The burden is not on me, nor should it be, to "help" get this game to market by becoming some starry-eyed, pollyanish fanboi who thinks some guy with a calculator and a laptop is Elvis Presley. It is time for Simu to make this game and get it to market, or else stop taking advantage of people in a cynical marketing scheme for a engine.
I agree that you should never resort to becoming some "starry-eyed, pollyanish fanboi", which is a sin in and of itself.
However, the one the thing I feel is that no developer owes you anything, at least not until you start paying $$. And lets be honest? Is Simutronics really stringing along people for a ride? No, not at all! Silence is way better than "promises" that will later be broken anyway. If they wanted to string us along, they're doing an awfully terrible job of it. Other than that, they'll throw us a bone when they see fit, and I'm happy with that. I want them to continue and license out their engine, it means more money and success for them. I also want them to finish up HJ, but I don't know what their situation is like. Do we put this extra developer on HJ? Or, do we put him on HeroEngine development? Well, HJ has been making slow but steady progress, but we need him on engine development because that'll help our licensees, HJ, and our engine marketability. Or is it more like this? Lets put him on HJ because most of our resources are already on engine development. What would be your call and why, and it could very easily go either way?
As a fan, the last time I crashed and burned was with Horizons. Now that is a perfect example of developers, I'm looking at you Bowman, stringing fans along for a very brutal ride. I'll never do that again. Actually, the last time that happened was with WISH where I was actually able to play the game and see how great it was. However, I still give the developer the benefit of the doubt until I see the words canceled in bright bold letters. Its called faith and maybe I have too much of it.
This is probably just a small pebble thrown in a very large pond here, but to add a little more perspective to this discussion, I feel I have some experience as a player and a game host volunteer that might prove useful. I don't have an axe to grind and I'm far from a simutronics apologist, so perhaps I can give a more objective view of how I perceive Hero's Journey.
Having played Dragonrealms over a decade ago on AOL, and running up a huge bill, I was hooked. I was extremely impressed wtih the amount of detail that was paid attention to. The room descriptions we very well done, with every room having at least something to give it some appeal. Not a cut and paste, use over and over again, room description, which most MUDs were back then. They also paid a huge amount of detail in the history and mythos of the universe they created. It helped that they had been doing Gemstone for a few years already, but that showed me that they that drew on the successes of Gemstone and tried to correct some areas where they felt they could improve. They even had a classes that did not require any combat at all, the empath and the trader. This allowed so much more in playstyle it was amazing. They also had a combat system that was tough to master, but easy to play, and felt much more realistic and a static hit point system.
What was even more amazing to me was that all this attention to detail was also wrapped up in a true roleplaying atmosphere. Name conventions were monitored and so was roleplaying speech. While they weren't oppressive with their oversight, they did try and maintain a true roleplaying environment, something no other MMORPG that I've been associated with since has accomplished.
That being said, there were frustrations with the developers, something that I see happening with Hero's Journey. The main complaint was the changes/updates to the gameplay were slow. On top of that, the GMs were intentionally vague and refused to give any time frames. It was explained at the time that when they did give a date and due to various reasons, usually a real world issue with the coder (sickness, accident, etc.), the date slipped. So they began a policy of not giving any dates, not even vague ones. They simply stated that it would be in the game when it was in the game. During this phase, we would constantly badger the GMs and try various ploys to try and get some kind of time frame, all to no avail.
I can say though, that when the system/change/upgrade did make it into the game, there were rarely any times when they had to do much if any bug fixes. It usually worked the first time, without needing balance tweaking, and without the loss of playtime for maintenance fix updates.
For a year, I was a volunteer game host for Dragonrealms. I enjoyed it for the most part. I was able to help people in the game without giving away secrets or spoilers. I was able to deal with conflicts and help resolve issues both with the game and with other players. However, about nine months after starting, players became increasingly frustrated with certain situations which game hosts are not allowed to deal with. The problem even got to the point that even if the game host tried to help, it went for naught, actually creating more work for the GM who ended up dealing with the situation, mostly due to the player's attitude of being owed something instead of taking the game for what it was. This created a new policy that game hosts were no longer allowed to resolve conflicts, only to take notes and pass the problem on.
I had a serious issue with being nothing more than a note taker, so I left the game host program shortly thereafter. I still respected the GMs, especially since every single one was a volunteer and we not paid a cent, but did it because they loved the game they played. However, I still feel that some of the approaches of the GMs, mostly the policies, were inflexible and helped to seclude them from the players even more. On top of their policy of not giving deadlines, now they took on the job of resolving every single conflict, instead of trying to delegate the responsibility and training the game hosts to deal with that very issue.
