create 90% of their game's quest content? WTF? Character progression is based totally and solely around filling up that string of little blue dots at the bottom of your screen by performing the same type of action over and over again? How is this role-playing? How is this immersion?
I'm not saying I know the answer to these questions, but in my opinion, an MMORPG cannot be considered a 3rd Gen MMORPG without at least trying to answer them. All I know is that returning to an EQ type of game play (note: I don't mean difficulty level, I mean the actual meat of the game - i.e., what the player must do most of the time in game in order to accomplish anything) is not the answer.
what these online games really need is to incorporate more than just combat and armor training. for this game some examples would be to have to eventually "weed out" loot rewards....and make the weapon system dependant on other players.....mounts should be trained and sold....not bought from an npc....etc....
the diplomacy is something that is in the right direction. players should have a ton of non combat options which in turn will keep combat more exciting.
There seems to be some confusion here about the OP's original point. I don't believe he was saying he wanted to be insta-uber at level 1, or even insta-uber after 5 minutes of gameplay. "I want to buy a boat NOW! Not after six months of grinding. I want a shot at a flying mount after a few days of play. I want to be confronted with a scripted boss encounter NOW! Not in six weeks." Those were the OP's exact words. Judging from that, I think you could be mistaken here. I think he was asking why the current crop of MMORPGs still rely on the truly outdated design mechanism of the time-sink and the grind in order provide players with a sense of accomplishment? It's not the devs so much as it is human nature. I mean it's normal to feel a sense of accomplishment when things take a long time to do. Whether or not you care enough to spend the time doing it is up to the individual, and there plenty of individuals who do care enough, otherwise these games wouldn't be at all profitable. I'm astonished that many of the people replying in this thread view their own defense of the mindless grind as somehow standing up for Roleplaying or "deep gameplay" or what have you! It should be very obvious to anyone that has ever PnP role-played or even been intrigued at what a true virtual world would look like that the grind mechanism that EQ popularized was the absolute worst thing to happen to MMORPGs. If only UO had become the template for MMORPGs instead of EQ, huh? If only... They're entitled to their opinions, and you yours. There's no set rule as to whats enjoyable so dont try to make it sound like they're wrong and you're right. It should be obvious that if enough people didn't like what EQ brought to MMORPG's it would never have become the standard for the games that followed it. You dont seem to think so, and thats all good and well, but to imply that others who feel differently from you are blind or ignorant to the "truth" is pretty arrogant, dont you think? If there's one thing positive one can say about WoW in this regard it is its decision to emphasize questing over pure grinding. Of course, many of WoW's quests ultimately come down to killing 10 of this or 20 of that, so it's still the grind just camoflauged a bit better, but at least it's a step in the right direction, albeit incrementally. I've been playing MMORPGs for going on 10 years now, and, to be honest, it's getting to be an utter drag. If I have to kill 10 more of this or 15 more of that...I mean, honestly, going on 10 years of MMORPGs and 20 years of CRPGs and designers are still falling back on the crutch of Fed Ex delivery quests and Kill the Foozle quests to create 90% of their game's quest content? WTF? Character progression is based totally and solely around filling up that string of little blue dots at the bottom of your screen by performing the same type of action over and over again? How is this role-playing? How is this immersion? Role playing is up to the individual, not in how quests are designed. It's something the player either chooses to do or not to do. As far as the quest content, well thats really what traveling "swords-for-hire" pretty much did centuries ago. They were typically hired to see precious cargo to it's destination, perhaps slay wild animals that attacked livestock or crops, or hunt down thieves. MMORPG's just typically throw monsters, magic, and magical artifacts into the mix. And honestly, it doesn't make sense for a character to become a better fighter without...y'know...fighting stuff, thought I will agree that it would be nice to have other forms of advancement. Vanguard's crafting and diplomacy systems are a step in the right direction. And the experience point issue, well there has to be some way of knowing how much your character is advancing since you cant actually physically feel how much lighter your weapon seems to have gotten, or how easy it's become to move carrying such heavy equipment, so some kind of "point" representation of all that is necessary. Maybe with 50 more years of technological advancements. I'm not saying I know the answer to these questions, but in my opinion, an MMORPG cannot be considered a 3rd Gen MMORPG without at least trying to answer them. All I know is that returning to an EQ type of game play (note: I don't mean difficulty level, I mean the actual meat of the game - i.e., what the player must do most of the time in game in order to accomplish anything) is not the answer. Well, it's a virtual adventure. Adventurers in novels and other stories travel, fight monsters and bad guys, and uncover treasures and magical artifacts. That's the meat of any adventure-based MMORPG. If they made an MMO that was based on something other than adventuring, you'd end up doing primarily the things that are required for accomplishment of that profession. I think, if anything, it's the fact that there are so many adventure-based MMO's out there right now. Seems everyone and their aunt Sue is making them now. I mean they're pouring forth like boyscouts from Michael Jackson's closet (sorry MJ, it was just too easy). I do agree with you that the genre is getting a little tired, but I believe it's not the developers' fault, but more that you, like myself, are possibly just becoming burnt out on them from playing so many for so long.
