MMO/FPS crossover. What is it? Why do you want it?

gillvane1 · February 2007

I see a lot of calls for a MMO/FPS crossover sort of game. But honestly I don't know why. What would such a game be like?

Do you just want a FPS with more people in it, like Battlefield 2142 but with thousands of players fragging each other at the same time? I suppose big battles are cool, but I have plenty of fun on a 64 person game right now. There's plenty of people to shoot me, and for me to shoot. Who needs more?

But if you just want a really HUGE FPS game, I'm sure we'll work up to it slowly as the internet gets faster, servers will get bigger and bigger, in other words more than 64 players on a server.

Do you want your FPS characters to progress? What in the heck for? If you want "player skill" i.e. twitch to be the dominant factor in deciding combat, then you CANNOT have substantial progression. It's either your character progresses, and your character abilities are what are the deciding factor in combat, OR player skill is the determining factor. If a level 1 can kill a level 100 (or skills, or ranks, or whatever your increase in progression is) then obviously those "levels" don't mean squat. So why do you really want them if they don't mean anything?

In Battlefield 2142 you get better weapons, and go up in rank, which gives you a slight edge. But it's still the mouse and keyboard that decide the fight. If you put in even MORE progression into the game, it's no longer a FPS, because the character decides the battle, not the player.

It works the opposite way in an MMORPG. Put enough twitch in the game, and then the character progression doesn't mean anything any more, since the mouse and keyboard (or gamepad) skills determine the outcome of combat. In that case, it's Battlefield 2142, right?

When you're asking for this sort of crossover, aren't you saying I want player skill (mouse and keyboard or gamepad) to determine the outcome of the fight. But I also want to progress in the game, and I want the progression to be meaningful. But to be meaningful, the progression would have to be more important than the mouse and keyboard skill, but you want that too. I don't see it working so that you have both at the same time.

I'll just play FPS games when I want to shoot someone, and MMORPGs when I want to build a character and attack castles and whatnot.

mbblade · February 2007

they are out there and are pretty weird to begin with. Killing to get exp to lvl up and stuff is kinda out there but something diff from the rpg

b0rderline99 · February 2007

i thnk that an MMOFPS which tries to be like an RPG is a bad idea (i.e. levels and such) because FPSs are fun to play because of the action, and RPG elements are all about strategy and careful consideration. I know that BF2 has "ranks" where you can get new guns and that is fine, someone who just starts the game is fairly equal to a veteran yet there is still a slight advantage to long time players.

I think that people really want an MMOFPS to broaden the battlefield (make it way bigger/more players) and to incorporate more stategy into the fights.

Also i think people are looking for a large world which is nearly all capturable, with an incentive to capture territories.

No, i for one do not want an MMOFPS with levels, classes, and any sort of forced progression at all, i want a large scale battlefield with massive assaults (D-day esque), sieges, guerrilla warfare, and battles incorporating hundred (or thousands) of players

A.Dantes · February 2007

Perhaps it would be easier to understand if you don't think of it as adding MMO elements to a FPS but instead adding FPS elements to an MMO. I believe most of the calls for an MMO/FPS are just a desire for an MMO where the combat does not consist of auto attack or press buttons one through 4 until target is dead.

Xennith · February 2007

planetside. its good fun.

Jimmy_Scythe · February 2007

Everything that defines a player's abilities in an FPS is some kind of variable. Speed, hitpoints, armor, accuracy, etc. It's not to much of a stretch to think of someone getting some extra speed or a smaller cone of accuracy from "leveling up." You don't actually have to go this route with MMOFPS games though. Planetside managed to be amazing just from the sheer size of some of the battles. When the game was on, Planetside delivered an experience that just wasn't available in games like Battlefield 1942 or Unreal Tournament 200X.

Personally, I want more of an MMO third person beat 'em up. Seriously, how can you play any of the Dynasty Warrior games and NOT think of an MMO? This kind of game really lends itself to traditional MMORPG elements better. I can see people doing missions in order to learn new combos. Certain power moves could be associated with a particular weapon or piece of equipment. And with XP you could adjust your stats to fit your particular play style.

