Well, except I think it's clear to everyone that AoC and WAR are being made to appeal to people who like to PvP - not to the "strictly PvE" crowd, really.
Honestly I think it is damned hard to make a game that is superb in PvE and PvP at the same time. Among other things, balancing classes/ships/abilities for both of these is very, very hard. In addition, the kinds of players that are attracted to a game differ depending on what the game offers, and trying to cater to all of them seems hazardous to me. For example, if you are building a game that is largely PvE-based and then you toss in a PvP element to it, most likely the PvPers are not going to like it. Also you have to keep in mind that there are different kind of PvPers: a game setup like DAoC or WAR is not considered PvP by a segment of the PvP market because it isn't FFA, ganktastic, no restrictions PvP.
I think it's far better for a game designer to make a game for a specific audience rather than trying to please everyone, and in the end pleasing noone. One of the advantages that games like AoC and WAR have is that they know who they are aiming at (and it is not the entire market, because the entire market is not PvP enthusiasts). Same can be said for EVE: PvE is -- ahem -- limited in quality, but the game is aimed at hardcore PvPers and competitive play people. Games that know what they want to do, rather than trying to do a bit of everything, are going to end up doing whatever it is they do better, and pleasing their target audience more.
You guys know that PvP is not necessarily fighting? It only means: Competition. It can be played out with trading, harvesting, crafting and fighting. People trying to get a part of a limited ressource are doing pvp. Players trying to sell their goods on a market against other competitors are doing pvp. So yes I think pvp is an important part of a mmo for me. At the same time I also do think that it is impossible to put up a competitve mmo and get non-pvpers to play the game as they do not care about overcoming boundaries or having to practice or create new strategies to become successfull.
This is so true. Like resource farming in the original SWG, and then competing with other Chef's by managing your entire process to create the least costly, highest quality, foods and then to Advertise it all across multiple "worlds".
Those people who only want straightforward log in - run to zone A - macro response D for mob X - loot - repeat: Are not those that enjoy PvP (whether pking pvp or crafting/sales competition, etc). Successful PvP is very much about being a better player, killer, harvester, explorer, seller, buyer, etc.
PvP is a necessary part to any game that wants to succeeed - As anything other than an offline game with a chat room.
WHY WOULD SOMEONE PLAY AN MMO JUST TO KILL DUMB NPC'S? Doesn't that defeat the purpose of playing an MMO?
You missed 3 letters of the acronym. You've shorted it to "MMO", but the full acronym of these games is "MMORPG." It is the "RPG" that really requires multiple players. Not the levelling, the killing NPCs, or any of that. Yup, all that other stuff can be done in a single player game, but roleplaying really can't be. You need other players to be able to roleplay.
Now RP is probably not your thing either, which would be why you dropped the "RPG" off the end of the acronym. But the "RPG" part tells you why people would want to be in an MMO_R_P_G_ and yet not kill each other (as players). You don't need to kill my character to RP with it. In fact, most of the best RP is done in dialog.
Again it may not be your thing, but that is why some of us play these games but are not rally into PVP. The reason is what I said before -- I prefer cooperative to competitive gaming. Roleplaying Games are, by definition, "cooperative storytelling" (that's what roleplaying is, fundamentally), and so a cooperative game like an RPG appeals to someone like me, who deplores competition with friends but loves cooperating with them.
Even in the old days in arcade games there were differences. I would go up to the arcade with friends and some would play "Mortal Kombat" and compete with each other, loving the competition. One guy and I, who preferred cooperating, would instead go find those games where you both are on the same side fighting the computer, and play that. It's a different style of gaming, but it can be done with friends, and thus you can do cooperative gaming in an MMORPG. Indeed, there is no way to do cooperative gaming without multiple other players... who are you going to cooperate with, the computer?
You are into competition, and that's fine. But cooperation, also, requires multiple players, and the PVE-crowd is the cooperative people, while the PVP crowd is the competitive ones (when you boil it down to its essence). You're implying there isn't room for both in these games, but I think there can be (though I would not object to it being in different games, instead of all in the same game).
From my personal standpoint I dont believe that there is any game out there that is a "Hard Hitting PvP game" Right now we have games that are mainly focused on PvE with a little PvP to keep those types of people hooked (WoW for example). Look forward to WAR, AoC, and Darkfall. I have lost my faith in level and class based games for PvP. If there is one thing that I cant stand is rock, paper, scissors pvp. As of now level and class games are also VERY dependent on equip (whatever happend to the old UO days where a person in leather could take down a someone in full invuln plate if they knew what they were doing).
You are in the same boat as the majority of us PvPers who are looking for an evenly balanced PvP oriented game. We are just waiting for the right game to be developed.
I've been thinking, PvP is what attracts me to a game, pvp is unpredictable and has an endless range of skill bringing new challenges to a game. Games which Brings actual skill into pvp such as Guild Wars and Wow have the correct idea around pvp as its really down to that players skill and not so much items and or level. Games like Lineage 2 does have great pvp although its heavly level based, its too dependant on the time you have put into the game and not so much the skill that is involved, if any. I'm not currently playing any game, apart from a few hours of Counterstrike: Source. But i'm looking for a really hard hitting Pvp game that will hopefully knock my socks off. Just some of my oppinions, would like to hear yours.
I basically ticked the first one ... "I don't care about PvP". Now, with that said, I will clarify how I see this as a "function" of any well-made MMO. Additionally, I will speculate as to why some games have let/allowed PvP to get out of hand and seemingly take over the entire track of the storyline of the game. I will use Lineage 2 as my example since I have played extensively in that particular MMO.
If you could go back into time, say 1999, what games would you find at the top of the popularity chart? How many actual MMO's were in existence then? Well, now it would take too long for me to list them all. Maybe someone has a link to list that shows this data from that particular year. I would have to say that most of the popular games of that time were FPS, (first person shooters). As I recall, the shelves were crammed packed full of various types of FPS games. MMO's? Well, I chose 1999, becuase I do believe this might be considered as the dawn of the modern-day MMO's that we know today. Final Fantasy, Everquest, Dark Age of Camelot, and the original Lineage were the top games of the age. Please add to this list if you know of any that were popular during that time. There were also several RPS games out there as well. Obviously, the FPS mode or style of play was the most popular and most probably remains so today, to some extent. For the most part PvP was the realm of FPS in general, with only a very few MMO exceptions.
