Originally posted by Zappy making battles more often even and more fun.
Why does everything have to be totally even, fair, and balanced?
Whatever happened to overcoming a force of greater numbers with wit, and skill? Why do all classes have to be equally good at everything?
The more balanced, the more homogenized, the less fun things become, because it's just bland. There's something to be said for not having every aspect of the game in perfect harmony.
Because this is a PvPRvR game. Because competative play is where longlasting fun is (look at ANY sport). Everything wont be equal all the time, I didnt say that, but it makes it more equal. And imbalance goes both ways. Where is the fun if you just steamroll everyone. No challenge. What if you get steamrolled 10 times in a row? Fun? Sure I CAN also have fun washing the dishes, but Its certainly not the way I'd plan my weekends.
And if they deliberately make the classes imbalanced, the poor classes will not be played because all they do is being useless and unfun. So why not just make them equal in terms of power and utility.
I truly dont see why you cant "overcome a force of greater numbers with wit, and skill" with a system like that. People will still zerg and add and gank as much as they can. And while is aiming to be balanced, it looks to be much less homogenized then most other games with its 24 unique classes at launch.
I must say that I didnt think anyone didnt want a balanced game though. Everything has a first I guess. /shrug
Take the Defensive tank in Vanguard as an example. The Warrior, Paladin, and Dread Knight. Each of them can act as a main tank. Warrior holds has a slightly easier time holding aggro, little to no utility, somewhat better absorbtion/mitigation, and better HP, mediocre dps., Paladin has the most utility with heals, and whatnot, slightly better absorbtion than warrior, with less hps, and dps than the warrior, and the Dread Knight has mediocre utility, but better mitigation and dps than the other two more hp than pally, less than Warrior. It's all good, each achieves the same end result, albeit by different means.
Now bring on the players. Here's where everything goes wonky. The Warrior has the easiest time holding aggro, because that's really all they can do. Paladins/Dread Knights can hold aggro every bit as well as a Warrior, but they have to work at it. It's not just 5 sunders and go, so to speak. Now, you get players of every stripe. Some, like myself, had no issues holding aggro as a Paladin. Some players, perhaps used to EQ, WoW, or whatever, had a harder time of it, and went on a posting spree about how useless Paladins were, and they couldn't even solo a single mob two levels below them, and so on. More or less the same with Dread Knights, I'm sure. Now, as a Paladin, I know damn well the class holds aggro just fine, I could solo even con mobs withouth much, if any issue. With the exception of a touch of fine tuning of endurance costs for abilities, etc, the three DT's where balanced between each other. Now in PvP, things were different, 1v1. That was more of a flaw with how healing and dps classes worked with the wierd ass mob dot system than anything. But I'm ok with that. Straight melee should lose to a ranged dpser that can keep them at range.
But the devs can't say, "It's ok, learn2play". Players can, but they get shouted down, called liars, and so on. Pretty soon, devs cave, and the three different, and unique classes become 1 class with three different names.
Obviously, if a given class is doing 10x the damage it should be, then yes, that needs to be fixed. But when the gaggle of tantrum throwing forum 5 year olds shows up crying that bobby and suzie got pink candy, and they only got purple, and demand pink candy too, the devs need to man up, and tell them to stfu, and stfd. Yes, maybe a few might quit over it, but really, how many times have you seen someone post that if the devs don't fix 'X', they and everyone they know will quit, only to still be there bitching about 'X' and/or 'Y' next month, and so on. Not to mention, the devs would certainly earn my respect, and consequently, my $14.99/mo, and I doubt I'm alone in that.
As for even sides? I prefer to play the underdog, personally. Yeah, you may lose more often than not, and to a zerg of players that are less skilled over all, but it just makes those small moments where strategy, skill and planning pay off, so much sweeter. It's the same reason I don't follow the cookie cutter build, or play the FotM overpowered character. Any plebe with 2 working brain cells can be successful in DAoC, or WoW playing a stealth class. Not to the extent of someone that uses cunning, and so on, but still, they will be successful. I'd rather play the class everyone says is gimp, yada, yada. It makes putting your face in the dirt that much more fun for me.
