...shamans are hybrids, and although it would be very cool if it can surpass any of the trinity classes, it would kill the entire purpose of those pure trinity classes if a hybrid can beat them. if a shaman can outheal priests, then what's the point of having priests as a class? same goes for the other classes.
I am sorry, but this argument is just nonsense. Why should a rogue deal as much damage as a mage? Remove the rogue. Why should a warlock deal as much DPS as a mage? Remove the warlock. What people like you always forget is to look at the classes as a whole. Every class has it's own utility. This is the reason why you bring various classes to the raid.
In fact, to be rude, the argument "then what's the point of having priests as a class" mostly comes from those players who fail to utilize their class to the max. If you reduce your class to only one button spaming - then yes, there's no reason to have multiple classes ...
Yes, but almost every class has utility, and only one (Paladin) is noticeably strong in this area.
Currently a mixture of dps and healing classes is brought to raids because each offers utility and they have broadly similar dps/healing if played well.
If one class should fall noticeably behind in dps or healing power then they will either cease to get raid places or places will become very limited.
For example, priests main utility is being able to buff fort, spirit and shadow res. They can also CC undead. If priests at some point fall noticeably behind in healing power, then, apart from for undead heavy areas, what is the point of taking more than one priest buffbot on your 25 man raid?
No matter what your idealistic leanings, places are given to people on raids based on their perceived ability to dps or heal. And a large part of that perception is based on prejudices about class.
The content rewards people who set up groups/raids on a min/max framework: max tanking, max spanking, max healing. It's because Blizzard made the content to scale difficulty principally by increasing mob DPS and HP, so you need tanking, spanking and healing in good measure. In order to do that most effectively, you want the folks who are most effective at the various roles to be in the raid -- very simple and easy to see why people min/max. The content demands it.
Whether a hybrid is useful in that context depends mostly on the number of slots available, how well they heal compared to other healers they have available, and whether the raid leader wants the specific utilities that the hybrid in question has (be they Paladin buffs, priest abilities against undead, druid innervates and battle rezzes, etc.). That's why Blizzard made all the hybrid classes capable of healing, because in their tank/spank/heal paradigm they had to find a place for the hybrids to go, and for the most part Blizzard intends them to be healers in that context.
Quite simple, there are no nerfed classes in this game. All are viable. Simply a matter of understand the strengths and weaknesses of any particular class and using that knowledge to play effectively.
This is not DAoC, where they swing the nerf bat with abandon and never really ever balanced the classes.
a good warrior with good gear can easily top the damage meters.
for raids, full fury with a bit of arms spec can and will do this.
for PVP full arms spec with a bit of fury will make you very, very deadly in PVP.
warriors are 90% gear, 10% talent spec. I OT for my guild as Fury/Protection hyrbid. I tank well when I need to tank, and DPS well when I need to dps. I carry two complete sets of gear at all times.
that being said, the only real "nerf" warriors have is that our ability to generate threat and thus hold agro and tank did NOT rise at the same comparitive rate as the threat other classes can produce through healing/dealing damage.
this just makes tanks work harder, which isn't a bad thing, I'd say 2/3 of tanking is the healers/dps knowing how to play their class, if they don't, that other 1/3 kicks in and we tanks have to work hard lol
but I wouldn't mind if they buffed our Defiance ( +threat % ) talent up from 15% to like 25-30%
The content rewards people who set up groups/raids on a min/max framework: max tanking, max spanking, max healing. It's because Blizzard made the content to scale difficulty principally by increasing mob DPS and HP, so you need tanking, spanking and healing in good measure. In order to do that most effectively, you want the folks who are most effective at the various roles to be in the raid -- very simple and easy to see why people min/max. The content demands it.
Whether a hybrid is useful in that context depends mostly on the number of slots available, how well they heal compared to other healers they have available, and whether the raid leader wants the specific utilities that the hybrid in question has (be they Paladin buffs, priest abilities against undead, druid innervates and battle rezzes, etc.). That's why Blizzard made all the hybrid classes capable of healing, because in their tank/spank/heal paradigm they had to find a place for the hybrids to go, and for the most part Blizzard intends them to be healers in that context.
Yep! that must exactly be the reason why existed whole programs dedicated to remove curses from raiders.... Oh wait! but that is not dps! and is not HP either!
That must also be why there exists programs with helpful aids for Boss's behaviour, why you RUN when Boss X starts to glow and why getting yourself in lava is not a good idea...
That must also be why Horde has an harder time in encounters because they lacked Paladins.... but wait! aren't paladins just healers/dps/tank hybrids? so why Horde would have any problems? Dunno, but maybe you can explain it to me.
"If you give a man a fish, you feed him for a day, if you teach him how to fish, you feed him for a lifetime"
My vote is mage, i have played the original wow, a freind of mine downloaded it, and with proper gear and no buffing from being a private server a mage was capable of 7k+ crits, now they are down to 3-4 at max, altho they are the most nerfed class you cant really complain my main is a mage and its not so much nerfing as balancing.
personally i dont think the question should be "who has been nerfed the most?" "as who needs the most nerfing?"
personally i think lock DOTs need nerfing, a my 60 mage can 2 and 3 hit a lock, but then dies if i cannot get out of combat because they eat my 3.4k health out with DOTs. the way this needs to be done is lock dies= DOTs instantly fade, they should not be able to kill things after dieing so easily, no other class can, if a shaman dies his totems fade instantly.
Shamans need some kind of nerf, i dont actually know how to, but giving them dual wield was the most retarded idea on the planet. purge spam groudning totem and stormstrike means that if a shaman knows a mage is there, the mage is F#*ked. they WTFPwn everything but the best kiting hunters a stunlock rogue, even then the rogue has trouble, and the best DPS fury warriors. if you look at it, a duel wielding SS shammy has the chance of hitting you 8 times in 2 seconds, and if they crit in that then they hit 30% faster and if they are specced they hit harder too and get mana back. they need a nerf, even if its say a 5 second CD on the WF proc and a mass increase to the mana cost of purge. also presence of mind SHOULD NOT be purgable.
