I think that would be guild wars. Other then that, they continually try to incorporate the two gaming styles together to make this one utopia game. All i can say before i leave this topic alone is........Sony, stay away from mmo's.
are you serious? QQ more, casual players want to have the best without spending time and skill to get it?
So make a game that everyone is maxed skill, gear and see if it happens
gl
Exactly about Guild Wars.
BTW strange article. Wroted about PvP and not mentioned Guild Wars.
I couldn't agree more, the article was supposed to be about casual PvP and the funny thing is, that's exactly what you can find in Guild Wars, it's called "Random Arena Battles", and for those who don't know (like the guy who wrote the article) it's the entry-level form of PvP of Guild Wars, a system where you are grouped together with four random people hanging around the arena, facing a similar group of random people; it's casual, it's unpredictable and most of all, a lot of fun. Also, because the really skilled people have moved on to other forms of more organized stuff like Guild vs Guild and such, the playing field is pretty even, most are beginners or advanced beginners I think, not too many elite players hanging around.
I should add that I am one of those casual mostly PvE-players and i've found that the Random Arenas in Guild Wars is a great way to "jump in" and get a taste of what real PvP is all about: needless to say I was slaughtered the first 10 times or so when I entered these arenas but slowly, ever so slowly I'm starting to get the hang of it, knowing when to hang back and when to go for the attack, how to be an asset to the team rather than a complete disaster, basically learning a little bit more every time, starting to score a kill now and then and even being part of winning a battle here and there! So there is your casual PvP system right there, its been there for about 2 years since the release of GW in fact
Good post I dont think the writer researched the alternatives
Guild Wars is PVP like Counter-Strike is PVP. Ditto World of Warcraft. So far there's been three games that have really given PVP a fleshed out reason to exist: Ultima Online, Dark Age of Camelot, and most importantly Shadowbane. Who cares if the PVP is in battlegrounds or not when you don't have a reason to PVP. Humans may be more unpredictable but without a political schema in place the PVP will invariably become stale quite quickly. The three games mentioned above, especially UO and SB, gave the world to the players to do with what they will. Shadowbane in particular gave about 80% of the world map to be buildable upon by human players. Not only did it add a reason to PVP it added a checks and balances against what many people refer to as 'gankers'. It instantly became a lot harder to gank without fear of serious reprecussion if you had a city with millions of gold and weeks of time invested into it. PVP needs to be included in MMO's from the get-go, not as some battleground afterthought to appease the crowd. Hopefully whatever game SBG is cooking up now will be able to do match the incredible concepts that began in SB.
I regret I have not gotten a chance to play those games but I do agree with the points you tried to make.
This article is off the mark as far as PVP is concerned. The only reason many people play the online games is for the excitement of the PVP. It should not be level or area restricted. Going into a PVP server I realize I will get creamed by higher levels. It adds excitement to the game. Where can I level with low traffic, here comes someone on the radar (freind or foe?), FOE RUN FOR MY LIFE!!!!!
In turn I know I will get payback on the lowbies of peeps rerolling. The best time I have ever had in a game is when my friend (both in excess of lvl 100 in Asheron's Call) dressed up in rags, named our group "Leave us alone", and proceeded to a newbie town. I nearly pissed my pants when a group of newbs said "Hey look at the name of their group!! Lets get them!!" I fell out of my chair laughing as we blasted the hell out of them and the others turn tail and ran!
There is nothing like an all out war with all levels. It was a blast having all levels participate and a massive war. The lowbies and highbies side by side till death due us part. I appreciated being able to participate at a low level and in turn had fun trying to keep lowbies live as long as I could. Nothing like having a lowbie stab you in the arse while you fight a level 100+. We had so many people invovled in the war we would crash the server.
Point is there are two types of servers available in most online games PVP and PVE. Let the casual players play on the PVE and let the rest of us brawl it out. I would however like to see as the trend seem to be starting to let the characters cross servers. This way when the casual player feels froggie he/she can jump to the PVP server for an arse whooping!!!