Shortly after that, I pretty much left the game. I maintain an account, but much of the fun of the game was beginning to lose it's fascination for me. Some of the policies of the GMs were a part of that I'm sure. However, having played a few MMOs since then, and seeing that lack (on in most cases no) interaction between the GMs and the players, I've come to respect Simutronics for how they manage their games when it comes to trying to make the game an enjoyable experience. They aren't perfect, but when I heard about Hero's Journey being resurrected, I was extremely excited about the aspect of playing a Simutronics game once again.
That said, I'm worried that Simutronics might follow the model of other MMOs when it comes to a managed world server for roleplaying and GM/player interaction. It amazes me that so many MMOs claim to be roleplaying games whereas they are really games that are based in fantasy/sci fi settings, not roleplaying games. Even Simutronics on their own forums has hedged their bet on having a managed roleplaying server. But when you see some of the MMOs out there and look at the most stable communities, they are almost always servers that have more dedicted roleplayers.
This is a disturbing trend then. Simutronic's penchant for not being forthcoming with information and not offering deadlines for when something will be ready is based in history. By itself I would not consider it an issue, so I do believe Hero's Journey will see the light of day, but I am convinced it won't be in 2007. From my experience, whenever people felt something was going to come out, say a six month timeline, I always doubled it. The flip side was that when it did come out, it was right the first time. However, with some of the possible philosophy changes, going away from what made their games better than others and moving closer to the models of other MMOs, there is a real reason to be concerned that we may be dealing with the similar growth problems of other MMOs. The final release might be as buggy as most MMO releases. Having a ton of people carping about 'vaporware' might not achieve the intended result: a game we all enjoy playing. Instead, assuming they bow to pressure and rush the game, we'll get another bug riddenj MMO fiasco.
I doubt I would go to the extreme of calling Hero's Journey vaporware since Simutronics has never actually stated a release date. The date given here is an approximation by this website, not an official date from Simutronics. I'd much rather wait for a solid game on release than play a game that frustrates me and makes me not want to play. Hopefully their silence on this matter means they are not bowing to pressure to rush the project and are paying attention to the details, the same philosophy that made their text based games so popular and a cut above the rest. While constant updates on their site would be nice, it's not very realistic based on Simutronic's history, so badgering them here probbably won't do any good, at least I hope not.
Does Simutronics have some issues they need to work on? Yes, they do. While their MUDs are very good, they have an economic hole they need to fix, both in real world sales and in the in-game inflation issues. They also need to seriously address the roleplaying server option as many former Simutronics clients are asking for just that. Since there will be multiple servers, it would be easy to have just one managed roleplaying server. Ignoring that community would mean they aren't listing to many in the extended community as a whole, and that would be most worrisome indeed. While we should not expect them to bow to irrational pressure, they should be listening to their protential customers and attempting to make a game they both their players and themselves would be proud of. I certainly hope they also work on their in-game customer service. It's extremely frustrating when you aren't getting a response from the forums, it's even more frustrating when you feel you aren't getting the attention you need for your problem due to untrained people who have the time to help you but can't and then waiting for someone who are trained but not be available for hours on end.
To wrap this up, I hope Hero's Journey does see the light of day. I will be one of the first to play the game. I'll also be one of the first to let them know what's wrong and what's right with their game. I don't feel that the lack of communication by Simutronics is uncommon by them, and in fact is quite the norm. So, based on past history, I don't feel anything that's been done up to now is any different than what Simutronics has always done, so it doesn't equate to trying to label it 'vaporware'. But with any project, if they decide there's no money in the effort to be made, they will shelve it. That's reality, however you want to label it.
Originally posted by Amathe It is time for Simu to make this game and get it to market, or else stop taking advantage of people in a cynical marketing scheme for a engine.
So to sum up your posts (the way I read it) you are just having a cry because a game you were interested in isnt going to be out this year. Was there any other point to your posts?
As long as the developer is still working on the game - who cares when it will be out? Since most mmorpg's take 3 to 5 years to develop I wasnt expecting HJ this year anyway.
I defy you to show a case where people have been taken advantage of. Its not like paying Sigil to beta test vanguard.
Having played DR for more years than I care to remember (used to log in through GEnie), I would have had to agree with your post ... until about 8 months ago. I'm not sure what went on in the DR production department, but all I can say is WOW! They are ultra responsive, constantly conversing with the customer base, listening and reacting to feedback and new systems and fixes are getting rolled out faster than I can keep up with. It's truly amazing.
DR development and CS is fantastic these days and has been these past 8ish months. I've no clue why it changed, but they have got their shit together these days!
I disagree with the OP here, I believe the arguments and points being made are due to the OP believeing that he/she/it has a god given right to a direct network connection straight into SIMU HQ, Uhm or is that the new HQ which they are filling with new staff.
