The biggest problem with Vanguard. Was that their client is horrible, the game isn't very original, and they seem to have forgotten that 5 groups camping in line to kill "Gra'ak, the Jail Keeper" is not fun.
I played the beta, and I liked the class system, but when by 8th level I started running into rampant camping already. I remembered why I left EQ1 is the first place, especially now that I have kids, and a job.
What I simply don't understand is these Sigil guys. They are EQ1 guys and I am sure their lives have changed with possibly kids, Wives, and of course demanding jobs. I am sure they would not be able to spend the time to play Vanguard. Why did they think us old EQ1 guys have that same sort of time? They are making a game that they themselves could not even play.
Brilliant post, I have been trying to say this for a long time.
It is not like time has been standing still for us old timers, I wonder why Sigil thinks it has.
Perhaps because EQ destroyed quite a few college educations and whatnot and they simply think we would still be living in our moms basement and be unemployed?
None the less, what Tnice said is probably the most important issue that Sigil seems to have completely overlooked.
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------ Originally posted by Jerek_
I wonder if you honestly even believe what you type, or if you live in a made up world of facts. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
I’m sure as many of you may be starting to notice there have been a few changes to the death mechanics with our move to Build 1799, at this point we have not published patch notes for them as they are experimental, however, we still very much so appreciate your feedback on them!
The current changes are:
- You will no longer leave a corpse when you die; instead you will drop an essence.
- You no longer leave items (Soulbound or not) on your essence.
- Essences will return a large amount of experience upon retrieval.
- Your essence will decay after 70 hours.
- Altars will still allow you to summon corpses from before the patch on 3/30/07 (Build 1799), however, you are unable to summon essences.
- The amount of experience lost when you die has been decreased.
These changes are part of our ongoing plan to improve your experience while playing vanguard without removing the risk involved. Please realize that these may be changed and modified as we continuously test them to ensure the best gameplay experience is achieved.
We welcome you to discuss your feedback, experiences, and concerns in this thread as we work together to make Vanguard even better!
I had my bets on at least 6 months before they did something like this. So much for Vanguard being "hardcore". what I don't get about the changes, if they say themselves that testing is ongoing and things can change again - isn't that what a test-server is for? unless of course, noone really plays there (yet)....
what I don't get about the changes, if they say themselves that testing is ongoing and things can change again - isn't that what a test-server is for? unless of course, noone really plays there (yet)....
Since the game is in live Beta every server is a test server. When the game gets to a retail state the test server will be the only test server. That should be in about a year, or two, or three, or..........
More dummying down and alienating the original hardcore target audience.
I warned them these so called "hardcore" were very small in number, how many people without jobs are there playing MMORPG's?
I can't wait till this game is cancelled, exactly as I warned them it would be. The huge numbers of casuals in relation to the puny numbers that play games to much will let everyone know who to make games for. All the casuals know Brad screws them by giving raiders 100 times better gear and we aren't buying his B.S. ever again! The anti-raider has assended! Down with the puny raider population!
If you have any questions please ask. I have moved on to WoW from eq and no longer have any desire to play a dead game. Thank you. (posted by another selling his account in EQ1)
More dummying down and alienating the original hardcore target audience.
I warned them these so called "hardcore" were very small in number, how many people without jobs are there playing MMORPG's?
I can't wait till this game is cancelled, exactly as I warned them it would be. The huge numbers of casuals in relation to the puny numbers that play games to much will let everyone know who to make games for. All the casuals know Brad screws them by giving raiders 100 times better gear and we aren't buying his B.S. ever again! The anti-raider has assended! Down with the puny raider population!
Vanboys don't realize it, they think that Vanguard only consists of hardcore players.
People don't have time and don't want to play all day. EQ was different because it was the only 3D MMORPG you could play.
I have a simple solution for the "Hardcore ~vs~ Care Bear" crowd. For those who are so pumped and can't stand to see the masses not punished with harsh death penalties and long corpse runs, make a stand. Don't allow your healers to Revive in Raids and Groups. Your old fashioned and hardcore, fight your way back so you learn from your mistakes and eat those deaths so you won't forget that dieing is a bad thing.
How many players in EQ-1 had "Pocket Clerics" that they would keep around in case of a complete wipe in a Raid or Group? Quite a few. This "hardcore" death mantra really is nothing more than "I have a reviver available, you don't , so suffer".
If your one of those few that really feel that the whole hardcore value of the game is determined on how badly you can be punished for mistakes then I don't think you truly grasp the concept of what a challenge really is. To me a challenge is working on the methods to accomplish something just barely within your grasp, not simply avoiding death because of the loss of experience.
Edit: I rate this argument up there with the ones in EQ-1/EQ-2 where the Druids and Wizards complain that travel is too easy in the game, people should have to hoof it everywhere....or use ports (for donations of course). Because you have a means of circumventing the mechanics of what you call hardcore (death and travel) with a reviver or portal, you feel the mechanics should not provide the same opportunity for those without that ability.
A topic near and dear to my heart, the "meaningful death theory"
Self punishment teaches me lessons: If your honestly that anal retentive where you need to be punished after making some dumb mistake that most likely you knew was dumb (you know, that famous mis-target) then odds are you won't learn anyway if they made the debt 20%.
Death is Hardcore and a great part of the game: I guess I'm not hardcore because I take chances and sometimes die instead of sitting in a group in with a class with the ability to revive group members. Most "hardcore" groupers that I know always have someone who can revive and summon in the groups. Funny how people who tend to either group with healers or die very seldom always support harsh penalties. Don't dumb down the game with less of a death penalty: To harsh of a penalty dumbs down the game because people are more reluctant to test their capacity and try new things for fear of wasting 6 hours of experience on 15 minutes of experimenting.