Druids. they got nerfed, but they got buffed too. moonkin will now Pwn mellee classes more now that its like being in bear form. its literally a mage with no +Dmg gear but in mail. HOT X2 +bear form= near on impossible to kill. you just have to outlast the heal over times and hope that you can kill them b4 they redo them.
Shamans need some kind of nerf, i dont actually know how to, but giving them dual wield was the most retarded idea on the planet. purge spam groudning totem and stormstrike means that if a shaman knows a mage is there, the mage is F#*ked. they WTFPwn everything but the best kiting hunters a stunlock rogue, even then the rogue has trouble, and the best DPS fury warriors. if you look at it, a duel wielding SS shammy has the chance of hitting you 8 times in 2 seconds, and if they crit in that then they hit 30% faster and if they are specced they hit harder too and get mana back. they need a nerf, even if its say a 5 second CD on the WF proc and a mass increase to the mana cost of purge. also presence of mind SHOULD NOT be purgable.
Any serious consideration of whether a class should be nerfed / buffed for PvP should be done based on statistics.
Analysis should be made based on battleground results at each level bracket, recording things like:
- What is the average number of kills a member of this class achieves in each battleground
- What is the average number of times a member of this classes dies in each battleground
- What is the average healing/second contributed by a member of this class in battlegrounds
With a bit of cleverness, classes could be subdivided according to spec - e.g. the performance of resto druids should not affect balancing decisions for ferals or moonkins.
I very much suspect Blizzard has access to statistics like this and uses them. I wouldn't be surprised if they also track PvE statistics (e.g. proportion of each class in a typical raid).
Without access to such statistics, any discussion of which class needs to be nerfed / buffed is essentially meaningless.
So rather than asking Blizzard to "Nerf class X" or "Stop nerfing my class into oblivion" what we should be asking Blizzard to do is to release hard data on how the classes perform. Then we could have an informed debate rather than a sequence of highly biased personal opinions.
I believe that all classes should be able to do they same amount of damage just in their specific ways I.E. Warrior - Great Melee Damage - Rely on lots of armour and high HP pool to save them Rogue - Great Melee Damage - Rely on High Agility/dodge and invisibility to save them Hunter - Great Ranged Weapon Damage - Rely on Kiting/dodge and pet to save them Mage - Great spell damage - Rely on Kiting and Mesmer/polymorph to save them Warlock - Great curse/dot damage - Rely on Fear and Pet to save them Druid - Good Melee and Spell damage - Rely on Shapechange and Heals to save them Shaman - Good Melee and Spell damage - Rely on Kiting/totems and heal ability to save them Paladin - Great Melee Damage - Rely on armour and heal spelss to save them Priest - Great shadow spell damage - Realy on Shielding and fast healing to save them Side Note: Warrior so far is leading the poll with priest second
Btw - you misunderstand several of the classes:
e.g.
hunters rely on kiting + traps to save them. Their dodge is weak compared to a rogues dodge, and is rarely enough to save them against any pure melee class.
priests - rely on shielding, and fear to save them. Note - if they have great shadow damage, they are in shadow form, so can't do any direct heals (although vampiric embrace (?) helps).
warlock - rely on fear, pet and high hp to save them - don't underestimate the warlocks relatively high HP pool as a defensive resource.
hunters rely on kiting + traps to save them. Their dodge is weak compared to a rogues dodge, and is rarely enough to save them against any pure melee class.
priests - rely on shielding, and fear to save them. Note - if they have great shadow damage, they are in shadow form, so can't do any direct heals (although vampiric embrace (?) helps).
warlock - rely on fear, pet and high hp to save them - don't underestimate the warlocks relatively high HP pool as a defensive resource.
No, i believe they should have what i have stated, im not stating what is but just what i believe that might balance things, and as i stated for Paladins that they should have good not the melee expertise of warriors and rogues damage requiring them to take longer whilst killing something due to their heal abilities and high armour.
as for priests i personally do not like the way they build and the options you have with them (its kinda one way or the other i.e. either you dps or you heal)
And as for warlocks - I HATE WARLOCKS (they kill me way to often, class i have the biggest problem with)
There is a very good reason why the games based on holly trinity (tank/healer/dps) fail utterly in balance when they try to appeal to everyone by blurring the three archeotypes too much.
I can all too clearly remember the period when the highest dps-er in our raid group was a fury speced warrior. That was just SO wrong on every level.
You basically had a class that could out-dps, all the REAL dps classes like the rogue and mage and take one hell of a beating before he came down.
Yes blizzard nerfed the warrior class hard- but it had to be done, in order to preserve any semblance of balance you have to equate survivability/damage output.
I wont even touch the hunter class here as that is a whole new can of worms that has been opened way to many times without it making a difference (ummm a hybrid with the high dps potential,both ranged and melee attacks, second best survivability, an agro wipe AND a pet... someone in blizzard had their brains on a holiday when they came up with that concept)
As far as the most nerfed class... well It really depends on the flavor of the month.
As in all other similar games healers will have the most diffuclt time soloing due to the fact they had to exchange both dps and survivability for heals. While the tanks will be a bit better off in terms what they can solo- but it will take forever for them to do it.
But what it all comes down to is this: This is a MMO, grouping is the key to playing such kind of a game- and both healers and tanks are HEAVILY sought out in groups.
If you want to solo, choose a dps or a hybrid (yuck) class.
yes i did restate my original statement, but then its not a true to "RPG's". You must remember that RPG's are all based on fiction and fantasy. This is what im saying, and with saying that i believe the Warrior is the most nerfed class when it comes to damage, but i also stated that i hadnt played many classes and was looking at other poeple's opinion on what their thoughts were on the most nerfed class and so far i can see that the priest has been wuite nerfed itself aswell. Although with consideration to RPG the priest (also knows as clerics) is actually doing is job which is heal :P and buffs.
Now if you go play a proper RPG (eg. Baldur's Gate Series - I know its not a MMO but it is a RPG) you will see that being a warrior main class is awesome due to heavy armour plus heavy damage output.
