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Now I know why Sigil hardly visits anymore
Balisidar
Member Posts: 164
Well it looks like Brad doesn't like what many of us have to say about his game over here. It is true that the signal-noise ration over here is a bit high, however we still have some pretty engaging discussions. Many of us also have some very harsh criticisms of the game though. I am glad that Cylus shows himself around here (although he hasn't posted lately). Seems like he's the only one that can handle the heat around here.
One thing I DO like about this site though is this. Most of us are harsh critics of MMORPG's and want them to be held to higher standards. Brad can make all the excuses and apologies that he wants but it makes no damn bit of difference.
Show us results. Hard figures. Not just fluff and pie-in-the-sky.
Maybe then more people will be interested in your game Mr. Mcquaid.
Quote:
I'm posting here at someone's request and will give it a shot. That said, I do agree with you about the signal to noise ratio -- it's almost as bad as at mmorpg.com *sigh* |
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| reply to this post Find all posts by Aradune. Find all posts in "Brad is back!". |
And I also wish you all the luck in the world.....your going to need it.
Never be afraid of choices. More choices are always good things.
Comments
Just a quick FYI...
Sigil stops by all the time. I'd guess they just don't see much to comment on...
The problem is that the Haters insist on taking over. The game is far from perfect, but many are enjoying it, and it would be nice if the Haters backed off a bit and let both sides of the discussion surface. That said, there is no point to the "Vanguard is DOOMED!!!!" posts, other then to feed the poster's ego.
I'll start my own SWG... with Black Jack... and Hookers!!!
In fact, forget the SWG!!!!
For years those of us on the Sigil boards begged Sigil to stop letting the Vanbois flame everyone who didn't want the most uber, hardcore game imaginable. And for years Brad ignored those requests for moderation and let them flame us and tell everyone "go back to WoW." So we did lol, and his subscription numbers have paid the price for it.
So Brad, now you don't like what you're reading? Well that's just too damn bad.
EQ1, EQ2, SWG, SWTOR, GW, GW2 CoH, CoV, FFXI, WoW, CO, War,TSW and a slew of free trials and beta tests
Certainly the noise/signal ratio can't be the main criteria that decides where and how often Brad posts. If it were, then for aforementioned reasons, Brad shouldn't have a problem posting here.
But the fact of things is, Brad wants to sway public opinion of his game to something favorable, or at the very least do damage control. fohguild.com is a good place to do it; just look how much we quote the posts over here. The affiliate sites do the same, so why not just continue to post there since what's said will spread like wildfire anyway?
Anyway, I know a lot of trash gets posted here, but I like to believe that our little corner of the internet has some good, constructive conversations sometimes. All things considered, we aren't even CLOSE to being as rude to one another and to the Sigil developers as fohguild.com is. So I don't buy that noise/ratio complaint mess.
tell me i misread that. because an entire year of bugginess and "we're getting better" is um, well, foolish. sort of like not having your own official forums, but pawning that off on fansites. the lack of official forums is a major indicator... and since they have no official forums, now sigil can pick and choose which sites kiss their butt the most and decide to only post where they'll be praised?
i really want to love this game and try it out. but um, that would mean if i DID like it, then i'd be supporting the above behaviour. as craptastic as i feel wow is, at least they have their own official type forums.
could we please get correspondent writers and moderators, on the eve forum at mmorpg.com, who are well-versed on eve-online and aren't just passersby pushing buttons? pretty please?
Sigil should just suck it up and get an official forum if they want to control the content of posts. I think it's a tad corny that Brad publicly calls upon moderators to deal with users who have an unfavorable opinion of the game and advises people against purchasing it. Like, damn, exactly who is lacking in the ethics department between a CEO that's telling would-be consumers his game will work as intended only when hardware catches up to the game sometime in the unknown future, and the consumer that's telling another person not to bother because the game isn't freakin' finished, and the hardware requirements printed on the box are no where near sufficient enough to play the game smoothly with a high FPS, with or without digging into .ini files.