We don't need to cater to casual care-bears: There already is quite a "carebear" system in the game with players being able to revive other players. I seriously doubt that there are "hardcore guilds" out there that don't allow revives in raids because you should have to run all the way back to learn a lesson.
It's a game people:
If you don't die very often then the change has little effect on you so why should you care. If you do die often, then decreasing the severity of death may just help you enjoy the game a little more and that's why we all should be playing in the first place. Why should I feel any better knowing that someone who is ready to quit out of frustration is having a miserable time in the game? If I'm really that selfish, then I should accept that their monthly subscription helps pay for the development of the game and in turn will help me.
I have often wondered if the people that post the things about the death penalty needing to be as severe as possible would insist on a ticket instead of a warning if pulled over for speeding. "No Officer, give me the ticket I deserve, otherwise when I leave here I will speed off at 100 mph because I won't understand why you pulled me over".
I also wanted to add that death is the consequence many times of a failed challenge. For those who succeed in the challenge (encounter) without a death, there is less of a repair cost and more time to meet the next challenge. For those who fail often in means having to start over on that challenge or walk away. Those who play MMoG's for the most part play it for the challenge and those who play well enjoy taking on more content with a great deal of pride in knowing they often beat the challenge with few deaths. Those who don't fair quite as well really don't need to be constantly reminded of their lack of tactics/ability through endless meaningless grinds.
As well as this discussion seems logical..I have to disagree with it..
Tell me something..even thou i agree that things get "harder" if you just play a MMO without a healer or run around naked..Why would anyone do that aslong as they have access to a healer or armor..Isnt this what MMO's is all about "ACCESS" to things ?
Because one of the main aspects of a MMORPG is to get into a guild and get to know lots of new friends etc..And based from the foundation of the guild get stronger toghether and get things EASIER done in the gameworld..
As a loner you are bound to get a tougher time in any game..not just Vanguard ..yes even WoW....
Again..There is a thin line in this..and the developers needs to balance the risk versus reward well...
A game that is "to hard" for some will alienate those people and a game that is to easy will alienate people that wants a big challange..
But then again..Is a harch death penalty really something that makes the game harder ?
More dummying down and alienating the original hardcore target audience.
I warned them these so called "hardcore" were very small in number, how many people without jobs are there playing MMORPG's?
I can't wait till this game is cancelled, exactly as I warned them it would be. The huge numbers of casuals in relation to the puny numbers that play games to much will let everyone know who to make games for. All the casuals know Brad screws them by giving raiders 100 times better gear and we aren't buying his B.S. ever again! The anti-raider has assended! Down with the puny raider population!
WoW>EQ thats why there are 8 million+ playing WoW while EQ wastes away.
Wow. Casuals fo lyfe! rofl
It's called learning to play, try it. I have a job, work third shift even, yet I can still raid in MMO's. Also, how is Vanguard a raiding MMO when they don't even have end-game content in, tell me that?
Or are you just another no-skill WoW idiot? Numbers don't mean everything, after all, the majority of the US voted for George Bush. Again. Mariah Carey sells albums. Why does WoW have so many subs? Because there are a lot of morons in the world. Oh noes, somebody called you out, throw up your WoW defense bubble and hearth out!
I have a simple solution for the "Hardcore ~vs~ Care Bear" crowd. For those who are so pumped and can't stand to see the masses not punished with harsh death penalties and long corpse runs, make a stand. Don't allow your healers to Revive in Raids and Groups. Your old fashioned and hardcore, fight your way back so you learn from your mistakes and eat those deaths so you won't forget that dieing is a bad thing.
How many players in EQ-1 had "Pocket Clerics" that they would keep around in case of a complete wipe in a Raid or Group? Quite a few. This "hardcore" death mantra really is nothing more than "I have a reviver available, you don't , so suffer".
If your one of those few that really feel that the whole hardcore value of the game is determined on how badly you can be punished for mistakes then I don't think you truly grasp the concept of what a challenge really is. To me a challenge is working on the methods to accomplish something just barely within your grasp, not simply avoiding death because of the loss of experience.
Edit: I rate this argument up there with the ones in EQ-1/EQ-2 where the Druids and Wizards complain that travel is too easy in the game, people should have to hoof it everywhere....or use ports (for donations of course). Because you have a means of circumventing the mechanics of what you call hardcore (death and travel) with a reviver or portal, you feel the mechanics should not provide the same opportunity for those without that ability.
That's not the only thing they've changed though. If this were a mere death penalty change, it would be one thing. Instead they increased xp and decreased mob health. They have turned this game into a eunich. Vanguard was supposed to be a hard MMO, now it's just cruising on easy mode.
More dummying down and alienating the original hardcore target audience.
I warned them these so called "hardcore" were very small in number, how many people without jobs are there playing MMORPG's?
I can't wait till this game is cancelled, exactly as I warned them it would be. The huge numbers of casuals in relation to the puny numbers that play games to much will let everyone know who to make games for. All the casuals know Brad screws them by giving raiders 100 times better gear and we aren't buying his B.S. ever again! The anti-raider has assended! Down with the puny raider population!
WoW>EQ thats why there are 8 million+ playing WoW while EQ wastes away.
Wow. Casuals fo lyfe! rofl
It's called learning to play, try it. I have a job, work third shift even, yet I can still raid in MMO's. Also, how is Vanguard a raiding MMO when they don't even have end-game content in, tell me that?