I am kinda newbie to MMO's considering the amount of experience others on this site have had, but i aint a newbie to the rpg scene been playing RPG's before they came out on any Gaming console (D&D for eg.) and the warrior in all these RPG's were not nerfed to the point where the damage is minimal. Warriors are supposed to be the melee experts, thats why we choose them, because we want to play with big swords and axes, but with rogues out DPSing us, which in turn them makes them the Melee expert, we have been reduced to "Armour Expert".
If you want to validate this go take a look at the Wizards of the Coast character sheets (They bought out TNR inc. who made the first commercial RPG game: Dungeons & Dragons) and go have a look at their descriptions of each class. And in the first D&D game there were three classes: "The Fighting Man (the melee expert), The Magic User (the magic expert) and the Cleric (The buffs and healing/poison-disease removing expert)"
Now all im trying to say is that the version of the warrior in WoW and other MMO's which claim to be RPG's is not true to its name.
Ok to Natob from what I gather (please correct me if I am wrong here) You believe warriors in WoW should be more front line damage dealers. What i'm haveing a problem with this is I don't understand what you want from the class. Dps Warriors generally
need better gear than most to truely shine and do very good dps. Most of the ones that I have seen in raiding guilds hit at least the top
five in damage. So are you asking to be a full on tank (prot spec) and still top the damage lists?
Yes their damage has been nerfed, but it was getting out of control. When your damage comes from your normal strikes and skills
that add weapon damage + X, and you add new weapons with higher dps to this game at the high end warrior dps starts out stripping
the pure dps classes such as mages. Mages are limited to their current spells at max level then trying to amass a whole set of + damage gear. When all the warrior would have to do is get 1 drop from random high level instance and he would start pulling more dps than the mage. Now this reduces dps on the warrior low end of gear, but the higher end remains relatively the same. So it
comes down to the fact that you probably can do very good dps as a warrior, you just have to attain a good peice of gear to do it.
So are you asking to be able to take a tanking class and make it generate good dps with out any effort into the class?
You mentioned some thing about being a melee expert. Something you said you took from D&D (i'm sure this is quite true).
So what does not make you a melee expert. You can use every melee weapon in the game with all of your skills( can't remember
any skills or talents that require specific weapons as a warrior. correct me if I am wrong on this). When I personally hear Melee
expert I think of a guy who can take any weapon and effectively use it against his opponent. Now you could construe that to mean
that you should also be an expert and dishing out damage in melee combat, but the title is a bit to vauge to be definate so that comes
down to personal opnion on the subject. Rogues are not melee experts at most they are single target damage experts.
They can only utilize about 3 weapons but most stick to sword or dagger. And if they choose a type of weapon they may not be able to
use certain skills at all.
Since were on D&D warriors were good dps in D&D the best not at all. A rogue or a mage would be tons better at doing damage than
the warrior. At low levels the warrior is a better choice in D&D for damage it's a relatively safe class doesn't die easy and if you build right constantly does damage. But the mage and the rogue in that game are late bloomers. At level 20 a mage can cast a multitude of spells. The most noteable (and overpowered) being time stop. When you can launch 5 spells at a target in the span of a second he's kind of unstopable. If a mage can prepair for a battle the opponent doesn't really stand a chance. A rogue in D&D gets what like
10d6(can't remember exacly what it is at 20) on every single attack from each weapon. I'm not going to do averages here, but with 6 possible attacks total at max the rogue would do what 360 damage just from sneak attacks.
Anyway to sum up here:
Warriors in WoW do good dps, just not the best. And generally in other fantasy settings it is the same way. So what do you acutally want from the class. Do you just want to be a meat sheild that can dish out huge damage better than anyone else? If so then that's probably never going to happen. Why whould anyone play any other class? There would be literally two classes in the game The tank
and they guy who heals the tank. Heck if they did enough dps you whouldn't even need the other guy. And if everyone does the same dps, just in different flavors and defenses aren't we all just playing the same class that can do the same thing.
Edit---
oh to actually answer your question warrior is probably the most nerfed class, but does that mean its sub par being ruined? probably not, it just means that its the easyiest to break the balace of when adding new things to the game.
There is a very good reason why the games based on holly trinity (tank/healer/dps) fail utterly in balance when they try to appeal to everyone by blurring the three archeotypes too much.
I can all too clearly remember the period when the highest dps-er in our raid group was a fury speced warrior. That was just SO wrong on every level.
You basically had a class that could out-dps, all the REAL dps classes like the rogue and mage and take one hell of a beating before he came down.
Yes blizzard nerfed the warrior class hard- but it had to be done, in order to preserve any semblance of balance you have to equate survivability/damage output.
I wont even touch the hunter class here as that is a whole new can of worms that has been opened way to many times without it making a difference (ummm a hybrid with the high dps potential,both ranged and melee attacks, second best survivability, an agro wipe AND a pet... someone in blizzard had their brains on a holiday when they came up with that concept)
As far as the most nerfed class... well It really depends on the flavor of the month.
As in all other similar games healers will have the most diffuclt time soloing due to the fact they had to exchange both dps and survivability for heals. While the tanks will be a bit better off in terms what they can solo- but it will take forever for them to do it.
But what it all comes down to is this: This is a MMO, grouping is the key to playing such kind of a game- and both healers and tanks are HEAVILY sought out in groups.
If you want to solo, choose a dps or a hybrid (yuck) class.
yes i did restate my original statement, but then its not a true to "RPG's". You must remember that RPG's are all based on fiction and fantasy. This is what im saying, and with saying that i believe the Warrior is the most nerfed class when it comes to damage, but i also stated that i hadnt played many classes and was looking at other poeple's opinion on what their thoughts were on the most nerfed class and so far i can see that the priest has been wuite nerfed itself aswell. Although with consideration to RPG the priest (also knows as clerics) is actually doing is job which is heal :P and buffs.
Now if you go play a proper RPG (eg. Baldur's Gate Series - I know its not a MMO but it is a RPG) you will see that being a warrior main class is awesome due to heavy armour plus heavy damage output.