Maybe it's incorrect to say a lot of UO players complained about the ganking - but it could be correct to say that potential players were turned off by the Wild West nature of the game. Hearing horror stories of never being able to leave town without dying is one of the reasons I stayed away from MMOGs until years later.
Anyhow, I think Steve Wilson does bring up some good points about PVP, even if his article jumps all over the place. I would have preferred he concentrate on WOW (seems to be his area of expertise) and discuss how the old PVP system forced people to play 40-60 hours+ a week to reach the upper ranks and get the best PVP gear. Or how before cross realm PVP a few varsity teams dominated most servers, and if you saw them across the battleground you knew you were going to get steamrollered. I've never experienced more humility in my life than watching my PUG team /AFK or play Dance Dance Revolution as the Field Marshal alliance team kept running the flag back uncontested by anyone but me. PVP is the one area where too many games lock casual gamers out completely. At least in PVE you can set goals for yourself that are realistic for your time constraints - e.g., accepting that you may beat the 5 man instances in Outland but not beat Karazan. But how can casuals set realistic PVP goals when:
A. the team with the best gear starts with a huge advantage
B. maxxed out characters can kill lowbies with impunity, forcing a sort of arms race where the person who levels the slowest (casual players) always end up on the bottom of the food chain
My suggestion would be to establish battlegrounds or arenas based on gear and skill level (perhaps skill measured by win/loss record). That way casuals could hope to win occassional fights or even train in a AAA environment before heading to the big leagues against top PVP players. And I don't want to hear the old "there's always a better player than you out there, accept it noob" argument. Would you want to get clobbered by the Indy Colts offensive line when you just wanted to play some flag football with your buddies? Or would you want to play a game of pick-up basketball and face off against LeBron James or Michael Jordan?
Second suggestion would be to not let characters more than 5 levels above you be able to initiate PVP (high ranking players can still defend themselves if attacked by lowbies). I think a lot more players would be willing to come over to PVP servers if they knew they'd be facing characters of roughly the same level, rather than knowing that level 70 rogue is going to make a trip to Ashenvale a nightmare.
Debate what you want its hopeless 99% of mmo pops are crybabys and games like wow proof that.
Open pvp is only for those who dont care if they die its just game and to have fun.
Casuals, carebears just want no risk, they want 1 click and your dead pvp or total conrtol of enviroment and know excatly whats going to happen no surprises(battlegrounds for all the wow noobs) and brag about it how good they are in pvp lol.
Hardcore pvp will never find there way in games like wow gw or eq.
They need there own games there far more advance players and put effort in devoloping a good pvp character and learn how to play in real pvp.
Whine cry complain = mmo,s tailor made for games like wow.
So make topics about this is useless.
In 10 years time you will have same discussion becouse casuals or carebears want save pvp no risk and every hardcore pvp who play games like wow are guilty to of this whine and cry enviroment.
Hope to build full AMD system RYZEN/VEGA/AM4!!!
MB:Asus V De Luxe z77 CPU:Intell Icore7 3770k GPU: AMD Fury X(waiting for BIG VEGA 10 or 11 HBM2?(bit unclear now)) MEMORY:Corsair PLAT.DDR3 1866MHZ 16GB PSU:Corsair AX1200i OS:Windows 10 64bit
Debate what you want its hopeless 99% of mmo pops are crybabys and games like wow proof that. Open pvp is only for those who dont care if they die its just game and to have fun. Casuals, carebears just want no risk, they want 1 click and your dead pvp or total conrtol of enviroment and know excatly whats going to happen no surprises(battlegrounds for all the wow noobs) and brag about it how good they are in pvp lol. Hardcore pvp will never find there way in games like wow gw or eq. They need there own games there far more advance players and put effort in devoloping a good pvp character and learn how to play in real pvp. Whine cry complain = mmo,s tailor made for games like wow. So make topics about this is useless. In 10 years time you will have same discussion becouse casuals or carebears want save pvp no risk and every hardcore pvp who play games like wow are guilty to of this whine and cry enviroment.
A few rebuttals:
1. No, casual gamers don't want 1 shot kills or everything handed to them on a platter. If anything, it's the "hardcore" gankers who want the one-shot kills and easy wins - why else do they camp lowbie zones?