All it reveals to me is that, despite that much toted "apology" from Brad, he's still not ready to stop peeking at the reality of things from between his fingers, and stop hiding behind his hands. Just as sure as he's trying to get back all of those players that were told "to go back to WoW", and he did nothing to defend at the time, he's going to regret not changing his tune a little towards his detractors.
Brad should understand there's two sides to that whole "viral marketing" coin he's been toying with. It's very easy to create bad word of mouth, and Sigil already has enough. Is it really in their best interest that he goes and publicly complains about detractors, no matter how subjective they are? What gets me is, most of the detractors complain about the same problems that he fesses up to himself, such as the performance issues and the need for "better hardware" to fix a host of Vanguard's annoyances and problems. Simply because Brad addresses those problems and annoyances in a humble, inconsequential way; should he expect his consumers to do the same?
I don't think there's anything wrong at all with a person who's completely devoted themself to getting others to not buy a game. The problem isn't the detractor, the problem is that when a person assumes that role, they actually have a whole bunker of ammunition provided by Brad's loose-lips and the reality of Vanguard to use against the game.
Which brings me back to the point that Brad isn't yet facing to reality of the situation. He's always speaking of the future, 2008, 2009, 2010...but what of 2007? What of this month, tomorrow or three days from now? it's not like people are saying "Don't buy this game in the year of 2009.", they're saying don't buy this mess now. Brad himself attempts to sell the game based on it's "potential" and what's to come in the future. Whenever he mentions the present, all he addresses are problems and things they need to fix.
I'm sorry but, Vanguard seems to be a case example of the kind of game you DO advise people from buying. It's not even a case where a person might be entirely too subjective to give credible reasons as to why one shouldn't make the purchase; Brad himself states several times a week exactly why one shouldn't. That kind of thinking in people won't be rectified by a call to arms from moderators, it'll come from actually facing the reality that the game isn't worth buying and piling on incentives to get people to wade through this time period. Otherwise, they won't. As to what incentives and what measure of action to take, that's up to the CEO to decide. But I imagine it's a tad more difficult than puppy-eyed posts and playing victim to circumstances.
Sigil stops by all the time. I'd guess they just don't see much to comment on..."
How you know they stop by all the time?
RIP Orc Choppa
Most likely, they don't have time to focus on more than a few forums, and MMORPG.com isn't on the list since its not dedicated solely to VG.
But you are right...there really isn't much more they can say.... they just need to get busy and fix up the game as quickly as they can....
"True friends stab you in the front." | Oscar Wilde
"I need to finish" - Christian Wolff: The Accountant
Just trying to live long enough to play a new, released MMORPG, playing New Worlds atm
Fools find no pleasure in understanding but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV
Don't just play games, inhabit virtual worlds™
"This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon
I could care less whether he or anyone else from Sigil posts here. If they had listened to the very vocal majority of people on their own Beta forumns they would have known how bad the game is.
Money talks and BS walks. Sigil is full of BS and the money is not just walking but running away from them.
I lurk and am happy to help if I can, key word being "if"
Most likely, they don't have time to focus on more than a few forums, and MMORPG.com isn't on the list since its not dedicated solely to VG.
But you are right...there really isn't much more they can say.... they just need to get busy and fix up the game as quickly as they can....
See above...
Oh, and this (thanks OP of this in this forum, made my life easy
):
Yesterday, 04:11 PM - by Aradune
Talk about elitist
FoH is less of a guild site now and more of a general MMOG dicussion site, one of the largest, and this has been true for some time. I use it and other general boards (like mmorpg.com) to answer general questions and get the word out about the game.
I try to post on affiliate sites as well, but usually the questions are very specific and so the devs post more on the affiliate sites (Cylus, Tagad, etc.).
I'll start my own SWG... with Black Jack... and Hookers!!!
In fact, forget the SWG!!!!
I'll start my own SWG... with Black Jack... and Hookers!!!
In fact, forget the SWG!!!!