I am kinda newbie to MMO's considering the amount of experience others on this site have had, but i aint a newbie to the rpg scene been playing RPG's before they came out on any Gaming console (D&D for eg.) and the warrior in all these RPG's were not nerfed to the point where the damage is minimal. Warriors are supposed to be the melee experts, thats why we choose them, because we want to play with big swords and axes, but with rogues out DPSing us, which in turn them makes them the Melee expert, we have been reduced to "Armour Expert".
If you want to validate this go take a look at the Wizards of the Coast character sheets (They bought out TNR inc. who made the first commercial RPG game: Dungeons & Dragons) and go have a look at their descriptions of each class. And in the first D&D game there were three classes: "The Fighting Man (the melee expert), The Magic User (the magic expert) and the Cleric (The buffs and healing/poison-disease removing expert)"
Now all im trying to say is that the version of the warrior in WoW and other MMO's which claim to be RPG's is not true to its name.
Ok to Natob from what I gather (please correct me if I am wrong here) You believe warriors in WoW should be more front line damage dealers. What i'm haveing a problem with this is I don't understand what you want from the class. Dps Warriors generally
need better gear than most to truely shine and do very good dps. Most of the ones that I have seen in raiding guilds hit at least the top
five in damage. So are you asking to be a full on tank (prot spec) and still top the damage lists?
Yes their damage has been nerfed, but it was getting out of control. When your damage comes from your normal strikes and skills
that add weapon damage + X, and you add new weapons with higher dps to this game at the high end warrior dps starts out stripping
the pure dps classes such as mages. Mages are limited to their current spells at max level then trying to amass a whole set of + damage gear. When all the warrior would have to do is get 1 drop from random high level instance and he would start pulling more dps than the mage. Now this reduces dps on the warrior low end of gear, but the higher end remains relatively the same. So it
comes down to the fact that you probably can do very good dps as a warrior, you just have to attain a good peice of gear to do it.
So are you asking to be able to take a tanking class and make it generate good dps with out any effort into the class?
You mentioned some thing about being a melee expert. Something you said you took from D&D (i'm sure this is quite true).
So what does not make you a melee expert. You can use every melee weapon in the game with all of your skills( can't remember
any skills or talents that require specific weapons as a warrior. correct me if I am wrong on this). When I personally hear Melee
expert I think of a guy who can take any weapon and effectively use it against his opponent. Now you could construe that to mean
that you should also be an expert and dishing out damage in melee combat, but the title is a bit to vauge to be definate so that comes
down to personal opnion on the subject. Rogues are not melee experts at most they are single target damage experts.
They can only utilize about 3 weapons but most stick to sword or dagger. And if they choose a type of weapon they may not be able to
use certain skills at all.
Since were on D&D warriors were good dps in D&D the best not at all. A rogue or a mage would be tons better at doing damage than
the warrior. At low levels the warrior is a better choice in D&D for damage it's a relatively safe class doesn't die easy and if you build right constantly does damage. But the mage and the rogue in that game are late bloomers. At level 20 a mage can cast a multitude of spells. The most noteable (and overpowered) being time stop. When you can launch 5 spells at a target in the span of a second he's kind of unstopable. If a mage can prepair for a battle the opponent doesn't really stand a chance. A rogue in D&D gets what like
10d6(can't remember exacly what it is at 20) on every single attack from each weapon. I'm not going to do averages here, but with 6 possible attacks total at max the rogue would do what 360 damage just from sneak attacks.
Anyway to sum up here:
Warriors in WoW do good dps, just not the best. And generally in other fantasy settings it is the same way. So what do you acutally want from the class. Do you just want to be a meat sheild that can dish out huge damage better than anyone else? If so then that's probably never going to happen. Why whould anyone play any other class? There would be literally two classes in the game The tank
and they guy who heals the tank. Heck if they did enough dps you whouldn't even need the other guy. And if everyone does the same dps, just in different flavors and defenses aren't we all just playing the same class that can do the same thing.
Edit---
oh to actually answer your question warrior is probably the most nerfed class, but does that mean its sub par being ruined? probably not, it just means that its the easyiest to break the balace of when adding new things to the game.
You are getting my point, yet i dont want them to be put on the top of all dps. What you need to do is go play a warrior and see what i mean. If I have to wait untill im lvl 70 (which is not to soon) to get all the good gear to become a good damage dealer then ok not to bad, but getting to 70 has been a tough ride. I have levelled my mage up way faster than my warrior due to way way way less downtime (I.E. i kill everything way faster)
I just want the warrior to deal a good amount of damage thats all.
I mean i do enjoy tanking, its fun, and it gives a nice responsibility when playing with my guild or PUGS.
Blizzard has actually tried to buff our class a bit, with the last patch i could def see better rage generation than before. So maybe there is hope.
I have played a warrior actually. I think I have one on some pvp server that I stopped playing at like 48 or 50. And it was horrible to level mainly because of being on a old pvp server. As a warrior in pvp my choices really were win the fight or die. There really was no escape option. The problem with being a non max level warrior is that as you level gear tends to go out of date quickly, and in order to keep up you have to resort to buying new key peices of gear to bring your dps and armor values up.
What happens at 70 is not some weird thing where you all the sudden have all these abilitys that are created and the moons align, then poof the magic happens. It's basicly that you no longer out level your gear, and you can still get new and better gear. You'll need to amass a set of better dps gear at 70. So you'll basicly need to hit 70 and spend some time gearing up to get better dps out of your warrior.
Oh and if your leveling as fury(which i did btw) enjoy that cause it sucks unless you can find some above average 1 handers. not sure about the post 60 pre 70 landscape of 1 handed weapons, but I was basicly stuck with the same two weapons for long while.
A friend of mine has a level 49 fury warrior she uses for PVP. She has gone out of her way to get good equipment, earning money from mining and spending approximately 300 gold on getting good equipment and enchants.
She regularly tops battlegrounds in terms of both kills and damage done. So if there are any problems with warriors, it is in terms of how gear dependent they are, not in their potential.
