Requiring all classes to be equal in 1v1 isn't possible, practical or necissary. As long as no one class can own more than it's equal share of other classes that's fine. If your feelings get hurt cause you can only beat class X and Y, but Z wtfpwns you every time, then you need to get over yourself and lighten up. One of the two classes you own, should be able to keep Z in check. I will be very disappointed if they listen to solo l337 whiners and dilute any kind of advantage from all the classes. If it doesn't matter what class you play, then what's the point of classes?
This is an RvR game, not PvP... Balance the realms, not each individual class. Grouping shouldn't be required. You can solo, just don't expect to own everyone because you think you're just that good. Learn what classes you have no chance against and avoid them, get help, delay, or ignore em and focus on the class you can kill and take the death. It's a realm-wide effort wether you're grouped or not, 1v1 is NOT important.
MMOs Played: EQ 1&2, DAoC, SWG, Planetside, WoW, GW, CoX, DDO, EVE, Vanguard, TR Playing: WAR Awaiting 40k Online and wishing for Battletech Online
Look at it this way... if a chosen is up against any other empire class 1v1, the other class should have equal chances to win because (I may be pulling numbers out of my ass here, but if you play along you get the idea):
A Chosen is 40% Melee DPS 60% tanking ability.
A Warrior Priest is 33% Melee DPS 33% tanking ability 33% righteous fury(choice between offensive spells and defensive spells).
A Knight is 40% Melee DPS 60% tanking ability.
A Witch Hunter is 60% Melee DPS(some is ranged) 40% tanking ability(think dodging and stuff).
A Bright Wizard is 70% all around DPS 30% tanking ability.
That means the classes are balanced, and if the players choose the right skills to use in order to fully utilize their characters potential in this particular 1v1 situation, their odds of winning increase.
Not that much to read on on the forum at the moment so i tought i would ask the comunity a question. How many of u dosent really care if one class pawns everything else in a one vs one fight. In my opinion the important thing is that every class is really good to have in a group. Me myself i could easely play a buff oriented class or somting else that i would imagine suck in a one vs one fight.
If I have a competant group with me I wouldn't worry about being the lowly healer in the background.
The problem is a lot of DPS kiddies don't understand group dynamics and end up trying to dive head first into a caster. That means I'm left open to defend myself against a guy with a giant hammer of headsmish.
DAOC WASNT balanced in 1v1 in the SLIGHTEST. If I came up on certain classes, I knew that it didnt matter what I did in the fight and that it was practically inevitable I was going to lose. This made it very important to play well in a GROUP setting and I enjoyed the group pvp very much.
? My shammy never had any problems taking any class 1v1 on mordred it was just a matter of FPS style tactics and cat and mouse. With the ability to drop piles of abilities on people at a distance or appear in front of someone and disable them temporarily, the game has vast amounts of cases where even the worst classes can kill the best classes without breaking a sweat if you play them correctly and with alot of luck. My shammy's stats are on my gamer profile if you're wondering what his speccs were. He wasn't overpowered in any way just got real lucky often and knew the areas i was being ambushed in better than the people who attacked me. Only real problem i ever had was supp bd's with rr10+. I haven't played in a year or two though so maybe things have just drastically changed? I sure hope they haven't, the game was going to hell fast as it was.
There is a difference between unbalanced and overpowered. I don't care if say in, WARs case, a Witch Hunter is very powerful in PvP. He can pretty much own everything 1v1 but when its 1v2 hes done. That's good, but if in a fight he can be 1v10 and still win, thats overpowered.
I don't remember who said it but I saw it on this forum, "To be balance there must be unbalance." Very true.
Not a bad answer...but certainly not the correct one for WAR, since the game is all about "the PVP.".
We will see.
A Huge proportion of the Warhammer fanbase isn't PvP-oriented...at least not PvP-oriented when it is in real time, which is the case of WAR. You must remember, that old skool warhammer fans, they play GBT...real time PvP...we will see.
Mythic made quite a few broad claims about PvE appeal in the game. I am pretty sure many PvE player will consider WAR, is the game going to keep them or just waste on potential, that is not for me to say. I will try the game, even if, I really don,t care about PvP. Will I try to PvP? Prolly...but will I play the game for the PvP? Unlikely to be optimist!
- "If I understand you well, you are telling me until next time. " - Ren
It's going to be very difficult to wait another half year to see, lets hope we all get tester spots or they release it early ^_^ My shrine for those scenarios is going nite and day so dont worry.
Originally posted by logangregor DAOC WASNT balanced in 1v1 in the SLIGHTEST. If I came up on certain classes, I knew that it didnt matter what I did in the fight and that it was practically inevitable I was going to lose. This made it very important to play well in a GROUP setting and I enjoyed the group pvp very much.