Or are you just another no-skill WoW idiot? Numbers don't mean everything, after all, the majority of the US voted for George Bush. Again. Mariah Carey sells albums. Why does WoW have so many subs? Because there are a lot of morons in the world. Oh noes, somebody called you out, throw up your WoW defense bubble and hearth out!
The beauty of WoW and why it is so successful is that it is for both the casual and the hardcore. It has excellent, hard core, end game content for those that like to raid. Alternatively, it is easy to pick up and level up.
The people who bash WoW as being a "kiddie" game or only for gimps lets me know that they have not really played WoW or have not be a part of a high end raiding Guild.
The various game mechanics such as a harsh death penalty, slow XP, long travel timesinks do not make a game hardcore nor does it make a game challenging. It only makes the game annoying as hell.
More dummying down and alienating the original hardcore target audience.
I warned them these so called "hardcore" were very small in number, how many people without jobs are there playing MMORPG's?
I can't wait till this game is cancelled, exactly as I warned them it would be. The huge numbers of casuals in relation to the puny numbers that play games to much will let everyone know who to make games for. All the casuals know Brad screws them by giving raiders 100 times better gear and we aren't buying his B.S. ever again! The anti-raider has assended! Down with the puny raider population!
WoW>EQ thats why there are 8 million+ playing WoW while EQ wastes away.
Wow. Casuals fo lyfe! rofl
It's called learning to play, try it. I have a job, work third shift even, yet I can still raid in MMO's. Also, how is Vanguard a raiding MMO when they don't even have end-game content in, tell me that?
Or are you just another no-skill WoW idiot? Numbers don't mean everything, after all, the majority of the US voted for George Bush. Again. Mariah Carey sells albums. Why does WoW have so many subs? Because there are a lot of morons in the world. Oh noes, somebody called you out, throw up your WoW defense bubble and hearth out!
The beauty of WoW and why it is so successful is that it is for both the casual and the hardcore. It has excellent, hard core, end game content for those that like to raid. Alternatively, it is easy to pick up and level up.
The people who bash WoW as being a "kiddie" game or only for gimps lets me know that they have not really played WoW or have not be a part of a high end raiding Guild.
The various game mechanics such as a harsh death penalty, slow XP, long travel timesinks do not make a game hardcore nor does it make a game challenging. It only makes the game annoying as hell.
WoW isn't fun to me. That's what it boils down to. Nothing in the game is difficult, nothing is rewarding. Without difficulty, regardless of what gear you get, it isn't going to feel worth it. I don't bash it for being a kiddie game, I bash it for being an easy cash in on a demographic. I also find it hilarious when people say WoW is better than other MMO's because all WoW is is just a mish-mash of older MMO's watered down to fit the casuals that don't want to actually experience a game. Instead they'd rather sit back nuking their day away without a care in the world. I'd like a game with my PvP.
I’m sure as many of you may be starting to notice there have been a few changes to the death mechanics with our move to Build 1799, at this point we have not published patch notes for them as they are experimental, however, we still very much so appreciate your feedback on them!
The current changes are:
- You will no longer leave a corpse when you die; instead you will drop an essence.
- You no longer leave items (Soulbound or not) on your essence.
- Essences will return a large amount of experience upon retrieval.
- Your essence will decay after 70 hours.
- Altars will still allow you to summon corpses from before the patch on 3/30/07 (Build 1799), however, you are unable to summon essences.
- The amount of experience lost when you die has been decreased.
These changes are part of our ongoing plan to improve your experience while playing vanguard without removing the risk involved. Please realize that these may be changed and modified as we continuously test them to ensure the best gameplay experience is achieved.
We welcome you to discuss your feedback, experiences, and concerns in this thread as we work together to make Vanguard even better!
See you in Telon,
- The Vanguard Team
OMG.....isn't that what EQ2 was at launch? leaving a Soulshard for you to go back and pick up and not do anymore corpse runs??
And I hear that EQ2 isn't doing the Soul Shard anymore either!!!! it's more like WOW now!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
I knew Vanguard was going to go downhill fast...but wow...sounds like they're really struggling to keep it together now.
More dummying down and alienating the original hardcore target audience.
I warned them these so called "hardcore" were very small in number, how many people without jobs are there playing MMORPG's?
I can't wait till this game is cancelled, exactly as I warned them it would be. The huge numbers of casuals in relation to the puny numbers that play games to much will let everyone know who to make games for. All the casuals know Brad screws them by giving raiders 100 times better gear and we aren't buying his B.S. ever again! The anti-raider has assended! Down with the puny raider population!
WoW>EQ thats why there are 8 million+ playing WoW while EQ wastes away.
Wow. Casuals fo lyfe! rofl
It's called learning to play, try it. I have a job, work third shift even, yet I can still raid in MMO's. Also, how is Vanguard a raiding MMO when they don't even have end-game content in, tell me that?
Or are you just another no-skill WoW idiot? Numbers don't mean everything, after all, the majority of the US voted for George Bush. Again. Mariah Carey sells albums. Why does WoW have so many subs? Because there are a lot of morons in the world. Oh noes, somebody called you out, throw up your WoW defense bubble and hearth out!Are you another no-lifer? You work third shift and still raid, How? ALL raids are in the P.M. I doupt you work thats what these lifeless raiders are, JOBLESS!
If you have any questions please ask. I have moved on to WoW from eq and no longer have any desire to play a dead game. Thank you. (posted by another selling his account in EQ1)
You still can't explain the pitiful 156k players and falling this game has? It is because idiot, lazy, "hardcore"=lifeless and can't support a game. DIE VANGUARD DIE!!!!!!!!!!! It will happen!!!!!!!!!