Like the Necro that was talking smack about Paladins in VG. Mouthing off about how he could pwn my noob ass, and so on. 1 level higher than me, and couldn't get me below 90% before he ate his words.
So, yeah, I do like having the short end of the stick in some regards. I think it makes you a stronger, more creative player. Sure, you're gonna get rolled a lot at first, and the path to the end will be longer, harder, and often frustrating, but I think it's worth it to be able to say that I chose the harder path, and still came out on top. That's just me, though.
I'd prefer an 8 person group. The squads in BF2142 are all 6 man max, and it's frustrating sometimes. Although there are four classes per race, people can transfer between realms so that means you actually have 12 races per side and might have to build a balanced group out of that.
Originally posted by Zappy Originally posted by ColdmeatOriginally posted by Zappy making battles more often even and more fun.
Why does everything have to be totally even, fair, and balanced?
Whatever happened to overcoming a force of greater numbers with wit, and skill? Why do all classes have to be equally good at everything?
The more balanced, the more homogenized, the less fun things become, because it's just bland. There's something to be said for not having every aspect of the game in perfect harmony.
Because this is a PvPRvR game. Because competative play is where longlasting fun is (look at ANY sport). Everything wont be equal all the time, I didnt say that, but it makes it more equal. And imbalance goes both ways. Where is the fun if you just steamroll everyone. No challenge. What if you get steamrolled 10 times in a row? Fun? Sure I CAN also have fun washing the dishes, but Its certainly not the way I'd plan my weekends.
And if they deliberately make the classes imbalanced, the poor classes will not be played because all they do is being useless and unfun. So why not just make them equal in terms of power and utility.
I truly dont see why you cant "overcome a force of greater numbers with wit, and skill" with a system like that. People will still zerg and add and gank as much as they can. And while is aiming to be balanced, it looks to be much less homogenized then most other games with its 24 unique classes at launch.
I must say that I didnt think anyone didnt want a balanced game though. Everything has a first I guess. /shrug
Take the Defensive tank in Vanguard as an example. The Warrior, Paladin, and Dread Knight. Each of them can act as a main tank. Warrior holds has a slightly easier time holding aggro, little to no utility, somewhat better absorbtion/mitigation, and better HP, mediocre dps., Paladin has the most utility with heals, and whatnot, slightly better absorbtion than warrior, with less hps, and dps than the warrior, and the Dread Knight has mediocre utility, but better mitigation and dps than the other two more hp than pally, less than Warrior. It's all good, each achieves the same end result, albeit by different means.
Now bring on the players. Here's where everything goes wonky. The Warrior has the easiest time holding aggro, because that's really all they can do. Paladins/Dread Knights can hold aggro every bit as well as a Warrior, but they have to work at it. It's not just 5 sunders and go, so to speak. Now, you get players of every stripe. Some, like myself, had no issues holding aggro as a Paladin. Some players, perhaps used to EQ, WoW, or whatever, had a harder time of it, and went on a posting spree about how useless Paladins were, and they couldn't even solo a single mob two levels below them, and so on. More or less the same with Dread Knights, I'm sure. Now, as a Paladin, I know damn well the class holds aggro just fine, I could solo even con mobs withouth much, if any issue. With the exception of a touch of fine tuning of endurance costs for abilities, etc, the three DT's where balanced between each other. Now in PvP, things were different, 1v1. That was more of a flaw with how healing and dps classes worked with the wierd ass mob dot system than anything. But I'm ok with that. Straight melee should lose to a ranged dpser that can keep them at range.
But the devs can't say, "It's ok, learn2play". Players can, but they get shouted down, called liars, and so on. Pretty soon, devs cave, and the three different, and unique classes become 1 class with three different names.
Obviously, if a given class is doing 10x the damage it should be, then yes, that needs to be fixed. But when the gaggle of tantrum throwing forum 5 year olds shows up crying that bobby and suzie got pink candy, and they only got purple, and demand pink candy too, the devs need to man up, and tell them to stfu, and stfd. Yes, maybe a few might quit over it, but really, how many times have you seen someone post that if the devs don't fix 'X', they and everyone they know will quit, only to still be there bitching about 'X' and/or 'Y' next month, and so on. Not to mention, the devs would certainly earn my respect, and consequently, my $14.99/mo, and I doubt I'm alone in that.