Alright, now we will see as time goes by how many MMO's have tried to incorporate some type of PK/PvP system in their game play. Why? I think that they appreciate the size of the FPS market and how successful they have been with their console version games. They lure the FPS gamers into the role players realm with "open pvp". Is there a problem that develops? In a word, yes. Role players are generally quite happy with a slow and steady pace of adventuring/crafting and fellowship/storytelling, while FPSers generally want it all now and as quickly as possible or they get bored, (lol just read some of the "bored" posts in some of these forums ). FPSers and Role players just do not mix well, therefore at least, in Lineage 2 the role player has to a large extent lost out to those that prefer PvP.
Lineage 2 is a good example of a game transformed from a very, very strong role playing game from the on-set in 2002 to an all out war now on some servers. PvP has it's place in MMO's. However, PvP is NOT the primary part of an MMO. It just isn't really. At first Lineage 2 was an example of seamless beauty and wonder. PvP was an incidental occasional part of adventuring. It generally was taken with a grain of salt and most mature, wise adventurers simply outsmarted the villains by means of another path. Castle sieging was the place where you shined brightest in PvP. There were also hunts for the notorious or the assassins hired by castle lords vile and wretched. As time went by, there became more and more "reds". It became a plague on the questing/adventuring. Forums seemed to overflow with complaints and examples of PKing gone wild. These foes of the honor-bound began to go onto forums and explain themselves. As they put it, they became tired of the extreme grind and found it more fun to go out to low level areas and hunt adventurers. This was the state of the game for quite some time. Now, I suppose it wouldn't be fair to speak for all the servers. I do however think they developed in a similar manner to mine. At any rate the story itself was changing as castle lords' greed grew to the point where these reds became for hire. Many created new players to be placed in the highest ranked clans. These clans made an alliance and then basically took the server and held it by force for a year. The red, in higher level areas was a sign to all that might venture near that they would be killed quickly and remorselessly not only by the red but with support from the ruling alliance of the time. Finally, and I suppose ultimately, there was born a resistance to this form of tyranny. On Gustin, in 2004 until mid 2005 this struggle ragged between the EA and Anti-EA. The term "carebear" was invented as a derogatory remark given to anyone attempting to stay out of the squabble between two basically vain individuals that just couldn't play on the same server. The neutral clans did survive all this fiasco, however, but the game would never return to it's former glory. Gustin still bleeds from the fallout. Gank-festing and trash talk is what it is. Just look on the official forum for examples. The wonder and adventure has gone. The lust for power and greed-mongering has taken hold. Chaotic, yes, but there is not beauty in it any , longer. Just another drive-by stabbing...
Basically, most PvPers are also avid FPSer and were before they were enticed into playing MMO's. I'm not sure what exactly they do that's beneficial for these games since many get bored of the MMO so quickly. There are very good and wonderful FPSers that have become avid MMOers, but seems to me, that the average person coming in from "Counter Strike" just would rather duke it out with other players until they get bored enough to log out for the evening. So, I guess whenever there is word of a new MMO, the first thing that's asked is, "Will there be PK/PvP?".
Look at the number of MMO's out there today. How many have some form of PvP? Almost all of them do now. I will say though that very few have open PvP. Lineage 2 has shown that it will not support high numbers of subscribers. Why? Maturity level of the gamer, pure and simple. What they need is an MMO that feels like and plays like an FPS. Then they would be home. But, alas, will probabl not happen. I doubt there's a true answer to all this, but at least I worked it off my chest. I like PvP, in it's place. PvP for the sake of PvP is basically just FPS. It takes maturity to know how to and when to PvP.
All I want is the truth Just gimme some truth John Lennon
The poll is very poorly written, by the way. It basically boils down to one option of "PvP = bad" and three options of "PvP = good."
Where's the option for "I don't usually participate, but I don't mind having it," or "I would prefer that PvP not be included at all," or "I like PvP, but I don't need it if the PvE is good enough"?
I've been thinking, PvP is what attracts me to a game, pvp is unpredictable and has an endless range of skill bringing new challenges to a game. Games which Brings actual skill into pvp such as Guild Wars and Wow have the correct idea around pvp as its really down to that players skill and not so much items and or level. Games like Lineage 2 does have great pvp although its heavly level based, its too dependant on the time you have put into the game and not so much the skill that is involved, if any. I'm not currently playing any game, apart from a few hours of Counterstrike: Source. But i'm looking for a really hard hitting Pvp game that will hopefully knock my socks off. Just some of my oppinions, would like to hear yours.
I basically ticked the first one ... "I don't care about PvP". Now, with that said, I will clarify how I see this as a "function" of any well-made MMO. Additionally, I will speculate as to why some games have let/allowed PvP to get out of hand and seemingly take over the entire track of the storyline of the game. I will use Lineage 2 as my example since I have played extensively in that particular MMO.
If you could go back into time, say 1999, what games would you find at the top of the popularity chart? How many actual MMO's were in existence then? Well, now it would take too long for me to list them all. Maybe someone has a link to list that shows this data from that particular year. I would have to say that most of the popular games of that time were FPS, (first person shooters). As I recall, the shelves were crammed packed full of various types of FPS games. MMO's? Well, I chose 1999, becuase I do believe this might be considered as the dawn of the modern-day MMO's that we know today. Final Fantasy, Everquest, Dark Age of Camelot, and the original Lineage were the top games of the age. Please add to this list if you know of any that were popular during that time. There were also several RPS games out there as well. Obviously, the FPS mode or style of play was the most popular and most probably remains so today, to some extent. For the most part PvP was the realm of FPS in general, with only a very few MMO exceptions.
Alright, now we will see as time goes by how many MMO's have tried to incorporate some type of PK/PvP system in their game play. Why? I think that they appreciate the size of the FPS market and how successful they have been with their console version games. They lure the FPS gamers into the role players realm with "open pvp". Is there a problem that develops? In a word, yes. Role players are generally quite happy with a slow and steady pace of adventuring/crafting and fellowship/storytelling, while FPSers generally want it all now and as quickly as possible or they get bored, (lol just read some of the "bored" posts in some of these forums ). FPSers and Role players just do not mix well, therefore at least, in Lineage 2 the role player has to a large extent lost out to those that prefer PvP.