To my mind you missed the point, the journey is meant to be fun, seeing different dungeons and questlines is fun, grouping with people is fun, having your character acquire new skills along the way is fun, reaching the end isn't the point.
That's true only if the game world itself is immersive, vibrant, and gives players a sense of their role in the larger conflict at work.
if the game world itself doesn't draw the player in, they're not going to care about making that journey. They'll just be interested in getting to the good stuff (i.e., end game content, raids, uber gear, etc.) as quickly as possible.
Lidane is so right. Sadly, no game have been able to give me this apart from Ultima Online where the end game was kinda up in your face at the start. Vanguard fails to do this as well, which I knew after a few minutes in beta. But getting to the end isn't too painful. Still things to see, do and be impressed by on the way... just not as much as you wish.
I know one or two do get that feeling from Vanguard. But it's turely just one or two =op
I really do not understand why these games take so long to get to the epic-feeling adrenaline-pumping fun stuff... I can do boring stuff all day without turning on my pc; I don't want my game time to be boring too. Do the majority of players really like this model, where you have to do hours of really boring stuff with limited powers to earn the right to do the cool stuff? I am sure some do, and I realise this game is geared to them, but I suspect the numbers of people who do are limited... I so wish I could skip straight past the dull early level grind to the grand drama immediately. I want to buy a boat NOW! Not after six months of grinding. I want a shot at a flying mount after a few days of play. I want to be confronted with a scripted boss encounter NOW! Not in six weeks. I want to see giants come marauding from over the hills! I want to see a bad-ass evil wizard and his undead minions wreak havoc in elf-town, and watch as the NPC guards scurry to mount a defense. I want a dragon to start rampaging in the fields, and gather together a group of brave warriors to take him down. And hear him taunt us as we try to kill him. And then follow clues to the dragon's cave and find its cursed treasure... not get some random 'drop' that appears in my screen after I have 'established ownership'. I don't know... bleh... this game has really made me lose faith in the current state of MMOs. So looking forward to Warhammer/Age of Conan... and pray they avoid this yawn-fest.