Of course, both those ideas are quite a ways off....

b0rderline99 · February 2007

Personally i want an MMOFPS (not planetside though because of that cone firing system) with no RPG elements.

I think one of those would sell REALLY well if it was well made. Who wouldnt want an counter-strike, unreal tournament, or Battlefield, with hundreds/thousands of players and a persistant world.??

Xpheyel · February 2007

Hmm. MMOFPSes are already around, and basically the idea would be a few really big servers with some persistence instead of single servers. This'll work ok if the game "defaults" are enough to make people happy, because you lose most all of the flexibility gained by individual servers.

I mean, take Counter Strike. The whole thing is essentially a mod. You're never going to get a different version of PlanetSide because Sony owns the whole thing. By now, if PlanetSide had been a normal FPS, it'd probably have the heck modded out of it to mitigate the CoF and CSHD. Instead you've got one (three shards geographically) server with Sony as the host.

Big battles are pretty fun, you can give PS a try for another month or so now I think.

-

In terms of twitch/RPG hybrids, I don't really "get" that either. I don't want to end up in situations where shooting someone five times in the head doesn't kill them because I'm 10 levels lower than them anymore than I want picked off by a newb with a sniper rifle that I'm 10 levels above. It hasn't really been done well IMO yet. Age of Conan and Chronicles of Spellborn might turn that around.

r3dbull · February 2007

The union of a FPS and a MMO it's a quite good thing!

In FPS games u have to kill ur enemies.

In MMORPG games u have to raise ur level, complete quests or whatever.

The union of the two things is fantastic

I think about GunZ. I enjoy that just cause it's a MMO/FPS game, where human player skill, and character abilities/level/equipement counts too!

It would be a great thing to create a MMORPG where the PVP part of the game is FPS like. That would be GREAT (or more

)

That's my point ^_^

Rekit · February 2007

I quote myself from another thread asking sorta similar questions, but the same answer applys.

Originally posted by Rekit

This is a limited catagory you are looking for. This is because MMO's have huge populations per server/chuck. To add FPS style game to a MMO would be great if it were possible atm. But due to bandwidth and sever resources it is very hard to make it work.
There is one I know of that is an MMO/FPS though. That is 'WWII Online' aka 'Battleground Europe'. it is a WWII themed game in a MMO environment that plays like a FPS. I was recommended this game as a MMO/FPS.

Technology as it stands can not make a 1000 player Counterstrike. as technology increases so will FPS populations. Take CS for example. years ago, HL engine supported 12 player servers, then an upgrade in technology, it went to 16, then 32. Now Battlefields took it to the next level and that is 64 player servers. I would bet that the next big change in FPS will be 128 player servers, but you will have to wait.

Kriminal99 · March 2007

fps/rpg hybrid is the bomb. You guys just need to see what it really looks like. The best example yet has been Neocron. In the beginning this game was alot better than it is now, but you can still kind of get an idea of what an fps/rpg is like.

I think some important factors of this type of game that most people don't think about when they judge the idea are:

Possibility for modified fps system: Neocron required aiming before shooting, just like Deus Ex did. You have to keep your crosshair on a target for a minute before you have a decent chance of hitting it. This makes things a bit less twtich based, and is probably an important factor considering latency attributes of a MMO with any kind of depth. I am sure there are other ways which an fps system can be modified so it is still much more fun than sandwich combat, but not over so fast that it doesn't matter what level you are or what items you have earned.

PVE content: A large part of such a game is how the PVE is done. People don't typically think of FPS's as having any pve, therefore it is hard to really imagine what an FPS/RPG would be like. In neocron for example, there were mobs that you fought using somewhat realistic tactics as using cover to fight mobs, grenading around corners etc. The mobs took time to kill as is typical in rpgs, rather than just being enemy soldiers that you shot in the head and then they died. The tactics used to kill harder mobs remind me somewhat of NES games like contra where you had to find a certain tactic and repeat it to kill the mob and if you screwed up you might die in a couple hits.