Lineage 2 is a good example of a game transformed from a very, very strong role playing game from the on-set in 2002 to an all out war now on some servers. PvP has it's place in MMO's. However, PvP is NOT the primary part of an MMO. It just isn't really. At first Lineage 2 was an example of seamless beauty and wonder. PvP was an incidental occasional part of adventuring. It generally was taken with a grain of salt and most mature, wise adventurers simply outsmarted the villains by means of another path. Castle sieging was the place where you shined brightest in PvP. There were also hunts for the notorious or the assassins hired by castle lords vile and wretched. As time went by, there became more and more "reds". It became a plague on the questing/adventuring. Forums seemed to overflow with complaints and examples of PKing gone wild. These foes of the honor-bound began to go onto forums and explain themselves. As they put it, they became tired of the extreme grind and found it more fun to go out to low level areas and hunt adventurers. This was the state of the game for quite some time. Now, I suppose it wouldn't be fair to speak for all the servers. I do however think they developed in a similar manner to mine. At any rate the story itself was changing as castle lords' greed grew to the point where these reds became for hire. Many created new players to be placed in the highest ranked clans. These clans made an alliance and then basically took the server and held it by force for a year. The red, in higher level areas was a sign to all that might venture near that they would be killed quickly and remorselessly not only by the red but with support from the ruling alliance of the time. Finally, and I suppose ultimately, there was born a resistance to this form of tyranny. On Gustin, in 2004 until mid 2005 this struggle ragged between the EA and Anti-EA. The term "carebear" was invented as a derogatory remark given to anyone attempting to stay out of the squabble between two basically vain individuals that just couldn't play on the same server. The neutral clans did survive all this fiasco, however, but the game would never return to it's former glory. Gustin still bleeds from the fallout. Gank-festing and trash talk is what it is. Just look on the official forum for examples. The wonder and adventure has gone. The lust for power and greed-mongering has taken hold. Chaotic, yes, but there is not beauty in it any , longer. Just another drive-by stabbing...
Basically, most PvPers are also avid FPSer and were before they were enticed into playing MMO's. I'm not sure what exactly they do that's beneficial for these games since many get bored of the MMO so quickly. There are very good and wonderful FPSers that have become avid MMOers, but seems to me, that the average person coming in from "Counter Strike" just would rather duke it out with other players until they get bored enough to log out for the evening. So, I guess whenever there is word of a new MMO, the first thing that's asked is, "Will there be PK/PvP?".
Look at the number of MMO's out there today. How many have some form of PvP? Almost all of them do now. I will say though that very few have open PvP. Lineage 2 has shown that it will not support high numbers of subscribers. Why? Maturity level of the gamer, pure and simple. What they need is an MMO that feels like and plays like an FPS. Then they would be home. But, alas, will probabl not happen. I doubt there's a true answer to all this, but at least I worked it off my chest. I like PvP, in it's place. PvP for the sake of PvP is basically just FPS. It takes maturity to know how to and when to PvP.Spoken like a true Gustin player ( there from Sept 04 -May 05)...I agree with everything you said but alas Pvp ( for me ) only means who can spend more on " The CC " . So many companies ( and Gamers ) are against it but thats a false.When a company says " Hey do what you gotta do " then " I am there " but all these others preaching what they don't practice ......nah
What was the earth shaking evolution of online gaming?
You started to face HUMAN oponents rather than mobs/npcs with idiotic AI.
That's the thrill. That's the evolution. The challenge. Tthat's the one step beyond.
MMORPGs are good for socializing, community, etc, but in the end if you don't face human oponents, you got nothing. You can just invite your friends in your house, and play some offline/single player game. Or just play a single player game yourself and socialize/commune yourself in some chat room.
Online games without pvp = half games
You get all the nice things of online gaming as I said, like socializing, playing along with hudrends of other (human) players, communicating, making politics etc and you exclude the one thing that maybe is what actually gives meaning to all these. Human confrontation. PvP.
And no, I'm not talking about "Ima the l33t dudez to pawnz U all". I'm talking about a normal person, who, as I said, enjoys to confront human oponents, oponents with inteligence, unpredictable, etc, than face same ole same ole idiotic AI.
Several things made people turn away from PvP.
All the idiotic asses of PKers on the one hand, who didn't just roleplay a bad guy, but kept on griefing and killing without a meaning. I mean, what's the challenge (PvP = challenge after all) if you kill a player 30 levels bellow you? What's the challenge if you gank a player while you are 10 and kill him? One thing to be in some short of a faction/enemy/guild war and got your enemy off guard and other thing to just find some "innocent" guy in the open and kill him because you can. That being said, if the game environment is truelly open and lets say a miner knows that to go mine gold (lets say it's the most precious ore) in that far mountain he has the risk of getting killed then he knows what he's going into when he walks down that valley. Risk Vs Reward is always an option. Then again you may tell me that the game guides me to must go mine gold because the best weapons/armors are crafted from this etc. Well I agree, so in this case, expect that mining the most precious of all metals would be very very difficult to do....solo, right? Gather some friends and go on a mining quest/event. Don't just whine, expecting you could mine the most precious of all alone and you got killed.
Another thing that made people turn away from PvP is the fear of losing their uber "Dragon Slayer +18" uber weapon etc. Well, that's the TRAP MMORPG companies set forth and we all stepped in. Where the perpetual hunt of uber items was the meaning of ingame life. Crafters meant nothing, cuz their crafted items were nowhere as good. To lose an item in pvp, with a chance to be that sword was unthinkable etc. Instead, if all items were player made and crafted items were equally good as "looted from NPCs/bosses/etc" items then people would not fear PvPing even if PvP was coming with a loss of items, because they could just craft more or buy more cheap or use some weapons they, themselves looted from others. I will not go on on this issue. I will quote Ultima Online, Eve Online and some other games that this happens.
But really, it all goes down to what I said initially.
THe revolution of online gaming goes down to facing the challenge to confront human oponents than a stupid AI. And everything in the games should be made around it (in a form to balance it and present a complete game (with the social/community/crafting/trade/etc aspect)) and not avoid it and push it to the background. Now we don't play MMORPGs. We play Single Player games in a multiplayer environment.
PVP is surly not needed, to have a great MMO. The only problem i really see with PVP is that, it always comes down to balance issues. Take any MMO from launch, that has PVP. In less than a month, the moang and btching starts on why class X always beats class Y.
Then the devs see this, and start tinkering and changing what their origional vision the game they created. Then what happens, they start to focus on the pvp side of the game and start lacking on the pve side, then before you know it, you are playing a game, that is differant than what you bought.
Pvp is fine, as long as the dev team can handle the balance issues, and not have to change to much, so to throw the pve game out of whack.
I agree Musicmann, but that's not the problem of the players. That's the problem of the companies. They always rush to publish an unfinished product to get our money, without a good beta testing where all the balance of classes etc should take place as much as possible and we end up having things like that. I too get frustrated if I play a game, chose a class, invest my TIME and then get some nerfs on that class and seeing all my time going wasted. But as I said, blame it to the companies that don't publish games with an already decent balance between the classes. Don't blame the gamers who many a times state (be it whine or not) the obvious leading to what was necessary to be done (before the release).
I agree with you. Nothing worse than to start having nerf calls in a game. Balancing issues though even through alot of beta testing mostly still won't stop the nerf and moaning from pvpers. PVP has a winner and a loser, and alot of people just don't want to lose.
