personally i dont mind if some classes are better then others, lets take the tired old example of wow, now imho hunters should be anti rogue, because of all of the anti rogue weponary they posses (flare/mark/stealth detection ect.) and this is all well and good because a hunter normally has a hell of a time trying to kill shadow priests (hell who don't) and warlocks and warlocks get beat on by druids, and it goes round in circles as it should, now if it comes to my pet hate in wow MAGE's i personally had trouble killing mages with any class having 4 pre TBC top levels (hunter,warlock,warrior,shaman) and a variety of twinks and mid level pvp toons i could never be arsed to roll a mage but i could never kill them and hate them immensely, and dont let me start on bubbledins i just hope that there are no seriously overpowered classes in WAR and i also hope that mythic dont pile love after love on a class (e.g. blizzard and paladins)
i expect there to be one class that totally overpowers my class when we get to WAR but i also expect that class to have somthing that overpowers it which really leads to good solid team play, hope this made sense
Remember that Mythic isn't Blizzard. Blizzard isn't making this game. Blizzard is a FOTM caterer. Mythic makes their games with the goal in mind to keep all classes balanced. Blizzard does not give a crap. As long as there is money to be made Blizzard will do anything it takes. Mythic tries to stick to the overall feeling of the community and can see the fact that the people who plays its games are adults overall instead of children like Blizzard's.
Originally posted by Ocedia Remember that Mythic isn't Blizzard. Blizzard isn't making this game. Blizzard is a FOTM caterer. Mythic makes their games with the goal in mind to keep all classes balanced. Blizzard does not give a crap. As long as there is money to be made Blizzard will do anything it takes. Mythic tries to stick to the overall feeling of the community and can see the fact that the people who plays its games are adults overall instead of children like Blizzard's.
Keep telling yourself that....
Or go find out some facts and come back when you know what's really going on. Cheerio.
Played so far: 9Dragons, AO, AC, AC2, CoX, DAoC, DF, DnL, DR, DDO, Ent, EvE, EQ, EQ2, FoMK, FFO, Fury, GW, HG:L, HZ, L1, L2, M59, MU, NC1, NC2, PS, PT, R:O, RF:O, RYL, Ryzom, SL, SB, SW:G, TR, TCoS, MX:O, UO, VG, WAR, WoW... It all sucked.
IMO, I don't think people expect all classes to be equal in 1v1. I do think people expect every class to be good at something. I believe this is where many games go wrong. There are just some classes in games that are totally worthless, and a waste of time to play.
Funny that people are trying to claim Mythic does a great job. Their flagship MMO is filled with classes that no one plays, and really a game that has been dying a fast painful death since they ruined RvR by making casters way overpowered.
Mythic was doing a great job until they sold out and became desperate for money, about 5 months after SI. Came apparent after Si though when the SI classes, namely BD's, were obviously op'ed. Took them about 3 years for them to address that, game was going downhill before they did though. Noone is saying that mythic is perfect, but for 4 years they did a really good job, the suggestions boosted the overall game and things were looking fine. Patches addressing issues about every week or so and they were clearly trying to make the game better to meet the rising expectations of the community at large and new players they were wishing to attract. How bout you make an MMO and see how many people who have never played it and taken in the overall experience of the game flame about it for no reason. ^_^ Thanks.
Originally posted by Sramota
Keep telling yourself that....
Or go find out some facts and come back when you know what's really going on.
Cheerio.
There are many positives and negatives about mythic, dont tell me i have no idea what im talking about out of the blue without telling me why you think that.
I believe in having a perfectly balanced system BUT that is impossible. In this game, it has been made very clear that everyone, regardless of being a healer or not will have offensive capability (ie Warrior Priest gains heals and buffs from striking down his foes). What I really want is a game where every class stands an equal chance of beating every other class one on one. No class should dominate another, but instead, a player who uses his abilities to the better of his enemy will win. Sooner or later a player will mess up, a player will miss an opportunity to use something or not counter an attack quickly enough, miss an open door, and those players who are fast enough, quick witted enough, and know their skills and abilities, will win. I don't think players should find themselves in a situation in which they are destined to lose based purely on what class they picked to play. Just my thoughts...probably a pipe dream.
[Here's a list of all the games I've played and/or my computer specs to show how much more seasoned or technologically advanced I am than you.]