The Hero engine is being licenced not sold, great marketing and approach which will help the HJ development all round.
I am starting to feel very positive about this title.
See you all in HJ sometime in the future...
________________________________________________________ Sorcery must persist, the future is the Citadel
Comments
I agree that you should never resort to becoming some "starry-eyed, pollyanish fanboi", which is a sin in and of itself.
However, the one the thing I feel is that no developer owes you anything, at least not until you start paying $$. And lets be honest? Is Simutronics really stringing along people for a ride? No, not at all! Silence is way better than "promises" that will later be broken anyway. If they wanted to string us along, they're doing an awfully terrible job of it. Other than that, they'll throw us a bone when they see fit, and I'm happy with that. I want them to continue and license out their engine, it means more money and success for them. I also want them to finish up HJ, but I don't know what their situation is like. Do we put this extra developer on HJ? Or, do we put him on HeroEngine development? Well, HJ has been making slow but steady progress, but we need him on engine development because that'll help our licensees, HJ, and our engine marketability. Or is it more like this? Lets put him on HJ because most of our resources are already on engine development. What would be your call and why, and it could very easily go either way?
As a fan, the last time I crashed and burned was with Horizons. Now that is a perfect example of developers, I'm looking at you Bowman, stringing fans along for a very brutal ride. I'll never do that again. Actually, the last time that happened was with WISH where I was actually able to play the game and see how great it was. However, I still give the developer the benefit of the doubt until I see the words canceled in bright bold letters. Its called faith and maybe I have too much of it.
Having played Dragonrealms over a decade ago on AOL, and running up a huge bill, I was hooked. I was extremely impressed wtih the amount of detail that was paid attention to. The room descriptions we very well done, with every room having at least something to give it some appeal. Not a cut and paste, use over and over again, room description, which most MUDs were back then. They also paid a huge amount of detail in the history and mythos of the universe they created. It helped that they had been doing Gemstone for a few years already, but that showed me that they that drew on the successes of Gemstone and tried to correct some areas where they felt they could improve. They even had a classes that did not require any combat at all, the empath and the trader. This allowed so much more in playstyle it was amazing. They also had a combat system that was tough to master, but easy to play, and felt much more realistic and a static hit point system.
What was even more amazing to me was that all this attention to detail was also wrapped up in a true roleplaying atmosphere. Name conventions were monitored and so was roleplaying speech. While they weren't oppressive with their oversight, they did try and maintain a true roleplaying environment, something no other MMORPG that I've been associated with since has accomplished.
That being said, there were frustrations with the developers, something that I see happening with Hero's Journey. The main complaint was the changes/updates to the gameplay were slow. On top of that, the GMs were intentionally vague and refused to give any time frames. It was explained at the time that when they did give a date and due to various reasons, usually a real world issue with the coder (sickness, accident, etc.), the date slipped. So they began a policy of not giving any dates, not even vague ones. They simply stated that it would be in the game when it was in the game. During this phase, we would constantly badger the GMs and try various ploys to try and get some kind of time frame, all to no avail.
I can say though, that when the system/change/upgrade did make it into the game, there were rarely any times when they had to do much if any bug fixes. It usually worked the first time, without needing balance tweaking, and without the loss of playtime for maintenance fix updates.
For a year, I was a volunteer game host for Dragonrealms. I enjoyed it for the most part. I was able to help people in the game without giving away secrets or spoilers. I was able to deal with conflicts and help resolve issues both with the game and with other players. However, about nine months after starting, players became increasingly frustrated with certain situations which game hosts are not allowed to deal with. The problem even got to the point that even if the game host tried to help, it went for naught, actually creating more work for the GM who ended up dealing with the situation, mostly due to the player's attitude of being owed something instead of taking the game for what it was. This created a new policy that game hosts were no longer allowed to resolve conflicts, only to take notes and pass the problem on.
I had a serious issue with being nothing more than a note taker, so I left the game host program shortly thereafter. I still respected the GMs, especially since every single one was a volunteer and we not paid a cent, but did it because they loved the game they played. However, I still feel that some of the approaches of the GMs, mostly the policies, were inflexible and helped to seclude them from the players even more. On top of their policy of not giving deadlines, now they took on the job of resolving every single conflict, instead of trying to delegate the responsibility and training the game hosts to deal with that very issue.
Shortly after that, I pretty much left the game. I maintain an account, but much of the fun of the game was beginning to lose it's fascination for me. Some of the policies of the GMs were a part of that I'm sure. However, having played a few MMOs since then, and seeing that lack (on in most cases no) interaction between the GMs and the players, I've come to respect Simutronics for how they manage their games when it comes to trying to make the game an enjoyable experience. They aren't perfect, but when I heard about Hero's Journey being resurrected, I was extremely excited about the aspect of playing a Simutronics game once again.