This is where the devs i think in any game start to have a problem and thus start to neglect the rest of the game. So pvp is fun, but at what price to the overall game.
If the game is being developed with PvP being in mind as great part of the game then the PvE will find its way. And whatever nerfs take place to classes due to PvP will work their way out in pve too.
Example: I was playing Lineage II and I decided to make one of the best pvp classes, an Overlord, which was the MOST diffuclt to lvl (PvE) by far. What happened? While I was solo, I found myself advancing (lvl-ing) 3 or 5 times slower than any other class. Very frustrated. But once I joined my guild/friends they helped me lvl. After that we were friends PvEing, leveling etc as a company. Ofc some times I was left out if the grps were tight, but my problems were not so great in comparison if I was solo. And my satisfaction at the end game, playing one of the best classes in pvp was great. (Till some dude(s) with uber items bought with r/l money were coming along the way making me regret all the time I "wasted"....but that's another story).
Bottom line, I find it logical that maybe some class that is good for pvp may not be so good for pve, especially solo. We must not want everything. To play our class. To be good in pve and pvp and be able to get rich and etc.
Maybe that's one of the good things about RPGs. To make choises and live with the consequences. For better or worse.
odysseas70, your basic premise is quite mistaken. You assume that PvP is something everyone would enjoy, if they could only have a "good" PvP experience.
I assure you, there are many, many people out there who are simply not interested in PvP, no matter how well it's implemented.
Therefore, PvP is not the next step in the evolution of MMOGs, but rather one direction they can take. It's a perfectly valid direction, but so is the direction where developers eschew PvP in favor of a more satisfying PvE game. This could be accomplished through better AI, better writing, more interesting and engaging game mechanics, etc.
ok the question here is ''is pvp needed in an mmo''? Well that depends lol, if you want a pvp game and the game you are playing is suppose to be a pvp game, then yes i would think it is needed, if yer playing a game that is not pvp and you like it non pvpv then no it is not needed, lol.
odysseas70, your basic premise is quite mistaken. You assume that PvP is something everyone would enjoy, if they could only have a "good" PvP experience. I assure you, there are many, many people out there who are simply not interested in PvP, no matter how well it's implemented. Therefore, PvP is not the next step in the evolution of MMOGs, but rather one direction they can take. It's a perfectly valid direction, but so is the direction where developers eschew PvP in favor of a more satisfying PvE game. This could be accomplished through better AI, better writing, more interesting and engaging game mechanics, etc.
Hex, I agree with you.
There could just be different games so we could chose. This has full pvp, this has full pve, this has inbetween etc. (I was just stating my opinion that the "gift" of "online gaming" brought to us the revolution of actually being able to confront human intelligent oponents than an idiotic AI). However today more or less there are no full pvp games, only imitations (pve games that release a pvp server and thus pvp there sucks) or full pvp games that are "uber item" depended so you don't actually pvp "skill Vs skill" but "whoever spent most money on gold farmers" etc.
Eventually, it's like smoking. All the non-smokers started to whine (having ofc a valid reason), but instead of, lets say, having to chose between 2 planes to go from Europe to USA, 1 for smokers, 1 for non-smokers, now we have ended up having ONLY non-smoker planes. So the smokers actually are now the ones with no choice, the outcasts.
PVP is not for everyone. But I personally like it. When i'm tired of questing, grinding, raiding, I have the opportunity to step back from it and PVP. This keeps me interested in the game. Sometimes you just get burnt out on grinding. I lose interest in MMOS without PVP.
Aside from myself only Inf666, sempiternal, Novaseeker, tapeworm00 and Mado essentially get it, while WisebutCruel, Ohaan and Mylon sort of get but make serious errors in their judgement.
Pvp is basically a requirement because pvp is about human interaction. This why we play mmos. They are basically singleplayer games involving lots of people being there with you at the same time. We are social competitive creatures and pvp emphasizes that competitive element. Pvp isn't just about pkers, wars and gladitiorial events. It's also about selling your wares fo better profits than your compeition, racing against other player to new world bosses and elite level quests or gaining more and/or higher qulaity level of friends and allies than other guilds/social groups.
Does every MMO need pvp? No. The gaming market would be very fustrating and stale if every mmo incorporated competitive interaction with cooperative interaction. Their should be MMOs that cater solely to one aspect to cater to various consumers tastes and to really push the boundaries of what could be achieved in one sphere without having to consider the other sphere that encompasses mmo gameplay.
Chessack made a previous post that eloquently enough elaborates on why this is so better than anyone else here.
I'm just requoting a lot of the posts some people made because all other opinons expressed are subserviant to these posts because they don't understand the broader implications of the question being asked. Ironaically even the op doesn't get what he ended up asking.
You guys know that PvP is not necessarily fighting? It only means: Competition. It can be played out with trading, harvesting, crafting and fighting. People trying to get a part of a limited ressource are doing pvp. Players trying to sell their goods on a market against other competitors are doing pvp. So yes I think pvp is an important part of a mmo for me. At the same time I also do think that it is impossible to put up a competitve mmo and get non-pvpers to play the game as they do not care about overcoming boundaries or having to practice or create new strategies to become successfull.
PvP litterally means Player versus Player.
It should be the CORE of any multiplayer game, especially MMORGPs.
A much higher level of cooperation is necessary for success in games which focus on player competition.
PvP does not need to be merely defined as "PvP combat," in a good multiplayer game, players compete with each other in all aspects of the game, politically and socially (cooperatively), economically, and in direct competition or combat.
Unfortunately, most MMOGs today, try to avoid the most advantageous aspect MMOGs can exploit over single player or offline games, the multiplayer competition! And, what we have now is a bunch of single player games that happen to be played online and contain a chat interface.
There's more than one kind of PvP, really. In my experience, there is (1) combat PvP and (2) non-combat PvP. The non-combat PvP can be any kind of in-game competition between players, be it financial, industrial, technological, tradeskills, what have you.
On the combat side, I've noticed that there are two kinds of PvPers: (1) PKers who want to gank people and have full corpse looting and (2) PvPers who want more structure, be it stated objectives, realm-v-realm play, level bands to prevent ganking and the like.
Trying to design a game that matches all of this is pretty much impossible other than having different rulesets on different servers -- which is the approach that a lot of developers have taken in an effort to please all of these different kinds of PvPers, as well as accomodate the non-PvP crowd (which is larger, in my experience in games, than the PvP crowd).
<snipped for brevity>
So I guess in response to the question, I would say that I think some form of competitive play is a great feature to have in an MMO. The key issue is how to design it so as to minimize grief play and maximize truly epic competition between players.