If you have any questions please ask. I have moved on to WoW from eq and no longer have any desire to play a dead game. Thank you. (posted by another selling his account in EQ1)
Like a few said before, the old school hard core players are very few. many have jobs and family now and cannot endure what they did before. Also keep in mind that all these " Hardcore " settings were set in the game to deter the player due to lack of content. Now that mmos have evolved there really is no need for these time sinks unless the company is not capable to realease content in a timely manner.
If you take out all the time needed to travel, recover from exp loss , ect,. Vanguard will have less content than many mmos, this game needs people to spend hours to get someplace or hours to do somthing just to spread out the content.
I just find it funny that as more content is added or "fixed" some of those timesinks are lessened.
would not suprize me a bit as more caves, dungeons, cities, ect are added in, then suddenly your mounts are given more speed or new faster mounts will be introduced to lower the time sink to get to em.
Vanguards world was to massive to begin with, sigil bit off more than they could chew. Having eq2 as an example of how many expantions can make the game to big for3 to 5 k people making it look barren (more on eq2 due to the sheer amount of zones. As the months go by its going to be apparent how barren Vanguard is going to be as most of its playerbase starts to lvl up, new people will find the massive amounts of starting zones barren . They could have gotten away with making vanguard with 1 continent and polish it then add the other 2 as expantions as they finish the content on those. prob would have netted more money and more players.
its a pity to see a game unfinished as vanguard, comeon no helm grafics while there are free to play games that have em.
Well lets hope they can polish it on time and start drawing the crowd where the money is at. its a pity to see 30 million go to waste like this
Watching Fanbois drop their soap in a prison full of desperate men.
This game won't be around long with its falling player population. I am not surprised, Brad and crew are totaly without talent and EQ1 was lucky it had no competition.
More dummying down and alienating the original hardcore target audience.
I warned them these so called "hardcore" were very small in number, how many people without jobs are there playing MMORPG's?
I can't wait till this game is cancelled, exactly as I warned them it would be. The huge numbers of casuals in relation to the puny numbers that play games to much will let everyone know who to make games for. All the casuals know Brad screws them by giving raiders 100 times better gear and we aren't buying his B.S. ever again! The anti-raider has assended! Down with the puny raider population!
WoW>EQ thats why there are 8 million+ playing WoW while EQ wastes away.
Wow. Casuals fo lyfe! rofl
It's called learning to play, try it. I have a job, work third shift even, yet I can still raid in MMO's. Also, how is Vanguard a raiding MMO when they don't even have end-game content in, tell me that?
Or are you just another no-skill WoW idiot? Numbers don't mean everything, after all, the majority of the US voted for George Bush. Again. Mariah Carey sells albums. Why does WoW have so many subs? Because there are a lot of morons in the world. Oh noes, somebody called you out, throw up your WoW defense bubble and hearth out!
The beauty of WoW and why it is so successful is that it is for both the casual and the hardcore. It has excellent, hard core, end game content for those that like to raid. Alternatively, it is easy to pick up and level up.
The people who bash WoW as being a "kiddie" game or only for gimps lets me know that they have not really played WoW or have not be a part of a high end raiding Guild.
The various game mechanics such as a harsh death penalty, slow XP, long travel timesinks do not make a game hardcore nor does it make a game challenging. It only makes the game annoying as hell.
WoW isn't fun to me. That's what it boils down to. Nothing in the game is difficult, nothing is rewarding. Without difficulty, regardless of what gear you get, it isn't going to feel worth it. I don't bash it for being a kiddie game, I bash it for being an easy cash in on a demographic. I also find it hilarious when people say WoW is better than other MMO's because all WoW is is just a mish-mash of older MMO's watered down to fit the casuals that don't want to actually experience a game. Instead they'd rather sit back nuking their day away without a care in the world. I'd like a game with my PvP.
You prove my point. Saying that WoW is "watered down to fit casuals" shows your depth of knowledge for WoW. One of the premier Ex-EQ1 raiding guilds is a WoW Guild (http://wow.fohguild.org/applications/FoHApplication.php).
My guess is that you looked at the WoW graphics and played to ..oh..say.. level 20 or so and quit. Plus your statement "sit back nuking their day away" displays a high level of ignorance about the game. Given that statement you may not have even played it.
A couple of years of hype about the "vision" and this is what we get.
Brad's "Vision" + running out of money + SOE = players paying to alpha test an unoriginal, visionless piece of crap while money goes into the pockets of Vision-boy and his good buddy Smed.
A topic near and dear to my heart, the "meaningful death theory"
Self punishment teaches me lessons: If your honestly that anal retentive where you need to be punished after making some dumb mistake that most likely you knew was dumb (you know, that famous mis-target) then odds are you won't learn anyway if they made the debt 20%.
Death is Hardcore and a great part of the game: I guess I'm not hardcore because I take chances and sometimes die instead of sitting in a group in with a class with the ability to revive group members. Most "hardcore" groupers that I know always have someone who can revive and summon in the groups. Funny how people who tend to either group with healers or die very seldom always support harsh penalties. Don't dumb down the game with less of a death penalty: To harsh of a penalty dumbs down the game because people are more reluctant to test their capacity and try new things for fear of wasting 6 hours of experience on 15 minutes of experimenting.
We don't need to cater to casual care-bears: There already is quite a "carebear" system in the game with players being able to revive other players. I seriously doubt that there are "hardcore guilds" out there that don't allow revives in raids because you should have to run all the way back to learn a lesson.
It's a game people:
If you don't die very often then the change has little effect on you so why should you care. If you do die often, then decreasing the severity of death may just help you enjoy the game a little more and that's why we all should be playing in the first place. Why should I feel any better knowing that someone who is ready to quit out of frustration is having a miserable time in the game? If I'm really that selfish, then I should accept that their monthly subscription helps pay for the development of the game and in turn will help me.