? My shammy never had any problems taking any class 1v1 on mordred it was just a matter of FPS style tactics and cat and mouse. With the ability to drop piles of abilities on people at a distance or appear in front of someone and disable them temporarily, the game has vast amounts of cases where even the worst classes can kill the best classes without breaking a sweat if you play them correctly and with alot of luck. My shammy's stats are on my gamer profile if you're wondering what his speccs were. He wasn't overpowered in any way just got real lucky often and knew the areas i was being ambushed in better than the people who attacked me. Only real problem i ever had was supp bd's with rr10+. I haven't played in a year or two though so maybe things have just drastically changed? I sure hope they haven't, the game was going to hell fast as it was.
Well, I respect your opinion and respectfully disagree. You may have been good vs most classes in DAOC (on your sham) but I dont beleive that holds true for most classes in DAOC.
So you played a cave sham? Always wanted to play one of those but I always heard they got no group love. My lowby cave sham was a blast though.(doh nvm, you didnt have a cave sham, SHAME on u :P)
Nope 43 aug 31 cave 10 mend ^_^ I was a group shammy, but i spent more time solo than i did in groups since not many elitist groups allowed sin vida members in their groupings, before that i was a mending shammy and that was absolutely hilarious in pvp. If you ever get a chance to try random speccs in pvp try a mending specc its great fun vs people who dont expect a healer to last more than 15 seconds while you're purple friggs with bonuses can last around 40 seconds and while you're zigzagging through them they find you're like a rabid squirrel on speed. ^_^ Cave shammy's were more of a solid dmg dealing characters if i recall and they soloed a bit more than i did since they could drop powerful dots on groups that were fighting and bring the mosh down real fast as they run away gathering the realmpoints. (can't foget to drop the ae diseases before you run after dropping the ae dots though or the healers will heal them, drop the disease and the healers dont heal as much so they have to drop the disease and then drop the dots on everyone in the group which unless pure heal specc could be trouble since group disease cure and poison cures aren't given except at about 30+, i think the current heal specc is high enough to get the group cures though) ^_^
Yeah i noticed that mythic didn't exactly find grouping important when i was playing they were more focused into droppin in solo classes like the vamp and the sort to disrupt the balance. this caused people to buy their expansions if they expected to have fun, most casters never had any problems with vamps though so the nerf didn't affect us that much unless they had ip3 and purge2+. I just dropped ichor 3, pbae diseased, got some range then dropped a bolt and a ae dot or whatever else i had since they usually didn't have more than 20% hp after the ichor, so the dot took out most of them. When i was mending though i didn't have ichor 3 or any of my ra's so i would sprint around till i had bout 2 secs of cast time away from them drop a frig then hammer them while i had the aten's going(yes i had aten's on my noob mending shammy) and i could usually take down a vamp like that without much difficulty, it was normally a close fight though even with frigg on since their HoT could help them a bit, but by 50 it just couldn't keep'em up. :P
p.s. have they nerfed shammy's yet ? thinking back on it the class is op'ed and amazing utility compared to most classes.
Not that much to read on on the forum at the moment so i tought i would ask the comunity a question. How many of u dosent really care if one class pawns everything else in a one vs one fight. In my opinion the important thing is that every class is really good to have in a group. Me myself i could easely play a buff oriented class or somting else that i would imagine suck in a one vs one fight.
Easy fix. Scrap the classes and lvling system. Make a skill based system. You choose your skills decide exactly what you want to be.
uhhh, what abotu people with different skills . same thing as different classes man.
"Society in every state is a blessing, but government even in its best state is but a necessary evil; in its worst state an intolerable one ..." - Thomas Paine
Not that much to read on on the forum at the moment so i tought i would ask the comunity a question. How many of u dosent really care if one class pawns everything else in a one vs one fight. In my opinion the important thing is that every class is really good to have in a group. Me myself i could easely play a buff oriented class or somting else that i would imagine suck in a one vs one fight.
Easy fix. Scrap the classes and lvling system. Make a skill based system. You choose your skills decide exactly what you want to be.
uhhh, what abotu people with different skills . same thing as different classes man.:-? maybe he means no classes at all?... like everyone is a neutral blank race and you can pick the skills you want and level them like that?. that seems more like a roleplaying overtime kinda game though right? i dont play those kind of games but it seems like one... Classes instill a kind of individuality and give people a feeling of camaraderie in communities of the classes playerbase, dont they ?
I think were kind of hijacking the thread with all the DAOC talk BUT let me say...
I had a hell of a time trying to kill a vamp and I played a runie. IMO that was easily the most overpowered class that Mythic had ever introduced into the game. And it wasnt just my opinion. Heck, lol I talked to Vamps who agreed with me completely.
But back to the subject, I hope that WAR charachters play better solo vs anyone like WoW is but STILL makes the advantages of playing smart in a group HUGELY outweigh a selfish WoW type of play style. That make sense?
Oh i hope so, i've been checking out these korean games and apart from having to grind 24-7, in 2 out of 10 games people actually grouped at all, and those were usually just noobs who weren't sure what they were doing or people who just lonely with the lack of socializing. I've yet to find a game with a good solid encouragement to group like daoc, i remember in guild wars they forced you to group because most of the time the monsters were just exceptionally difficult to kill at the average level people fought them. That game was pvp based but lets hope that mythic brings the time they took to organize the grouping system to WAR...