I've always been biased against 1v1 fights, because I don't believe they accomplish anything. Group vs Group/Guild vs. Guild fights have always been more fun to me, and the main reason for that is I would rather accomplish big things in game with a guild, than be known as a great 1v1 fighter.
Yes, there are games out there with "Hero" classes, where each class has it's own player who is the "best", but even then those fights don't mean anything unless you duel everyone of the same class who wishes to compete for it. Dueling other classes to become the top player at your class doesn't make much sense(Play Lineage 2, and see exactly how much of a joke the hero classes there really are.), so there really is no balance issue worth discussing there either with 1v1s.
This game is all about WAR, two opposing armies fighting against each other. Class unbalance is not as important as "Build" unbalance. I am more worry about certain team build would own all other team builds.
The following elements should also play an important role of determining the outcome of a battle:
Terrain
Weather
Army morale
Team composition/specialization
Weapons (including hand-helded weapons, stationary heavy weapons and siege weapons)
I voted for balance but a slight "unbalance" would be okey to, after all it's a rpg many things need to be calculated in when balancing. I saw a bunch here comparing how stuff worked (works?) in WoW but that comparison isn't that good, WoW is mainly a PvE game with some PvP thrown at it. Classes is mostly balanced for PvE , therefore mages need to make that high damage to be able to nuke those big bad raid bosses down, this ofc make their damage a little to high versus warrior (doesn't mean thay are op though).
WAR concentrates itself of the PvP aspects of the genre and will be balanced for just that, PvE is second hand, so I strongly believe that this "problem" will be more or less no problem at all :-).
Reality is merely an illusion, albeit a very persistent one. - " Albert Einstein"
I dont mind the idea of some classes being better in toe to toe engagements, so long as the underlying game mechanics are balanced across all the classes. As and example, If one class has hard CC/movement impairing effects, then all the classes should have some form of hard CC/movement impairing effects. Its not hard to do from a development standpoint, it just has to be done at release so you dont end up with the patch/buff/nerf/rinse/repeat thing happening constantly like in WoW. Once you get started down that road, you can NEVER achieve parity in the eyes of the player base.
I dont mind the idea of some classes being better in toe to toe engagements, so long as the underlying game mechanics are balanced across all the classes. As and example, If one class has hard CC/movement impairing effects, then all the classes should have some form of hard CC/movement impairing effects. Its not hard to do from a development standpoint, it just has to be done at release so you dont end up with the patch/buff/nerf/rinse/repeat thing happening constantly like in WoW. Once you get started down that road, you can NEVER achieve parity in the eyes of the player base.
Hmm i might have understood u wrong now but arent u saying that u want all classes to have everything?
Complete balance isn't possible and isn't necissary. Usually it's a rock/paper/scissors scenario with class balance. Class X owns class Y who owns Z who owns X. The point of RvR though is to minimize the 1v1 egofests and focus on the larger battle. No stealth will go a long way in subduing the typical solo l337 rogue player common in most fantasy MMOs. WAR should be balanced on a realm basis, not a class basis. I'd even go as far as saying they could give major realm-wide buffs to the underpopulated realms if DoWs aren't cutting it. So no, I don't believe class parity is necissary for a balanced game.
I agree with Dreadlich, Its great to pwn some classes, even chance on others, but it wouldnt be fun doing that all time if ya didnt have to worry when faced with a class that could pwn you too to bring you back down to earth.
Hmm i might have understood u wrong now but arent u saying that u want all classes to have everything?
Wendo, its not that every class should be able to do everything, just that those most crucial of pvp abilities like spell interupts/CC/snares, call them pvp force multipliers, should be worked into every classes repritoire of abilities. A healer is still not going to be on par damage wise with a melee dps class, but on the same note, melees are going to have little/no self/party healing. The classes are still distinct, but have access to the limited pool of pvpcentric abilities that we've all come to know. Hope that clears up what i was saying.
I don't really mind class imbalance. That is: in a group game. WAR is shaping up to be a group game because of the RvR, not the PvP. This means that victory is only achievable through group tactics and strategy. The system of the so-called 'character collision ' is going to add an extra dimension to this group work. The more heavily armoured characters can now block the way to members of the group (instead of having the enemy just walking through the defender like in most games) who need to be protected at that very moment of time. So class imbalance is reduced by group combat it would seem(at least I hope).
Hmm i might have understood u wrong now but arent u saying that u want all classes to have everything?