I have often wondered if the people that post the things about the death penalty needing to be as severe as possible would insist on a ticket instead of a warning if pulled over for speeding. "No Officer, give me the ticket I deserve, otherwise when I leave here I will speed off at 100 mph because I won't understand why you pulled me over".
I also wanted to add that death is the consequence many times of a failed challenge. For those who succeed in the challenge (encounter) without a death, there is less of a repair cost and more time to meet the next challenge. For those who fail often in means having to start over on that challenge or walk away. Those who play MMoG's for the most part play it for the challenge and those who play well enjoy taking on more content with a great deal of pride in knowing they often beat the challenge with few deaths. Those who don't fair quite as well really don't need to be constantly reminded of their lack of tactics/ability through endless meaningless grinds.
Nod.
People that want a more hardcore game have ready made groups and are in guilds and play only with friends.
They don't undergo the hardcore aspect of the game.
They don't wipe a lot, and xp at a rate 4 times as fast as any other person.
The persons playing the hardcore game, are the ones soloing and starting the game without a guild, and wiping and trying to grind their way to some lvl's on their own.
Those are the ones that play the hardcore game, not the person backed up by 60 other toons in their guild who have 10 clerics ready to rezz their butt.
Thats an interesting point Dre-amer, the more hardcore something beomes, the less it is, in actuality. The people attracted to it find it easier as they themselves attract hard core players. Therebye nulyfying the difficulty.
what I don't get about the changes, if they say themselves that testing is ongoing and things can change again - isn't that what a test-server is for? unless of course, noone really plays there (yet)....
Good point, and I have no idea why they included the little blip about it being "testing" in the announcement since you would think it would be obvious that its on the Test server to be tested. The only reason I can think of would be to keep people from panicking and whining about it on the forums, soften the blow a bit if you will.
And Elrar keeps posting that it's only being "tested". Well no crap it's being tested, it's on the test server
More dummying down and alienating the original hardcore target audience.
I warned them these so called "hardcore" were very small in number, how many people without jobs are there playing MMORPG's?
I can't wait till this game is cancelled, exactly as I warned them it would be. The huge numbers of casuals in relation to the puny numbers that play games to much will let everyone know who to make games for. All the casuals know Brad screws them by giving raiders 100 times better gear and we aren't buying his B.S. ever again! The anti-raider has assended! Down with the puny raider population!
WoW>EQ thats why there are 8 million+ playing WoW while EQ wastes away.
Wow. Casuals fo lyfe! rofl
It's called learning to play, try it. I have a job, work third shift even, yet I can still raid in MMO's. Also, how is Vanguard a raiding MMO when they don't even have end-game content in, tell me that?
Or are you just another no-skill WoW idiot? Numbers don't mean everything, after all, the majority of the US voted for George Bush. Again. Mariah Carey sells albums. Why does WoW have so many subs? Because there are a lot of morons in the world. Oh noes, somebody called you out, throw up your WoW defense bubble and hearth out!
The beauty of WoW and why it is so successful is that it is for both the casual and the hardcore. It has excellent, hard core, end game content for those that like to raid. Alternatively, it is easy to pick up and level up.
The people who bash WoW as being a "kiddie" game or only for gimps lets me know that they have not really played WoW or have not be a part of a high end raiding Guild.
The various game mechanics such as a harsh death penalty, slow XP, long travel timesinks do not make a game hardcore nor does it make a game challenging. It only makes the game annoying as hell.
WoW isn't fun to me. That's what it boils down to. Nothing in the game is difficult, nothing is rewarding. Without difficulty, regardless of what gear you get, it isn't going to feel worth it. I don't bash it for being a kiddie game, I bash it for being an easy cash in on a demographic. I also find it hilarious when people say WoW is better than other MMO's because all WoW is is just a mish-mash of older MMO's watered down to fit the casuals that don't want to actually experience a game. Instead they'd rather sit back nuking their day away without a care in the world. I'd like a game with my PvP.
You prove my point. Saying that WoW is "watered down to fit casuals" shows your depth of knowledge for WoW. One of the premier Ex-EQ1 raiding guilds is a WoW Guild (http://wow.fohguild.org/applications/FoHApplication.php).
My guess is that you looked at the WoW graphics and played to ..oh..say.. level 20 or so and quit. Plus your statement "sit back nuking their day away" displays a high level of ignorance about the game. Given that statement you may not have even played it.
Nearly all my friends play it. I have played their characters and my own to see if maybe end-game would make it worth it. It wasn't. I played warcraft for years, so you can stop your little childish assumptions on how I view the graphics. If you'll recall, I said nothing of the graphics. Insecure much?
Any game where a paladin can outheal a priest, and a mage can sit back all day and not really have to worry about overnuking is not a difficult game. The only ignorance here is on your part for believe WoW is difficult, have you ever played an actually difficult MMO before?
Comments
Brilliant post, I have been trying to say this for a long time.
It is not like time has been standing still for us old timers, I wonder why Sigil thinks it has.
Perhaps because EQ destroyed quite a few college educations and whatnot and they simply think we would still be living in our moms basement and be unemployed?
None the less, what Tnice said is probably the most important issue that Sigil seems to have completely overlooked.
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Originally posted by Jerek_
I wonder if you honestly even believe what you type, or if you live in a made up world of facts.
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www.vanguardspheres.com/forums/test-server/9287-death-mechanic-changes-feedback-thread.html#post33713
Thoughts?