I think were kind of hijacking the thread with all the DAOC talk BUT let me say... I had a hell of a time trying to kill a vamp and I played a runie. IMO that was easily the most overpowered class that Mythic had ever introduced into the game. And it wasnt just my opinion. Heck, lol I talked to Vamps who agreed with me completely.
But back to the subject, I hope that WAR charachters play better solo vs anyone like WoW is but STILL makes the advantages of playing smart in a group HUGELY outweigh a selfish WoW type of play style. That make sense?
Well the only thing that would remotely make sense to compare WAR to is DAOC and we really have 0 idea about WAR balancing.
Yes, vamps are a huge problem to fight 1v1, just as a mauler is hugely difficult in 1v1. But they are also rather weak in anything but 1v1.
WoW really took the class balancing too far... I mean 2 sides with the same classes is their excuse... but once again it makes very little sense for a Priest... a clothwearing sissy to be able to kill a warrior wielding a 2h axe and plate armor. It needs to be rock paper scissor to at least some degree.
no i dont mind. imo a healer should not be able to take a warrior etc one on one as this just isnt realistic .
Except that healers do tend to own everything in PVP games.
I don't think it's possible to balance every class to every other class, if one particular class dominates all the others, then we do have a problem.
What game are YOU playing where the healers owned everything? Other than WoW, which I have said before is not the RPG universe, I have never played a game where I was a solo powerhouse as a healer.
I think the way dark age of camelot was worked fine. The classes that could SOLO well , didnt offer enough to the group(infil,Reaver). The classes that whorked great in keepwarfare and mass combat didnt work well outside of those situations(AoE Rune master,Scout,Animist),. Classes that where sitting ducks without another class where able to work together and make powerhouse groups (Buff Shaman,Healing Cleric, Bubble Runemaster, Song bard)
it all ballanced out in the end and you just played ot your stregnths. I know I had a stealther for when I wanted to solo and a buffing/healing healer for when I wanted to group. I couldnt even kill a monster 3 levels below me as a healer but with a warrior we could kill monsters 5 levels above us.
I think were kind of hijacking the thread with all the DAOC talk BUT let me say... I had a hell of a time trying to kill a vamp and I played a runie. IMO that was easily the most overpowered class that Mythic had ever introduced into the game. And it wasnt just my opinion. Heck, lol I talked to Vamps who agreed with me completely.
But back to the subject, I hope that WAR charachters play better solo vs anyone like WoW is but STILL makes the advantages of playing smart in a group HUGELY outweigh a selfish WoW type of play style. That make sense?
I think from playing the game so far, that when they say "no heal only" or "namby pamby" healers they mean there is no class that ONLY heals and cant do anything else. Imagine DAoC Cleric and WoW's priest. You can spec a cleric for smite and solo well but your healing will lack, you can spec a wow priest shadow and nuke and solo great but have no healing at all. But the inverse is also true, you CAN spec both classes to support and they will fill those roles quite well. Yet still be able to support their group with the spells they use to solo with. Think DAoC Aug healer. The buffs you used to kill people also benifit your group Like celerity. Or how shadow priest in Warcraft can heal and restore mana using their talents. I think you will see more or all supportive classes play like this and not like the Healer in daoc which was a sitting duck or the Enhancement cleric which had a kickme sign on its back as well.
i always found this a really anoying but equally funny topic. in WoW i played a hunter...i felt pretty happy with the community in the early stage of the game 1-30 then things went wrong... i went into PvP for a bit to see what it was like....many arguments later and many many deaths (mostly by my character) i managed to prove that not all hunter wtfpwn everything. then it was onto raiding (which i loved very very much so but due to certain events only got as far as the first few mobs in MC) and i can say it was one hell of a time convincing people to allow me into a group. many sry we are full on hunters or no we dont want hunters and even a few hunter suck go away. it took another few months to finally convince my guild and others i party with that i was a very good raider. alas i quit WoW i got sick of all the nooby PvPers who could not handle being beaten by anyone and the constant anoyance of being denied for raids. i love unbalanced classes mainly because i can handle a defeat. infact i live for them. they teach me more about my play style and how i can better it. it also ads fear into the game
e.g i am a healer in a PvP fight and see a warrior looking at me with that evil look and i know i cant beat him...a few moments later i am either safe in my base with my fellow team mates....or dead
so to sum things up unbalanced classes are realistic and fun
MMO wish list:
-Changeable worlds -Solid non level based game -Sharks with lasers attached to their heads
no i dont mind. imo a healer should not be able to take a warrior etc one on one as this just isnt realistic .
You do know Warhammer is based on everyone fights even a healer will be up there attack the monsters and heal partly, so i do believe its possible that a healer can beat a warrior.
Actually i dont mind if someone is a overpowered class and im the underdog. First of all, i like the whole underdog feeling so it makes me try harder, also it gives it more of a challenge and excitement.
no i dont mind. imo a healer should not be able to take a warrior etc one on one as this just isnt realistic .