2. I agree battlegrounds are a little lame - I liked the big sweeping aspects of Alterac Valley until that battleground was also nerfed. You should have several tactics available to win, which can lead to "surprises." If on the other hand your idea of surprises is popping out of stealth as a level 70 rogue to backstab a level 20 who's at quarter health after fighting a hard mob, then no I don't share your sentiments.
3. Current MMOGs make it damn hard for any casual to become truly skilled at PVP because of the crazy gear/time requirement difference. I come from a rather hardcore (at least back in the day) RTS background, so I know the importance of strategy. I know the importance of teamwork and coordination. But the gear difference in WOW was so great that at most I could be a utility player. I saw far more Leroy Jenkins idiots playing at a low level of tactical skill but getting away with it because they farm PVE instances for the top gear. Or they play 60+ hours a week to get the top end PVP gear - the old rank system was the worst idea invented ever.
4. In the end, casual players want a chance to have fun and compete against people of their own level. I know there are plenty of people out there who are more skilled than me, and I don't mind losing if I feel I actually had a chance to compete.
I agree that most of the time it's the hardcore pvp types that want the 1-shot kills and do the ganking. When I played DAoC, I knew a 50 infiltrator (albion assassin stealth class) that was proud of the fact that of his 700k realm points, probably 90% came from 1-shotting level 20's or lower. I never understood that "let's go gank some lowbies" mentality some of those pvp players have. To me, pvp is about the challenge of an unpredicatable opponent. I got more satisfaction taking down someone near my level, than running off to Newbie Land and mass-murdering players that have absolutely no chance of harming me.
However, since I don't enjoy ganking people 1/10th my level, I guess that will make me a "carebear" in their eyes.
Kinda weird the author didn't mention Guild Wars but oh well, he probably didn't want to add more gas to the flames ("not an mmo blah blah blah")
I tend to agree with most of what vajuras said though.
And I'll never ever quite understand that logic about gear (primarily) and level discrepancies being perfectly normal. I mean, it's comparing "quantity of PvE" and "quality of PvP". Time spent fighting scripted critters after you google a walkthrough, vs. getting pitted against an opponent with a fairly unpredictable behaviour and a much larger set of possible moves. That just doesn't fit together. As such I really see no reason why any numerical advantage gained in the former case should give any edge in the latter.
You got a shiny new weapon that does 10 times more damage than mine. Kuddos, you probably earned in through commitment. Just don't shake it in front of my face in an attempt to 2-shot me, ok?
"To me, pvp is about the challenge of an unpredicatable opponent. I got more satisfaction taking down someone near my level, than running off to Newbie Land and mass-murdering players that have absolutely no chance of harming me."
Comments
Exactly about Guild Wars.
I couldn't agree more, the article was supposed to be about casual PvP and the funny thing is, that's exactly what you can find in Guild Wars, it's called "Random Arena Battles", and for those who don't know (like the guy who wrote the article) it's the entry-level form of PvP of Guild Wars, a system where you are grouped together with four random people hanging around the arena, facing a similar group of random people; it's casual, it's unpredictable and most of all, a lot of fun. Also, because the really skilled people have moved on to other forms of more organized stuff like Guild vs Guild and such, the playing field is pretty even, most are beginners or advanced beginners I think, not too many elite players hanging around.BTW strange article. Wroted about PvP and not mentioned Guild Wars.
I should add that I am one of those casual mostly PvE-players and i've found that the Random Arenas in Guild Wars is a great way to "jump in" and get a taste of what real PvP is all about: needless to say I was slaughtered the first 10 times or so when I entered these arenas but slowly, ever so slowly I'm starting to get the hang of it, knowing when to hang back and when to go for the attack, how to be an asset to the team rather than a complete disaster, basically learning a little bit more every time, starting to score a kill now and then and even being part of winning a battle here and there! So there is your casual PvP system right there, its been there for about 2 years since the release of GW in fact
Good post I dont think the writer researched the alternatives
I regret I have not gotten a chance to play those games but I do agree with the points you tried to make.
bow>>>
This article is off the mark as far as PVP is concerned. The only reason many people play the online games is for the excitement of the PVP. It should not be level or area restricted. Going into a PVP server I realize I will get creamed by higher levels. It adds excitement to the game. Where can I level with low traffic, here comes someone on the radar (freind or foe?), FOE RUN FOR MY LIFE!!!!!