As for even sides? I prefer to play the underdog, personally. Yeah, you may lose more often than not, and to a zerg of players that are less skilled over all, but it just makes those small moments where strategy, skill and planning pay off, so much sweeter. It's the same reason I don't follow the cookie cutter build, or play the FotM overpowered character. Any plebe with 2 working brain cells can be successful in DAoC, or WoW playing a stealth class. Not to the extent of someone that uses cunning, and so on, but still, they will be successful. I'd rather play the class everyone says is gimp, yada, yada. It makes putting your face in the dirt that much more fun for me.
Like the Necro that was talking smack about Paladins in VG. Mouthing off about how he could pwn my noob ass, and so on. 1 level higher than me, and couldn't get me below 90% before he ate his words.
So, yeah, I do like having the short end of the stick in some regards. I think it makes you a stronger, more creative player. Sure, you're gonna get rolled a lot at first, and the path to the end will be longer, harder, and often frustrating, but I think it's worth it to be able to say that I chose the harder path, and still came out on top. That's just me, though.
It seems we agree alot after all. I prefeer to play as the underdogs as well. Though I dont like the part where Im steamrolled. Though being on the overpopulated side is even crappier. I dont see what this has to do with groups though. Equal, tough, balanced fights is the best there is anyway. Period.
I also like the classes and combat system in Vanguard and no doubt do they have different ways of achieving the same goals. That does not need that it has to be unbalanced at all. And idiots whine about unbalance everywhere, all the time, about everything, even if there is reason for it or not.
I havent played Vanguard much, but from what I found out when chosing a class was that the cleric was an easy class to be an effective healer with, while the Deciple was much more challenging, but could be equally good if played well. So, ofcourse I chose the Deciple.
Then again, who said Warhammer wouldnt go about it the same way? From what I've seen the classes are buildt to do the same objective (after all, thats the reason for having different classes eh?).
And as for fotm classes and such, Im all for alternative setups. If they work. If not, there are always skilled, high ranked people running optimized groups that wipes the floor with you. Being average aint that great tbh.
Please mythic, buck the trend of large groups and go with the 4 man "unit" model. You can still link units together for things (8,12,16) but keep the numbers as small as possible to ensure everyone has a fun time in pvp. There are 4 classes per race, so it makes sense that a unit be composed of this number. With the 4 number a second group is easily formed, with 6 there will be problems and of course your aware of the ptoblems with 8, mainly ultra wipeouts due to overdps and /assist. and for the love of all things chaotic.. eliminate /assist. It has no place in pvp. Its too easy to abuse and dumbs down the gameplay.
Being as how the devs of Mythic (and WarOnline) ARE dumb, they cant help but bring their gameplay down to their level. The only thing this game has going for it is the authentic feel of the terrain and graphics.
They missed the boat for a godlike game a long time ago, when they made this game for kids. Massive wholesale slaughter with gore and nudity isnt for kids. Another bout of censorship for dollars by the same people who brought us DAO-imbalanced-C.
...Still, those greenskins look awesome, dont they?
Comments
Take the Defensive tank in Vanguard as an example. The Warrior, Paladin, and Dread Knight. Each of them can act as a main tank. Warrior holds has a slightly easier time holding aggro, little to no utility, somewhat better absorbtion/mitigation, and better HP, mediocre dps., Paladin has the most utility with heals, and whatnot, slightly better absorbtion than warrior, with less hps, and dps than the warrior, and the Dread Knight has mediocre utility, but better mitigation and dps than the other two more hp than pally, less than Warrior. It's all good, each achieves the same end result, albeit by different means.