Wendo, its not that every class should be able to do everything, just that those most crucial of pvp abilities like spell interupts/CC/snares, call them pvp force multipliers, should be worked into every classes repritoire of abilities. A healer is still not going to be on par damage wise with a melee dps class, but on the same note, melees are going to have little/no self/party healing. The classes are still distinct, but have access to the limited pool of pvpcentric abilities that we've all come to know. Hope that clears up what i was saying. Kk i hear u. Even tough i get where u coming from i peronally always liket classes to be as distinct as possible. The thing that really makes me like mmos is that u have to use the different classes to make different things and by that making a strong unit. I would gladly play a class whit only a lot of debuffing abilitys or somting like that and let my guildmats handle the dmg and the healing and so on
But if we all where the same we wouldent have much to debate and the time to WAR release would feel even longer
Yeah Gorod, the collision will be a form of CC for tanks. Unlike other games with collision where the toons bounce and slide off of each other, I've read the result will be more like sticking. I'm thinking of linemen on a football team. Think of it as a PvP form of taunt. Maybe at higher ranks you can increase your stickiness (root) or the area you can affect (AE Snare).
MMOs Played: EQ 1&2, DAoC, SWG, Planetside, WoW, GW, CoX, DDO, EVE, Vanguard, TR Playing: WAR Awaiting 40k Online and wishing for Battletech Online
Absolutely, Wend, intelligent discourse is the true mark fo gentlemen (or ladies). I understand the current trend in class based systems due to their familiarity and ease of understanding, but as a LONG time gamer, i personally prefer skill based systems that allow more character diversity. In a perfect world, games will have hybrid systems that are easy for first timers to learn, but have enough depth of skill to appeal to experienced gamers and allow all players to eventually tune their characters to their exact playstyle. We'll get there eventually, of this, i have no doubt.
Absolutely, Wend, intelligent discourse is the true mark fo gentlemen (or ladies). I understand the current trend in class based systems due to their familiarity and ease of understanding, but as a LONG time gamer, i personally prefer skill based systems that allow more character diversity. In a perfect world, games will have hybrid systems that are easy for first timers to learn, but have enough depth of skill to appeal to experienced gamers and allow all players to eventually tune their characters to their exact playstyle. We'll get there eventually, of this, i have no doubt.
Well if a game manage to provide such a large skillbase that ppl actually would play really diffent chars whitout having to lock themself into a certain class i would be all in for that. But still i doubt that it will come a game like that in a few years. The mmo market is still growing so much that the developers dont really have to make some extrem new changes to sell a otherwise good solid mmo.
Let's take the classic idea of warrior vs. caster, EX Warrior Priest vs. Magus. The Warrior Priest comes in swinging, but the Magus nails him good a few times on the way in, so once the Priest closes he's injured. The Magus can't take hits from a hammer well, though, so one of a few things can happen now. Both are injured.
1. The Magus pulls off some sort of Chaos control or slow attack, rides his Disk out of range, and pummels the Priest with one last volley of spells.
2. The Priest resists a spell or two and smashes the Magus's face in.
3. The Magus dodges an attack or two and fireballs the Priest in the face.
4. The Magus starts doing enough damage to finish the Priest, but the Priest stuns the Magus and finishes him.
If the two players know how to use thier separate abilities well, the fight can go either way. And, of course if it's not a 1v1, it's entirely different. The Priest might have to deal with a Chosen or a Marauder on the way in, but he might have an Engineer or a Bright Wizard to go toe to toe with the Magus at range.
Let's try a "healer" say, Rune Priest, vs. a Black Orc.
The Black Orc charges the Rune Priest (as Orcs are prone to doing). The Priest uses some manner of damage absorption rune and the Orc's first attack doesn't do much. The Priest responds in kind, attacking with a rune-enhanced weapon. The Orc is tough and armored, has many other attacks, though, and the next few badly injure the dwarf. The Priest heals himself with a rune, but by this point there really isn't any chance of the Priest winning. Here the Priest, a clearly defined grouping class, is beaten by the Black Orc, a devastaing melee solo warrior. Now, if the Orc had to deal with an Ironbreaker here, he'd be in trouble.
From what I've seen of the game so far it looks like it'll be pretty damn balanced. DaoC may not have done that well in its later years, burt Mythic aren't stupid. I somehow doubt they'd take on the monumental task of balancing 32 classes without having some decent plan for it.