Warriors need to regularly visit instances in order to keep their gear up to date, and to occasionally buy items from the AH. Any warrior who tries to level just through grinding without even visiting the AH (a viable strategy for clothies and hunters) will experience problems.
A friend of mine has a level 49 fury warrior she uses for PVP. She has gone out of her way to get good equipment, earning money from mining and spending approximately 300 gold on getting good equipment and enchants.
She regularly tops battlegrounds in terms of both kills and damage done. So if there are any problems with warriors, it is in terms of how gear dependent they are, not in their potential.
Warriors need to regularly visit instances in order to keep their gear up to date, and to occasionally buy items from the AH. Any warrior who tries to level just through grinding without even visiting the AH (a viable strategy for clothies and hunters) will experience problems.
Too true, this is where my problem lies. I visit as many instances as i can to get better gear and in doing that i level wayyy to slow compared to everyone else in my guild.
And for someone that does not have a main and plays on a server like mine where prices a way to high (thanks to goldfarmers) it makes it next to impossible to get any valuable and usefell item off the AH
What has always been a problem with WoW is an utterly crapy original balance concept with itemisation that didnt account for adding epic gear at late levels. So you have Melee classes that boost their dps through 1 ( yes, ONE) item- the weapon. All the other gear slots are free perks for enchancing that dps even further, adding survivability or whatnot. On the other side of the coin you have casters. They dont have the luxury of basing their dps on 1 item, but have to imput an incredible amount of effort into getting a ful set of gear that would amount to a scalable dps increase, loosing any real choice for gear customisation. So a melee dps-er gets 1 item and upgrades his/her dps for let say 10%, now imagine how many items it would take for a caster to make the same improvement?
Alas that problem looks like it is there to stay untill the day WoW shuts it's door.
i think druids seem to be tinkered with a lot...i would say that they would be nerfed the most but also buffed back up too then nerfed again....its just blizzard not knowing what they want to do with the druid or something and having so many people complain about one class being stronger or something than the one they use...i think that anyone could kill anyone else if the circumstances are right...its based on gear and skill for anyone...theres almost no point in complaining about something as petty as someone getting maybe a marginal amount more hp than another or anything else like that...i hate hearing "oh wah my mage gets beat up because warlocks have too much hp" or "wah my warrior is being beat down because i suck..." come on....its a matter of skill and gear...know how and when to use certain spells and you wont get ganked by others as bad... remember: theres always going to be someone out there whos better than you and they can beat you, you are not the best or smartest player in the game...thats the beauty of an mmo...challenge...
Comments
I am sorry, but this argument is just nonsense. Why should a rogue deal as much damage as a mage? Remove the rogue. Why should a warlock deal as much DPS as a mage? Remove the warlock.
What people like you always forget is to look at the classes as a whole. Every class has it's own utility. This is the reason why you bring various classes to the raid.
In fact, to be rude, the argument "then what's the point of having priests as a class" mostly comes from those players who fail to utilize their class to the max. If you reduce your class to only one button spaming - then yes, there's no reason to have multiple classes ...
Currently a mixture of dps and healing classes is brought to raids because each offers utility and they have broadly similar dps/healing if played well.
If one class should fall noticeably behind in dps or healing power then they will either cease to get raid places or places will become very limited.
For example, priests main utility is being able to buff fort, spirit and shadow res. They can also CC undead. If priests at some point fall noticeably behind in healing power, then, apart from for undead heavy areas, what is the point of taking more than one priest buffbot on your 25 man raid?
No matter what your idealistic leanings, places are given to people on raids based on their perceived ability to dps or heal. And a large part of that perception is based on prejudices about class.
D&D Home Page - What Class Are You? - Build A Character - D&D Compendium
The content rewards people who set up groups/raids on a min/max framework: max tanking, max spanking, max healing. It's because Blizzard made the content to scale difficulty principally by increasing mob DPS and HP, so you need tanking, spanking and healing in good measure. In order to do that most effectively, you want the folks who are most effective at the various roles to be in the raid -- very simple and easy to see why people min/max. The content demands it.
Whether a hybrid is useful in that context depends mostly on the number of slots available, how well they heal compared to other healers they have available, and whether the raid leader wants the specific utilities that the hybrid in question has (be they Paladin buffs, priest abilities against undead, druid innervates and battle rezzes, etc.). That's why Blizzard made all the hybrid classes capable of healing, because in their tank/spank/heal paradigm they had to find a place for the hybrids to go, and for the most part Blizzard intends them to be healers in that context.
Quite simple, there are no nerfed classes in this game. All are viable. Simply a matter of understand the strengths and weaknesses of any particular class and using that knowledge to play effectively.
This is not DAoC, where they swing the nerf bat with abandon and never really ever balanced the classes.
a good warrior with good gear can easily top the damage meters.
for raids, full fury with a bit of arms spec can and will do this.
for PVP full arms spec with a bit of fury will make you very, very deadly in PVP.
warriors are 90% gear, 10% talent spec. I OT for my guild as Fury/Protection hyrbid. I tank well when I need to tank, and DPS well when I need to dps. I carry two complete sets of gear at all times.
that being said, the only real "nerf" warriors have is that our ability to generate threat and thus hold agro and tank did NOT rise at the same comparitive rate as the threat other classes can produce through healing/dealing damage.
this just makes tanks work harder, which isn't a bad thing, I'd say 2/3 of tanking is the healers/dps knowing how to play their class, if they don't, that other 1/3 kicks in and we tanks have to work hard lol
but I wouldn't mind if they buffed our Defiance ( +threat % ) talent up from 15% to like 25-30%
ITS NOT CALLED NERFED - ITS BALANCING THE CLASS
Yep! that must exactly be the reason why existed whole programs dedicated to remove curses from raiders.... Oh wait! but that is not dps! and is not HP either!
That must also be why there exists programs with helpful aids for Boss's behaviour, why you RUN when Boss X starts to glow and why getting yourself in lava is not a good idea...