It doesn't matter if "original RPGs" didn't have PvP or weren't enhanced by it. Times change, and I think that today's online gamers are more or less evenly split between those who love PvP and those who don't, and then there's those who don't give a damn. Considering that what MMORPGs are all about is the size of the world (in all terms), and their objective is to attract as many players as possible, then yeah, PvP is needed in the game. Having decent PvP in a game doesn't exclude decent PvE and viceversa, which is what some people here seem to think (same thing with RP and PvP).
<snipped for brevity>
This is so true. Like resource farming in the original SWG, and then competing with other Chef's by managing your entire process to create the least costly, highest quality, foods and then to Advertise it all across multiple "worlds".
Those people who only want straightforward log in - run to zone A - macro response D for mob X - loot - repeat: Are not those that enjoy PvP (whether pking pvp or crafting/sales competition, etc). Successful PvP is very much about being a better player, killer, harvester, explorer, seller, buyer, etc.
PvP is a necessary part to any game that wants to succeeed - As anything other than an offline game with a chat room.
Chessack's statement.
<snipped for brevity>
Again it may not be your thing, but that is why some of us play these games but are not rally into PVP. The reason is what I said before -- I prefer cooperative to competitive gaming. Roleplaying Games are, by definition, "cooperative storytelling" (that's what roleplaying is, fundamentally), and so a cooperative game like an RPG appeals to someone like me, who deplores competition with friends but loves cooperating with them.
Even in the old days in arcade games there were differences. I would go up to the arcade with friends and some would play "Mortal Kombat" and compete with each other, loving the competition. One guy and I, who preferred cooperating, would instead go find those games where you both are on the same side fighting the computer, and play that. It's a different style of gaming, but it can be done with friends, and thus you can do cooperative gaming in an MMORPG. Indeed, there is no way to do cooperative gaming without multiple other players... who are you going to cooperate with, the computer?
You are into competition, and that's fine. But cooperation, also, requires multiple players, and the PVE-crowd is the cooperative people, while the PVP crowd is the competitive ones (when you boil it down to its essence). You're implying there isn't room for both in these games, but I think there can be (though I would not object to it being in different games, instead of all in the same game).
Aside from myself only Inf666, sempiternal, Novaseeker, tapeworm00 and Mado essentially get it, while WisebutCruel, Ohaan and Mylon sort of get but make serious errors in their judgement.
I'm of the firm opinion a title minus PVP of any kind is incomplete. Simply put the greatest opponent one can face in an MMO is another thinking human being. There's no comparison, there is no substitute.
However i'd be willing to change my opinion if a developer actually took this concentrating on one sphere theory and pushed it.
And no... that doesn't mean find a new way to grind levels..nor finding a new way to horde phat lewtz. i mean innovation. So yes, if you're going to concentrate on PVE and give us something new than let's see it.
If not I suggest companies continue adding PVP as a break from the tired grind cycle already in place today.
Mutantmagnet, please try not to generalize. We are not all competitive creatures. Some people prefer to cooperate. Not cooperate against other players, just cooperate against the game.
All those "alternate" forms of PvP (competing for resources, getting the best gear) are just as annoying and/or uninteresting to a non-PvP player as PvP combat is. Sometimes more so.
well, i started of as a strictly pve player. It was EQlive. Later i found out that there is a pvp server, where players kill other players.
And the idea sounded horrible to me! You can't go afk, anyone can kill you anywhere... not for me. Death from monsters was harsh enough penalty.
After 2 years of grinding, when everything got boring, i started to think about pvp more and more often. Then EQ2 was released, i joined it at a time when pvp servers were released. I went straight to pvp server. I remember my heart racing when i got involved in a pvp combat. That was SO different.
Well, now i just can't see a point in a mmorpg if there is no pvp. Monsters are not a challenge to me. Other players are. And i wouldn't even consider trying a mmo without a pvp... Unless it had everything i ever dreamt of. But that will never happen
Well I myself enjoy pvp becuase it wakens up your killer instanct and make you pay more attention to the game and not to some gross P*** site on the toolbar while you keep changing from tab to tab.....you sick sick-o. Thats why PVP is really important in a game.
If the ocean was vodka, and i were a duck, I'd swim to the bottom and drink my way up, but the ocean ain't vodka, and i ain't a duck so pass me a bottle and shut the **** up.
To be honest I'm a pvp freak. There is nothing better then showing off your skills letting people know U are the best. But The games now adays don't have pvp down packed. PvP shouldn't include leveles. It shouldn't include point and click skills. Pvp is about Stragety imagine a game based solely on pvp. But no point and click just a controller. A massive army of real people on 1 screen and u test your skills against them that is truly pvp. As of right now there is no game like this. So pvp will only be experimented with. A world without pvp is a retarded world. Because Pvp or rather wars and fighting is everywhere.
Comments
Honestly I think it is damned hard to make a game that is superb in PvE and PvP at the same time. Among other things, balancing classes/ships/abilities for both of these is very, very hard. In addition, the kinds of players that are attracted to a game differ depending on what the game offers, and trying to cater to all of them seems hazardous to me. For example, if you are building a game that is largely PvE-based and then you toss in a PvP element to it, most likely the PvPers are not going to like it. Also you have to keep in mind that there are different kind of PvPers: a game setup like DAoC or WAR is not considered PvP by a segment of the PvP market because it isn't FFA, ganktastic, no restrictions PvP.
I think it's far better for a game designer to make a game for a specific audience rather than trying to please everyone, and in the end pleasing noone. One of the advantages that games like AoC and WAR have is that they know who they are aiming at (and it is not the entire market, because the entire market is not PvP enthusiasts). Same can be said for EVE: PvE is -- ahem -- limited in quality, but the game is aimed at hardcore PvPers and competitive play people. Games that know what they want to do, rather than trying to do a bit of everything, are going to end up doing whatever it is they do better, and pleasing their target audience more.
This is so true. Like resource farming in the original SWG, and then competing with other Chef's by managing your entire process to create the least costly, highest quality, foods and then to Advertise it all across multiple "worlds".
Those people who only want straightforward log in - run to zone A - macro response D for mob X - loot - repeat: Are not those that enjoy PvP (whether pking pvp or crafting/sales competition, etc). Successful PvP is very much about being a better player, killer, harvester, explorer, seller, buyer, etc.
PvP is a necessary part to any game that wants to succeeed - As anything other than an offline game with a chat room.
Mado
Now RP is probably not your thing either, which would be why you dropped the "RPG" off the end of the acronym. But the "RPG" part tells you why people would want to be in an MMO_R_P_G_ and yet not kill each other (as players). You don't need to kill my character to RP with it. In fact, most of the best RP is done in dialog.