In turn I know I will get payback on the lowbies of peeps rerolling. The best time I have ever had in a game is when my friend (both in excess of lvl 100 in Asheron's Call) dressed up in rags, named our group "Leave us alone", and proceeded to a newbie town. I nearly pissed my pants when a group of newbs said "Hey look at the name of their group!! Lets get them!!" I fell out of my chair laughing as we blasted the hell out of them and the others turn tail and ran!
There is nothing like an all out war with all levels. It was a blast having all levels participate and a massive war. The lowbies and highbies side by side till death due us part. I appreciated being able to participate at a low level and in turn had fun trying to keep lowbies live as long as I could. Nothing like having a lowbie stab you in the arse while you fight a level 100+. We had so many people invovled in the war we would crash the server.
Point is there are two types of servers available in most online games PVP and PVE. Let the casual players play on the PVE and let the rest of us brawl it out. I would however like to see as the trend seem to be starting to let the characters cross servers. This way when the casual player feels froggie he/she can jump to the PVP server for an arse whooping!!!
Mr Mediocrity writes again. The champion of the LCD.
"Ultima Online was the first big commercial game to try this style of PvP and the majority of customers complained bitterly."
Proof please Mr Toohey.
''98-''99 UO (Golden days!)
''00-''02 CS; SB beta
''03-''04 MODO
''04-''07 WoW
''07 - SB
Waiting for Darkfall and PoBS
Maybe it's incorrect to say a lot of UO players complained about the ganking - but it could be correct to say that potential players were turned off by the Wild West nature of the game. Hearing horror stories of never being able to leave town without dying is one of the reasons I stayed away from MMOGs until years later.
Anyhow, I think Steve Wilson does bring up some good points about PVP, even if his article jumps all over the place. I would have preferred he concentrate on WOW (seems to be his area of expertise) and discuss how the old PVP system forced people to play 40-60 hours+ a week to reach the upper ranks and get the best PVP gear. Or how before cross realm PVP a few varsity teams dominated most servers, and if you saw them across the battleground you knew you were going to get steamrollered. I've never experienced more humility in my life than watching my PUG team /AFK or play Dance Dance Revolution as the Field Marshal alliance team kept running the flag back uncontested by anyone but me. PVP is the one area where too many games lock casual gamers out completely. At least in PVE you can set goals for yourself that are realistic for your time constraints - e.g., accepting that you may beat the 5 man instances in Outland but not beat Karazan. But how can casuals set realistic PVP goals when:
A. the team with the best gear starts with a huge advantage
B. maxxed out characters can kill lowbies with impunity, forcing a sort of arms race where the person who levels the slowest (casual players) always end up on the bottom of the food chain
My suggestion would be to establish battlegrounds or arenas based on gear and skill level (perhaps skill measured by win/loss record). That way casuals could hope to win occassional fights or even train in a AAA environment before heading to the big leagues against top PVP players. And I don't want to hear the old "there's always a better player than you out there, accept it noob" argument. Would you want to get clobbered by the Indy Colts offensive line when you just wanted to play some flag football with your buddies? Or would you want to play a game of pick-up basketball and face off against LeBron James or Michael Jordan?
Second suggestion would be to not let characters more than 5 levels above you be able to initiate PVP (high ranking players can still defend themselves if attacked by lowbies). I think a lot more players would be willing to come over to PVP servers if they knew they'd be facing characters of roughly the same level, rather than knowing that level 70 rogue is going to make a trip to Ashenvale a nightmare.
D&D Home Page - What Class Are You? - Build A Character - D&D Compendium
Debate what you want its hopeless 99% of mmo pops are crybabys and games like wow proof that.
Open pvp is only for those who dont care if they die its just game and to have fun.