You do know Warhammer is based on everyone fights even a healer will be up there attack the monsters and heal partly, so i do believe its possible that a healer can beat a warrior.
Actually i dont mind if someone is a overpowered class and im the underdog. First of all, i like the whole underdog feeling so it makes me try harder, also it gives it more of a challenge and excitement.Yay so we are talking about Aug Shammys like my old one! ^_^ This will be great if so! 43 aug 31 cave 10 mend ftw!
Not that much to read on on the forum at the moment so i tought i would ask the comunity a question. How many of u dosent really care if one class pawns everything else in a one vs one fight. In my opinion the important thing is that every class is really good to have in a group. Me myself i could easely play a buff oriented class or somting else that i would imagine suck in a one vs one fight.
Your poll doesn't have other options.
I don't mind if classes aren't terribly balanced for one on one provided that they are balanced for group vs. group, however that does not mean I want one class to pwn everything one vs. one.
A game that's PvP oriented should have classes that are equal to eachother in 1v1 PvP. It's not always you will play in a grp, and when ur out trying to get some kills alone u want to be equal in strength to the other players out there.
It's acceptable if one class is slightly weaker than the other classes and harder to learn how to PvP with, but if one class is so much weaker that it has problems killing any other class in 1v1 it's not acceptable. This would create a class that would be totally underpopulated and those few who still played the class would be the first target of every1. This is not something that's good in any aspect.
The classes should be fairly balanced. Without balance the game will soon get classes that are more common and this will make the fights more unfair, as maybe one side has one class that is much better than the other sides. This will make them gain advantage in smaller fights and in the end make them stronger. These consequences are terrible as they game is PvP based.
Even tough i respect ur opinion i must say that i completly dissagree. I would gladly play a class that really cant win vs anyother class in a 1vs1 fight but instead is extremly powerfull to a group or raid. Then again im a 100% guild player. Casual partyes or solo play is for me only somting necessary to reach end game. Real problem picking classes is imo always that ur class can change so much during the time u play. My biggest fear right now about the classes is that mythic will do a "blizzard" and litsen to all whining kids and more or less try to give all classes everything so everyone will stay quiet for a few days until they finaly realize that that wont help there "l2p" issues.
Yes, different classes have different roles, so far so good. But in WAR it's been said that it won't be any 100% healer class. If there is no 100% healer class, then the class must have some offensive spells, right?
My opinion is that these offensive spells combined with the ability to heal should make the "healer" class able to kill a fighter. This is after all not illogical.
You probably see my point here?
U can totely see ur point and i completly get where u coming from but if i can present an other senerio. What if lets say a healer cant heal himself or maby some class just has some really good group buffs or major AoE dmg spells? Great in large scale pvp but not quite as good in a 1 on 1 situations?
I think we are trying to compare classes to not being able to kill another class even if ones skill level is much greater than that of their opponents. My shammy was a primary buffer/support class, but being able to solo on a healer shouldn't be a matter of "well he's a healer so he should have to be in a group if he expects to stand a chance, lets just say healers should be forced to run away and not face people head on if they know whats good for them." As long as no classes damage outweighs that of other classes then even someone playing a healer with the knowledge of pvp tactics to a degree should be able to solo tanks or casters sufficiently, the balance in daoc was fairly smart since even a newbie playing the most overpowered class couldn't dominate(until daoc came out with their op'ed expansion classes that forced players to buy the expansions or risk not standing a chance in an ffa arena). One class in solo that is balanced should have a similar position in groups, even though their priority's change and their overall tactics and playstyle changes altogether, even though someone is great in solo should still have a place in groups, unless they are assassins(though i do believe they too should have the ability to group effectively, say take away stealth while grouped and give them combat abilities that they recieve by speccing in stealth but only have them once they are in a group of 3 or more, sure one or two stealthers is still only one or two assassins but they dont entirely count as a group since their only strength comes from being invisible, people complain about stealth zergs because they can't see a large group of people until its too late, which is where the problem of one person[say a caster or a tank] walking on a bridge looking for other soloer's is instantly ambushed by a large number of people out of nowhere, the beauty of one person soloing with 8 man's in the area is that you can usually feel the lagspikes when they hit the area and you can find a safe spot or at least at like you belong there when they float by and perhaps stay alive, thus keepin the balance of the overall playfield.
Just my 2cents in this discussion. ^(^_^)><(^_^)^ Rawr!
Sorry my thinking is very hard to sort through im not great at putting thoughts into words, tried the best i could though.