No one shot one kill: FPS usually brings up thoughts of opening a door or coming around a corner and being smacked in the face with a rocket or sniper bullet and instantly dying. Prolonging the fight with less damage and more health gives more opportunity for various tactics and equipment to come into play. Being able to blow someone away with a 2 dollar shotgun trivializes any development of character through leveling or aquisition of wealth.

gpett · March 2007

I want an MMOFPS because I like MMOS with he persistent world, character development, community, and immersive world. But, I hate MMOs combat systems. I do not like how MMOs are all about running up to a monster, standing in place, spaming your skills till one of you is dead. BORING!

If there was a game that had the fast paced dynamic combat of a FPS with all the fun parts of an MMO that would be the shit.

I am bored with the leveling treadmills, button mashing combat systems, and boring gameplay. Games should be fun to play. Character advancement for uber gear should not be your only motivation to play. Why not make the gameplay fun AND have character advancement? Sounds like a good combination to me.

It seems like there are at least 10 MMOFPS games coming down the pipes in the next year. I hope some of them get it right!

Mylon · March 2007

Originally posted by gpett

I want an MMOFPS because I like MMOS with he persistent world, character development, community, and immersive world. But, I hate MMOs combat systems. I do not like how MMOs are all about running up to a monster, standing in place, spaming your skills till one of you is dead. BORING!

If there was a game that had the fast paced dynamic combat of a FPS with all the fun parts of an MMO that would be the shit.

I am bored with the leveling treadmills, button mashing combat systems, and boring gameplay. Games should be fun to play. Character advancement for uber gear should not be your only motivation to play. Why not make the gameplay fun AND have character advancement? Sounds like a good combination to me.

It seems like there are at least 10 MMOFPS games coming down the pipes in the next year. I hope some of them get it right!

This is what I'm craving, too. A persistent world, in depth crafting, good character advancement system and good gameplay.

exanimo · March 2007

becose MMOs are huge and FPS have physics , merge those and we have something more near real life simulator.
thats where we are going.

Crezax · March 2007

Originally posted by gillvane1

If a level 1 can kill a level 100 (or skills, or ranks, or whatever your increase in progression is) then obviously those "levels" don't mean squat. So why do you really want them if they don't mean anything?

Most people just need a reward. For ex. take Counter-Strike, the most popular and played game in the world: It sucks, because it's just killing and killing over and over, and no reward for it, except that you improve your skill. In Battlefield 2/2142, sure you can get new weapons, grenades etc. But most people want more then 64 players.

I myself, can't wait for games like Fallen Earth. Who doesn't want a MMOFPS post-apocalypse based game?

And for the levels. There probably are skill-trees in the most games. And with that you can for ex.: Improve your damage, Improve your run speed, jump higher, more health/armor, heal yourself/repair your armor. Stuff like that! To have something like that as a goal to get, that is fun in my eyes.

Battlefield 2142 is fun yes, but it lacks something.

Gaaaaaahhhhhh!

Drafell · March 2007

If there was a game that had the fast paced dynamic combat of a FPS with all the fun parts of an MMO that would be the shit.

Ahem, try looking at my signature...

Admittedly, it's not an MMOFPS in the manner you are thinking as we choose to operate from a third person view (it is much more amenable to tactical awareness).

goneglockin · March 2007

If you're gonna make an FPS game- the FPS end of the game HAS to play like a traditional FPS game. Twitch. Hitboxes. Insta-Gibs. Skill. Or it is going to fail. (See the disgrace that is PlanetSide; lost over 95% of everyone to come through it's doors in under 18 months)

This means no bonuses to your stats; ever. You wanna turn FPS gamers off to MMOFPS; start giving out handicapps to people and watch them avoid it like the plague. (Again, see planetside) Oh sure, you might get a few downies from RPG games to come over and love it because they feel like they are pwning in a "real" FPS game; but you'll never have a successful product... more specifically a genre pioneer.