That must also be why Horde has an harder time in encounters because they lacked Paladins.... but wait! aren't paladins just healers/dps/tank hybrids? so why Horde would have any problems? Dunno, but maybe you can explain it to me.
"If you give a man a fish, you feed him for a day, if you teach him how to fish, you feed him for a lifetime"
Priests (Holy & Disc) no contest!
My vote is mage, i have played the original wow, a freind of mine downloaded it, and with proper gear and no buffing from being a private server a mage was capable of 7k+ crits, now they are down to 3-4 at max, altho they are the most nerfed class you cant really complain my main is a mage and its not so much nerfing as balancing.
personally i dont think the question should be "who has been nerfed the most?" "as who needs the most nerfing?"
personally i think lock DOTs need nerfing, a my 60 mage can 2 and 3 hit a lock, but then dies if i cannot get out of combat because they eat my 3.4k health out with DOTs. the way this needs to be done is lock dies= DOTs instantly fade, they should not be able to kill things after dieing so easily, no other class can, if a shaman dies his totems fade instantly.
Shamans need some kind of nerf, i dont actually know how to, but giving them dual wield was the most retarded idea on the planet. purge spam groudning totem and stormstrike means that if a shaman knows a mage is there, the mage is F#*ked. they WTFPwn everything but the best kiting hunters a stunlock rogue, even then the rogue has trouble, and the best DPS fury warriors. if you look at it, a duel wielding SS shammy has the chance of hitting you 8 times in 2 seconds, and if they crit in that then they hit 30% faster and if they are specced they hit harder too and get mana back. they need a nerf, even if its say a 5 second CD on the WF proc and a mass increase to the mana cost of purge. also presence of mind SHOULD NOT be purgable.
Druids. they got nerfed, but they got buffed too. moonkin will now Pwn mellee classes more now that its like being in bear form. its literally a mage with no +Dmg gear but in mail. HOT X2 +bear form= near on impossible to kill. you just have to outlast the heal over times and hope that you can kill them b4 they redo them.
Live, Breath, Cause. HaVoK
I loled
Analysis should be made based on battleground results at each level bracket, recording things like:
- What is the average number of kills a member of this class achieves in each battleground
- What is the average number of times a member of this classes dies in each battleground
- What is the average healing/second contributed by a member of this class in battlegrounds
With a bit of cleverness, classes could be subdivided according to spec - e.g. the performance of resto druids should not affect balancing decisions for ferals or moonkins.
I very much suspect Blizzard has access to statistics like this and uses them. I wouldn't be surprised if they also track PvE statistics (e.g. proportion of each class in a typical raid).
Without access to such statistics, any discussion of which class needs to be nerfed / buffed is essentially meaningless.
So rather than asking Blizzard to "Nerf class X" or "Stop nerfing my class into oblivion" what we should be asking Blizzard to do is to release hard data on how the classes perform. Then we could have an informed debate rather than a sequence of highly biased personal opinions.
D&D Home Page - What Class Are You? - Build A Character - D&D Compendium
I believe that all classes should be able to do they same amount of damage just in their specific ways
I.E.
Warrior - Great Melee Damage - Rely on lots of armour and high HP pool to save them
Rogue - Great Melee Damage - Rely on High Agility/dodge and invisibility to save them
Hunter - Great Ranged Weapon Damage - Rely on Kiting/dodge and pet to save them
Mage - Great spell damage - Rely on Kiting and Mesmer/polymorph to save them
Warlock - Great curse/dot damage - Rely on Fear and Pet to save them
Druid - Good Melee and Spell damage - Rely on Shapechange and Heals to save them
Shaman - Good Melee and Spell damage - Rely on Kiting/totems and heal ability to save them
Paladin - Great Melee Damage - Rely on armour and heal spelss to save them
Priest - Great shadow spell damage - Realy on Shielding and fast healing to save them
Side Note: Warrior so far is leading the poll with priest second
Which Final Fantasy Character Are You?
Final Fantasy
I found it hard
It's hard to find
Oh Well
Whatever
Nevermind
So when balancing the game you would want to completely ignore facts such as:
Some classes (e.g. Paladins) are defensively much stronger than others
Some classes can heal whilst others can't
Any attempt to balance the game should take into account all aspects of play.
D&D Home Page - What Class Are You? - Build A Character - D&D Compendium
e.g.
hunters rely on kiting + traps to save them. Their dodge is weak compared to a rogues dodge, and is rarely enough to save them against any pure melee class.
priests - rely on shielding, and fear to save them. Note - if they have great shadow damage, they are in shadow form, so can't do any direct heals (although vampiric embrace (?) helps).
warlock - rely on fear, pet and high hp to save them - don't underestimate the warlocks relatively high HP pool as a defensive resource.
D&D Home Page - What Class Are You? - Build A Character - D&D Compendium
No, i believe they should have what i have stated, im not stating what is but just what i believe that might balance things, and as i stated for Paladins that they should have good not the melee expertise of warriors and rogues damage requiring them to take longer whilst killing something due to their heal abilities and high armour.
as for priests i personally do not like the way they build and the options you have with them (its kinda one way or the other i.e. either you dps or you heal)
And as for warlocks - I HATE WARLOCKS (they kill me way to often, class i have the biggest problem with)
Which Final Fantasy Character Are You?
Final Fantasy
I found it hard
It's hard to find
Oh Well
Whatever
Nevermind
At least they partially fixed "rage nerfalisation" though.
yes i did restate my original statement, but then its not a true to "RPG's". You must remember that RPG's are all based on fiction and fantasy. This is what im saying, and with saying that i believe the Warrior is the most nerfed class when it comes to damage, but i also stated that i hadnt played many classes and was looking at other poeple's opinion on what their thoughts were on the most nerfed class and so far i can see that the priest has been wuite nerfed itself aswell. Although with consideration to RPG the priest (also knows as clerics) is actually doing is job which is heal :P and buffs.
Now if you go play a proper RPG (eg. Baldur's Gate Series - I know its not a MMO but it is a RPG) you will see that being a warrior main class is awesome due to heavy armour plus heavy damage output.