I had my bets on at least 6 months before they did something like this. So much for Vanguard being "hardcore". what I don't get about the changes, if they say themselves that testing is ongoing and things can change again - isn't that what a test-server is for? unless of course, noone really plays there (yet)....
I warned them these so called "hardcore" were very small in number, how many people without jobs are there playing MMORPG's?
I can't wait till this game is cancelled, exactly as I warned them it would be. The huge numbers of casuals in relation to the puny numbers that play games to much will let everyone know who to make games for. All the casuals know Brad screws them by giving raiders 100 times better gear and we aren't buying his B.S. ever again! The anti-raider has assended! Down with the puny raider population!
If you have any questions please ask. I have moved on to WoW from eq and no longer have any desire to play a dead game. Thank you. (posted by another selling his account in EQ1)
I warned them these so called "hardcore" were very small in number, how many people without jobs are there playing MMORPG's?
I can't wait till this game is cancelled, exactly as I warned them it would be. The huge numbers of casuals in relation to the puny numbers that play games to much will let everyone know who to make games for. All the casuals know Brad screws them by giving raiders 100 times better gear and we aren't buying his B.S. ever again! The anti-raider has assended! Down with the puny raider population!
Vanboys don't realize it, they think that Vanguard only consists of hardcore players.
People don't have time and don't want to play all day. EQ was different because it was the only 3D MMORPG you could play.
Sigil are such dumbasses.
How many players in EQ-1 had "Pocket Clerics" that they would keep around in case of a complete wipe in a Raid or Group? Quite a few. This "hardcore" death mantra really is nothing more than "I have a reviver available, you don't , so suffer".
If your one of those few that really feel that the whole hardcore value of the game is determined on how badly you can be punished for mistakes then I don't think you truly grasp the concept of what a challenge really is. To me a challenge is working on the methods to accomplish something just barely within your grasp, not simply avoiding death because of the loss of experience.
Edit: I rate this argument up there with the ones in EQ-1/EQ-2 where the Druids and Wizards complain that travel is too easy in the game, people should have to hoof it everywhere....or use ports (for donations of course). Because you have a means of circumventing the mechanics of what you call hardcore (death and travel) with a reviver or portal, you feel the mechanics should not provide the same opportunity for those without that ability.
FUNCOM - putting the FUN in disFUNctional !
As well as this discussion seems logical..I have to disagree with it..
Tell me something..even thou i agree that things get "harder" if you just play a MMO without a healer or run around naked..Why would anyone do that aslong as they have access to a healer or armor..Isnt this what MMO's is all about "ACCESS" to things ?
Because one of the main aspects of a MMORPG is to get into a guild and get to know lots of new friends etc..And based from the foundation of the guild get stronger toghether and get things EASIER done in the gameworld..
As a loner you are bound to get a tougher time in any game..not just Vanguard ..yes even WoW....
Again..There is a thin line in this..and the developers needs to balance the risk versus reward well...
A game that is "to hard" for some will alienate those people and a game that is to easy will alienate people that wants a big challange..
But then again..Is a harch death penalty really something that makes the game harder ?
/thark
I warned them these so called "hardcore" were very small in number, how many people without jobs are there playing MMORPG's?
I can't wait till this game is cancelled, exactly as I warned them it would be. The huge numbers of casuals in relation to the puny numbers that play games to much will let everyone know who to make games for. All the casuals know Brad screws them by giving raiders 100 times better gear and we aren't buying his B.S. ever again! The anti-raider has assended! Down with the puny raider population!
WoW>EQ thats why there are 8 million+ playing WoW while EQ wastes away.
Wow. Casuals fo lyfe! rofl
It's called learning to play, try it. I have a job, work third shift even, yet I can still raid in MMO's. Also, how is Vanguard a raiding MMO when they don't even have end-game content in, tell me that?
Or are you just another no-skill WoW idiot? Numbers don't mean everything, after all, the majority of the US voted for George Bush. Again. Mariah Carey sells albums. Why does WoW have so many subs? Because there are a lot of morons in the world. Oh noes, somebody called you out, throw up your WoW defense bubble and hearth out!
I warned them these so called "hardcore" were very small in number, how many people without jobs are there playing MMORPG's?
I can't wait till this game is cancelled, exactly as I warned them it would be. The huge numbers of casuals in relation to the puny numbers that play games to much will let everyone know who to make games for. All the casuals know Brad screws them by giving raiders 100 times better gear and we aren't buying his B.S. ever again! The anti-raider has assended! Down with the puny raider population!
WoW>EQ thats why there are 8 million+ playing WoW while EQ wastes away.
Wow. Casuals fo lyfe! rofl
It's called learning to play, try it. I have a job, work third shift even, yet I can still raid in MMO's. Also, how is Vanguard a raiding MMO when they don't even have end-game content in, tell me that?
Or are you just another no-skill WoW idiot? Numbers don't mean everything, after all, the majority of the US voted for George Bush. Again. Mariah Carey sells albums. Why does WoW have so many subs? Because there are a lot of morons in the world. Oh noes, somebody called you out, throw up your WoW defense bubble and hearth out!
The beauty of WoW and why it is so successful is that it is for both the casual and the hardcore. It has excellent, hard core, end game content for those that like to raid. Alternatively, it is easy to pick up and level up.
The people who bash WoW as being a "kiddie" game or only for gimps lets me know that they have not really played WoW or have not be a part of a high end raiding Guild.
The various game mechanics such as a harsh death penalty, slow XP, long travel timesinks do not make a game hardcore nor does it make a game challenging. It only makes the game annoying as hell.
I warned them these so called "hardcore" were very small in number, how many people without jobs are there playing MMORPG's?