The Haters were once loyal Vanguard followers and players. They got screwed over by misleading upcoming game reviews and awesome game mechanics in which 60% of them were never implemented in the game (and more than half of that never will according to Sigil).
I think these "haters" has every right to be pissed. If Sigil feels uncomfortable coming here, then that is their perogative.
People who have to create conspiracy and hate threads to further a cause lacks in intellectual comprehension of diversity.
The Haters were once loyal Vanguard followers and players. They got screwed over by misleading upcoming game reviews and awesome game mechanics in which 60% of them were never implemented in the game (and more than half of that never will according to Sigil).
I think these "haters" has every right to be pissed. If Sigil feels uncomfortable coming here, then that is their perogative.
Haters DO NOT have the right to take over every conversation, and shout down others. Period.
I've been frustrated by this game, and been honest with it. That happens. If all you can to is bash the game without contributing anything of worth, you should leave. If you want to debate & discuss, let's do it.
I'll start my own SWG... with Black Jack... and Hookers!!!
In fact, forget the SWG!!!!
The Haters were once loyal Vanguard followers and players. They got screwed over by misleading upcoming game reviews and awesome game mechanics in which 60% of them were never implemented in the game (and more than half of that never will according to Sigil).
I think these "haters" has every right to be pissed. If Sigil feels uncomfortable coming here, then that is their perogative.
Haters DO NOT have the right to take over every conversation, and shout down others. Period.
I've been frustrated by this game, and been honest with it. That happens. If all you can to is bash the game without contributing anything of worth, you should leave. If you want to debate & discuss, let's do it.
You can always report a post; if you think a post is not appropriate or something. With that said, , if Sigil and /or Brad are not happy about how this forum or any other community forum, are managed...all they have to is to create their own forum , so they can do whatever they want …
Sig Creator
The Haters were once loyal Vanguard followers and players. They got screwed over by misleading upcoming game reviews and awesome game mechanics in which 60% of them were never implemented in the game (and more than half of that never will according to Sigil).
I think these "haters" has every right to be pissed. If Sigil feels uncomfortable coming here, then that is their perogative.
Haters DO NOT have the right to take over every conversation, and shout down others. Period.
I've been frustrated by this game, and been honest with it. That happens. If all you can to is bash the game without contributing anything of worth, you should leave. If you want to debate & discuss, let's do it.
I don't hate the game. Hate is a strong word. I am very disappointed in the game, yes. However, we, as forum posters or even as Players do not have the power to change the game direction. All we can do is point out the flaws. If you want to call that "hate" then so be it. Telling them everything is fine is much more disingenuous as it does not help them correct things.
The Sigil Team is down in the weeds of the code and perhaps are not able to see the overall picture. They can only get that picture from listening to the Players. They are probably playing on Uber machines that are right next to the actual server. Therefore, they can not understand how freaking frustrating it is to cross a chunk line and lose my invis or go into 1st person view. Are those game breaking problems? No, but they contribute to my dissatisfaction with the game.
EQ2 was bashed when it launched and that Team was able to make a gem of a game. Sigil may or may not be able to change direction. Only time will tell. But if they listen to those people who are throwing candy up their arses is not going to help. Those posts that say there are no performance problems, no grouping problems, and that their Guild is increasing are simply BS.
Even if you think my post is BS you have to admit that this game is not doing just fine and is in danger of just being another blip in the history of MMORPGs like SWG or Horizons.
Edit: The only thing Sigil needs to do to understand the problems with the game is get out of the Sigil office. Go home. Play on a computer they pick up from Best Buy and try to make progress. Do not bring your friends or other Devs with you. Pick up the game off the shelf at Best Buy and buy a relatively good gaming rig from there and play. Then come and tell us if you have any problems and are having any fun.
CONTRIBUTE INTO THE GAMING INDUSTRY! STOP PAYING FOR BORING COPYCATS, UNFINISHED BUGFESTS AND CRANKY JUNKWARE. BE A RESPONSIBLE GAMER!