Now bring on the players. Here's where everything goes wonky. The Warrior has the easiest time holding aggro, because that's really all they can do. Paladins/Dread Knights can hold aggro every bit as well as a Warrior, but they have to work at it. It's not just 5 sunders and go, so to speak. Now, you get players of every stripe. Some, like myself, had no issues holding aggro as a Paladin. Some players, perhaps used to EQ, WoW, or whatever, had a harder time of it, and went on a posting spree about how useless Paladins were, and they couldn't even solo a single mob two levels below them, and so on. More or less the same with Dread Knights, I'm sure. Now, as a Paladin, I know damn well the class holds aggro just fine, I could solo even con mobs withouth much, if any issue. With the exception of a touch of fine tuning of endurance costs for abilities, etc, the three DT's where balanced between each other. Now in PvP, things were different, 1v1. That was more of a flaw with how healing and dps classes worked with the wierd ass mob dot system than anything. But I'm ok with that. Straight melee should lose to a ranged dpser that can keep them at range.
But the devs can't say, "It's ok, learn2play". Players can, but they get shouted down, called liars, and so on. Pretty soon, devs cave, and the three different, and unique classes become 1 class with three different names.
Obviously, if a given class is doing 10x the damage it should be, then yes, that needs to be fixed. But when the gaggle of tantrum throwing forum 5 year olds shows up crying that bobby and suzie got pink candy, and they only got purple, and demand pink candy too, the devs need to man up, and tell them to stfu, and stfd. Yes, maybe a few might quit over it, but really, how many times have you seen someone post that if the devs don't fix 'X', they and everyone they know will quit, only to still be there bitching about 'X' and/or 'Y' next month, and so on. Not to mention, the devs would certainly earn my respect, and consequently, my $14.99/mo, and I doubt I'm alone in that.
As for even sides? I prefer to play the underdog, personally. Yeah, you may lose more often than not, and to a zerg of players that are less skilled over all, but it just makes those small moments where strategy, skill and planning pay off, so much sweeter. It's the same reason I don't follow the cookie cutter build, or play the FotM overpowered character. Any plebe with 2 working brain cells can be successful in DAoC, or WoW playing a stealth class. Not to the extent of someone that uses cunning, and so on, but still, they will be successful. I'd rather play the class everyone says is gimp, yada, yada. It makes putting your face in the dirt that much more fun for me.
Like the Necro that was talking smack about Paladins in VG. Mouthing off about how he could pwn my noob ass, and so on. 1 level higher than me, and couldn't get me below 90% before he ate his words.
So, yeah, I do like having the short end of the stick in some regards. I think it makes you a stronger, more creative player. Sure, you're gonna get rolled a lot at first, and the path to the end will be longer, harder, and often frustrating, but I think it's worth it to be able to say that I chose the harder path, and still came out on top. That's just me, though.
Why does everything have to be totally even, fair, and balanced?
Whatever happened to overcoming a force of greater numbers with wit, and skill?
Why do all classes have to be equally good at everything?
The more balanced, the more homogenized, the less fun things become, because it's just bland. There's something to be said for not having every aspect of the game in perfect harmony.
Because this is a PvPRvR game. Because competative play is where longlasting fun is (look at ANY sport). Everything wont be equal all the time, I didnt say that, but it makes it more equal. And imbalance goes both ways. Where is the fun if you just steamroll everyone. No challenge. What if you get steamrolled 10 times in a row? Fun? Sure I CAN also have fun washing the dishes, but Its certainly not the way I'd plan my weekends.
And if they deliberately make the classes imbalanced, the poor classes will not be played because all they do is being useless and unfun. So why not just make them equal in terms of power and utility.
I truly dont see why you cant "overcome a force of greater numbers with wit, and skill" with a system like that. People will still zerg and add and gank as much as they can.
And while is aiming to be balanced, it looks to be much less homogenized then most other games with its 24 unique classes at launch.
I must say that I didnt think anyone didnt want a balanced game though. Everything has a first I guess. /shrug
Take the Defensive tank in Vanguard as an example. The Warrior, Paladin, and Dread Knight. Each of them can act as a main tank. Warrior holds has a slightly easier time holding aggro, little to no utility, somewhat better absorbtion/mitigation, and better HP, mediocre dps., Paladin has the most utility with heals, and whatnot, slightly better absorbtion than warrior, with less hps, and dps than the warrior, and the Dread Knight has mediocre utility, but better mitigation and dps than the other two more hp than pally, less than Warrior. It's all good, each achieves the same end result, albeit by different means.