MMOFPS has failed because it has failed to have a pioneer. A game that attracts so many players; and makes so much money- that the rest of the industry has to copy it. (See EverQuest) Why hasn't MMOFPS caught on? No pioneer. Why hasn't there been a pioneer? Because people on MMORPG.com and people in the MMORPG business don't have CLUE 1 about how to make even a basic FPS game. An MMOFPS needs to be made for FPS gamers first and foremost; or it will be another PlanetSide; failed and forgotten- rest assured.

Once an MMOFPS is a pioneer- then you will see many new MMOFPS; some of which will cater to the RPG folks who want to play a dumbed down FPS game in which you fight with nerf weapons that take 5 seconds of continuous fire point blank to kill someone. (Not far off from PlanetSide)

But until then; will you orcs and dorks noobs please keep your nose out of where it does not belong? Your holding back progress. SOE has held back progress.

MMOFPS would be a multi-million subscriber genre almost overnight if a company like iD software, Vivendi; or hell even Sierra- would take a crack at it. These are people who know what they're doing.

So what's an MMOFPS got to offer? Well if you've never been airborne and seen thousands of rounds of multi-colored tracer fire flying back and forth across an outdoor battle field coming from hundreds of players on each side. You have no idea.

What's it got to offer that's deep? Global domination. Territorial pissing matches.

What's it got to offer in terms of character development? In your narrow minded sense of level grind to get xp to become more uber bad ass? Nothing. Advancenment in MMOFPS comes in the form of leadership positions on a ladder; which you get according to how you perform and how worthy your peers democratically feel you are.

Economy? There's room for an economy sure; but it would have to be purely aesthetic/meaningless to the fighting. Should you be able to purchase bases, housing, trinketts and junk? Sure, why not. Should you be able to purchase better gear? Absolutely not. If you're gonna compromise like that on gameplay balance; you might as well just have turn-based, dice-roll based combat- because FPS gamers hate that shit and anything like it.

gpett · March 2007

Originally posted by goneglockin

If you're gonna make an FPS game- the FPS end of the game HAS to play like a traditional FPS game. Twitch. Hitboxes. Insta-Gibs. Skill. Or it is going to fail. (See the disgrace that is PlanetSide; lost over 95% of everyone to come through it's doors in under 18 months)
This means no bonuses to your stats; ever. You wanna turn FPS gamers off to MMOFPS; start giving out handicapps to people and watch them avoid it like the plague. (Again, see planetside) Oh sure, you might get a few downies from RPG games to come over and love it because they feel like they are pwning in a "real" FPS game; but you'll never have a successful product... more specifically a genre pioneer.
MMOFPS has failed because it has failed to have a pioneer. A game that attracts so many players; and makes so much money- that the rest of the industry has to copy it. (See EverQuest) Why hasn't MMOFPS caught on? No pioneer. Why hasn't there been a pioneer? Because people on MMORPG.com and people in the MMORPG business don't have CLUE 1 about how to make even a basic FPS game. An MMOFPS needs to be made for FPS gamers first and foremost; or it will be another PlanetSide; failed and forgotten- rest assured.

I disagree. Planetside was not successful for other reasons. Planetside did not create a living breathing world for players to play in. Planetside neglected the community and social aspects of the game. There is no crafting in Planetside. Planetside is merely a shooter that allows lots of people to play. If planetside chose to have towns, a crafting system, places for players to socialize, a more immersive persistent world, and the things that make you want to explore the world you are in it would have been much more popular.

It was too sterile. There was no cool or wow factor (not the bliz game). They did not have a sense of humor while making it.

There will be some games in the future that accomplish this. And I will be playing them!

vontornm · March 2007

Well I just want to through my two cents in on this topic. I have read time and time again about PVP and FPS.

Well I could care less if the game is a MMOFPS if the game has something that is beyond a level grind fest.

I was a SWG player and it was my first MMO (I miss that game dearly) the one thing that I think was the best part about the mechanics of that game was the skill tree system.

It would allow you use a set amount of skill points (250) to train in the areas you wanted and you gained XP from performing that skill.