There seems to be some confusion here about the OP's original point. I don't believe he was saying he wanted to be insta-uber at level 1, or even insta-uber after 5 minutes of gameplay. "I want to buy a boat NOW! Not after six months of grinding. I want a shot at a flying mount after a few days of play. I want to be confronted with a scripted boss encounter NOW! Not in six weeks." Those were the OP's exact words. Judging from that, I think you could be mistaken here. Hmm, you're right there. Maybe the OP was a bit more "rambunctious" than I gave him credit for I think he was asking why the current crop of MMORPGs still rely on the truly outdated design mechanism of the time-sink and the grind in order provide players with a sense of accomplishment? It's not the devs so much as it is human nature. I mean it's normal to feel a sense of accomplishment when things take a long time to do. Whether or not you care enough to spend the time doing it is up to the individual, and there plenty of individuals who do care enough, otherwise these games wouldn't be at all profitable. I'm not disagreeing that people feel a sense of accomplishment from doing a task that takes effort and patience. However, I'd argue that the types of tasks MMORPGs currently subject players to in order to deliver that sense of accomplishment stems solely from outdated and lazy game mechanics. Players feel a sense of accomplishment from playing "whack-a-mole" because that is what they have grown accustomed to doing in these types of games. At the moment, it is practically the only mechanism for achieving a sense of accomplishment. In other words, I'm arguing that the sense of accomplishment players feel from an EQ style advancement system is contrived - it's not something that truly offers them a sense of accomplishment; it's more a sense of "gaming the system" than anything else. I'm astonished that many of the people replying in this thread view their own defense of the mindless grind as somehow standing up for Roleplaying or "deep gameplay" or what have you! It should be very obvious to anyone that has ever PnP role-played or even been intrigued at what a true virtual world would look like that the grind mechanism that EQ popularized was the absolute worst thing to happen to MMORPGs. If only UO had become the template for MMORPGs instead of EQ, huh? If only... They're entitled to their opinions, and you yours. There's no set rule as to whats enjoyable so dont try to make it sound like they're wrong and you're right. It should be obvious that if enough people didn't like what EQ brought to MMORPG's it would never have become the standard for the games that followed it. You dont seem to think so, and thats all good and well, but to imply that others who feel differently from you are blind or ignorant to the "truth" is pretty arrogant, dont you think? You're right. I apologize if I came off sounding arrogant. I'm more just frustrated and disappointed that after 10 years of MMORPG development, the industry hasn't come very far at all. MMORPGs aside, I'm a big fan of the concept of virtual worlds in general, and I just feel there's so much more than can be done to realize them that isn't being pursued by developers. Obviously real-world concerns like profitability and technical feasability are at play here, and I know many developers share the same frustrations I do. I mean, in the type of virtual world I envision, there wouldn't even be a binary split between achievement type players and sandbox type players; a true virtual world would be able to accomodate both play types. If there's one thing positive one can say about WoW in this regard it is its decision to emphasize questing over pure grinding. Of course, many of WoW's quests ultimately come down to killing 10 of this or 20 of that, so it's still the grind just camoflauged a bit better, but at least it's a step in the right direction, albeit incrementally. I've been playing MMORPGs for going on 10 years now, and, to be honest, it's getting to be an utter drag. If I have to kill 10 more of this or 15 more of that...I mean, honestly, going on 10 years of MMORPGs and 20 years of CRPGs and designers are still falling back on the crutch of Fed Ex delivery quests and Kill the Foozle quests to create 90% of their game's quest content? WTF? Character progression is based totally and solely around filling up that string of little blue dots at the bottom of your screen by performing the same type of action over and over again? How is this role-playing? How is this immersion? Role playing is up to the individual, not in how quests are designed. It's something the player either chooses to do or not to do. As far as the quest content, well thats really what traveling "swords-for-hire" pretty much did centuries ago. They were typically hired to see precious cargo to it's destination, perhaps slay wild animals that attacked livestock or crops, or hunt down thieves. MMORPG's just typically throw monsters, magic, and magical artifacts into the mix. And honestly, it doesn't make sense for a character to become a better fighter without...y'know...fighting stuff, thought I will agree that it would be nice to have other forms of advancement. Vanguard's crafting and diplomacy systems are a step in the right direction. And the experience point issue, well there has to be some way of knowing how much your character is advancing since you cant actually physically feel how much lighter your weapon seems to have gotten, or how easy it's become to move carrying such heavy equipment, so some kind of "point" representation of all that is necessary. Maybe with 50 more years of technological advancements. Yes, MMORPGs are ultimately still games, and games need rules and ways of measuring success and failure. But, again, the measurements used in the current crop of MMORPGs are so limited as to be meaningless IMHO. Just to throw a few new ways of thinking about measurements of success and failure: 1) After all this time, how come no MMORPG has ever truly tried to develop a political model in their virtual worlds? The rise of fall of leaders? The balancing of the eternal needs of guns vs. butter? 