Now bring on the players. Here's where everything goes wonky. The Warrior has the easiest time holding aggro, because that's really all they can do. Paladins/Dread Knights can hold aggro every bit as well as a Warrior, but they have to work at it. It's not just 5 sunders and go, so to speak. Now, you get players of every stripe. Some, like myself, had no issues holding aggro as a Paladin. Some players, perhaps used to EQ, WoW, or whatever, had a harder time of it, and went on a posting spree about how useless Paladins were, and they couldn't even solo a single mob two levels below them, and so on. More or less the same with Dread Knights, I'm sure. Now, as a Paladin, I know damn well the class holds aggro just fine, I could solo even con mobs withouth much, if any issue. With the exception of a touch of fine tuning of endurance costs for abilities, etc, the three DT's where balanced between each other. Now in PvP, things were different, 1v1. That was more of a flaw with how healing and dps classes worked with the wierd ass mob dot system than anything. But I'm ok with that. Straight melee should lose to a ranged dpser that can keep them at range.
But the devs can't say, "It's ok, learn2play". Players can, but they get shouted down, called liars, and so on. Pretty soon, devs cave, and the three different, and unique classes become 1 class with three different names.
Obviously, if a given class is doing 10x the damage it should be, then yes, that needs to be fixed. But when the gaggle of tantrum throwing forum 5 year olds shows up crying that bobby and suzie got pink candy, and they only got purple, and demand pink candy too, the devs need to man up, and tell them to stfu, and stfd. Yes, maybe a few might quit over it, but really, how many times have you seen someone post that if the devs don't fix 'X', they and everyone they know will quit, only to still be there bitching about 'X' and/or 'Y' next month, and so on. Not to mention, the devs would certainly earn my respect, and consequently, my $14.99/mo, and I doubt I'm alone in that.
As for even sides? I prefer to play the underdog, personally. Yeah, you may lose more often than not, and to a zerg of players that are less skilled over all, but it just makes those small moments where strategy, skill and planning pay off, so much sweeter. It's the same reason I don't follow the cookie cutter build, or play the FotM overpowered character. Any plebe with 2 working brain cells can be successful in DAoC, or WoW playing a stealth class. Not to the extent of someone that uses cunning, and so on, but still, they will be successful. I'd rather play the class everyone says is gimp, yada, yada. It makes putting your face in the dirt that much more fun for me.
Like the Necro that was talking smack about Paladins in VG. Mouthing off about how he could pwn my noob ass, and so on. 1 level higher than me, and couldn't get me below 90% before he ate his words.
So, yeah, I do like having the short end of the stick in some regards. I think it makes you a stronger, more creative player. Sure, you're gonna get rolled a lot at first, and the path to the end will be longer, harder, and often frustrating, but I think it's worth it to be able to say that I chose the harder path, and still came out on top. That's just me, though.
It seems we agree alot after all. I prefeer to play as the underdogs as well. Though I dont like the part where Im steamrolled. Though being on the overpopulated side is even crappier. I dont see what this has to do with groups though. Equal, tough, balanced fights is the best there is anyway. Period.
I also like the classes and combat system in Vanguard and no doubt do they have different ways of achieving the same goals. That does not need that it has to be unbalanced at all. And idiots whine about unbalance everywhere, all the time, about everything, even if there is reason for it or not.
I havent played Vanguard much, but from what I found out when chosing a class was that the cleric was an easy class to be an effective healer with, while the Deciple was much more challenging, but could be equally good if played well. So, ofcourse I chose the Deciple.
Then again, who said Warhammer wouldnt go about it the same way? From what I've seen the classes are buildt to do the same objective (after all, thats the reason for having different classes eh?).
And as for fotm classes and such, Im all for alternative setups. If they work. If not, there are always skilled, high ranked people running optimized groups that wipes the floor with you. Being average aint that great tbh.
Being as how the devs of Mythic (and WarOnline) ARE dumb, they cant help but bring their gameplay down to their level. The only thing this game has going for it is the authentic feel of the terrain and graphics.
They missed the boat for a godlike game a long time ago, when they made this game for kids. Massive wholesale slaughter with gore and nudity isnt for kids. Another bout of censorship for dollars by the same people who brought us DAO-imbalanced-C.
...Still, those greenskins look awesome, dont they?