Everythings standard pattern! This is the Imperial fething Guard! Standard pattern boots, standard pattern mess tins, standard pattern bodybags! Im a standard pattern infantryman, youre a standard pattern no-neck, and any second now my standard pattern fist is going to send your nose bone back into your very sub-standard pattern brain! Sergeant Ceglan Varl
Games Workshop actually developed a pretty solid hybrid system years ago with their Warhammer Fantasy Roleplaying game. In that game characters would choose a starting career and were offered stat increases and later, advanced careers they could advance to. With enough xp, characters could hop from career to career gather skills and stat bonuses over time. I always thought it would be a good basis for an rpg engine. It will be interesting to see if any of that system was implemented with WAR.
I like and totally agree with mythic Devs and their vision of game balance. I have played classes that where overpowered and lived through nerfs and total 180 directions they have taken classes. In the end , for the sake of game balance I never had a problem with what they did. I guess since I am a little more open minded since I work in the gaming industry I have a non normal look at things.
Some devs you vibe with and like what they call balanced (a priest can only heal and can never deal damage)
Some devs you do not vibe with (priest are nuking machines and can also tank)
Comments
personally i dont mind if some classes are better then others, lets take the tired old example of wow, now imho hunters should be anti rogue, because of all of the anti rogue weponary they posses (flare/mark/stealth detection ect.) and this is all well and good because a hunter normally has a hell of a time trying to kill shadow priests (hell who don't) and warlocks and warlocks get beat on by druids, and it goes round in circles as it should, now if it comes to my pet hate in wow MAGE's i personally had trouble killing mages with any class having 4 pre TBC top levels (hunter,warlock,warrior,shaman) and a variety of twinks and mid level pvp toons i could never be arsed to roll a mage but i could never kill them and hate them immensely, and dont let me start on bubbledins
i just hope that there are no seriously overpowered classes in WAR and i also hope that mythic dont pile love after love on a class (e.g. blizzard and paladins)
i expect there to be one class that totally overpowers my class when we get to WAR but i also expect that class to have somthing that overpowers it which really leads to good solid team play, hope this made sense
Gamer Profile : http://www.guildcafe.com/member/Icucme
Or go find out some facts and come back when you know what's really going on.
Cheerio.
Played so far: 9Dragons, AO, AC, AC2, CoX, DAoC, DF, DnL, DR, DDO, Ent, EvE, EQ, EQ2, FoMK, FFO, Fury, GW, HG:L, HZ, L1, L2, M59, MU, NC1, NC2, PS, PT, R:O, RF:O, RYL, Ryzom, SL, SB, SW:G, TR, TCoS, MX:O, UO, VG, WAR, WoW...
It all sucked.
Funny that people are trying to claim Mythic does a great job. Their flagship MMO is filled with classes that no one plays, and really a game that has been dying a fast painful death since they ruined RvR by making casters way overpowered.
Mythic was doing a great job until they sold out and became desperate for money, about 5 months after SI. Came apparent after Si though when the SI classes, namely BD's, were obviously op'ed. Took them about 3 years for them to address that, game was going downhill before they did though. Noone is saying that mythic is perfect, but for 4 years they did a really good job, the suggestions boosted the overall game and things were looking fine. Patches addressing issues about every week or so and they were clearly trying to make the game better to meet the rising expectations of the community at large and new players they were wishing to attract. How bout you make an MMO and see how many people who have never played it and taken in the overall experience of the game flame about it for no reason. ^_^ Thanks.
There are many positives and negatives about mythic, dont tell me i have no idea what im talking about out of the blue without telling me why you think that.
Gamer Profile : http://www.guildcafe.com/member/Icucme
[Here's a list of all the games I've played and/or my computer specs to show how much more seasoned or technologically advanced I am than you.]
Yes, there are games out there with "Hero" classes, where each class has it's own player who is the "best", but even then those fights don't mean anything unless you duel everyone of the same class who wishes to compete for it. Dueling other classes to become the top player at your class doesn't make much sense(Play Lineage 2, and see exactly how much of a joke the hero classes there really are.), so there really is no balance issue worth discussing there either with 1v1s.
The following elements should also play an important role of determining the outcome of a battle:
Terrain
Weather
Army morale
Team composition/specialization
Weapons (including hand-helded weapons, stationary heavy weapons and siege weapons)
Army overall coordination/strategies/deceptions
Focusing battle objectives (winning conditions)
Treaties between factions (alliances...etc)
Competency of a commander/leader
WAR concentrates itself of the PvP aspects of the genre and will be balanced for just that, PvE is second hand, so I strongly believe that this "problem" will be more or less no problem at all :-).