There are games that are coming out that claim to adopt that type of thing but I think the one point about the Old SWG skill system that is over looked in a lot of posts is the fact that you could unlearn a skill and get the skill points back.

One advantage of no lvls in the game was that you could always group with anyone and hunt or raid. Yes there were some XP losses to a group of lower skilled players in a group of masters. But so what, if I was the unskilled player I would still get some xp off ever kill.

I think setting character advancement to a level system limits the experience and also sets the thing I have heard so much about in other games .. The END GAME factor. I don’t ever remember hearing that in the Pre-CU SWG because there was no such thing.

So in a nut shell I don’t care if a FPS, RPG, or a MMO, I would like to see someone make a game that removed all the limitations of the level system and of course was not a loot based game. And BTW I have tried almost everything that is on the market and beta tested a lot.

All I see in the future is the manufactures going with the same old try to get the WoW numbers in some newly skinned version of the same old thing.

If some one can show me a sandbox that I can unlearn skills and not have to re-roll a toon to do it, I’ll be all over that. And as always if SWG was back to Pre-CU I would be all over that with my 9 accounts again.

Sorry if this is a little off topic.

goneglockin · March 2007

You guys are totally clueless. An initial successful MMOFPS that pioneers the genre will have ABSOLUTELY NOTHING TO DO WITH THE ORCS AND DORKS FOLKS THAT POPULATE THE MMORPG REALM.

You know who's gonna make an MMOFPS successful? The 10 million + FPS gamers out there looking for the latest and greatest. Catching even a fraction of them means overnight success. Crafting? No. Stick to RPGs; and wait your turn; and quit holding back progress on the MMOFPS by sticking your nose where it does not belong.

daadamo · March 2007

Originally posted by goneglockin

You guys are totally clueless. An initial successful MMOFPS that pioneers the genre will have ABSOLUTELY NOTHING TO DO WITH THE ORCS AND DORKS FOLKS THAT POPULATE THE MMORPG REALM.
You know who's gonna make an MMOFPS successful? The 10 million + FPS gamers out there looking for the latest and greatest. Catching even a fraction of them means overnight success. Crafting? No. Stick to RPGs; and wait your turn; and quit holding back progress on the MMOFPS by sticking your nose where it does not belong.

I'm sorry...why the hell are you even a registered member of MMORPG.com? Are you slumming? All the FPS forums getting too boring for you that you have to register here and kick virtual sand in the faces of fans of MMORPG's?

You are calling all fans of MMORPG's clueless dorks, screaming your superiority in caps and beating your chest. And you wonder why you can't seem to make friends with anyone other than your rifle...

Lighten up Francis.

goneglockin · March 2007

I originally migrated this way across the internets many moons ago- during a trying time in which lame ass EverQuest clones began to dominate the genre; and eventually destroy it as we see today.

I'm from ultima online.

But as I said that was many moons ago. Now MMOFPS looms on the horizon; and again- I see you fools meddling in the business of a proven formula. You've already ruined one genre (MMORPG) with your infectious garbage- so please; leave the future of my MMOFPS games alone.

Planetside has done enough damage already.

Rehmes · March 2007

I want the cross over between the genres because it offers something i love of both sides.

I want to have fps combat while having a persistant character in a persistant world (Huxley comes to mind).

I want to have massive battles between players with all the works of a war (APCs, Tanks, Helos, Jets etc etc.)

I want to be able to enter the city and socialize with my clannies and other people i may not know (after all thats how you meet friends....or enemies lol)

Crafting? If done correctly i wouldnt mind....hell take it further into vehicle engineering.

I want to be able to customize my character not have the Government Issue Soldier No. 546546432 (BOBBY)

Those are but a few of the things that i want in this cross over and im sure many do to. FPS games are fun but i am not the kind of person to play 10 hrs of BF2 cuz ill be bred to death, i need more interation with people other than "assemble in -------, take your position in ------- ; and so on. I want to see that the results of a war affects the world as a whole, i think that could bring something fresh and amazing to all players in either side. For the hardcore FPS players who bash this crossover.....well you still got the good ol FPS games to stick to those and let us be.