I can't wait till this game is cancelled, exactly as I warned them it would be. The huge numbers of casuals in relation to the puny numbers that play games to much will let everyone know who to make games for. All the casuals know Brad screws them by giving raiders 100 times better gear and we aren't buying his B.S. ever again! The anti-raider has assended! Down with the puny raider population!
WoW>EQ thats why there are 8 million+ playing WoW while EQ wastes away.
Wow. Casuals fo lyfe! rofl
It's called learning to play, try it. I have a job, work third shift even, yet I can still raid in MMO's. Also, how is Vanguard a raiding MMO when they don't even have end-game content in, tell me that?
Or are you just another no-skill WoW idiot? Numbers don't mean everything, after all, the majority of the US voted for George Bush. Again. Mariah Carey sells albums. Why does WoW have so many subs? Because there are a lot of morons in the world. Oh noes, somebody called you out, throw up your WoW defense bubble and hearth out!
The beauty of WoW and why it is so successful is that it is for both the casual and the hardcore. It has excellent, hard core, end game content for those that like to raid. Alternatively, it is easy to pick up and level up.
The people who bash WoW as being a "kiddie" game or only for gimps lets me know that they have not really played WoW or have not be a part of a high end raiding Guild.
The various game mechanics such as a harsh death penalty, slow XP, long travel timesinks do not make a game hardcore nor does it make a game challenging. It only makes the game annoying as hell.
WoW isn't fun to me. That's what it boils down to. Nothing in the game is difficult, nothing is rewarding. Without difficulty, regardless of what gear you get, it isn't going to feel worth it. I don't bash it for being a kiddie game, I bash it for being an easy cash in on a demographic. I also find it hilarious when people say WoW is better than other MMO's because all WoW is is just a mish-mash of older MMO's watered down to fit the casuals that don't want to actually experience a game. Instead they'd rather sit back nuking their day away without a care in the world. I'd like a game with my PvP.
OMG.....isn't that what EQ2 was at launch? leaving a Soulshard for you to go back and pick up and not do anymore corpse runs??
And I hear that EQ2 isn't doing the Soul Shard anymore either!!!! it's more like WOW now!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
I knew Vanguard was going to go downhill fast...but wow...sounds like they're really struggling to keep it together now.
oh well.
I warned them these so called "hardcore" were very small in number, how many people without jobs are there playing MMORPG's?
I can't wait till this game is cancelled, exactly as I warned them it would be. The huge numbers of casuals in relation to the puny numbers that play games to much will let everyone know who to make games for. All the casuals know Brad screws them by giving raiders 100 times better gear and we aren't buying his B.S. ever again! The anti-raider has assended! Down with the puny raider population!
WoW>EQ thats why there are 8 million+ playing WoW while EQ wastes away.
Wow. Casuals fo lyfe! rofl
It's called learning to play, try it. I have a job, work third shift even, yet I can still raid in MMO's. Also, how is Vanguard a raiding MMO when they don't even have end-game content in, tell me that?
Or are you just another no-skill WoW idiot? Numbers don't mean everything, after all, the majority of the US voted for George Bush. Again. Mariah Carey sells albums. Why does WoW have so many subs? Because there are a lot of morons in the world. Oh noes, somebody called you out, throw up your WoW defense bubble and hearth out!Are you another no-lifer? You work third shift and still raid, How? ALL raids are in the P.M. I doupt you work thats what these lifeless raiders are, JOBLESS!
If you have any questions please ask. I have moved on to WoW from eq and no longer have any desire to play a dead game. Thank you. (posted by another selling his account in EQ1)
If you have any questions please ask. I have moved on to WoW from eq and no longer have any desire to play a dead game. Thank you. (posted by another selling his account in EQ1)
If you take out all the time needed to travel, recover from exp loss , ect,. Vanguard will have less content than many mmos, this game needs people to spend hours to get someplace or hours to do somthing just to spread out the content.
I just find it funny that as more content is added or "fixed" some of those timesinks are lessened.
would not suprize me a bit as more caves, dungeons, cities, ect are added in, then suddenly your mounts are given more speed or new faster mounts will be introduced to lower the time sink to get to em.
Vanguards world was to massive to begin with, sigil bit off more than they could chew. Having eq2 as an example of how many expantions can make the game to big for3 to 5 k people making it look barren (more on eq2 due to the sheer amount of zones. As the months go by its going to be apparent how barren Vanguard is going to be as most of its playerbase starts to lvl up, new people will find the massive amounts of starting zones barren .
They could have gotten away with making vanguard with 1 continent and polish it then add the other 2 as expantions as they finish the content on those. prob would have netted more money and more players.
its a pity to see a game unfinished as vanguard, comeon no helm grafics while there are free to play games that have em.
Well lets hope they can polish it on time and start drawing the crowd where the money is at. its a pity to see 30 million go to waste like this
Watching Fanbois drop their soap in a prison full of desperate men.
I warned them these so called "hardcore" were very small in number, how many people without jobs are there playing MMORPG's?
I can't wait till this game is cancelled, exactly as I warned them it would be. The huge numbers of casuals in relation to the puny numbers that play games to much will let everyone know who to make games for. All the casuals know Brad screws them by giving raiders 100 times better gear and we aren't buying his B.S. ever again! The anti-raider has assended! Down with the puny raider population!
WoW>EQ thats why there are 8 million+ playing WoW while EQ wastes away.
Wow. Casuals fo lyfe! rofl
It's called learning to play, try it. I have a job, work third shift even, yet I can still raid in MMO's. Also, how is Vanguard a raiding MMO when they don't even have end-game content in, tell me that?