Critics & Haters are two different things, just like Fanbois & Fans are. Critics are welcome. I consider myself a Critic & a Fan. I like the game, but I'll be the first to tell you what I think is wrong with it. Performance is a joke, Graphic errors, early launch, CTD's, LAG due to build, missing material, bugged quests, a TON of play bugs, Chunk issues up the %^&... I could go on, and in detail... and there are NO excuses for launching the game like this IMO, period. They know that, and actually understand opinions like that.
That said, I still enjoy it. Also, after being in Beta for a long time and having an open dialog with the Sigil Team, I feel they get a bad wrap. They know how I feel about the state of the game, I've told them myself. I, however, believe it can be corrected and improved. Will they disappoint me? Maybe, but so far they've been great. I refuse to let my dis-trust of SOE affect my opinions of Sigil, especially when they've been great to deal with.
Since I enjoy the game, I'll talk about that as well. I fun, and I'm glad to have a game I like this much again. Maybe I'm used to poor performance since I'm a SWG Refugee... who knows... but I enjoy playing, as do our entire guild.
I'll start my own SWG... with Black Jack... and Hookers!!!
In fact, forget the SWG!!!!
The Haters were once loyal Vanguard followers and players. They got screwed over by misleading upcoming game reviews and awesome game mechanics in which 60% of them were never implemented in the game (and more than half of that never will according to Sigil).
I think these "haters" has every right to be pissed. If Sigil feels uncomfortable coming here, then that is their perogative.
Haters DO NOT have the right to take over every conversation, and shout down others. Period.
I've been frustrated by this game, and been honest with it. That happens. If all you can to is bash the game without contributing anything of worth, you should leave. If you want to debate & discuss, let's do it.
I don't hate the game. Hate is a strong word. I am very disappointed in the game, yes. However, we, as forum posters or even as Players do not have the power to change the game direction. All we can do is point out the flaws. If you want to call that "hate" then so be it. Telling them everything is fine is much more disingenuous as it does not help them correct things.
The Sigil Team is down in the weeds of the code and perhaps are not able to see the overall picture. They can only get that picture from listening to the Players. They are probably playing on Uber machines that are right next to the actual server. Therefore, they can not understand how freaking frustrating it is to cross a chunk line and lose my invis or go into 1st person view. Are those game breaking problems? No, but they contribute to my dissatisfaction with the game.
EQ2 was bashed when it launched and that Team was able to make a gem of a game. Sigil may or may not be able to change direction. Only time will tell. But if they listen to those people who are throwing candy up their arses is not going to help. Those posts that say there are no performance problems, no grouping problems, and that their Guild is increasing are simply BS.
Even if you think my post is BS you have to admit that this game is not doing just fine and is in danger of just being another blip in the history of MMORPGs like SWG or Horizons.
Edit: The only thing Sigil needs to do to understand the problems with the game is get out of the Sigil office. Go home. Play on a computer they pick up from Best Buy and try to make progress. Do not bring your friends or other Devs with you. Pick up the game off the shelf at Best Buy and buy a relatively good gaming rig from there and play. Then come and tell us if you have any problems and are having any fun.
VERY well said. I wouldn't view anything you said here as being "Hating". There are quite a few things I think we would agree on about the game. Haters, IMO, are people that refuse to let anything good said about the game, and Troll posts without contributing to them.
This post contributes.
I'll start my own SWG... with Black Jack... and Hookers!!!
In fact, forget the SWG!!!!
But what exactly are the critics critiquing? They arent even playing the game. When posters who are playing say anything positive they are instantly scorned and told they are in denial. Well let me see, who am I going to believe; the guy who hasnt got a clue or the guy who backs up his opinion with $15 per month. Tough one no?
If I came here looking for information, I'd mostly find a lot of "sux" and "lols" - on many of the game forums not just VG's. And yet the OP states rather arrogantly "One thing I DO like about this site though is this. Most of us are harsh critics of MMORPG's and want them to be held to higher standards."