Again it may not be your thing, but that is why some of us play these games but are not rally into PVP. The reason is what I said before -- I prefer cooperative to competitive gaming. Roleplaying Games are, by definition, "cooperative storytelling" (that's what roleplaying is, fundamentally), and so a cooperative game like an RPG appeals to someone like me, who deplores competition with friends but loves cooperating with them.
Even in the old days in arcade games there were differences. I would go up to the arcade with friends and some would play "Mortal Kombat" and compete with each other, loving the competition. One guy and I, who preferred cooperating, would instead go find those games where you both are on the same side fighting the computer, and play that. It's a different style of gaming, but it can be done with friends, and thus you can do cooperative gaming in an MMORPG. Indeed, there is no way to do cooperative gaming without multiple other players... who are you going to cooperate with, the computer?
You are into competition, and that's fine. But cooperation, also, requires multiple players, and the PVE-crowd is the cooperative people, while the PVP crowd is the competitive ones (when you boil it down to its essence). You're implying there isn't room for both in these games, but I think there can be (though I would not object to it being in different games, instead of all in the same game).
C
You are in the same boat as the majority of us PvPers who are looking for an evenly balanced PvP oriented game. We are just waiting for the right game to be developed.
If you could go back into time, say 1999, what games would you find at the top of the popularity chart? How many actual MMO's were in existence then? Well, now it would take too long for me to list them all. Maybe someone has a link to list that shows this data from that particular year. I would have to say that most of the popular games of that time were FPS, (first person shooters). As I recall, the shelves were crammed packed full of various types of FPS games. MMO's? Well, I chose 1999, becuase I do believe this might be considered as the dawn of the modern-day MMO's that we know today. Final Fantasy, Everquest, Dark Age of Camelot, and the original Lineage were the top games of the age. Please add to this list if you know of any that were popular during that time. There were also several RPS games out there as well. Obviously, the FPS mode or style of play was the most popular and most probably remains so today, to some extent. For the most part PvP was the realm of FPS in general, with only a very few MMO exceptions.
Alright, now we will see as time goes by how many MMO's have tried to incorporate some type of PK/PvP system in their game play. Why? I think that they appreciate the size of the FPS market and how successful they have been with their console version games. They lure the FPS gamers into the role players realm with "open pvp". Is there a problem that develops? In a word, yes. Role players are generally quite happy with a slow and steady pace of adventuring/crafting and fellowship/storytelling, while FPSers generally want it all now and as quickly as possible or they get bored, (lol just read some of the "bored" posts in some of these forums
Lineage 2 is a good example of a game transformed from a very, very strong role playing game from the on-set in 2002 to an all out war now on some servers. PvP has it's place in MMO's. However, PvP is NOT the primary part of an MMO. It just isn't really. At first Lineage 2 was an example of seamless beauty and wonder. PvP was an incidental occasional part of adventuring. It generally was taken with a grain of salt and most mature, wise adventurers simply outsmarted the villains by means of another path. Castle sieging was the place where you shined brightest in PvP. There were also hunts for the notorious or the assassins hired by castle lords vile and wretched. As time went by, there became more and more "reds". It became a plague on the questing/adventuring. Forums seemed to overflow with complaints and examples of PKing gone wild. These foes of the honor-bound began to go onto forums and explain themselves. As they put it, they became tired of the extreme grind and found it more fun to go out to low level areas and hunt adventurers. This was the state of the game for quite some time. Now, I suppose it wouldn't be fair to speak for all the servers. I do however think they developed in a similar manner to mine. At any rate the story itself was changing as castle lords' greed grew to the point where these reds became for hire. Many created new players to be placed in the highest ranked clans. These clans made an alliance and then basically took the server and held it by force for a year. The red, in higher level areas was a sign to all that might venture near that they would be killed quickly and remorselessly not only by the red but with support from the ruling alliance of the time. Finally, and I suppose ultimately, there was born a resistance to this form of tyranny. On Gustin, in 2004 until mid 2005 this struggle ragged between the EA and Anti-EA. The term "carebear" was invented as a derogatory remark given to anyone attempting to stay out of the squabble between two basically vain individuals that just couldn't play on the same server. The neutral clans did survive all this fiasco, however, but the game would never return to it's former glory. Gustin still bleeds from the fallout. Gank-festing and trash talk is what it is. Just look on the official forum for examples. The wonder and adventure has gone. The lust for power and greed-mongering has taken hold. Chaotic, yes, but there is not beauty in it any , longer. Just another drive-by stabbing...
Basically, most PvPers are also avid FPSer and were before they were enticed into playing MMO's. I'm not sure what exactly they do that's beneficial for these games since many get bored of the MMO so quickly. There are very good and wonderful FPSers that have become avid MMOers, but seems to me, that the average person coming in from "Counter Strike" just would rather duke it out with other players until they get bored enough to log out for the evening. So, I guess whenever there is word of a new MMO, the first thing that's asked is, "Will there be PK/PvP?".
Look at the number of MMO's out there today. How many have some form of PvP? Almost all of them do now. I will say though that very few have open PvP. Lineage 2 has shown that it will not support high numbers of subscribers. Why? Maturity level of the gamer, pure and simple. What they need is an MMO that feels like and plays like an FPS. Then they would be home. But, alas, will probabl not happen. I doubt there's a true answer to all this, but at least I worked it off my chest. I like PvP, in it's place. PvP for the sake of PvP is basically just FPS. It takes maturity to know how to and when to PvP.
All I want is the truth
Just gimme some truth
John Lennon
Where's the option for "I don't usually participate, but I don't mind having it," or "I would prefer that PvP not be included at all," or "I like PvP, but I don't need it if the PvE is good enough"?
If you could go back into time, say 1999, what games would you find at the top of the popularity chart? How many actual MMO's were in existence then? Well, now it would take too long for me to list them all. Maybe someone has a link to list that shows this data from that particular year. I would have to say that most of the popular games of that time were FPS, (first person shooters). As I recall, the shelves were crammed packed full of various types of FPS games. MMO's? Well, I chose 1999, becuase I do believe this might be considered as the dawn of the modern-day MMO's that we know today. Final Fantasy, Everquest, Dark Age of Camelot, and the original Lineage were the top games of the age. Please add to this list if you know of any that were popular during that time. There were also several RPS games out there as well. Obviously, the FPS mode or style of play was the most popular and most probably remains so today, to some extent. For the most part PvP was the realm of FPS in general, with only a very few MMO exceptions.