I think we are trying to compare classes to not being able to kill another class even if ones skill level is much greater than that of their opponents. My shammy was a primary buffer/support class, but being able to solo on a healer shouldn't be a matter of "well he's a healer so he should have to be in a group if he expects to stand a chance, lets just say healers should be forced to run away and not face people head on if they know whats good for them." As long as no classes damage outweighs that of other classes then even someone playing a healer with the knowledge of pvp tactics to a degree should be able to solo tanks or casters sufficiently, the balance in daoc was fairly smart since even a newbie playing the most overpowered class couldn't dominate(until daoc came out with their op'ed expansion classes that forced players to buy the expansions or risk not standing a chance in an ffa arena). One class in solo that is balanced should have a similar position in groups, even though their priority's change and their overall tactics and playstyle changes altogether, even though someone is great in solo should still have a place in groups, unless they are assassins(though i do believe they too should have the ability to group effectively, say take away stealth while grouped and give them combat abilities that they recieve by speccing in stealth but only have them once they are in a group of 3 or more, sure one or two stealthers is still only one or two assassins but they dont entirely count as a group since their only strength comes from being invisible, people complain about stealth zergs because they can't see a large group of people until its too late, which is where the problem of one person[say a caster or a tank] walking on a bridge looking for other soloer's is instantly ambushed by a large number of people out of nowhere, the beauty of one person soloing with 8 man's in the area is that you can usually feel the lagspikes when they hit the area and you can find a safe spot or at least at like you belong there when they float by and perhaps stay alive, thus keepin the balance of the overall playfield. Just my 2cents in this discussion. ^(^_^)><(^_^)^ Rawr! Sorry my thinking is very hard to sort through im not great at putting thoughts into words, tried the best i could though.
Yes, everyone should have some sort of use in groups other than simple DPS or only Heals. But a Shaman is a healer/DPSer.. as the actual Healer class is a healer/cc. A Healer can't do a damn thing solo, shaman can do a lot. Each class should not be able to kill every other class. Like in WoW they overly balance every class, every class can destroy the other one with "possible" ease (note the game is still not balanced well) that's why that game isn't really an RPG, it's an RPG if you consider the possible roles to be all the same and everyone is equally capable as someone else in every situation. True balance is comparing an army of the opposing faction's classes, not 1v1. If you break the army apart the balance is skewed(skewwed?? w/e). You take a warrior out the mix of the army and he will be able to beat a healer class. However any class that isn't able to kill an attacker should have the ability (or some sort of chance) to somehow avoid death. Like the midgard Healer being able to stun and mez and then run away with his run buff.
well i dunno if that's really a response to what you said it's just more of my take on balance.
I think we are trying to compare classes to not being able to kill another class even if ones skill level is much greater than that of their opponents. My shammy was a primary buffer/support class, but being able to solo on a healer shouldn't be a matter of "well he's a healer so he should have to be in a group if he expects to stand a chance, lets just say healers should be forced to run away and not face people head on if they know whats good for them." As long as no classes damage outweighs that of other classes then even someone playing a healer with the knowledge of pvp tactics to a degree should be able to solo tanks or casters sufficiently, the balance in daoc was fairly smart since even a newbie playing the most overpowered class couldn't dominate(until daoc came out with their op'ed expansion classes that forced players to buy the expansions or risk not standing a chance in an ffa arena). One class in solo that is balanced should have a similar position in groups, even though their priority's change and their overall tactics and playstyle changes altogether, even though someone is great in solo should still have a place in groups, unless they are assassins(though i do believe they too should have the ability to group effectively, say take away stealth while grouped and give them combat abilities that they recieve by speccing in stealth but only have them once they are in a group of 3 or more, sure one or two stealthers is still only one or two assassins but they dont entirely count as a group since their only strength comes from being invisible, people complain about stealth zergs because they can't see a large group of people until its too late, which is where the problem of one person[say a caster or a tank] walking on a bridge looking for other soloer's is instantly ambushed by a large number of people out of nowhere, the beauty of one person soloing with 8 man's in the area is that you can usually feel the lagspikes when they hit the area and you can find a safe spot or at least at like you belong there when they float by and perhaps stay alive, thus keepin the balance of the overall playfield. Just my 2cents in this discussion. ^(^_^)><(^_^)^ Rawr! Sorry my thinking is very hard to sort through im not great at putting thoughts into words, tried the best i could though.
Yes, everyone should have some sort of use in groups other than simple DPS or only Heals. But a Shaman is a healer/DPSer.. as the actual Healer class is a healer/cc. A Healer can't do a damn thing solo, shaman can do a lot. Each class should not be able to kill every other class. Like in WoW they overly balance every class, every class can destroy the other one with "possible" ease (note the game is still not balanced well) that's why that game isn't really an RPG, it's an RPG if you consider the possible roles to be all the same and everyone is equally capable as someone else in every situation. True balance is comparing an army of the opposing faction's classes, not 1v1. If you break the army apart the balance is skewed(skewwed?? w/e). You take a warrior out the mix of the army and he will be able to beat a healer class. However any class that isn't able to kill an attacker should have the ability (or some sort of chance) to somehow avoid death. Like the midgard Healer being able to stun and mez and then run away with his run buff.
well i dunno if that's really a response to what you said it's just more of my take on balance.