I am kinda newbie to MMO's considering the amount of experience others on this site have had, but i aint a newbie to the rpg scene been playing RPG's before they came out on any Gaming console (D&D for eg.) and the warrior in all these RPG's were not nerfed to the point where the damage is minimal. Warriors are supposed to be the melee experts, thats why we choose them, because we want to play with big swords and axes, but with rogues out DPSing us, which in turn them makes them the Melee expert, we have been reduced to "Armour Expert".
If you want to validate this go take a look at the Wizards of the Coast character sheets (They bought out TNR inc. who made the first commercial RPG game: Dungeons & Dragons) and go have a look at their descriptions of each class. And in the first D&D game there were three classes: "The Fighting Man (the melee expert), The Magic User (the magic expert) and the Cleric (The buffs and healing/poison-disease removing expert)"
Now all im trying to say is that the version of the warrior in WoW and other MMO's which claim to be RPG's is not true to its name.
Ok to Natob from what I gather (please correct me if I am wrong here) You believe warriors in WoW should be more front line damage dealers. What i'm haveing a problem with this is I don't understand what you want from the class. Dps Warriors generallyneed better gear than most to truely shine and do very good dps. Most of the ones that I have seen in raiding guilds hit at least the top
five in damage. So are you asking to be a full on tank (prot spec) and still top the damage lists?
Yes their damage has been nerfed, but it was getting out of control. When your damage comes from your normal strikes and skills
that add weapon damage + X, and you add new weapons with higher dps to this game at the high end warrior dps starts out stripping
the pure dps classes such as mages. Mages are limited to their current spells at max level then trying to amass a whole set of + damage gear. When all the warrior would have to do is get 1 drop from random high level instance and he would start pulling more dps than the mage. Now this reduces dps on the warrior low end of gear, but the higher end remains relatively the same. So it
comes down to the fact that you probably can do very good dps as a warrior, you just have to attain a good peice of gear to do it.
So are you asking to be able to take a tanking class and make it generate good dps with out any effort into the class?
You mentioned some thing about being a melee expert. Something you said you took from D&D (i'm sure this is quite true).
So what does not make you a melee expert. You can use every melee weapon in the game with all of your skills( can't remember
any skills or talents that require specific weapons as a warrior. correct me if I am wrong on this). When I personally hear Melee
expert I think of a guy who can take any weapon and effectively use it against his opponent. Now you could construe that to mean
that you should also be an expert and dishing out damage in melee combat, but the title is a bit to vauge to be definate so that comes
down to personal opnion on the subject. Rogues are not melee experts at most they are single target damage experts.
They can only utilize about 3 weapons but most stick to sword or dagger. And if they choose a type of weapon they may not be able to
use certain skills at all.
Since were on D&D warriors were good dps in D&D the best not at all. A rogue or a mage would be tons better at doing damage than
the warrior. At low levels the warrior is a better choice in D&D for damage it's a relatively safe class doesn't die easy and if you build right constantly does damage. But the mage and the rogue in that game are late bloomers. At level 20 a mage can cast a multitude of spells. The most noteable (and overpowered) being time stop. When you can launch 5 spells at a target in the span of a second he's kind of unstopable. If a mage can prepair for a battle the opponent doesn't really stand a chance. A rogue in D&D gets what like
10d6(can't remember exacly what it is at 20) on every single attack from each weapon. I'm not going to do averages here, but with 6 possible attacks total at max the rogue would do what 360 damage just from sneak attacks.
Anyway to sum up here:
Warriors in WoW do good dps, just not the best. And generally in other fantasy settings it is the same way. So what do you acutally want from the class. Do you just want to be a meat sheild that can dish out huge damage better than anyone else? If so then that's probably never going to happen. Why whould anyone play any other class? There would be literally two classes in the game The tank
and they guy who heals the tank. Heck if they did enough dps you whouldn't even need the other guy. And if everyone does the same dps, just in different flavors and defenses aren't we all just playing the same class that can do the same thing.
Edit---
oh to actually answer your question warrior is probably the most nerfed class, but does that mean its sub par being ruined? probably not, it just means that its the easyiest to break the balace of when adding new things to the game.
yes i did restate my original statement, but then its not a true to "RPG's". You must remember that RPG's are all based on fiction and fantasy. This is what im saying, and with saying that i believe the Warrior is the most nerfed class when it comes to damage, but i also stated that i hadnt played many classes and was looking at other poeple's opinion on what their thoughts were on the most nerfed class and so far i can see that the priest has been wuite nerfed itself aswell. Although with consideration to RPG the priest (also knows as clerics) is actually doing is job which is heal :P and buffs.
Now if you go play a proper RPG (eg. Baldur's Gate Series - I know its not a MMO but it is a RPG) you will see that being a warrior main class is awesome due to heavy armour plus heavy damage output.
I am kinda newbie to MMO's considering the amount of experience others on this site have had, but i aint a newbie to the rpg scene been playing RPG's before they came out on any Gaming console (D&D for eg.) and the warrior in all these RPG's were not nerfed to the point where the damage is minimal. Warriors are supposed to be the melee experts, thats why we choose them, because we want to play with big swords and axes, but with rogues out DPSing us, which in turn them makes them the Melee expert, we have been reduced to "Armour Expert".
If you want to validate this go take a look at the Wizards of the Coast character sheets (They bought out TNR inc. who made the first commercial RPG game: Dungeons & Dragons) and go have a look at their descriptions of each class. And in the first D&D game there were three classes: "The Fighting Man (the melee expert), The Magic User (the magic expert) and the Cleric (The buffs and healing/poison-disease removing expert)"
Now all im trying to say is that the version of the warrior in WoW and other MMO's which claim to be RPG's is not true to its name.
Ok to Natob from what I gather (please correct me if I am wrong here) You believe warriors in WoW should be more front line damage dealers. What i'm haveing a problem with this is I don't understand what you want from the class. Dps Warriors generallyneed better gear than most to truely shine and do very good dps. Most of the ones that I have seen in raiding guilds hit at least the top
five in damage. So are you asking to be a full on tank (prot spec) and still top the damage lists?