Alright, now we will see as time goes by how many MMO's have tried to incorporate some type of PK/PvP system in their game play. Why? I think that they appreciate the size of the FPS market and how successful they have been with their console version games. They lure the FPS gamers into the role players realm with "open pvp". Is there a problem that develops? In a word, yes. Role players are generally quite happy with a slow and steady pace of adventuring/crafting and fellowship/storytelling, while FPSers generally want it all now and as quickly as possible or they get bored, (lol just read some of the "bored" posts in some of these forums
Lineage 2 is a good example of a game transformed from a very, very strong role playing game from the on-set in 2002 to an all out war now on some servers. PvP has it's place in MMO's. However, PvP is NOT the primary part of an MMO. It just isn't really. At first Lineage 2 was an example of seamless beauty and wonder. PvP was an incidental occasional part of adventuring. It generally was taken with a grain of salt and most mature, wise adventurers simply outsmarted the villains by means of another path. Castle sieging was the place where you shined brightest in PvP. There were also hunts for the notorious or the assassins hired by castle lords vile and wretched. As time went by, there became more and more "reds". It became a plague on the questing/adventuring. Forums seemed to overflow with complaints and examples of PKing gone wild. These foes of the honor-bound began to go onto forums and explain themselves. As they put it, they became tired of the extreme grind and found it more fun to go out to low level areas and hunt adventurers. This was the state of the game for quite some time. Now, I suppose it wouldn't be fair to speak for all the servers. I do however think they developed in a similar manner to mine. At any rate the story itself was changing as castle lords' greed grew to the point where these reds became for hire. Many created new players to be placed in the highest ranked clans. These clans made an alliance and then basically took the server and held it by force for a year. The red, in higher level areas was a sign to all that might venture near that they would be killed quickly and remorselessly not only by the red but with support from the ruling alliance of the time. Finally, and I suppose ultimately, there was born a resistance to this form of tyranny. On Gustin, in 2004 until mid 2005 this struggle ragged between the EA and Anti-EA. The term "carebear" was invented as a derogatory remark given to anyone attempting to stay out of the squabble between two basically vain individuals that just couldn't play on the same server. The neutral clans did survive all this fiasco, however, but the game would never return to it's former glory. Gustin still bleeds from the fallout. Gank-festing and trash talk is what it is. Just look on the official forum for examples. The wonder and adventure has gone. The lust for power and greed-mongering has taken hold. Chaotic, yes, but there is not beauty in it any , longer. Just another drive-by stabbing...
Basically, most PvPers are also avid FPSer and were before they were enticed into playing MMO's. I'm not sure what exactly they do that's beneficial for these games since many get bored of the MMO so quickly. There are very good and wonderful FPSers that have become avid MMOers, but seems to me, that the average person coming in from "Counter Strike" just would rather duke it out with other players until they get bored enough to log out for the evening. So, I guess whenever there is word of a new MMO, the first thing that's asked is, "Will there be PK/PvP?".
Look at the number of MMO's out there today. How many have some form of PvP? Almost all of them do now. I will say though that very few have open PvP. Lineage 2 has shown that it will not support high numbers of subscribers. Why? Maturity level of the gamer, pure and simple. What they need is an MMO that feels like and plays like an FPS. Then they would be home. But, alas, will probabl not happen. I doubt there's a true answer to all this, but at least I worked it off my chest. I like PvP, in it's place. PvP for the sake of PvP is basically just FPS. It takes maturity to know how to and when to PvP.Spoken like a true Gustin player ( there from Sept 04 -May 05)...I agree with everything you said but alas Pvp ( for me ) only means who can spend more on " The CC " . So many companies ( and Gamers ) are against it but thats a false.When a company says " Hey do what you gotta do " then " I am there " but all these others preaching what they don't practice ......nah
Waiting on Guild Wars 2
What was the earth shaking evolution of online gaming?
You started to face HUMAN oponents rather than mobs/npcs with idiotic AI.
That's the thrill. That's the evolution. The challenge. Tthat's the one step beyond.
MMORPGs are good for socializing, community, etc, but in the end if you don't face human oponents, you got nothing. You can just invite your friends in your house, and play some offline/single player game. Or just play a single player game yourself and socialize/commune yourself in some chat room.
Online games without pvp = half games
You get all the nice things of online gaming as I said, like socializing, playing along with hudrends of other (human) players, communicating, making politics etc and you exclude the one thing that maybe is what actually gives meaning to all these. Human confrontation. PvP.
And no, I'm not talking about "Ima the l33t dudez to pawnz U all". I'm talking about a normal person, who, as I said, enjoys to confront human oponents, oponents with inteligence, unpredictable, etc, than face same ole same ole idiotic AI.
Several things made people turn away from PvP.
All the idiotic asses of PKers on the one hand, who didn't just roleplay a bad guy, but kept on griefing and killing without a meaning. I mean, what's the challenge (PvP = challenge after all) if you kill a player 30 levels bellow you? What's the challenge if you gank a player while you are 10 and kill him? One thing to be in some short of a faction/enemy/guild war and got your enemy off guard and other thing to just find some "innocent" guy in the open and kill him because you can. That being said, if the game environment is truelly open and lets say a miner knows that to go mine gold (lets say it's the most precious ore) in that far mountain he has the risk of getting killed then he knows what he's going into when he walks down that valley. Risk Vs Reward is always an option. Then again you may tell me that the game guides me to must go mine gold because the best weapons/armors are crafted from this etc. Well I agree, so in this case, expect that mining the most precious of all metals would be very very difficult to do....solo, right? Gather some friends and go on a mining quest/event. Don't just whine, expecting you could mine the most precious of all alone and you got killed.
Another thing that made people turn away from PvP is the fear of losing their uber "Dragon Slayer +18" uber weapon etc. Well, that's the TRAP MMORPG companies set forth and we all stepped in. Where the perpetual hunt of uber items was the meaning of ingame life. Crafters meant nothing, cuz their crafted items were nowhere as good. To lose an item in pvp, with a chance to be that sword was unthinkable etc. Instead, if all items were player made and crafted items were equally good as "looted from NPCs/bosses/etc" items then people would not fear PvPing even if PvP was coming with a loss of items, because they could just craft more or buy more cheap or use some weapons they, themselves looted from others. I will not go on on this issue. I will quote Ultima Online, Eve Online and some other games that this happens.
But really, it all goes down to what I said initially.
THe revolution of online gaming goes down to facing the challenge to confront human oponents than a stupid AI. And everything in the games should be made around it (in a form to balance it and present a complete game (with the social/community/crafting/trade/etc aspect)) and not avoid it and push it to the background. Now we don't play MMORPGs. We play Single Player games in a multiplayer environment.
PVP is surly not needed, to have a great MMO. The only problem i really see with PVP is that, it always comes down to balance issues. Take any MMO from launch, that has PVP. In less than a month, the moang and btching starts on why class X always beats class Y.