2) For all the emphasis on crafting and player-run economies, how come no MMORPG has never tried to model a true economic system where there is a chance a player can actually FAIL at running a business or become wildly successful and buy out his rivals? What about the role of taxation? Depressions and recessions and bubble economies? The surplus or lack of trade goods? 3) Permanent player death is a pariah topic, I know, when it comes to MMORPG design, but there are plenty of work arounds that still provide greater depth than the current system of immortal, never changing characters that players are stuck with. What about a dynasty system that allows offspring and inherited items? What about the passing on of genetics when two players are allowed to bear virtual offspring (a la The Sims 2)? Now all or none of these things may be very interesting to you or anybody else reading this post, but the point I'm trying to get at is that the current advancement mechanism of most of the MMORPGs out there are too tethered to the EQ style of artificial accomplishment to the point where it handicaps thinking about virtual worlds in any other way. I'm not saying I know the answer to these questions, but in my opinion, an MMORPG cannot be considered a 3rd Gen MMORPG without at least trying to answer them. All I know is that returning to an EQ type of game play (note: I don't mean difficulty level, I mean the actual meat of the game - i.e., what the player must do most of the time in game in order to accomplish anything) is not the answer. Well, it's a virtual adventure. Adventurers in novels and other stories travel, fight monsters and bad guys, and uncover treasures and magical artifacts. That's the meat of any adventure-based MMORPG. If they made an MMO that was based on something other than adventuring, you'd end up doing primarily the things that are required for accomplishment of that profession. I think, if anything, it's the fact that there are so many adventure-based MMO's out there right now. Seems everyone and their aunt Sue is making them now. I mean they're pouring forth like boyscouts from Michael Jackson's closet (sorry MJ, it was just too easy). I do agree with you that the genre is getting a little tired, but I believe it's not the developers' fault, but more that you, like myself, are possibly just becoming burnt out on them from playing so many for so long. I probably am burned out on them, but I'm too in love with the concept to abandon them I've found that I'm unable to play single player games anymore. For me, the future of gaming lies in MMOs in general and MMORPGs specifically. I think we actually agree more than we disagree. We both agree that this particular genre of gaming has great potential that isn't currently being realized. Thanks for the thoughtful comments, BTW.
Some new MMOs are trying things a tad differently. Age of Conan opens with a singleplayer portion of the game. Warhammer Online allows you to PvP at level 1 and level viably off just that.
As far as Vanguard goes...things like a horse at level 10 was a nice step. I imagine flying mounts and boats weren't set up for lower levels due to the intended restriction on travel.
Though, now that they're introducing teleporters and such now, and the game being in desperate need of creating a better newbie experience, I bet some day in the future we might see canoes and giant flying squirrels or somesuch eventually for lower levels.
That's what makes a real game, getting your horse at 10th level. At least until the next game let's you get one a 9th level...
Comments
If everyone got to do all that "epic-feelin" stuff at the drop of a hat, it wouldn't feel so epic, now would it?
A fine example is how mounts in Vanguard seem so incredibly lackluster compared to many othe MMO's that make you wait until you're mid to high lvl and/or relatively wealthy to get them. It's that "I have it and you dont" feeling that makes it epic. If everyone had a diamond mine in their back yards, no one would care because the diamonds would be worthless.
On the other hand, I must say I love the RPG character progression concept... I play almost all RPGs because of character progression, it is what I like about the genre. I love the feeling of gaining new skills, getting stronger, the world getting to know my character more and more (which is pretty non-existent or implemented quite superficially in most MMORPGs anyway). It is just great in the feeling of accomplishment it provides.
The thing that really spoils the experience is that, in many MMORPGs, the journey feels meaningless. There is just no sense to it. Kill 10 tough mosquitoes... Kill 12 elder rats... Kill 20 sharp-fanged wild dogs... Call it foreplay, the cold numbers just throw me off the mood, really. I don't know about you, but when I start to calculate how many of a certain kind of creatures killed will make me go up a level, that's really my cue out right there. The better a game performs in giving a sound context to whatever you are doing to level up, the more fun the journey will be - and you will not realize every second that you are indeed walking a looooooong path.
The mechanics of leveling should be transparent . We should not be grinding the numbers, the game should.
All I want is the truth
Just gimme some truth
John Lennon
Contents of the MMOs is something that undoubtedly are going to change. I work on a project that will do so. But you wont find it in any of the warhammer, age of conan or other games like that. Currently all MMO makers are too afraid of the lack of customers, to make the bold step forward that it is going to take. That is why we got Wow a full blown copy of the origianl EQ, and latest Vanguard, another copy of the same concept. We know that concept works. EQ had a couple of million people playing it, Wow now has 8 million and Vanguard is just starting to get off the ground, going through the tough birth that all other mmo's has also had.