!!!!
sounds good but dont forget that a shaman isn't known for heals, his heals are less that half that of what healers can heal for without even going full mend in their specc line. shamans are known for their buffs, remember the three realms has 1 primary healer and 1 primary buff hybrid. with alb being the "exception" with a healer/buffer a buffer/melee hybrid and a healer/melee/dps caster similar to the shammy. daoc has a very tricky balance that works out overall in the broad view of pvp in the game which keeps people coming back to the game, at least back before it started acting like blizzard and giving people each realm a fotm class in the expansions. good point though
Comments
Requiring all classes to be equal in 1v1 isn't possible, practical or necissary. As long as no one class can own more than it's equal share of other classes that's fine. If your feelings get hurt cause you can only beat class X and Y, but Z wtfpwns you every time, then you need to get over yourself and lighten up. One of the two classes you own, should be able to keep Z in check. I will be very disappointed if they listen to solo l337 whiners and dilute any kind of advantage from all the classes. If it doesn't matter what class you play, then what's the point of classes?
This is an RvR game, not PvP... Balance the realms, not each individual class. Grouping shouldn't be required. You can solo, just don't expect to own everyone because you think you're just that good. Learn what classes you have no chance against and avoid them, get help, delay, or ignore em and focus on the class you can kill and take the death. It's a realm-wide effort wether you're grouped or not, 1v1 is NOT important.
MMOs Played: EQ 1&2, DAoC, SWG, Planetside, WoW, GW, CoX, DDO, EVE, Vanguard, TR
Playing: WAR
Awaiting 40k Online and wishing for Battletech Online
A Chosen is 40% Melee DPS 60% tanking ability.
A Warrior Priest is 33% Melee DPS 33% tanking ability 33% righteous fury(choice between offensive spells and defensive spells).
A Knight is 40% Melee DPS 60% tanking ability.
A Witch Hunter is 60% Melee DPS(some is ranged) 40% tanking ability(think dodging and stuff).
A Bright Wizard is 70% all around DPS 30% tanking ability.
That means the classes are balanced, and if the players choose the right skills to use in order to fully utilize their characters potential in this particular 1v1 situation, their odds of winning increase.
The problem is a lot of DPS kiddies don't understand group dynamics and end up trying to dive head first into a caster. That means I'm left open to defend myself against a guy with a giant hammer of headsmish.
Doktar - 70 Troll Priest - Perenolde
? My shammy never had any problems taking any class 1v1 on mordred it was just a matter of FPS style tactics and cat and mouse. With the ability to drop piles of abilities on people at a distance or appear in front of someone and disable them temporarily, the game has vast amounts of cases where even the worst classes can kill the best classes without breaking a sweat if you play them correctly and with alot of luck.Gamer Profile : http://www.guildcafe.com/member/Icucme
I don't remember who said it but I saw it on this forum, "To be balance there must be unbalance." Very true.
We will see.
A Huge proportion of the Warhammer fanbase isn't PvP-oriented...at least not PvP-oriented when it is in real time, which is the case of WAR. You must remember, that old skool warhammer fans, they play GBT...real time PvP...we will see.
Mythic made quite a few broad claims about PvE appeal in the game. I am pretty sure many PvE player will consider WAR, is the game going to keep them or just waste on potential, that is not for me to say. I will try the game, even if, I really don,t care about PvP. Will I try to PvP? Prolly...but will I play the game for the PvP? Unlikely to be optimist!
- "If I understand you well, you are telling me until next time. " - Ren
It's going to be very difficult to wait another half year to see, lets hope we all get tester spots or they release it early ^_^ My shrine for those scenarios is going nite and day so dont worry.
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Well, I respect your opinion and respectfully disagree. You may have been good vs most classes in DAOC (on your sham) but I dont beleive that holds true for most classes in DAOC.
So you played a cave sham? Always wanted to play one of those but I always heard they got no group love. My lowby cave sham was a blast though.(doh nvm, you didnt have a cave sham, SHAME on u :P)
Nope 43 aug 31 cave 10 mend ^_^ I was a group shammy, but i spent more time solo than i did in groups since not many elitist groups allowed sin vida members in their groupings, before that i was a mending shammy and that was absolutely hilarious in pvp. If you ever get a chance to try random speccs in pvp try a mending specc its great fun vs people who dont expect a healer to last more than 15 seconds while you're purple friggs with bonuses can last around 40 seconds and while you're zigzagging through them they find you're like a rabid squirrel on speed. ^_^ Cave shammy's were more of a solid dmg dealing characters if i recall and they soloed a bit more than i did since they could drop powerful dots on groups that were fighting and bring the mosh down real fast as they run away gathering the realmpoints. (can't foget to drop the ae diseases before you run after dropping the ae dots though or the healers will heal them, drop the disease and the healers dont heal as much so they have to drop the disease and then drop the dots on everyone in the group which unless pure heal specc could be trouble since group disease cure and poison cures aren't given except at about 30+, i think the current heal specc is high enough to get the group cures though) ^_^
Yeah i noticed that mythic didn't exactly find grouping important when i was playing they were more focused into droppin in solo classes like the vamp and the sort to disrupt the balance. this caused people to buy their expansions if they expected to have fun, most casters never had any problems with vamps though so the nerf didn't affect us that much unless they had ip3 and purge2+. I just dropped ichor 3, pbae diseased, got some range then dropped a bolt and a ae dot or whatever else i had since they usually didn't have more than 20% hp after the ichor, so the dot took out most of them. When i was mending though i didn't have ichor 3 or any of my ra's so i would sprint around till i had bout 2 secs of cast time away from them drop a frig then hammer them while i had the aten's going(yes i had aten's on my noob mending shammy) and i could usually take down a vamp like that without much difficulty, it was normally a close fight though even with frigg on since their HoT could help them a bit, but by 50 it just couldn't keep'em up. :P
p.s. have they nerfed shammy's yet ? thinking back on it the class is op'ed and amazing utility compared to most classes.