That said, I'm worried that Simutronics might follow the model of other MMOs when it comes to a managed world server for roleplaying and GM/player interaction. It amazes me that so many MMOs claim to be roleplaying games whereas they are really games that are based in fantasy/sci fi settings, not roleplaying games. Even Simutronics on their own forums has hedged their bet on having a managed roleplaying server. But when you see some of the MMOs out there and look at the most stable communities, they are almost always servers that have more dedicted roleplayers.
This is a disturbing trend then. Simutronic's penchant for not being forthcoming with information and not offering deadlines for when something will be ready is based in history. By itself I would not consider it an issue, so I do believe Hero's Journey will see the light of day, but I am convinced it won't be in 2007. From my experience, whenever people felt something was going to come out, say a six month timeline, I always doubled it. The flip side was that when it did come out, it was right the first time. However, with some of the possible philosophy changes, going away from what made their games better than others and moving closer to the models of other MMOs, there is a real reason to be concerned that we may be dealing with the similar growth problems of other MMOs. The final release might be as buggy as most MMO releases. Having a ton of people carping about 'vaporware' might not achieve the intended result: a game we all enjoy playing. Instead, assuming they bow to pressure and rush the game, we'll get another bug riddenj MMO fiasco.
I doubt I would go to the extreme of calling Hero's Journey vaporware since Simutronics has never actually stated a release date. The date given here is an approximation by this website, not an official date from Simutronics. I'd much rather wait for a solid game on release than play a game that frustrates me and makes me not want to play. Hopefully their silence on this matter means they are not bowing to pressure to rush the project and are paying attention to the details, the same philosophy that made their text based games so popular and a cut above the rest. While constant updates on their site would be nice, it's not very realistic based on Simutronic's history, so badgering them here probbably won't do any good, at least I hope not.
Does Simutronics have some issues they need to work on? Yes, they do. While their MUDs are very good, they have an economic hole they need to fix, both in real world sales and in the in-game inflation issues. They also need to seriously address the roleplaying server option as many former Simutronics clients are asking for just that. Since there will be multiple servers, it would be easy to have just one managed roleplaying server. Ignoring that community would mean they aren't listing to many in the extended community as a whole, and that would be most worrisome indeed. While we should not expect them to bow to irrational pressure, they should be listening to their protential customers and attempting to make a game they both their players and themselves would be proud of. I certainly hope they also work on their in-game customer service. It's extremely frustrating when you aren't getting a response from the forums, it's even more frustrating when you feel you aren't getting the attention you need for your problem due to untrained people who have the time to help you but can't and then waiting for someone who are trained but not be available for hours on end.
To wrap this up, I hope Hero's Journey does see the light of day. I will be one of the first to play the game. I'll also be one of the first to let them know what's wrong and what's right with their game. I don't feel that the lack of communication by Simutronics is uncommon by them, and in fact is quite the norm. So, based on past history, I don't feel anything that's been done up to now is any different than what Simutronics has always done, so it doesn't equate to trying to label it 'vaporware'. But with any project, if they decide there's no money in the effort to be made, they will shelve it. That's reality, however you want to label it.
Calmyron, that was one of the better posts I've seen describing Simutronics.
PinTBC
So to sum up your posts (the way I read it) you are just having a cry because a game you were interested in isnt going to be out this year. Was there any other point to your posts?
As long as the developer is still working on the game - who cares when it will be out? Since most mmorpg's take 3 to 5 years to develop I wasnt expecting HJ this year anyway.
I defy you to show a case where people have been taken advantage of. Its not like paying Sigil to beta test vanguard.
Calmyron,
Having played DR for more years than I care to remember (used to log in through GEnie), I would have had to agree with your post ... until about 8 months ago. I'm not sure what went on in the DR production department, but all I can say is WOW! They are ultra responsive, constantly conversing with the customer base, listening and reacting to feedback and new systems and fixes are getting rolled out faster than I can keep up with. It's truly amazing.
DR development and CS is fantastic these days and has been these past 8ish months. I've no clue why it changed, but they have got their shit together these days!
Jonny
I disagree with the OP here, I believe the arguments and points being made are due to the OP believeing that he/she/it has a god given right to a direct network connection straight into SIMU HQ, Uhm or is that the new HQ which they are filling with new staff.
The Hero engine is being licenced not sold, great marketing and approach which will help the HJ development all round.
I am starting to feel very positive about this title.
See you all in HJ sometime in the future...
________________________________________________________
Sorcery must persist, the future is the Citadel