Inf666 · March 2007

I mostly want to have a MMOFPS because it is the player skill that decides who wins an engegement. I am tired of the level based no skill engagements where items and stats decide the fight. I want a good player to be able to fight against 3 bad players and win.

A MMOFPS can have the same things as every other "normal" MMORPG. Economy, crafting, questing are still possible. If you think these things cannot work together with player skill then you are wrong.

Player skill: Player skill for me is that the actions of the player before or in the fight decide the outcome. These are: Selecting your items, selecting the skills you want to use, using a proper strategy before the fight (cat and mouse), reflexes/movement/aiming in fight as well as good tactics. Getting items should not be hard or take lots of time (only little farming). You choose your items accordingly to your strategy/tactic.

Character progression: A MMO without some sort of progression will never be successful. How do you combine progression and player skill without a level system?

The answer is uniqueness. I start playing a standard character. This character has a starting skill set. A capable player will be able to play well in pvp with this character but the character is not unique and predictable (good players will still kill with headshots no problem). Progression would be that you would be able to change the fighting style of your character. You acquire or replace skills and slowly but surely get a different style. All together the character does not get "stronger" but will be more unique and more unpredictable.

When you fight against a character with 0 experience you will know his capabilities. If you play against someone with a lot of experience you will not know what to expect or maybe a bit if you see the gear he is using. Experience can be accumulated by killing npcs (grinding), doing quests, doing pvp, etc. and can be used to buy/trade skills.

MMOFPS games have two main problems:

- Todays hardware and software is still not capable of creating a huge world with the exactness needed for FPS-style games as in counterstrike. Because of this aiming and movement is not an option in todays MMO.

- Most players do not have skill or no time to acquire skill. Thats simply the way it is. Its one thing to control your toon in wow/eq/etc.. its another to gain the control needed for counterstrike etc. Most players will have no chance against the player group migrating from online fps games and then leave the game. If pvp in wow were player skill based and especially with consequences then pvp would be dead. Only a select few (the top 20% pvpers) would roam the world looking for victims. Thats why you need to give players a different way to win fights (skill combinations, item combinations, group dynamics, strategy, tactics).

daadamo · March 2007

Originally posted by Rehmes

I want the cross over between the genres because it offers something i love of both sides.
I want to have fps combat while having a persistant character in a persistant world (Huxley comes to mind).
I want to have massive battles between players with all the works of a war (APCs, Tanks, Helos, Jets etc etc.)
I want to be able to enter the city and socialize with my clannies and other people i may not know (after all thats how you meet friends....or enemies lol)
Crafting? If done correctly i wouldnt mind....hell take it further into vehicle engineering.
I want to be able to customize my character not have the Government Issue Soldier No. 546546432 (BOBBY)
Those are but a few of the things that i want in this cross over and im sure many do to. FPS games are fun but i am not the kind of person to play 10 hrs of BF2 cuz ill be bred to death, i need more interation with people other than "assemble in -------, take your position in ------- ; and so on. I want to see that the results of a war affects the world as a whole, i think that could bring something fresh and amazing to all players in either side. For the hardcore FPS players who bash this crossover.....well you still got the good ol FPS games to stick to those and let us be.

I agree with you.

The merger would allow for more immersion. I liked what Planetside attempted to do, it just didn't go far enough. I like the looks of Fallen Earth, what they are doing looks interesting.

Your right, the hardcore FPS will always be there. So it is obvious that Goneglockin is full of hate towards the MMORPG genre, maybe he had a bad experience roleplaying a beautiful elven maiden that went horribly wrong. That's ok, maybe the community will embrace him and allow him to let go of his anger. We are here for you bro.

ayando · March 2007

I think the idea here would be to wait for the release of Huxley, see how it answers the questions posed in this thread, and then go from there.

Also Hellgate London, although not an mmo, might be a step in the right direction...

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