So for now, we will have to settle with the same old stuff that we have known since the launch of the first EQ, but that isnt all that bad is it? Vanguard shows better missions, graphics, but does take time to remove the last bugs. But I doubt that Sony/Sigil was after anything but a follow up for Wow, which Vanguard truely is.
If you want fun stuff, you will have to propose it to the developers. They lack the imagination currently and need all the input they can get.
That's what I thought at first, but read it again. He isn't joking.
Of course he is. Either that or he's the dumbest thing on the planet, even dumber than cabbage.The answer is so self-evident, and the question so stupid, that he absolutely has to be joking.
He wants all the great drama and cool stuff (ie boats) immediately. Dragons. Stuff like that. No game does that, no game will ever do that. He thinks a group of low-level characters should be able to take down a dragon?!?
Come on, please. He's pulling your collective puds.
Naw, not enough dirty parts......pick up a copy of Harvard Lampoon's "Bored of the Rings" if you want to read a real classic.
Sorry to disapoint, but SPOILER ALERT!!!
While BOTR has lots of filthy language, there is not even a single naked elf chick in the entire book.
I can kinda understand where you're coming from here, but I think a lot of that has to do more with the players than the games themselves. It seems the trend with MMORPG's these days that people feel compelled to crack the formulas that run the game's mechanics. Of course once they do, they release that info to the general public, and from then on you pretty much HAVE to run the numbers to at least a minor extent just to remain competative in the game world. People scurry to discover if class X does more potential damage than class Y, and if its true, people stop making class Y characters, while those who are already class Y scream "Nerf class X!"
The diversity among classes is brutally low these days. Used to be each class in a game had something unique about it that differentiated it from it's peers. Take EQ for example. Monks were excellent split pullers, Enchanters and Shaman each had awesome, yet some very different, buffs that actually made a noticable difference to a group's performance, unlike nowadays where buffs seem rather negligible. There were several hybrid classes that could perform two roles proficiently, and a multitude of very different, interesting races you could choose from, and the choice had an impact on how your character would play. Companies have gotten into a bad habit of making the race you choose little more than cosmetic. Of course a large, hard-scaled lizard-man with a long muscular tail would have an advantage fighting unarmed over a squishy-skinned human, but that human would be deserving of bragging rights for making it just as far as that lizard-man in his advancement, could he pull it off.
So few gamers and devs alike think like that anymore, though. Now its all just a race to can pwn noobs and get teh phat lewtz, and the devs uncomplicate their formulas and their games, and throw together half-assed lore and backstory because so many players just dont give a rat's ass about that stuff anymore. Which is why MMORPG's today just dont live up to their old rotting grandpappies.
These days it's all about the almighty dollar...or yen, or euro, or whatever currency you pay your subscription fee in. Maybe I'm mistaken, but I think people really cared about making and maintaining a fun, quality product in the old days, and making money was just a good deal on the side in doing so. Seems that it wasnt until it became seen as highly profitable that the shovelware began flowing like a river of crap down a sewer line.
While I disagree with the instant gratification, making me slog through 100s of hours of miserably boring gameplay isn't gonna win my monies either.
As to the whole "fighting the dragon" thing, why can't you have those epic type encounters early on in the game, and smattered throughout? Where in the rules does it say that all the huge epic fights have to be saved for the endgame? Hell, that's the whole reason 99.99% of people just feverishly grind out levels to reach the endgame, cause that's where the devs continuously put the cool content.
Maybe if they spread it out from 1 to 50(or whatever the level cap is per game), people would slow down, and just enjoy the game as they went.
That's a very self centered point of view.
What is boring to you may not be...and is likely not...boring to someone else.
I suggest you just do what you think is fun and don't do what you think is boring. If a game has nothing fun to do? ....then play a different game.
I don't know if thats good or bad, wrong or right. I also don't know if thats 3rd gen or not. But look at your quote. In WoW you made it to the top. How long did that take? How tough was it? Did you enjoy the trip? Now your bored? To avoid this with other games, you might consider changing your play style.