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uhhh, what abotu people with different skills . same thing as different classes man.
"Society in every state is a blessing, but government even in its best state is but a necessary evil; in its worst state an intolerable one ..." - Thomas Paine
uhhh, what abotu people with different skills . same thing as different classes man.:-? maybe he means no classes at all?... like everyone is a neutral blank race and you can pick the skills you want and level them like that?. that seems more like a roleplaying overtime kinda game though right? i dont play those kind of games but it seems like one... Classes instill a kind of individuality and give people a feeling of camaraderie in communities of the classes playerbase, dont they ?
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I think were kind of hijacking the thread with all the DAOC talk BUT let me say...
I had a hell of a time trying to kill a vamp and I played a runie. IMO that was easily the most overpowered class that Mythic had ever introduced into the game. And it wasnt just my opinion. Heck, lol I talked to Vamps who agreed with me completely.
But back to the subject, I hope that WAR charachters play better solo vs anyone like WoW is but STILL makes the advantages of playing smart in a group HUGELY outweigh a selfish WoW type of play style. That make sense?
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Well the only thing that would remotely make sense to compare WAR to is DAOC and we really have 0 idea about WAR balancing.
Yes, vamps are a huge problem to fight 1v1, just as a mauler is hugely difficult in 1v1. But they are also rather weak in anything but 1v1.
WoW really took the class balancing too far... I mean 2 sides with the same classes is their excuse... but once again it makes very little sense for a Priest... a clothwearing sissy to be able to kill a warrior wielding a 2h axe and plate armor. It needs to be rock paper scissor to at least some degree.
Except that healers do tend to own everything in PVP games.
I don't think it's possible to balance every class to every other class, if one particular class dominates all the others, then we do have a problem.
What game are YOU playing where the healers owned everything? Other than WoW, which I have said before is not the RPG universe, I have never played a game where I was a solo powerhouse as a healer.
I think the way dark age of camelot was worked fine. The classes that could SOLO well , didnt offer enough to the group(infil,Reaver). The classes that whorked great in keepwarfare and mass combat didnt work well outside of those situations(AoE Rune master,Scout,Animist),. Classes that where sitting ducks without another class where able to work together and make powerhouse groups (Buff Shaman,Healing Cleric, Bubble Runemaster, Song bard)
it all ballanced out in the end and you just played ot your stregnths. I know I had a stealther for when I wanted to solo and a buffing/healing healer for when I wanted to group. I couldnt even kill a monster 3 levels below me as a healer but with a warrior we could kill monsters 5 levels above us.
I think from playing the game so far, that when they say "no heal only" or "namby pamby" healers they mean there is no class that ONLY heals and cant do anything else. Imagine DAoC Cleric and WoW's priest. You can spec a cleric for smite and solo well but your healing will lack, you can spec a wow priest shadow and nuke and solo great but have no healing at all. But the inverse is also true, you CAN spec both classes to support and they will fill those roles quite well. Yet still be able to support their group with the spells they use to solo with. Think DAoC Aug healer. The buffs you used to kill people also benifit your group Like celerity. Or how shadow priest in Warcraft can heal and restore mana using their talents. I think you will see more or all supportive classes play like this and not like the Healer in daoc which was a sitting duck or the Enhancement cleric which had a kickme sign on its back as well.
e.g i am a healer in a PvP fight and see a warrior looking at me with that evil look
so to sum things up unbalanced classes are realistic and fun
MMO wish list:
-Changeable worlds
-Solid non level based game
-Sharks with lasers attached to their heads
Actually i dont mind if someone is a overpowered class and im the underdog. First of all, i like the whole underdog feeling so it makes me try harder, also it gives it more of a challenge and excitement.
You do know Warhammer is based on everyone fights even a healer will be up there attack the monsters and heal partly, so i do believe its possible that a healer can beat a warrior.Actually i dont mind if someone is a overpowered class and im the underdog. First of all, i like the whole underdog feeling so it makes me try harder, also it gives it more of a challenge and excitement.Yay so we are talking about Aug Shammys like my old one! ^_^ This will be great if so! 43 aug 31 cave 10 mend ftw!