Casuals, carebears just want no risk, they want 1 click and your dead pvp or total conrtol of enviroment and know excatly whats going to happen no surprises(battlegrounds for all the wow noobs) and brag about it how good they are in pvp lol.
Hardcore pvp will never find there way in games like wow gw or eq.
They need there own games there far more advance players and put effort in devoloping a good pvp character and learn how to play in real pvp.
Whine cry complain = mmo,s tailor made for games like wow.
So make topics about this is useless.
In 10 years time you will have same discussion becouse casuals or carebears want save pvp no risk and every hardcore pvp who play games like wow are guilty to of this whine and cry enviroment.
Hope to build full AMD system RYZEN/VEGA/AM4!!!
MB:Asus V De Luxe z77
CPU:Intell Icore7 3770k
GPU: AMD Fury X(waiting for BIG VEGA 10 or 11 HBM2?(bit unclear now))
MEMORY:Corsair PLAT.DDR3 1866MHZ 16GB
PSU:Corsair AX1200i
OS:Windows 10 64bit
A few rebuttals:
1. No, casual gamers don't want 1 shot kills or everything handed to them on a platter. If anything, it's the "hardcore" gankers who want the one-shot kills and easy wins - why else do they camp lowbie zones?
2. I agree battlegrounds are a little lame - I liked the big sweeping aspects of Alterac Valley until that battleground was also nerfed. You should have several tactics available to win, which can lead to "surprises." If on the other hand your idea of surprises is popping out of stealth as a level 70 rogue to backstab a level 20 who's at quarter health after fighting a hard mob, then no I don't share your sentiments.
3. Current MMOGs make it damn hard for any casual to become truly skilled at PVP because of the crazy gear/time requirement difference. I come from a rather hardcore (at least back in the day) RTS background, so I know the importance of strategy. I know the importance of teamwork and coordination. But the gear difference in WOW was so great that at most I could be a utility player. I saw far more Leroy Jenkins idiots playing at a low level of tactical skill but getting away with it because they farm PVE instances for the top gear. Or they play 60+ hours a week to get the top end PVP gear - the old rank system was the worst idea invented ever.
4. In the end, casual players want a chance to have fun and compete against people of their own level. I know there are plenty of people out there who are more skilled than me, and I don't mind losing if I feel I actually had a chance to compete.
D&D Home Page - What Class Are You? - Build A Character - D&D Compendium
First off, well said BattleFelon.
I agree that most of the time it's the hardcore pvp types that want the 1-shot kills and do the ganking. When I played DAoC, I knew a 50 infiltrator (albion assassin stealth class) that was proud of the fact that of his 700k realm points, probably 90% came from 1-shotting level 20's or lower. I never understood that "let's go gank some lowbies" mentality some of those pvp players have. To me, pvp is about the challenge of an unpredicatable opponent. I got more satisfaction taking down someone near my level, than running off to Newbie Land and mass-murdering players that have absolutely no chance of harming me.
However, since I don't enjoy ganking people 1/10th my level, I guess that will make me a "carebear" in their eyes.
Kinda weird the author didn't mention Guild Wars but oh well, he probably didn't want to add more gas to the flames ("not an mmo blah blah blah")
I tend to agree with most of what vajuras said though.
And I'll never ever quite understand that logic about gear (primarily) and level discrepancies being perfectly normal. I mean, it's comparing "quantity of PvE" and "quality of PvP". Time spent fighting scripted critters after you google a walkthrough, vs. getting pitted against an opponent with a fairly unpredictable behaviour and a much larger set of possible moves. That just doesn't fit together. As such I really see no reason why any numerical advantage gained in the former case should give any edge in the latter.
You got a shiny new weapon that does 10 times more damage than mine. Kuddos, you probably earned in through commitment. Just don't shake it in front of my face in an attempt to 2-shot me, ok?
"To me, pvp is about the challenge of an unpredicatable opponent. I got more satisfaction taking down someone near my level, than running off to Newbie Land and mass-murdering players that have absolutely no chance of harming me."
Thumbs up there, buddy
__________
Ever wondered what a hardcore WoW raider looked like?
R.I.P. Laura "Taera" Genender