I'll tell you, that comment sure had me laughing. The General Forum should be renamed "Free P2P discussions" and unfortunately the plethora of posts asking "Is this game free?" seep into every individual game forum too. IF there is one underlying reason that MMOs are routinely chucked out sub-par then blame the majority of MMO players (who probably put Blizzards WoW 8 million to shame) who will never shove their hands in their pockets to actually pay for quality even when it is made available to them.
I also think the reason why many dont beleive they come by alot, is becuase they arent willing to speak.
The reason they dont say alot, is they know they wont likely get away with the useless hype ,spin and attempts to sell their apologies.Thats of coyrse in addition to other reasonsa like, they simple dont want to talk to their prospective customer base.Its easier for them to hide,if they stay quiet.
Dev teams are in the mmos industry, the mmo itselfs worst enemy.Poor ,poor I need you money Brad is a prime example.
They come by, but they dont speak because they know they cant control the responses people will have to their inane chatter, and arent willing to see the simple truth that their product never should have been foisted upon their prospective customer base.
Personally , i wish theyed come by and speak every day, multiple times, and try to explain their point of view.I firnly believe that each visit they make would put yet another nail in the coffin of the hero worship shown devs.
And another nail in the coffins of the lame design companies that infest the MMO industry.
And both need to pass from the MMO industry while it still has some meager amount of respect left.
100k subsribers - HAHAHHAHAHHAHAHAHAHHAHAAHHAHAAH
200k subscribers - HAHAHAHHAHAHHAHAHAHHAHAHHAHAHAH
400k subscribers- HAHAHHAHAHHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHHAHAHAHA
"Those who embrace low performance and low standards will forever accomplish them" .Kinda sums up the Dev teams in the MMO industry nicely.
But what exactly are the critics critiquing? They arent even playing the game. When posters who are playing say anything positive they are instantly scorned and told they are in denial. Well let me see, who am I going to believe; the guy who hasnt got a clue or the guy who backs up his opinion with $15 per month. Tough one no?
If I came here looking for information, I'd mostly find a lot of "sux" and "lols" - on many of the game forums not just VG's. And yet the OP states rather arrogantly "One thing I DO like about this site though is this. Most of us are harsh critics of MMORPG's and want them to be held to higher standards."
I'll tell you, that comment sure had me laughing. The General Forum should be renamed "Free P2P discussions" and unfortunately the plethora of posts asking "Is this game free?" seep into every individual game forum too. IF there is one underlying reason that MMOs are routinely chucked out sub-par then blame the majority of MMO players (who probably put Blizzards WoW 8 million to shame) who will never shove their hands in their pockets to actually pay for quality even when it is made available to them.
Exactly whose fault is it that they are not playing anymore ?
Why should players who still play the game be listened to, while those who spent their money
and were disappointed not be allowed to post ? Didn't their initial investment entitle them to
express their opinion ? Look at the list of planned enhancements and tell me that performance
is no longer an issue. Then explain to me why those who still complain about performance are
not entitled to say anything.
Players already pay for quality. They vote for quality with their wallets. If the game has quality play,
the money comes in. If there is no quality, they take a step back until there is quality. It seems
ludicrous to think that anyone should have to pay for a product while quality is retrofitted in. The
American auto market tried to blame the American consumer when they bought Japanese in the
70s and 80s. The tactic failed miserably and it didn't work until American companies started
building quality cars. The MMO market is no different. If and when the quality improves, large
numbers of customers will come back and take a second look.
Customers are not masochists with money burning holes in their wallets.
Kari, this is just an example, but do you see what I mean? What can you discuss with this mindset? Or with someone who claims that the game has been thoroughly fixed now? Or that his server is packed with people and he can find a group in the snap of fingers? etc. etc.
CONTRIBUTE INTO THE GAMING INDUSTRY! STOP PAYING FOR BORING COPYCATS, UNFINISHED BUGFESTS AND CRANKY JUNKWARE. BE A RESPONSIBLE GAMER!