I made 2 characters max level in WoW, in a VERY short time. Then left the game out of total boredom. In an attempt to avoid this, I'm now playing EQ2 by NOT trying to level to max, but rather trying to experience all the quests, all the encounters, all the game, along the road to the top. I don't know if this will work or not.
But I wonder, what is it about EQ1 that has held me, for 8 yrs? I suspect, it was getting to the top, as opposed to being at the top.
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My dog barks some. Mentally you picture my dog, but I have not told you the type of dog which I have. Perhaps you even picture Toto, from "The Wizard of Oz." But I warn you, my dog is always with me.
I don't know if thats good or bad, wrong or right. I also don't know if thats 3rd gen or not. But look at your quote. In WoW you made it to the top. How long did that take? How tough was it? Did you enjoy the trip? Now your bored? To avoid this with other games, you might consider changing your play style.
I made 2 characters max level in WoW, in a VERY short time. Then left the game out of total boredom. In an attempt to avoid this, I'm now playing EQ2 by NOT trying to level to max, but rather trying to experience all the quests, all the encounters, all the game, along the road to the top. I don't know if this will work or not.
But I wonder, what is it about EQ1 that has held me, for 8 yrs? I suspect, it was getting to the top, as opposed to being at the top.
I really hope you find the change in playstyle rewarding. I see alot of people rush to max level in adventure...get bored and quit playing till the next expansion. I suspect you will...either way though..bottom line is to have fun. Even though I don't understand the need to rush ( well..I do..but thats another thread )...so long as the player is enjoying his time online and not griefing anyone ..i say go for it then.
It's the journey that counts ...not so much the destination.
The sweet ain't so sweet without some bitter.
Same will happens in WAR and AoC... sorry.
eqnext.wikia.com
I had epic feels from lvl 1 till my current lvl (22). Guess it depends on what is epic for you and what is not.
eqnext.wikia.com
There seems to be some confusion here about the OP's original point. I don't believe he was saying he wanted to be insta-uber at level 1, or even insta-uber after 5 minutes of gameplay.
I think he was asking why the current crop of MMORPGs still rely on the truly outdated design mechanism of the time-sink and the grind in order provide players with a sense of accomplishment?
I'm astonished that many of the people replying in this thread view their own defense of the mindless grind as somehow standing up for Roleplaying or "deep gameplay" or what have you! It should be very obvious to anyone that has ever PnP role-played or even been intrigued at what a true virtual world would look like that the grind mechanism that EQ popularized was the absolute worst thing to happen to MMORPGs. If only UO had become the template for MMORPGs instead of EQ, huh? If only...
If there's one thing positive one can say about WoW in this regard it is its decision to emphasize questing over pure grinding. Of course, many of WoW's quests ultimately come down to killing 10 of this or 20 of that, so it's still the grind just camoflauged a bit better, but at least it's a step in the right direction, albeit incrementally.
I've been playing MMORPGs for going on 10 years now, and, to be honest, it's getting to be an utter drag. If I have to kill 10 more of this or 15 more of that...I mean, honestly, going on 10 years of MMORPGs and 20 years of CRPGs and designers are still falling back on the crutch of Fed Ex delivery quests and Kill the Foozle quests to create 90% of their game's quest content? WTF? Character progression is based totally and solely around filling up that string of little blue dots at the bottom of your screen by performing the same type of action over and over again? How is this role-playing? How is this immersion?
I'm not saying I know the answer to these questions, but in my opinion, an MMORPG cannot be considered a 3rd Gen MMORPG without at least trying to answer them. All I know is that returning to an EQ type of game play (note: I don't mean difficulty level, I mean the actual meat of the game - i.e., what the player must do most of the time in game in order to accomplish anything) is not the answer.
what these online games really need is to incorporate more than just combat and armor training. for this game some examples would be to have to eventually "weed out" loot rewards....and make the weapon system dependant on other players.....mounts should be trained and sold....not bought from an npc....etc....
the diplomacy is something that is in the right direction. players should have a ton of non combat options which in turn will keep combat more exciting.
kuzseamer
if the game world itself doesn't draw the player in, they're not going to care about making that journey. They'll just be interested in getting to the good stuff (i.e., end game content, raids, uber gear, etc.) as quickly as possible.
I know one or two do get that feeling from Vanguard. But it's turely just one or two =op