Yes their damage has been nerfed, but it was getting out of control. When your damage comes from your normal strikes and skills
that add weapon damage + X, and you add new weapons with higher dps to this game at the high end warrior dps starts out stripping
the pure dps classes such as mages. Mages are limited to their current spells at max level then trying to amass a whole set of + damage gear. When all the warrior would have to do is get 1 drop from random high level instance and he would start pulling more dps than the mage. Now this reduces dps on the warrior low end of gear, but the higher end remains relatively the same. So it
comes down to the fact that you probably can do very good dps as a warrior, you just have to attain a good peice of gear to do it.
So are you asking to be able to take a tanking class and make it generate good dps with out any effort into the class?
You mentioned some thing about being a melee expert. Something you said you took from D&D (i'm sure this is quite true).
So what does not make you a melee expert. You can use every melee weapon in the game with all of your skills( can't remember
any skills or talents that require specific weapons as a warrior. correct me if I am wrong on this). When I personally hear Melee
expert I think of a guy who can take any weapon and effectively use it against his opponent. Now you could construe that to mean
that you should also be an expert and dishing out damage in melee combat, but the title is a bit to vauge to be definate so that comes
down to personal opnion on the subject. Rogues are not melee experts at most they are single target damage experts.
They can only utilize about 3 weapons but most stick to sword or dagger. And if they choose a type of weapon they may not be able to
use certain skills at all.
Since were on D&D warriors were good dps in D&D the best not at all. A rogue or a mage would be tons better at doing damage than
the warrior. At low levels the warrior is a better choice in D&D for damage it's a relatively safe class doesn't die easy and if you build right constantly does damage. But the mage and the rogue in that game are late bloomers. At level 20 a mage can cast a multitude of spells. The most noteable (and overpowered) being time stop. When you can launch 5 spells at a target in the span of a second he's kind of unstopable. If a mage can prepair for a battle the opponent doesn't really stand a chance. A rogue in D&D gets what like
10d6(can't remember exacly what it is at 20) on every single attack from each weapon. I'm not going to do averages here, but with 6 possible attacks total at max the rogue would do what 360 damage just from sneak attacks.
Anyway to sum up here:
Warriors in WoW do good dps, just not the best. And generally in other fantasy settings it is the same way. So what do you acutally want from the class. Do you just want to be a meat sheild that can dish out huge damage better than anyone else? If so then that's probably never going to happen. Why whould anyone play any other class? There would be literally two classes in the game The tank
and they guy who heals the tank. Heck if they did enough dps you whouldn't even need the other guy. And if everyone does the same dps, just in different flavors and defenses aren't we all just playing the same class that can do the same thing.
Edit---
oh to actually answer your question warrior is probably the most nerfed class, but does that mean its sub par being ruined? probably not, it just means that its the easyiest to break the balace of when adding new things to the game.
You are getting my point, yet i dont want them to be put on the top of all dps. What you need to do is go play a warrior and see what i mean. If I have to wait untill im lvl 70 (which is not to soon) to get all the good gear to become a good damage dealer then ok not to bad, but getting to 70 has been a tough ride. I have levelled my mage up way faster than my warrior due to way way way less downtime (I.E. i kill everything way faster)
I just want the warrior to deal a good amount of damage thats all.
I mean i do enjoy tanking, its fun, and it gives a nice responsibility when playing with my guild or PUGS.
Blizzard has actually tried to buff our class a bit, with the last patch i could def see better rage generation than before. So maybe there is hope.
Good post btw
Which Final Fantasy Character Are You?
Final Fantasy
I found it hard
It's hard to find
Oh Well
Whatever
Nevermind
What happens at 70 is not some weird thing where you all the sudden have all these abilitys that are created and the moons align, then poof the magic happens. It's basicly that you no longer out level your gear, and you can still get new and better gear. You'll need to amass a set of better dps gear at 70. So you'll basicly need to hit 70 and spend some time gearing up to get better dps out of your warrior.
Oh and if your leveling as fury(which i did btw) enjoy that cause it sucks unless you can find some above average 1 handers. not sure about the post 60 pre 70 landscape of 1 handed weapons, but I was basicly stuck with the same two weapons for long while.
She regularly tops battlegrounds in terms of both kills and damage done. So if there are any problems with warriors, it is in terms of how gear dependent they are, not in their potential.
Warriors need to regularly visit instances in order to keep their gear up to date, and to occasionally buy items from the AH. Any warrior who tries to level just through grinding without even visiting the AH (a viable strategy for clothies and hunters) will experience problems.
D&D Home Page - What Class Are You? - Build A Character - D&D Compendium
Too true, this is where my problem lies. I visit as many instances as i can to get better gear and in doing that i level wayyy to slow compared to everyone else in my guild.
And for someone that does not have a main and plays on a server like mine where prices a way to high (thanks to goldfarmers) it makes it next to impossible to get any valuable and usefell item off the AH
Which Final Fantasy Character Are You?
Final Fantasy
I found it hard
It's hard to find
Oh Well
Whatever
Nevermind
What has always been a problem with WoW is an utterly crapy original balance concept with itemisation that didnt account for adding epic gear at late levels.
So you have Melee classes that boost their dps through 1 ( yes, ONE) item- the weapon. All the other gear slots are free perks for enchancing that dps even further, adding survivability or whatnot.
On the other side of the coin you have casters. They dont have the luxury of basing their dps on 1 item, but have to imput an incredible amount of effort into getting a ful set of gear that would amount to a scalable dps increase, loosing any real choice for gear customisation.
So a melee dps-er gets 1 item and upgrades his/her dps for let say 10%, now imagine how many items it would take for a caster to make the same improvement?
Alas that problem looks like it is there to stay untill the day WoW shuts it's door.
*??)XXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXX(??*
?.??.*??)?.*?*.?(??*.??.?
(?.? (?. MEAT_BAG0 .?) ?.?)
_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_
_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_