Reality is merely an illusion, albeit a very persistent one. - " Albert Einstein"
Warhammer fanatic since '85.
Which FF Character Are You?
Balancing 24 classes is a tough job for even Mythic.
Just look at SWG, They had like 33 different classes in that game, but they cut them down to 8-9 core class and thats it.
Wendo, its not that every class should be able to do everything, just that those most crucial of pvp abilities like spell interupts/CC/snares, call them pvp force multipliers, should be worked into every classes repritoire of abilities. A healer is still not going to be on par damage wise with a melee dps class, but on the same note, melees are going to have little/no self/party healing. The classes are still distinct, but have access to the limited pool of pvpcentric abilities that we've all come to know. Hope that clears up what i was saying.
Warhammer fanatic since '85.
Wendo, its not that every class should be able to do everything, just that those most crucial of pvp abilities like spell interupts/CC/snares, call them pvp force multipliers, should be worked into every classes repritoire of abilities. A healer is still not going to be on par damage wise with a melee dps class, but on the same note, melees are going to have little/no self/party healing. The classes are still distinct, but have access to the limited pool of pvpcentric abilities that we've all come to know. Hope that clears up what i was saying. Kk i hear u. Even tough i get where u coming from i peronally always liket classes to be as distinct as possible. The thing that really makes me like mmos is that u have to use the different classes to make different things and by that making a strong unit. I would gladly play a class whit only a lot of debuffing abilitys or somting like that and let my guildmats handle the dmg and the healing and so on
But if we all where the same we wouldent have much to debate and the time to WAR release would feel even longer
Which FF Character Are You?
MMOs Played: EQ 1&2, DAoC, SWG, Planetside, WoW, GW, CoX, DDO, EVE, Vanguard, TR
Playing: WAR
Awaiting 40k Online and wishing for Battletech Online
Warhammer fanatic since '85.
Which FF Character Are You?
1. The Magus pulls off some sort of Chaos control or slow attack, rides his Disk out of range, and pummels the Priest with one last volley of spells.
2. The Priest resists a spell or two and smashes the Magus's face in.
3. The Magus dodges an attack or two and fireballs the Priest in the face.
4. The Magus starts doing enough damage to finish the Priest, but the Priest stuns the Magus and finishes him.
If the two players know how to use thier separate abilities well, the fight can go either way. And, of course if it's not a 1v1, it's entirely different. The Priest might have to deal with a Chosen or a Marauder on the way in, but he might have an Engineer or a Bright Wizard to go toe to toe with the Magus at range.
Let's try a "healer" say, Rune Priest, vs. a Black Orc.
The Black Orc charges the Rune Priest (as Orcs are prone to doing). The Priest uses some manner of damage absorption rune and the Orc's first attack doesn't do much. The Priest responds in kind, attacking with a rune-enhanced weapon. The Orc is tough and armored, has many other attacks, though, and the next few badly injure the dwarf. The Priest heals himself with a rune, but by this point there really isn't any chance of the Priest winning. Here the Priest, a clearly defined grouping class, is beaten by the Black Orc, a devastaing melee solo warrior. Now, if the Orc had to deal with an Ironbreaker here, he'd be in trouble.
From what I've seen of the game so far it looks like it'll be pretty damn balanced. DaoC may not have done that well in its later years, burt Mythic aren't stupid. I somehow doubt they'd take on the monumental task of balancing 32 classes without having some decent plan for it.
Everythings standard pattern! This is the Imperial fething Guard! Standard pattern boots, standard pattern mess tins, standard pattern bodybags! Im a standard pattern infantryman, youre a standard pattern no-neck, and any second now my standard pattern fist is going to send your nose bone back into your very sub-standard pattern brain! Sergeant Ceglan Varl
Warhammer fanatic since '85.
I like and totally agree with mythic Devs and their vision of game balance. I have played classes that where overpowered and lived through nerfs and total 180 directions they have taken classes. In the end , for the sake of game balance I never had a problem with what they did. I guess since I am a little more open minded since I work in the gaming industry I have a non normal look at things.
Some devs you vibe with and like what they call balanced (a priest can only heal and can never deal damage)
Some devs you do not vibe with (priest are nuking machines and can also tank)
I also dont think healers or superhuman warriors are realistic