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_________________________________________
You can walk the walk but can you talk the talk?
I don't mind if classes aren't terribly balanced for one on one provided that they are balanced for group vs. group, however that does not mean I want one class to pwn everything one vs. one.
Yes, different classes have different roles, so far so good. But in WAR it's been said that it won't be any 100% healer class. If there is no 100% healer class, then the class must have some offensive spells, right?
My opinion is that these offensive spells combined with the ability to heal should make the "healer" class able to kill a fighter. This is after all not illogical.
You probably see my point here?
U can totely see ur point and i completly get where u coming from but if i can present an other senerio. What if lets say a healer cant heal himself or maby some class just has some really good group buffs or major AoE dmg spells? Great in large scale pvp but not quite as good in a 1 on 1 situations?Which FF Character Are You?
I think we are trying to compare classes to not being able to kill another class even if ones skill level is much greater than that of their opponents. My shammy was a primary buffer/support class, but being able to solo on a healer shouldn't be a matter of "well he's a healer so he should have to be in a group if he expects to stand a chance, lets just say healers should be forced to run away and not face people head on if they know whats good for them." As long as no classes damage outweighs that of other classes then even someone playing a healer with the knowledge of pvp tactics to a degree should be able to solo tanks or casters sufficiently, the balance in daoc was fairly smart since even a newbie playing the most overpowered class couldn't dominate(until daoc came out with their op'ed expansion classes that forced players to buy the expansions or risk not standing a chance in an ffa arena). One class in solo that is balanced should have a similar position in groups, even though their priority's change and their overall tactics and playstyle changes altogether, even though someone is great in solo should still have a place in groups, unless they are assassins(though i do believe they too should have the ability to group effectively, say take away stealth while grouped and give them combat abilities that they recieve by speccing in stealth but only have them once they are in a group of 3 or more, sure one or two stealthers is still only one or two assassins but they dont entirely count as a group since their only strength comes from being invisible, people complain about stealth zergs because they can't see a large group of people until its too late, which is where the problem of one person[say a caster or a tank] walking on a bridge looking for other soloer's is instantly ambushed by a large number of people out of nowhere, the beauty of one person soloing with 8 man's in the area is that you can usually feel the lagspikes when they hit the area and you can find a safe spot or at least at like you belong there when they float by and perhaps stay alive, thus keepin the balance of the overall playfield.
Just my 2cents in this discussion. ^(^_^)><(^_^)^ Rawr!
Sorry my thinking is very hard to sort through im not great at putting thoughts into words, tried the best i could though.
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Yes, everyone should have some sort of use in groups other than simple DPS or only Heals. But a Shaman is a healer/DPSer.. as the actual Healer class is a healer/cc. A Healer can't do a damn thing solo, shaman can do a lot. Each class should not be able to kill every other class. Like in WoW they overly balance every class, every class can destroy the other one with "possible" ease (note the game is still not balanced well) that's why that game isn't really an RPG, it's an RPG if you consider the possible roles to be all the same and everyone is equally capable as someone else in every situation. True balance is comparing an army of the opposing faction's classes, not 1v1. If you break the army apart the balance is skewed(skewwed?? w/e). You take a warrior out the mix of the army and he will be able to beat a healer class. However any class that isn't able to kill an attacker should have the ability (or some sort of chance) to somehow avoid death. Like the midgard Healer being able to stun and mez and then run away with his run buff.
well i dunno if that's really a response to what you said it's just more of my take on balance.
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Yes, everyone should have some sort of use in groups other than simple DPS or only Heals. But a Shaman is a healer/DPSer.. as the actual Healer class is a healer/cc. A Healer can't do a damn thing solo, shaman can do a lot. Each class should not be able to kill every other class. Like in WoW they overly balance every class, every class can destroy the other one with "possible" ease (note the game is still not balanced well) that's why that game isn't really an RPG, it's an RPG if you consider the possible roles to be all the same and everyone is equally capable as someone else in every situation. True balance is comparing an army of the opposing faction's classes, not 1v1. If you break the army apart the balance is skewed(skewwed?? w/e). You take a warrior out the mix of the army and he will be able to beat a healer class. However any class that isn't able to kill an attacker should have the ability (or some sort of chance) to somehow avoid death. Like the midgard Healer being able to stun and mez and then run away with his run buff.
well i dunno if that's really a response to what you said it's just more of my take on balance.
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sounds good but dont forget that a shaman isn't known for heals, his heals are less that half that of what healers can heal for without even going full mend in their specc line. shamans are known for their buffs, remember the three realms has 1 primary healer and 1 primary buff hybrid. with alb being the "exception" with a healer/buffer a buffer/melee hybrid and a healer/melee/dps caster similar to the shammy. daoc has a very tricky balance that works out overall in the broad view of pvp in the game which keeps people coming back to the game, at least back before it started acting like blizzard and giving people each realm a fotm class in the expansions. good point thoughGamer Profile : http://www.guildcafe.com/member/Icucme