Or are you just another no-skill WoW idiot? Numbers don't mean everything, after all, the majority of the US voted for George Bush. Again. Mariah Carey sells albums. Why does WoW have so many subs? Because there are a lot of morons in the world. Oh noes, somebody called you out, throw up your WoW defense bubble and hearth out!
The beauty of WoW and why it is so successful is that it is for both the casual and the hardcore. It has excellent, hard core, end game content for those that like to raid. Alternatively, it is easy to pick up and level up.
The people who bash WoW as being a "kiddie" game or only for gimps lets me know that they have not really played WoW or have not be a part of a high end raiding Guild.
The various game mechanics such as a harsh death penalty, slow XP, long travel timesinks do not make a game hardcore nor does it make a game challenging. It only makes the game annoying as hell.
WoW isn't fun to me. That's what it boils down to. Nothing in the game is difficult, nothing is rewarding. Without difficulty, regardless of what gear you get, it isn't going to feel worth it. I don't bash it for being a kiddie game, I bash it for being an easy cash in on a demographic. I also find it hilarious when people say WoW is better than other MMO's because all WoW is is just a mish-mash of older MMO's watered down to fit the casuals that don't want to actually experience a game. Instead they'd rather sit back nuking their day away without a care in the world. I'd like a game with my PvP.
You prove my point. Saying that WoW is "watered down to fit casuals" shows your depth of knowledge for WoW. One of the premier Ex-EQ1 raiding guilds is a WoW Guild (http://wow.fohguild.org/applications/FoHApplication.php).
My guess is that you looked at the WoW graphics and played to ..oh..say.. level 20 or so and quit. Plus your statement "sit back nuking their day away" displays a high level of ignorance about the game. Given that statement you may not have even played it.
A couple of years of hype about the "vision" and this is what we get.
Brad's "Vision" + running out of money + SOE = players paying to alpha test an unoriginal, visionless piece of crap while money goes into the pockets of Vision-boy and his good buddy Smed.
Im going to sell you a dream.
Nod.
People that want a more hardcore game have ready made groups and are in guilds and play only with friends.
They don't undergo the hardcore aspect of the game.
They don't wipe a lot, and xp at a rate 4 times as fast as any other person.
The persons playing the hardcore game, are the ones soloing and starting the game without a guild, and wiping and trying to grind their way to some lvl's on their own.
Those are the ones that play the hardcore game, not the person backed up by 60 other toons in their guild who have 10 clerics ready to rezz their butt.
Thats an interesting point Dre-amer, the more hardcore something beomes, the less it is, in actuality. The people attracted to it find it easier as they themselves attract hard core players. Therebye nulyfying the difficulty.
And Elrar keeps posting that it's only being "tested". Well no crap it's being tested, it's on the test server
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Life sucks, buy a helmet.
I warned them these so called "hardcore" were very small in number, how many people without jobs are there playing MMORPG's?
I can't wait till this game is cancelled, exactly as I warned them it would be. The huge numbers of casuals in relation to the puny numbers that play games to much will let everyone know who to make games for. All the casuals know Brad screws them by giving raiders 100 times better gear and we aren't buying his B.S. ever again! The anti-raider has assended! Down with the puny raider population!
WoW>EQ thats why there are 8 million+ playing WoW while EQ wastes away.
Wow. Casuals fo lyfe! rofl
It's called learning to play, try it. I have a job, work third shift even, yet I can still raid in MMO's. Also, how is Vanguard a raiding MMO when they don't even have end-game content in, tell me that?
Or are you just another no-skill WoW idiot? Numbers don't mean everything, after all, the majority of the US voted for George Bush. Again. Mariah Carey sells albums. Why does WoW have so many subs? Because there are a lot of morons in the world. Oh noes, somebody called you out, throw up your WoW defense bubble and hearth out!
The beauty of WoW and why it is so successful is that it is for both the casual and the hardcore. It has excellent, hard core, end game content for those that like to raid. Alternatively, it is easy to pick up and level up.
The people who bash WoW as being a "kiddie" game or only for gimps lets me know that they have not really played WoW or have not be a part of a high end raiding Guild.
The various game mechanics such as a harsh death penalty, slow XP, long travel timesinks do not make a game hardcore nor does it make a game challenging. It only makes the game annoying as hell.
WoW isn't fun to me. That's what it boils down to. Nothing in the game is difficult, nothing is rewarding. Without difficulty, regardless of what gear you get, it isn't going to feel worth it. I don't bash it for being a kiddie game, I bash it for being an easy cash in on a demographic. I also find it hilarious when people say WoW is better than other MMO's because all WoW is is just a mish-mash of older MMO's watered down to fit the casuals that don't want to actually experience a game. Instead they'd rather sit back nuking their day away without a care in the world. I'd like a game with my PvP.
You prove my point. Saying that WoW is "watered down to fit casuals" shows your depth of knowledge for WoW. One of the premier Ex-EQ1 raiding guilds is a WoW Guild (http://wow.fohguild.org/applications/FoHApplication.php).
My guess is that you looked at the WoW graphics and played to ..oh..say.. level 20 or so and quit. Plus your statement "sit back nuking their day away" displays a high level of ignorance about the game. Given that statement you may not have even played it.
Nearly all my friends play it. I have played their characters and my own to see if maybe end-game would make it worth it. It wasn't. I played warcraft for years, so you can stop your little childish assumptions on how I view the graphics. If you'll recall, I said nothing of the graphics. Insecure much?
Any game where a paladin can outheal a priest, and a mage can sit back all day and not really have to worry about overnuking is not a difficult game. The only ignorance here is on your part for believe WoW is difficult, have you ever played an actually difficult MMO before?