Then the devs see this, and start tinkering and changing what their origional vision the game they created. Then what happens, they start to focus on the pvp side of the game and start lacking on the pve side, then before you know it, you are playing a game, that is differant than what you bought.
Pvp is fine, as long as the dev team can handle the balance issues, and not have to change to much, so to throw the pve game out of whack.
I agree with you. Nothing worse than to start having nerf calls in a game. Balancing issues though even through alot of beta testing mostly still won't stop the nerf and moaning from pvpers. PVP has a winner and a loser, and alot of people just don't want to lose.
This is where the devs i think in any game start to have a problem and thus start to neglect the rest of the game. So pvp is fun, but at what price to the overall game.
If the game is being developed with PvP being in mind as great part of the game then the PvE will find its way. And whatever nerfs take place to classes due to PvP will work their way out in pve too.
Example: I was playing Lineage II and I decided to make one of the best pvp classes, an Overlord, which was the MOST diffuclt to lvl (PvE) by far. What happened? While I was solo, I found myself advancing (lvl-ing) 3 or 5 times slower than any other class. Very frustrated. But once I joined my guild/friends they helped me lvl. After that we were friends PvEing, leveling etc as a company. Ofc some times I was left out if the grps were tight, but my problems were not so great in comparison if I was solo. And my satisfaction at the end game, playing one of the best classes in pvp was great. (Till some dude(s) with uber items bought with r/l money were coming along the way making me regret all the time I "wasted"....but that's another story).
Bottom line, I find it logical that maybe some class that is good for pvp may not be so good for pve, especially solo. We must not want everything. To play our class. To be good in pve and pvp and be able to get rich and etc.
Maybe that's one of the good things about RPGs. To make choises and live with the consequences. For better or worse.
odysseas70, your basic premise is quite mistaken. You assume that PvP is something everyone would enjoy, if they could only have a "good" PvP experience.
I assure you, there are many, many people out there who are simply not interested in PvP, no matter how well it's implemented.
Therefore, PvP is not the next step in the evolution of MMOGs, but rather one direction they can take. It's a perfectly valid direction, but so is the direction where developers eschew PvP in favor of a more satisfying PvE game. This could be accomplished through better AI, better writing, more interesting and engaging game mechanics, etc.
playing eq2 and two worlds
Hex, I agree with you.
There could just be different games so we could chose. This has full pvp, this has full pve, this has inbetween etc. (I was just stating my opinion that the "gift" of "online gaming" brought to us the revolution of actually being able to confront human intelligent oponents than an idiotic AI). However today more or less there are no full pvp games, only imitations (pve games that release a pvp server and thus pvp there sucks) or full pvp games that are "uber item" depended so you don't actually pvp "skill Vs skill" but "whoever spent most money on gold farmers" etc.
Eventually, it's like smoking. All the non-smokers started to whine (having ofc a valid reason), but instead of, lets say, having to chose between 2 planes to go from Europe to USA, 1 for smokers, 1 for non-smokers, now we have ended up having ONLY non-smoker planes. So the smokers actually are now the ones with no choice, the outcasts.
Aside from myself only Inf666, sempiternal, Novaseeker, tapeworm00 and Mado essentially get it, while WisebutCruel, Ohaan and Mylon sort of get but make serious errors in their judgement.
Pvp is basically a requirement because pvp is about human interaction. This why we play mmos. They are basically singleplayer games involving lots of people being there with you at the same time. We are social competitive creatures and pvp emphasizes that competitive element. Pvp isn't just about pkers, wars and gladitiorial events. It's also about selling your wares fo better profits than your compeition, racing against other player to new world bosses and elite level quests or gaining more and/or higher qulaity level of friends and allies than other guilds/social groups.
Does every MMO need pvp? No. The gaming market would be very fustrating and stale if every mmo incorporated competitive interaction with cooperative interaction. Their should be MMOs that cater solely to one aspect to cater to various consumers tastes and to really push the boundaries of what could be achieved in one sphere without having to consider the other sphere that encompasses mmo gameplay.
Chessack made a previous post that eloquently enough elaborates on why this is so better than anyone else here.
I'm just requoting a lot of the posts some people made because all other opinons expressed are subserviant to these posts because they don't understand the broader implications of the question being asked. Ironaically even the op doesn't get what he ended up asking.
Chessack's statement.
Brilliant!
This has turned out to be a great discussion, i've really enjoyed reading your views and taking on the critism about the poll options.
I'm of the firm opinion a title minus PVP of any kind is incomplete. Simply put the greatest opponent one can face in an MMO is another thinking human being. There's no comparison, there is no substitute.
However i'd be willing to change my opinion if a developer actually took this concentrating on one sphere theory and pushed it.
And no... that doesn't mean find a new way to grind levels..nor finding a new way to horde phat lewtz. i mean innovation. So yes, if you're going to concentrate on PVE and give us something new than let's see it.
If not I suggest companies continue adding PVP as a break from the tired grind cycle already in place today.
Dutchess Zarraa Voltayre
Reborn/Zero Sum/Ancient Legacy/Jagged Legion/Feared/Nuke & Pave.
Mutantmagnet, please try not to generalize. We are not all competitive creatures. Some people prefer to cooperate. Not cooperate against other players, just cooperate against the game.
All those "alternate" forms of PvP (competing for resources, getting the best gear) are just as annoying and/or uninteresting to a non-PvP player as PvP combat is. Sometimes more so.
Competition is important in most games, whatever form it takes. This whole topic really rests on your personal opinion of what "PvP" actually is.
DarkSpace Developer - Play DarkSpace - Play For Free!
Medusa Engine SDK - Free MMO Game Engine
Hampton Roads/East Coast Video Gamers Association
well, i started of as a strictly pve player. It was EQlive. Later i found out that there is a pvp server, where players kill other players.
And the idea sounded horrible to me! You can't go afk, anyone can kill you anywhere... not for me. Death from monsters was harsh enough penalty.
After 2 years of grinding, when everything got boring, i started to think about pvp more and more often. Then EQ2 was released, i joined it at a time when pvp servers were released. I went straight to pvp server. I remember my heart racing when i got involved in a pvp combat. That was SO different.
Well, now i just can't see a point in a mmorpg if there is no pvp. Monsters are not a challenge to me. Other players are. And i wouldn't even consider trying a mmo without a pvp... Unless it had everything i ever dreamt of. But that will never happen
So to me, pvp is required for a mmorpg to be fun.
If the ocean was vodka, and i were a duck, I'd swim to the bottom and drink my way up, but the ocean ain't vodka, and i ain't a duck so pass me a bottle and shut the **** up.